Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: skagneti on March 23, 2011, 10:06:39 AM
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I have been flying in AH for a couple of years now and never realized I was flying with the stall limiter on until last night in the AvA arena. I turned it off and I was snap rolling my 190 continuously. My understanding is that the stall limiter reduces your maximum aileron control input. The question is does the stall limiter only prevent stalls or does it also limit ability to turn by reducing control movement beyond the threshold of stalling out. I want to know if it is worth relearning to fly with it off. Thanks in advance for any comments/advice.
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shut it off :furious :furious :furious :furious
shut it off shut it off shut it off :aok
two equal sticks in same plane, same load out the one with it off will be at an advantage, he will be able to make his plane do what the one with stall limiter on, wished he could :D
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Its like training wheels for Nancie's. Turn that thing off and get down to bidness.
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Turn off stall limiter, and if you do a lot of turn and burning, turn off combat trim as well. I'd been flying with combat trim always on, and always wondered why some guys could do things I couldn't at low speed. I found out why when I turned it off a couple weeks ago.
Wiley.
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Turn off stall limiter, and if you do a lot of turn and burning, turn off combat trim as well. I'd been flying with combat trim always on, and always wondered why some guys could do things I couldn't at low speed. I found out why when I turned it off a couple weeks ago.
Wiley.
map it to toggle......in a fight shut it off, flying to the fight have it on(combat trim that is)
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Turn it off and stay out of the picker plane too! :P
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I have been flying in AH for a couple of years now and never realized I was flying with the stall limiter on until last night in the AvA arena. I turned it off and I was snap rolling my 190 continuously. My understanding is that the stall limiter reduces your maximum aileron control input. The question is does the stall limiter only prevent stalls or does it also limit ability to turn by reducing control movement beyond the threshold of stalling out. I want to know if it is worth relearning to fly with it off. Thanks in advance for any comments/advice.
Jeeeze, now I gotta fly against you once you master it W/O stall limiter?
My experience is that after a while you adjust and don't notice that it's not on.
As far as combat trim, I have it mapped so I can toggle it off and on.
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map it to toggle......in a fight shut it off, flying to the fight have it on(combat trim that is)
Yeah, forgot to mention that part. :)
Wiley.
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My understanding is that stall limiter only limits your AoA (Angle of Attack) to prevent [mostly] power-on stalls. It doesn't dampen your control sensitivity or speed of movement. I turned my stall limiter off after three sorties. I also have combat trim (plus the actual elevator/aileron trim), and the auto-pilot functions, mapped to my stick to turn on/off whenever I want.
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Off.
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I'd been flying with combat trim always on, and always wondered why some guys could do things I couldn't at low speed. I found out why when I turned it off a couple weeks ago.
Haven't been around AH very long...some guys were saying you should always use Combat Trim, that it helps you retain E by always having you in trim. What are the downsides to Combat Trim?
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If you turn off the stall limiter do you then need to scale your ailerons, elevators and rudder?
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If you turn off the stall limiter do you then need to scale your ailerons, elevators and rudder?
No, you just can't be "hamfisted" with your stick. Fly with a light touch, making small movements - just enough to get the desired result. Scaling/damping may help, and your stick may require a little of each. Only you can determine that, by how you feel while flying without the stall limiter.
Once you've gotten used to flying without stall limiter, you'll be amazed at how little movement you really need and you'll see yourself flying smoothly and gracefully...up to the point where you hit the ground. :D
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My take on it, in cruise or BnZ, it's great for the reasons you stated, Colmbo.
First, a bit on how it works. All combat trim does is reference a table that slides the trim controls to specific spots based on the speed you're at. At 150 mph, the tabs are set here, at 200 mph, they're set to here. It's very smooth, they move every mph or two, I'd guess. These values are pretty close to dead on at full throttle, under light fighter loadout. You'll notice if you're say, missing an aileron, combat trim won't be quite right, the wing with the missing aileron will drop due to decreased lift. You can still manually trim that out if desired, but because combat trim assumes a whole plane, it's slightly out of whack at that point. Another easy to see example is take off a 109K4, get it off the ground and climbing out with no autopilot on, but combat trim on, and hit WEP. The added torque (or processional whatzit, basically the force that causes the plane to want to roll due to the airflow coming off the prop) causes the plane to roll to the left with combat trim on. It's not that the trims are at their maximum deflection, it's just that combat trim doesn't take that force into account, probably by design so it's not too perfect under all circumstances.
What I discovered, at least in my hands, is when I get into a lower speed fight, if I'm riding the stall, the inputs are changing as my speed changes due to combat trim, even though the stick is stationary. A good illustration of what I'm talking about is, get up some speed in your favorite plane with combat trim on, and pull straight vertical, try to get it down to 0 IAS before the nose drops. Then try it with combat trim off.
In my experience, it's nearly impossible to do with combat trim on, trivial with combat trim off. That same logic applies to stall fighting. You can turn more smoothly at low speeds because your controls aren't getting those little adjustments as your speed changes. Made a lot of planes I had trouble turning well with much much better under 150IAS.
I personally take off with combat trim on, I find some planes, in particular most of the 109s try to drag the left wing when you roll under WEP with it off.
Wiley.
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If you turn off the stall limiter do you then need to scale your ailerons, elevators and rudder?
You don't technically need to but you may want to. I scale my elevator and rudder axis so I have a more fine control over what they're doing.
Haven't been around AH very long...some guys were saying you should always use Combat Trim, that it helps you retain E by always having you in trim. What are the downsides to Combat Trim?
Being in trim is generally a good thing. If the plane is trimmed out it does reduce the workload on the pilot a bit because you don't have to make corrections with the stick to line up a shot for instance.
What I don't like about combat trim is the plane retrimming when I'm working the flaps which I have to do a lot of in the 38. I also find it harder to control at high AoA and low speeds so I usually just leave it off in the P-38 (which only has pitch axis to worry about anyway). I do have it mapped to a button on my throttle and I tend to toggle it off and on when I'm flying other planes. Combat Trim is also designed to get you close but not 100% hands off level flight, you may notice that under some conditions with CT on the plane may still want to pitch up a little for example.
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stall limiter feels like it does if you have one elevator missing
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off, so that when i stall out i get shot and my :ahand
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As for stall limiter my take on it is, that it's better to turn it off (when is a more subjective question to me). If the goal is to get the most performance out of your airplane then stall limiter will stop that, it's a brick wall in the flight envelope that you can't get past. With it off a player will at first have some difficulty and likely a little frustration while they relearn the control inputs needed to achieve the desired results but the difference is that eventually they will make the adjustment and when they do they will now be able to move past that barrier and explore the full flight envelope of the aircraft.
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Turn it off and stay out of the picker plane too! :P
But I love to pick! :lol :lol
Turn it off and set your elevator axis to 1 or slightly less than 1 to 1. If you leave it at default you will lose lift or stall out fast from yanking the stick. I set my stick to trim everything and then quickly go back to combat trim.
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Sounds like I have to take the training wheels ,that I didn't even know I had, off now. Not that I care much about what my score is, but I can tell you that relearning, and the failures sure to come with it are going to make me a ripe target for a while. Oh well a briefly bruised ego for the potential of greater future performance sounds like a good deal to me. Thanks for all of the input.
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Sounds like I have to take the training wheels ,that I didn't even know I had, off now. Not that I care much about what my score is, but I can tell you that relearning, and the failures sure to come with it are going to make me a ripe target for a while. Oh well a briefly bruised ego for the potential of greater future performance sounds like a good deal to me. Thanks for all of the input.
Throw that ego out the door! You won't learn nothing playing it safe. I see the best pilots on the deck duking it out with 3 or 4 opponents.
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Sounds like I have to take the training wheels ,that I didn't even know I had, off now. Not that I care much about what my score is, but I can tell you that relearning, and the failures sure to come with it are going to make me a ripe target for a while. Oh well a briefly bruised ego for the potential of greater future performance sounds like a good deal to me. Thanks for all of the input.
Yep there will probably be some gnashing of teeth and choice words hurled at the computer monitor while you make the adjustment but it will start falling back into place before long. Shoot me a PM if you want and we can set aside some time and head to the TA, w/out any gun damage we can fly some 1v1's w/out the long flight to and from.
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Flew years with it on, tried turning it off and struggled with crashes. Eventually got OK but took a break from the game. After coming back, was crashing more than ever and turned it back on. Yes, call me a nancy, but now the ground is of minor concern in a fight. And if I beat you, you probably suck real bad. :lol
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What are the downsides to Combat Trim?
Combat trim has a negative effect on flaps, which is why it's recommended on planes that are flap dependent not to use combat trim.
ack-ack
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OFF..
In the long run it will open more for you.. Tweak your controller sliders too.
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A long time ago (before I was a Trainer), I brought a player into the TA to help show him the P38. I soundly beat him, particularly at slow speeds, he just couldn't get the angles. Finally, I asked him if he had stall limiter on and he said, "Yes, it makes the P38 feel more realistic." I told him that even flying at his very best, he could still lose fights to someone with it off in certain situations.
Instead of taking my advice and turning it off, now all he does is fly bombers or fast rides and never getting slow enough to have the stall limiter affect him. You don't want to end up like that...
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first things first, you are going to stall a lot, and I mean a lot. but once you get used to it and know the feel of your plane you will turn a little better than others. but if you mostly use the dive and run acm it wont matter.
semp
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All other things being equal, a pilot flying without the stall limiter will beat the pilot with the stall limiter every single fight.
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OFF
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Haven't been around AH very long...some guys were saying you should always use Combat Trim, that it helps you retain E by always having you in trim. What are the downsides to Combat Trim?
In Aces High, at least for those without force-feedback sticks, stick travel equates to pull force in a real plane. Trim (such as up trim) just works like in a real plane by biasing what the netural point of stick pull results in as well as giving you (again for up trim) more up elevator deflection at any given amount of stick pull force.
I don't find any performance advantage to combat trim off as long as I can generate enough stick force to give a stall or blackout (i.e., I don't need more elevator authority). There are some limited cases where you can pull the stick all the way back and not black out or stall, such as in a 109 at high speed as one example. In that case, adding some up trim with the stick full back will allow you to pull more g's than with combat trim on and the stick full back.
Combat trim off would mean that your neutral point isn't changing as your speed changes, thus perhaps giving you some element of feel that some folks might prefer during a fight compared to having combat trim on. Combat trim on, though, is just like contantly retrimming the plane as your speed changes; so it might be that some folks prefer the feel of that.
Me, I fly with it on unless I'm yanking full back and need more elevator authority, then I crank in some up trim temporarily (then back to combat trim).
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Combat trim has a negative effect on flaps, which is why it's recommended on planes that are flap dependent not to use combat trim.
ack-ack
Ack-Ack, how so? Trying to learn here. I've always left mt CT on, but maybe I shouldn't.
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Combat trim has a negative effect on flaps, which is why it's recommended on planes that are flap dependent not to use combat trim.
ack-ack
What kind of negative effect? I've noticed there is a pronounced pitch up with flap extension if CT is on.
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I have been flying in AH for a couple of years now and never realized I was flying with the stall limiter on until last night in the AvA arena. I turned it off and I was snap rolling my 190 continuously. My understanding is that the stall limiter reduces your maximum aileron control input. The question is does the stall limiter only prevent stalls or does it also limit ability to turn by reducing control movement beyond the threshold of stalling out. I want to know if it is worth relearning to fly with it off. Thanks in advance for any comments/advice.
AoA. if it limits anything, it should limit elevator. i dunno how it works though....i've never had it on.
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Jeeeze, now I gotta fly against you once you master it W/O stall limiter?
My experience is that after a while you adjust and don't notice that it's not on.
As far as combat trim, I have it mapped so I can toggle it off and on.
ya don't really need to map combat trim......it will automatically turn off if you hit any trim function at all.
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off :aok
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If you turn off the stall limiter do you then need to scale your ailerons, elevators and rudder?
depends on what's comfortble for you.
i used to have my stuff scaled......took a six month break from the game....came back, and was...to be honest......just too dam lazy to scale anything. i seem to do much better now.....'cept fighting guys like shuffler down in the weeds while hanging on the props.......then i kinda sorta fall outta the air while he laughs at me. :noid
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What kind of negative effect? I've noticed there is a pronounced pitch up with flap extension if CT is on.
Exactly the problem. With your flaps extended, you have greater lift. Combat trim only (I believe) looks at speed. So flaps give you more lift (but also increases drag which brings your speed down a bit), combat trim sees a drop in airspeed and trims your nose up (to take the back pressure off your stick) because it thinks it needs to keep your nose up to adjust for the lower speed, and the result is you balooning into a steep climb. At very high or very low speeds, the CT has (or causes) trouble.
If you use flaps during landing, you should turn off CT and trim manually. Otherwise, the chances of balooning up and stalling increases and you may very well pancake onto the runway.
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off :cheers:
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Off, Used to fly with it on. But this is what happened each time I fought someone with it off 1v1: :ahand
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I fly with both on and have little problem getting the desired results when I'm having a good day.
I'm a crappy pilot and I'm not saying that for laughs. I don't want to take the time to learn all the little crap about every plane in the game and that's fine. I pay the price for it by not having an uber super duper awesome KDR to show my mommy.... -_- (But this just makes it better when I shoot someone down in game).
BUT, I see little change when off and on. Off I just tend to stall out and eat with the squirrels more often.
The only way someone in game gets shot down by me is:
1) I'm in a buff (don't even think about touching my plane).
2) THEY'RE in a buff (And I've decided to be patient and not go dead six)
3) They screw up - bad.
With this being said I get enough kills to keep the game fun and give myself something to laugh at because being as poorly skilled in this as I am, it feels good to go in and send planes spiraling to the ground.
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I fly with Combat trim on. If I turn Combat trim off during a dogfight do I have to constantly trim my plane or can I just concentrate on the fight?
Thanks,
gus
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I fly with Combat trim on. If I turn Combat trim off during a dogfight do I have to constantly trim my plane or can I just concentrate on the fight?
Thanks,
gus
during a dogfight, i've never had to re-trim the plane.
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Little do you guys know that you have given information to Colmbo that will certainly lead to your virtual deaths many times over.
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just gives them a reason to get better.
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Anything that leads to a more capable opponent is ok in my world, particularly when it's something that involves fighting with your PC/setup instead of outflying your opponent. :)
Wiley.
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Little do you guys know that you have given information to Colmbo that will certainly lead to your virtual deaths many times over.
better fihghts then. :aok
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Keep the stall limiter (found in options) OFF and the stall eliminator (speed) up.
True we're helping him kill us but where would any of us be if nobody helped us learn the game?
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Manual trim up has saved me on more than a few P-38 compressions :aok
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Keep the stall limiter (found in options) OFF and the stall eliminator (speed) up.
True we're helping him kill us but where would any of us be if nobody helped us learn the game?
Here we go again.....speed has nothing to do with a stall.
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Manual trim up has saved me on more than a few P-38 compressions :aok
throttle control is super important. also, slip when you're diving.....keep speed below compression.
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Manual trim up has saved me on more than a few P-38 compressions :aok
If you get into a compressability state in a P-38, you messed up.
ack-ack
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If you get into a compressability state in a P-38, you messed up.
ack-ack
Most definitely. I don't "go in" intending to compress. Usually:
A) I haven't flown the 38 in a while and halfway down I have the ole "Oh, scheisse!" moment.
2) Blood alcohol level is elevated - see A) response above.
c) "Oh look, a flight of AR234's just took off!" and I greedily dive in resulting in similar to A)
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I really enjoyed this thread and learned alot. May not be the whole reason I die alot, in fact there are probably dozens, but I have decided to try flying without and see if over time I am able to compete better in those one on ones.
I usually fly the 190 and 109 models. Does anyone have any comments on how taking the stall limiter off may effect these planes. I tried it off for a day or two when I was flying the 190 a lot and found that the stalls (particularly in the A8) were particularly vicious.
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Sounds like I have to take the training wheels ,that I didn't even know I had, off now. but I can tell you that relearning, and the failures sure to come with it are going to make me a ripe target for a while.
Good decision, cause , no offence, but no matter HOW good anyone gets with stall limiter ON, they ARE a RIPE target! =) Its real easy to tell when someone has it on, like its there 1st lesson in a cessna and the instructor is tellin them to ease back on the yolk, EASE back.....
elfy
re: combat trim...someone posted aboot having CT off during the fight (fine) and never having to trim during the fight and never havin any problems. Thats fine if the entire fight takes place in the weeds/ low speed, cause trim needs are Not changing. BUT if you engage at 12k at high speed and the fight works its way all the way down to the trees , hangin on the props and you have Never trimmed during all this, and CT is OFF, YOU are WAY outta trim and will die to someone payin attention=)
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OFF
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I usually fly the 190 and 109 models. Does anyone have any comments on how taking the stall limiter off may effect these planes. I tried it off for a day or two when I was flying the 190 a lot and found that the stalls (particularly in the A8) were particularly vicious.
But what you can't visualize as easily is that your were also getting more performance out of the aircraft. Leave it off -- it will steepen the learning curve for a short while but is well worth it. And remember, all of us R/L pilots never had a "stall limiter" and most of us lived through the learning. <G>
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Here we go again.....speed has nothing to do with a stall.
Well, if you could keep the speed high enough you can prevent a stall since the wing will fail before reaching the stall AOA.
You can't say airspeed has nothing to do with stalling since airspeed is vital to create lift in a fix winged aircraft -- everything is tied together -- similar to the pitch for speed/power for altitude thing. It is vitally important that folks realize you can stall at nearly any airspeed and that AOA is the most important factor.
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But what you can't visualize as easily is that your were also getting more performance out of the aircraft. Leave it off -- it will steepen the learning curve for a short while but is well worth it. And remember, all of us R/L pilots never had a "stall limiter" and most of us lived through the learning. <G>
Well, how about that - I just went to remove my stall limiter and found that I already had it off :x So I have probably been flying these last six months or so without it and never new :O the good news is that I know how to fly without it (apparently), the bad news is that now I don't have an excuse for my crappy flying. Oh well, I still had the combat trim on, so I took that off and I will see how that goes.
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Well, if you could keep the speed high enough you can prevent a stall since the wing will fail before reaching the stall AOA.
You can't say airspeed has nothing to do with stalling since airspeed is vital to create lift in a fix winged aircraft -- everything is tied together -- similar to the pitch for speed/power for altitude thing. It is vitally important that folks realize you can stall at nearly any airspeed and that AOA is the most important factor.
you should stall test our aircraft. the ones i've flown, can and will stall even at cruise speed.
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BUT if you engage at 12k at high speed and the fight works its way all the way down to the trees , hangin on the props and you have Never trimmed during all this, and CT is OFF, YOU are WAY outta trim and will die to someone payin attention=)
Nope. I only use manual trim and trim the elelvators slightly below neutral at 300mph IAS and I leave it there, never touching it after I set it. While at slower speeds I might be slightly out of trim, it does not effect my flying at all nor does it put someone flying with CT on at slow speeds in a turn fight with me at any advantage over me.
ack-ack
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AckAck do you do that for any plane you fly?
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AckAck do you do that for any plane you fly?
Yes, with the sole exception being the B-25H as I keep that trimmed rather nose heavy.
ack-ack
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AOA is the most important factor.
I believe this was his point.
- oldman
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Nope. I only use manual trim and trim the elelvators slightly below neutral at 300mph IAS and I leave it there, never touching it after I set it. While at slower speeds I might be slightly out of trim, it does not effect my flying at all nor does it put someone flying with CT on at slow speeds in a turn fight with me at any advantage over me.
ack-ack
Simply fly at 15k at 400mph level, CT ON and note where the trim marks are.Now fly at 75mph at 20ft level, CT ON and note where the trim marks are. They are NOT in the same place. The trim has CHANGED FOR YOU. The CT decides where proper trim is and CT has decided that correct trim is very different at these two extremes. The difference between the two,if not dealt with, is the amount you will be OUT of TRIM if you change nothing. Of course, if you fly something with NO tourque, its much less likely to matter. If you do nothing but the same thing over and over and over,( BnZ from a perch) ,its much less likely to matter. To say that a severely out of trim plane(as determined by the computer) is at no disadvantage to a properly trimmed plane (as determined by the computer) is an entertaining statement . But again, you will ONLY notice if you fly a fighter with torque, from one edge of envelope to the other at the extremes. Watch some films of fighters actually furballing to see what its like.
So stick that Nope in yer B38 :neener:
elfy
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Simply fly at 15k at 400mph level, CT ON and note where the trim marks are.Now fly at 75mph at 20ft level, CT ON and note where the trim marks are. They are NOT in the same place. The trim has CHANGED FOR YOU. The CT decides where proper trim is and CT has decided that correct trim is very different at these two extremes. The difference between the two,if not dealt with, is the amount you will be OUT of TRIM if you change nothing. Of course, if you fly something with NO tourque, its much less likely to matter. If you do nothing but the same thing over and over and over,( BnZ from a perch) ,its much less likely to matter. To say that a severely out of trim plane(as determined by the computer) is at no disadvantage to a properly trimmed plane (as determined by the computer) is an entertaining statement . But again, you will ONLY notice if you fly a fighter with torque, from one edge of envelope to the other at the extremes. Watch some films of fighters actually furballing to see what its like.
So stick that Nope in yer B38 :neener:
elfy
torque does not effect the AoA.
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after my break and reinstalling of game... i alsmot dried cause i forgot about stall limiter...it was night and day, couldnt fly with the damn thing on, turned it off right after my first sortie.
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Always flew with it on & accepted the restrictions that come with such a decision.
It never detracted from having some great fights when in the most update neglected & underrated plane in the game the 205.
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torque does not effect the AoA.
Never once mentioned anything aboot AoA being effected since they have nothing to do with each other. :headscratch:
Sorry, but if theres a contributing point to your comment, I missed it=)
elfy
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READ the last statement of the post i quoted.
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READ the last statement of the post i quoted.
this?Simply fly at 15k at 400mph level, CT ON and note where the trim marks are.Now fly at 75mph at 20ft level, CT ON and note where the trim marks are. They are NOT in the same place. The trim has CHANGED FOR YOU. The CT decides where proper trim is and CT has decided that correct trim is very different at these two extremes. The difference between the two,if not dealt with, is the amount you will be OUT of TRIM if you change nothing. Of course, if you fly something with NO tourque, its much less likely to matter. If you do nothing but the same thing over and over and over,( BnZ from a perch) ,its much less likely to matter. To say that a severely out of trim plane(as determined by the computer) is at no disadvantage to a properly trimmed plane (as determined by the computer) is an entertaining statement . But again, you will ONLY notice if you fly a fighter with torque, from one edge of envelope to the other at the extremes. Watch some films of fighters actually furballing to see what its like.
So stick that Nope in yer B38 :neener:
elfy
or this?Well, if you could keep the speed high enough you can prevent a stall since the wing will fail before reaching the stall AOA.
You can't say airspeed has nothing to do with stalling since airspeed is vital to create lift in a fix winged aircraft -- everything is tied together -- similar to the pitch for speed/power for altitude thing. It is vitally important that folks realize you can stall at nearly any airspeed and that AOA is the most important factor.
either way, whats your point? I never mentioned anything aboot AoA OR stalling.Spit it out. elfy
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Two planes
One with combat trim and the other manually trimmed.
Level chase in same model planes.......
Will one have less drag than the other?
What about a climb chase?
Just wondering.
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Let me ask a possibly very stupid question.
Someone mentioned above, that manual trim can increase the turning performance at very low speeds (with flaps). Im flying with a mouse so there are no stick feedback for me. I just noticed that the trim adjust the center position of the control surfaces (thats why we dont need to apply rudder all the time). But at slow speeds, the plane can reach the stall soon, and if i trim "up", it will stall the same (by sense) but i dont have to pull the mouse as much back. Yes, im able to pull the elevators way more up, but if i already reach the stall earlyer, it seems useless.
So whats the point in trimming up at very low speeds? Better snaprolls maybe?
:salute
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this?or this?either way, whats your point? I never mentioned anything aboot AoA OR stalling.Spit it out. elfy
in one instance, you mentioned "keep your speed high enough to avoid the stall, when speed has nothing to do with a stall.
in the other one, you mentioned "if you fly something with no torque" you'll be less likely to notice.
the only time you're gonna notice "out of trim" is in straight and level(possibly diving too) flight. in combat, you won't notice it, nor will adjusting any of your trims give you an advantage in a dogfight.
on the other hand, should you leave combat trim on, and get into a slow fight, you more than likely will find it to be working against you.