Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: BnZs on March 22, 2011, 12:06:45 PM
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Some figures I came up with, just for general interest.... :devil
Wing Area Horsepower Weight Wing Loading Power loading
Camel 231 square feet 130 1339@25% fuel 5.8 lbs/foot .097 hp/lb!
Dr.1 201 square feet 110 1235@50% 6.14 .089
D.VII 217 square feet 170(MercedesD.IIIa)2051@50% 9.45 .083
Drag Area Horsepower ratio horsepower/drag area
Camel 8.73 square feet 130 14.9
Dr.1 6.69 110 16.44
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Those numbers seem odd in comparison to performance in AH. The F.1 Camel in AH is a dog compared to the DR.1.
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Those numbers seem odd in comparison to performance in AH. The F.1 Camel in AH is a dog compared to the DR.1.
Yes, this is VERY odd Karnak.
Let's assume most Dr1 drivers are starting out with only 25%, which only gives 13 minutes flight time with 2.0 burn. That means the plane weighs 1205, which gives us the following figures:
Wing Loading Power loading
6 lbs/foot .091 lbs/foot
Still no clear margin of superiority.
Edit: Although I would be happy if I could just get our Camel to spin to the right/do a brisk hammerhead. It will flat plate to the ground like a leaf but not develop much rotation, and the break over the top during the latter maneuver is so agonizingly slow it removes much of its value.
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The numbers don't take into account drag, or wing design/efficiency, or quirks/problems (i.e. not being able to roll one way unless you chop throttle).
Nice when "all things being equal" but in the case of the WW1 planes nothing else is equal to compare it to.
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The numbers don't take into account drag, or wing design/efficiency, or quirks/problems (i.e. not being able to roll one way unless you chop throttle).
Nice when "all things being equal" but in the case of the WW1 planes nothing else is equal to compare it to.
Climb rates and acceleration are almost entirely decided by power/weight, is this not so?
As for turning, yes airfoil cl makes a large difference. Be interesting to compare power-on stall speeds of these two birds, since that is a given indicator.
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And this puts their wingloadings at 6.46lbs/sqft for the Dr.I and 6.30lbs/sqft for the Camel.
Wingloadings with full fuel:
Dr.I: 6.46lbs/sqft
Camel: 6.30lbs/sqft
This is why wingloading figures alone shouldn't used when comparing maneuverability:
A pic depicting the Göttingen 298 used in the Dr.I:
(http://www.hq.nasa.gov/office/pao/History/SP-468/p24.jpg)
The airfoil used in the Camel, third from the top:
(http://www.southsearepublic.org/files/afc/2/sopwith_airfoil.jpg)
Dr.I uses overall much more efficient airfoil which creates more lift in relation to its drag. One thing of course is the interference between wings of the Dr.I and how much it negates this advantage but it doesn't surprise me that Dr.I has a smaller turning radius.
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Climb rates and acceleration are almost entirely decided by power/weight, is this not so?
Not necessarily so in fixed pitch props.
HiTech
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Not necessarily so in fixed pitch props.
HiTech
Ah yes...I've noticed that the Dr1 seems to be closer to its redline RPMs in level flight than the Camel.
That being said, I should like to replace the "cruise" prop on my Camel with a "climb" prop. I'll get to work with the axe and draw-knife immediately...
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Edit: Although I would be happy if I could just get our Camel to spin to the right/do a brisk hammerhead. It will flat plate to the ground like a leaf but not develop much rotation, and the break over the top during the latter maneuver is so agonizingly slow it removes much of its value.
Are you pulling the stick straight back to induce the gyro rotation? I find that it gets around pretty well.
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Are you pulling the stick straight back to induce the gyro rotation? I find that it gets around pretty well.
Straight back, full right rudder, slow. Or get the plane nose up, full stick forward and full left rudder also. It will do a neat hammerhead, but not with the kind of pop you'd expect from the gyro enhancement you are getting. And the spins are singularly non-spinny.
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You probably also want to compare the drag coefficients.
F1 .0378
Dr1 .0323
I've read that while the Dr1 and F1 had similar climb rates the Dr1 climbed at a steeper angle. I haven't made the time to test this in game yet.
I do think the gyro on the F1 is correct since you can almost spin it around in place.
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You probably also want to compare the drag coefficients.
F1 .0378
Dr1 .0323
I've read that while the Dr1 and F1 had similar climb rates the Dr1 climbed at a steeper angle. I haven't made the time to test this in game yet.
I do think the gyro on the F1 is correct since you can almost spin it around in place.
I can't get it into a spin, or at least not a very fast spin, and I only can get rotation to the left in a spin. Repeat, very slow rotation. This is me *trying* to spin. From the manual I read it was supposed to enter a spin un-intentionally when turning to the right with frightening ease. D.VII hammers just as quickly if not more so to *either* direction as the Camel does to the right, presumably taking full advantage of gyro.
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I can't get it into a spin, or at least not a very fast spin, and I only can get rotation to the left in a spin. Repeat, very slow rotation. This is me *trying* to spin. From the manual I read it was supposed to enter a spin un-intentionally when turning to the right with frightening ease. D.VII hammers just as quickly if not more so to *either* direction as the Camel does to the right, presumably taking full advantage of gyro.
these problems such as the DR.I flight modeling, the camel's gyro, etc are why i don't fly there at the moment.
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BnZ,
I'm curious at what alts your trying to do this at?
Have you taken either plane up above 10K and tried this out,I think you'll see a considerable different trying to turn and spin above 10,15k would even be better but it takes forever to climb that high.....
:salute
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I can't get it into a spin, or at least not a very fast spin, and I only can get rotation to the left in a spin. Repeat, very slow rotation. This is me *trying* to spin. From the manual I read it was supposed to enter a spin un-intentionally when turning to the right with frightening ease. D.VII hammers just as quickly if not more so to *either* direction as the Camel does to the right, presumably taking full advantage of gyro.
Sorry I didn't mean that type of spin. I meant the Camel practically pivots when it skids right from the gyro. Of course your momentum isn't going to change directions and flying sideways for a bit while you rotate is a giant air brake so it seems normal that you would have 0 airspeed after a max gyro turn.
Did you mean Dr1 instead of DVII? There isn't much gyro for the DVII to take advantage of.
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Sorry I didn't mean that type of spin. I meant the Camel practically pivots when it skids right from the gyro. Of course your momentum isn't going to change directions and flying sideways for a bit while you rotate is a giant air brake so it seems normal that you would have 0 airspeed after a max gyro turn.
Did you mean Dr1 instead of DVII? There isn't much gyro for the DVII to take advantage of.
Yes I meant DVIII. It hammers at least as easily if not more so than the Camel, and both ways to boot. Try it. Lucy, you got some 'splaining to do...
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Yes I meant DVIII. It hammers at least as easily if not more so than the Camel, and both ways to boot. Try it. Lucy, you got some 'splaining to do...
I assume you mean the DVII not the DVIII. :D
I think I misread you before, apparently you were referring to the Camel gyro, not the DVII using gyro to hammerhead. The DVII does a nice hammerhead but it can't pivot due to gyro like the Camel and Dr1 can.
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The time is the important factor...even using gyro to the hilt it takes a long time to get the Camel to "snap" (snap is a terrible misnomer for such slowness) over. Rather much reduces its utility as a combat maneuver. And if there is a way to get the Camel into any sort of spin to the right, I haven't figured it out.
Should not the snap over happen faster in a plane that has a great deal of gyro as well as rudder to help it?
Occasionally my DVII is modified to a DVIII in flight...
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I don't know how fast the Camel should skid right with gyro but it's faster than it turns left and it's almost returning on the same flight path.
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What Morfiend said, Camel behaves much different at 8k than it does at sea level.
WWI arena needs "something" up at 10k to encourage people to take the time to get up there.
Like a zep perhaps?
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What Morfiend said, Camel behaves much different at 8k than it does at sea level.
WWI arena needs "something" up at 10k to encourage people to take the time to get up there.
Like a zep perhaps?
Incendiary rockets :aok
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*sigh* 5-8K is probably about the average altitude I am attempting spins and other maneuvers. A few thousand feet will not change flight character all that radically anyway. Maybe its a bit early in the morning and I'm irritable, but the bending over backwards to justify why the Camel (or anything in AHII) isn't behaving the way it plainly should gets annoying. The truth remains plain; The Camel could be put into a spin unintentionally while trying to turn right with frightening ease. This contrasts with in-game performance, where the closest thing I can get to a spin is a very slow rotation to the left while the Camel is doing its "falling leaf" act.
FLS: Of course I have noticed that the Dr1 and Camel yaw tremendously under gyro. I have also noticed that this does NOT put them into a spin. It has been noted before that AHII planes in general are notably reluctant to develop rotation about the yaw axis. This may be a sim-wide thing and not peculiar to the Camel modeling, and maybe I can't expect it to change before AHIII, but it should still be taken note of.
Try getting the Camel to do something like this in AHII:
(http://www.mediafire.com/i/?oov810y2o6yhyxr)
http://www.mediafire.com/i/?oov810y2o6yhyxr (http://www.mediafire.com/i/?oov810y2o6yhyxr)
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I find it easy to spin most a/c in AH. The Camel isn't one of them and I don't now how easily it should spin. I've talked to a guy who flies a rotary engine Camel but he doesn't spin it. You can imagine why. :D
The fact that aircraft designed for aerobatics fly differently than WW1 aircraft shouldn't surprise anyone.
Gyroscopic precession creates a yaw force when you rotate the pitch axis up or down. The yaw force is not constant, it only occurs while the pitch change rotates the nose. If you are stalled and falling straight down there is no yaw rotation from precession. If you are yawing with rudder then precession will pitch the nose up or down. This is why I don't see a problem with the Camel torque modeling. It behaves like I expect it to.
As I said I don't know how easily the Camel should spin but I see it as a different issue from the gyroscopic precession.
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As I said I don't know how easily the Camel should spin but I see it as a different issue from the gyroscopic precession.
The aircraft I used to generate the pretty picture is a parasol fighter pulled by a fixed-pitch prop attached to a radial and boasting performance and configuration not too dissimilar to some WWII types :-)
When new pilots were advised to avoid turning right at low altitudes because it throws an airplane into a spin so easily, and we can't make that same aircraft spin by working at it, I'd say that tells us something. Even designs far more spin-resistant than the Camel can be put there by deliberate effort.
And I don't blame the Camel driver you talked to one bit :D
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The aircraft I used to generate the pretty picture is a parasol fighter pulled by a fixed-pitch prop attached to a radial and boasting performance and configuration not too dissimilar to some WWII types :-)
When new pilots were advised to avoid turning right at low altitudes because it throws an airplane into a spin so easily, and we can't make that same aircraft spin by working at it, I'd say that tells us something. Even designs far more spin-resistant than the Camel can be put there by deliberate effort.
And I don't blame the Camel driver you talked to one bit :D
My bad, I glanced at the pic at work and didn't realize it was a sim. :rofl
Just for the sake of argument, assuming the AH Camel is modeled correctly and a right turn could rotate you around until you were below stall speed, which would be a good thing to warn pilots about, might they call that rotation a spin?
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My bad, I glanced at the pic at work and didn't realize it was a sim. :rofl
Just for the sake of argument, assuming the AH Camel is modeled correctly and a right turn could rotate you around until you were below stall speed, which would be a good thing to warn pilots about, might they call that rotation a spin?
When I bank right and simply honk back on the stick in the Camel, it buffets, snap rolls right to some degree, and it goes right back to flying when you release stick pressure.