Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: trax1 on March 30, 2011, 07:25:03 PM
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Has anybody seen this story, the pilot of a US Airways flight was making his pre-flight inspection Monday when he noticed a bullet hole in the fuselage, and I guess it looks like the bullet strike came from above the plane & not from below, I mean you'd think that it was someone shooting at the plane from the ground but it doesn't look like thats what happen.
My grandparents use to have a house just a few miles from O'hare airport in Chicago and we'd always have jets flying fairly low over the house all the time & I always thought about that, that if someone wanted to they could easily shoot the plane from there backyard.
http://abcnews.go.com/US/bullet-hole-found-us-airways-plane/story?id=13247926 (http://abcnews.go.com/US/bullet-hole-found-us-airways-plane/story?id=13247926)
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just a theory... maybe someone shot a round into the air and it happened to have come down on the airliner> :noid :bolt:
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just a theory... maybe someone shot a round into the air and it happened to have come down on the airliner> :noid :bolt:
More than likely what happened. Not too long ago, we had an police officer nearly get hit with a round that fell from the sky. Came through his roof and right through his laptop, while he was doing a report on it. He wasn't injured, fortunately.
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Correct me if I'm wrong, but, I would think that a bullet falling at terminal velocity would not have enough energy to go through a roof. If someone could explain how that would be possible, I'm seriously interested to know.
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Trajectory.
A bullet doesn't just go up, turn around, and fall. See picture:
(http://www.math.cornell.edu/~numb3rs/kostyuk/109%281%29.png)
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Correct me if I'm wrong, but, I would think that a bullet falling at terminal velocity would not have enough energy to go through a roof. If someone could explain how that would be possible, I'm seriously interested to know.
oh its been done before, someone shot a bullet into the air on newyears day in las vegas and 5 miles away a plane was hit with it and it went all the way thru the roof (i dont remember how long ago) so yes, its possible to have it happen but not very likely.
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Correct me if I'm wrong, but, I would think that a bullet falling at terminal velocity would not have enough energy to go through a roof. If someone could explain how that would be possible, I'm seriously interested to know.
a 150-200gr .30 caliber bullet certainly has enough energy to punch through a typical roof of a house. A few layers of shingles and a 1/2 to 3/4 in piece of plywood wont stop a bullet that heavy dropped from a few thousand feet high. A wee bit of tin and/or aluminum is not going to stop much from puncturing it.
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Trajectory.
A bullet doesn't just go up, turn around, and fall. See picture:
(http://www.math.cornell.edu/~numb3rs/kostyuk/109%281%29.png)
agreed, but it wouldnt have been fired at 30 degrees, more like 85-5 degrees, if not straight up, no?
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They news did report a shooting range about 7 miles from the airport.
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agreed, but it wouldnt have been fired at 30 degrees, more like 85-5 degrees, if not straight up, no?
That was just a random picture I found online, but the same physics applies to it regardless of angle (except for 90 degrees). Btw, it's been a long time since high school physics, so anyone feel free to correct me. In theory, a bullet shot strait up would come to a stop, then fall strait back down, but that's just not plausible. Factors like human error and wind make that perfect shot nearly impossible. Even at a very steep angle, like 85 degrees, it would still follow that parabolic trajectory.
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There is no real idea about where the plane was when it was hit. It didn't have to happen in mid flight. It could have been hit on the ground, on take off or landing. There is no idea of the trajectory of the slug because of that either. If there were tall buildings near the airport the plane flew from it could been have been lower than the firearm when hit.
This is going to be very tough to pin down so it would be better to wait for the investigation to conclude or run down rather than speculate on it.
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I really don't think it matters if we speculate on it, I doubt anyone is looking for answers in our forums.
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When I lived in Ft. Wayne many years ago, a gradeschool aged girl was killed on New Year's eve by a bullet fired into the air. It struck her directly in the top of her head and killed her instantly. It isn't terminal velocity that's the problem, it's general velocity. Remember that a bullet is leaving the barrel much faster than terminal velocity, and it is going to drop due to gravity long before it loses speed to just terminal. Like Jayhawk said, it's trajectory. Terminal velocity would only apply in the strict sense if the bullet were dropped from overhead, with an initial starting speed of 0. Ballistics can have some weird (and non-intuitive) effects.
In fact, the Allies had a terminal velocity (kinetic) ordinance that looked like a miniature bomb about an inch or so long, made from about 1 oz of steel. It was scattered from high altitude aircraft and designed to do damage over a broad area against personnel and soft targets. It was not fired from a gun, but depended on the speed it picked up from being dropped from a great height. I don't have any data on how effective they were, but I wouldn't want to be under 'em. Even a regular bullet, if high enough caliber, can do a lot of damage even at just terminal velocity.
From personal experience, the living history village I volunteered at North of Phoenix (Pioneer Village) was on the other side of a low mountain range from the Ben Avery shooting range. One day the USMC decided to let rip at the range with a few M2's (.50 caliber for those who don't know) The rounds arced over the mountain after hitting their targets (we assumed, as we figured even jarheads wouldn't be dumb enough to fire M2's into the air near a populated area), and strafed the village. We had to take shelter, and afterwards, repair a lot of holes in roofs, wagons, and other outdoor displays. A year later we were still finding spent bullets in the ground when digging for any reason, some as deep as 4 inches of packed dirt.
I can easily believe the bullet came from a gun fired into the air for whatever reason.
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oh its been done before, someone shot a bullet into the air on newyears day in las vegas and 5 miles away a plane was hit with it and it went all the way thru the roof (i dont remember how long ago) so yes, its possible to have it happen but not very likely.
Was Santa Claus shooting at the Tooth fairy?
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I have a bullet ricochet impact the left wing of my Cirrus 20 back in Jan of 07. Was way out on thewingtip - I marked the area of impact and looked for any delamination. That was 1600 hours ago - spot has not changed.
The toejamty part is, my wife found it while she was degreasing the belly.
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When I lived in Ft. Wayne many years ago, a gradeschool aged girl was killed on New Year's eve by a bullet fired into the air. It struck her directly in the top of her head and killed her instantly. It isn't terminal velocity that's the problem, it's general velocity. Remember that a bullet is leaving the barrel much faster than terminal velocity, and it is going to drop due to gravity long before it loses speed to just terminal. Like Jayhawk said, it's trajectory. Terminal velocity would only apply in the strict sense if the bullet were dropped from overhead, with an initial starting speed of 0. Ballistics can have some weird (and non-intuitive) effects.
A round fired into the air would still come under basic kinematics. Once it has left the barrel by about 5-6 inches there is nothing acting on it to accelerate it any further. At that point it is in free fall with an initial positive (and very fast) velocity in the vertical direction. It will be acted on with a downward force (gravity) and once it reaches v=0 (its peak) it will start going down. It will continue to accelerate downwards until it reaches terminal. I honestly cannot say, but it is my guess the the Terminal Velocity of a bullet is very high and may not even be reached in free fall when fired from a gun (read: Terminal may be higher then muzzle velocity). Then again that part is speculation and I cannot verify it unless given numbers. Also, lateral velocity does not effect vertical velocity and they are two separate components. (At least in a vacuum, cannot recall if also holds true in an atmospheric enviroment)
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They did a mythbusters episode on this very topic.
Turns out that if you shoot straight up, the bullet's terminal velocity is not lethal.
If you fire at an angle, the 'terminal velocity' doesn't apply, as it's following a trajectory with more 'controlled' flight.
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The night they hung sadaam there was a lot of gunfire into the air. When I got back to my bed a ak round managed to go through the roof of my container. I call this myth plausible.
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One thing has been overlooked here which may be causing some confusion. The plane was most likely banking when it was struck, thus exposing the top of the plane.
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I have a bullet ricochet impact the left wing of my Cirrus 20 back in Jan of 07. Was way out on thewingtip - I marked the area of impact and looked for any delamination. That was 1600 hours ago - spot has not changed.
The toejamty part is, my wife found it while she was degreasing the belly.
You have a composite wing, the bullet did not cause any cracks inside? Plastic can't just bent like metal.
Any idea where the bullet came from or what size was it?
Did you know when it hit you or did you discover it in the preflight?
Did you have to do any useless FAA paper work on it? FAR does not say anything about bullet hits.
Sorry I'm asking a lot of questions, you just surprised the hell out of me.
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They did a mythbusters episode on this very topic.
Turns out that if you shoot straight up, the bullet's terminal velocity is not lethal.
If you fire at an angle, the 'terminal velocity' doesn't apply, as it's following a trajectory with more 'controlled' flight.
mythbusters is very sketchy at times. I dont believe all all the answers they come up with. Some of their answers are wrong.
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What was the angle of entry? If it happened midair the angle cannot be perpendicular to the surface because the speed of the plane is about as fast as the bullet from small arms. The bullet itself need no energy to do damage - it cound be just hanging in midair and the plane slams into it at 0.85-0.9 Mach, but the entry point would be infront or at a very shallow angle, almost parallel to the sides of the plane.
If there is an entry and exit holes and close to a perpendicular entry angle and must have happened in mid-air then it could be a meteorite.
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What was the angle of entry? If it happened midair the angle cannot be perpendicular to the surface because the speed of the plane is about as fast as the bullet from small arms. The bullet itself need no energy to do damage - it cound be just hanging in midair and the plane slams into it at 0.85-0.9 Mach, but the entry point would be infront or at a very shallow angle, almost parallel to the sides of the plane.
If there is an entry and exit holes and close to a perpendicular entry angle and must have happened in mid-air then it could be a meteorite.
All your questions are answered in the story, and no, it was not a meteorite.
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Here in Birmingham, AL the Air National Guard units do their FOD walk down the flight line and the taxi ways each morning and in the course of a year they fill up at least a 5 gallon bucket with bullets that are shot from the surrounding neighborhood where BHM airport is located. Many aircraft are shot at as they come in to land as well as the hood rats shooting up home boys and such.
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mythbusters is very sketchy at times. I dont believe all all the answers they come up with. Some of their answers are wrong.
In this case they clearly stated that if a bullet is shot straight up it can't kill the shooter or anyone standing next to him because the bullet will start to tumble on its way down and has no energy for it. They also said that if a bullet is shot at much less angle than 90° as often witnessed in tv news, someone may get shot as a result. A 45° angle would be a recipe for a long distance kill - and you see that happen all the time while some idiot is shooting from a car window etc. while celebrating.
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When I lived in Ft. Wayne many years ago, a gradeschool aged girl was killed on New Year's eve by a bullet fired into the air. It struck her directly in the top of her head and killed her instantly. It isn't terminal velocity that's the problem, it's general velocity. Remember that a bullet is leaving the barrel much faster than terminal velocity, and it is going to drop due to gravity long before it loses speed to just terminal. Like Jayhawk said, it's trajectory. Terminal velocity would only apply in the strict sense if the bullet were dropped from overhead, with an initial starting speed of 0. Ballistics can have some weird (and non-intuitive) effects.
In fact, the Allies had a terminal velocity (kinetic) ordinance that looked like a miniature bomb about an inch or so long, made from about 1 oz of steel. It was scattered from high altitude aircraft and designed to do damage over a broad area against personnel and soft targets. It was not fired from a gun, but depended on the speed it picked up from being dropped from a great height. I don't have any data on how effective they were, but I wouldn't want to be under 'em. Even a regular bullet, if high enough caliber, can do a lot of damage even at just terminal velocity.
From personal experience, the living history village I volunteered at North of Phoenix (Pioneer Village) was on the other side of a low mountain range from the Ben Avery shooting range. One day the USMC decided to let rip at the range with a few M2's (.50 caliber for those who don't know) The rounds arced over the mountain after hitting their targets (we assumed, as we figured even jarheads wouldn't be dumb enough to fire M2's into the air near a populated area), and strafed the village. We had to take shelter, and afterwards, repair a lot of holes in roofs, wagons, and other outdoor displays. A year later we were still finding spent bullets in the ground when digging for any reason, some as deep as 4 inches of packed dirt.
I can easily believe the bullet came from a gun fired into the air for whatever reason.
Crazy and lucky nobody was hurt.
A navy seabee buddy had found some old M2 ammo that had sat a long time and got permission to fire it off at the range.
After only a quick burst, it was apparent that there were tracers involved but it was too late......the targets started burning fiercly.
There was no water anywhere near the targets and they were done by the time help arrived.
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Crazy and lucky nobody was hurt.
Did you read the part where the girl was killed instantly?
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It depends on the bullet. Different bullets will reach different terminal velocities. However, something like a .30 caliber 150gr bullet will hurt if it hits you on the head, but will not kill you.
All the examples talking about people getting killed have no clue as to what angle and distance those bullets were fired at.
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It depends on the bullet. Different bullets will reach different terminal velocities. However, something like a .30 caliber 150gr bullet will hurt if it hits you on the head, but will not kill you.
All the examples talking about people getting killed have no clue as to what angle and distance those bullets were fired at.
this
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One of my radio buddies in the mid 70's was a professional pilot, single and dual engine small planes. He was the "air taxi" for the huge pharmaceutical firm in the area, shuttling emergency medical supplies and firm bigshots from here to there.
He HATED flyting over East St. Louis, IL and the St. Louis air traffic controllers almost always vectored him over that city when he was inbound. He most always heard gunfire, especially at night and his plane was hit numerous times. One bullet hit the in-wing gas tank and he was lucky it didn't catch fire. That made him have to stay an extra couple of days until it was repaired.
Truth of the thread: yes, there are morons and prettythanghats that fire at private and commercial aircraft because they think it's funny. If it's not already a federal crime it should be...then again gangbangers could care less.
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It is a federal crime. They will go to jail as a terrorist.
Its also a federal crime to shine laser lights at airplanes.
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Its also a federal crime to shine laser lights at airplanes.
Yep, and that is a testimony to how stupid and irrationally scared we all are. All it took was some rumor that it hit a pilots eye and he got injured. What a joke :rofl
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In this case they clearly stated that if a bullet is shot straight up it can't kill the shooter or anyone standing next to him because the bullet will start to tumble on its way down and has no energy for it. They also said that if a bullet is shot at much less angle than 90° as often witnessed in tv news, someone may get shot as a result. A 45° angle would be a recipe for a long distance kill - and you see that happen all the time while some idiot is shooting from a car window etc. while celebrating.
makes sense :aok
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The night they hung sadaam there was a lot of gunfire into the air. When I got back to my bed a ak round managed to go through the roof of my container. I call this myth plausible.
So I don't hijack the other thread more, I've got some questions.
I by no means want to doubt that M2 manual, but does it claim the bullet falls at terminal velocity? I would imagine an object could loose it's most aerodynamic path (tumble) but still be above it's terminal velocity.
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Truth of the thread: yes, there are morons and prettythanghats that fire at private and commercial aircraft because they think it's funny. If it's not already a federal crime it should be...then again gangbangers could care less.
I used to go on ride-alongs with a family friend that was one of the fire chiefs who was at the time assigned to a station in South Central. If we weren't racing to save their life one day they'd be shooting at us as we sped by to save another's the day before or after.
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Yep, and that is a testimony to how stupid and irrationally scared we all are. All it took was some rumor that it hit a pilots eye and he got injured. What a joke :rofl
There's more to it than one rumor. The lasers in question aren't the little pointers but rather big green industrial lasers. These can and will do damage and there is NO reason to point them at airplanes. You're well off the mark Dedalos including numbers. Hundreds of these incidents have occurred and they are taken very seriously by the FBI.
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Crazy and lucky nobody was hurt.
A navy seabee buddy had found some old M2 ammo that had sat a long time and got permission to fire it off at the range.
After only a quick burst, it was apparent that there were tracers involved but it was too late......the targets started burning fiercly.
There was no water anywhere near the targets and they were done by the time help arrived.
I thought that tracer rounds had a special mark. Wouldn't you notice that some of the rounds were different colors? Or were they all tracers?
-Penguin
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There's more to it than one rumor. The lasers in question aren't the little pointers but rather big green industrial lasers. These can and will do damage and there is NO reason to point them at airplanes. You're well off the mark Dedalos including numbers. Hundreds of these incidents have occurred and they are taken very seriously by the FBI.
It'll give you night blindness too, it's really dangerous.
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These are what people like to shine at airplanes
http://www.wickedlasers.com/lasers/Spyder_III_Pro_Arctic_Series-96-37.html
Thankfully they are pricey and not everyone and their dog can afford one
Edit: Spelling
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There's more to it than one rumor. The lasers in question aren't the little pointers but rather big green industrial lasers. These can and will do damage and there is NO reason to point them at airplanes. You're well off the mark Dedalos including numbers. Hundreds of these incidents have occurred and they are taken very seriously by the FBI.
Comon now, you mean to tell me that someone successfully aimed and was able to track and airplanes window and a pilots eye? At what angle and distance? If you want to talk numbers do some calculations yourself to see what it would take to even hit the window for a split second.
Is there a reason to do it? Absolutely not. Is the reason it is a federal crime the fact you could injure the pilot? absolutely not. Can you use a laser to paint a target on a plane for a rocket? yes, and you need to make it a crime for that reason. Hurting a pilots eye would be impossible and even if you did, it would be more dangerous to do that to a driver in the expressway since there is no co pilot to drive your car.
I agree with the law for the reason above, but I find it funny how people jump on these things eating up what the news tells them.
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They WILL blind a pilot at night.
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They WILL blind a pilot at night.
Let me help you. http://www.1728.com/angsize.htm
Try solving for size and see what 1 degree of an angle will do at 1000feet distance. Do that pointing up at a fast moving target and from the side, and then tell me if you have any hope of even hitting that window. Your hand is not that steady to adjust for the planes movement. If you won the lotto and actually hit it, the pilot will have to be looking out the side window and down towards you in order for him to even see that laser beam. My guess is that he would probably have to stand up also. And all that would have to happen in the same second or two that you got lucky.
But don't let facts scare you. Some pilots have reported UFOs following them too. Go with the news reports.
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Have you ever shot a gun at night with a big flash? Doesn't take much to blind you. The pilot would only have to be looking out the window on a high wing aircraft (assuming the wing is white) and it could reflect back in his eyes for just a split-second, and he would still have night blindness.
It's happened before at a local airport, big field at the end of the runway and a bunch of kids would try to shoot laser beams at planes taking off.
Take Golfers word for it, he's a commercial pilot.
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Funny story.
During a cross-country, I was doing a walk around and noticed a bullet hole mark on an emergency escape hatch. I told IP and he got a bit a alarmed. It looked like angle of entrance could only happen during a 30 degree bank. Anyhow we called to our home base and they cleared us to fly home. We paid quite a lot of attention during assent to make sure aircraft pressurized properly. To keep a story short, after we landed crew chief looked at a emergency door and told that it was just a normal drain hole. Bah. lol.
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Yes Dedalos and not only do I mean to tell you it's happened I am telling you it's happened. Not once, not twice but hundreds of incidents are documented. Of those there are many individuals who have been quite successfully prosecuted for doing it.
Thats not eligible for debate. It's fact.
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Take Golfers word for it, he's a commercial pilot.
When it comes to flying an airplane I will. What does this have to do with being a pilot?
Did you check out that calculator?
Tell you what, I bet you you could not hit a moving car for more than a second at 1000 feet away.
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When it comes to flying an airplane I will. What does this have to do with being a pilot?
Did you check out that calculator?
Tell you what, I bet you you could not hit a moving car for more than a second at 1000 feet away.
Why do you have to track the plane? Are you
saying it's impossible to even hit an aircraft for a
split second? would you say it's as likely as a bullet hitting a plane?
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When it comes to flying an airplane I will. What does this have to do with being a pilot?
Did you check out that calculator?
Tell you what, I bet you you could not hit a moving car for more than a second at 1000 feet away.
You assume the universal laws of physics apply to Internet/BBS physics.
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Dedalos saw it on the intardnet, so it must be correct. :rolleyes:
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It's difficult but not impossible.
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Dedalos saw it on the intardnet, so it must be correct. :rolleyes:
A good, another Einstein joins in. What did I see on the internet? I just gave a link to a calculator since people like you would not be able to do the math on their own.
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Yes Dedalos and not only do I mean to tell you it's happened I am telling you it's happened. Not once, not twice but hundreds of incidents are documented. Of those there are many individuals who have been quite successfully prosecuted for doing it.
Thats not eligible for debate. It's fact.
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Why do you have to track the plane? Are you
saying it's impossible to even hit an aircraft for a
split second? would you say it's as likely as a bullet hitting a plane?
Because we are talking about someone intentionally trying to hit a pilots eye with a laser. Impossible? not, but about the same chances as winning the lotto. You need to track his eyes in order to do any damage. A split second contact from the side wont do it. It gets even harder to do since you have no feed back. You don;t even know if your beam is hitting the plane or the window or the eyes. You would need to track it, get feed back, and adjust but your hand would not be that precise and given distance you would be all over the place. Run some trig calculations to get an idea. My guess is that you would be lucky to hit the plane and then, you would not even know you did.
So, not impossible but so hard that it cannot be a common occurrence. Think about how small your target is, the speed of the plane, how big of a difference even 1 degree will make, and the fact that you have to do it from the side so you have to track the target without knowing where you are hitting.
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This troll is pretty good. :devil
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Because we are talking about someone intentionally trying to hit a pilots eye with a laser. Impossible? not, but about the same chances as winning the lotto. You need to track his eyes in order to do any damage. A split second contact from the side wont do it. It gets even harder to do since you have no feed back. You don;t even know if your beam is hitting the plane or the window or the eyes. You would need to track it, get feed back, and adjust but your hand would not be that precise and given distance you would be all over the place. Run some trig calculations to get an idea. My guess is that you would be lucky to hit the plane and then, you would not even know you did.
So, not impossible but so hard that it cannot be a common occurrence. Think about how small your target is, the speed of the plane, how big of a difference even 1 degree will make, and the fact that you have to do it from the side so you have to track the target without knowing where you are hitting.
You have made one incorrect assumption- that the plane is already well up in the air. One can get quite close to an airport, and if you line up with the runway it's only a matter of time. Furthermore, you've assumed that this is a handheld laser- a tripod eliminates the issue of stability. An airplane landing is low, slow, and the pilot will look dead ahead to line up on the runway.
-Penguin
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You have made one incorrect assumption- that the plane is already well up in the air. One can get quite close to an airport, and if you line up with the runway it's only a matter of time. Furthermore, you've assumed that this is a handheld laser- a tripod eliminates the issue of stability. An airplane landing is low, slow, and the pilot will look dead ahead to line up on the runway.
-Penguin
:rofl I think you are not familiar with the alleged cases. So now we have tripods and people standing at the end of the runway with a tripod aiming at a plane with a laser. Give that a try and let me know how it works out for you :lol I ll give you this, in that set up it is very possible but only while the plane is on the runway. Once the nose goes up, forget it. Of coarse, you will be in the back of a police car before you even set up, but . . . .
In your opinion is what you described possible to be a common occurrence? People with lasers on tripods waiting at the end of a runway? :lol
Just so you know, the cases in the news were about planes in flight, landing I think and hand held laser pointers. Try the math and you will see that you can't really argue about it. Unlike you, and a few others, I think I documented why I say what I say. What about you? Care to show me how you can track and hit a target the size of a human eye while it is moving at 150mph and you cant even see it, from lets say 1000 feet away and no aiming device other than your shaking hand?
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:rofl I think you are not familiar with the alleged cases. So now we have tripods and people standing at the end of the runway with a tripod aiming at a plane with a laser. Give that a try and let me know how it works out for you :lol I ll give you this, in that set up it is very possible but only while the plane is on the runway. Once the nose goes up, forget it. Of coarse, you will be in the back of a police car before you even set up, but . . . .
In your opinion is what you described possible to be a common occurrence? People with lasers on tripods waiting at the end of a runway? :lol
Just so you know, the cases in the news were about planes in flight, landing I think and hand held laser pointers. Try the math and you will see that you can't really argue about it. Unlike you, and a few others, I think I documented why I say what I say. What about you? Care to show me how you can track and hit a target the size of a human eye while it is moving at 150mph and you cant even see it, from lets say 1000 feet away and no aiming device other than your shaking hand?
I completely agree with you about the part about the airplanes being 1,000s of feet away, but one can laser-vulch small airfields. Police coverage is another matter entirely, but if you're stupid enough to try blinding a pilot, you're stupid enough to test your luck with the police.
It isn't likely that you could do it, but the odds are much better than the lottery.
-Penguin
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I really don't think it matters if we speculate on it, I doubt anyone is looking for answers in our forums.
If I were into sigs, that would be it. :lol