Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: jolly22 on March 30, 2011, 08:41:59 PM
-
can they really reach to a range of 2k?! That seems a bit much to me......
-
The guns on the B29 are the same 50s on all the other US aircraft IIRC. The 20mm might be able to hit you at 2k but the 50s are useless past 1.2k.
-
A 2k shot would be very difficult, though made easier if you are holding steady at dead six. The bullets are the same, why isn't it possible.
-
A 2k shot would be very difficult, though made easier if you are holding steady at dead six. The bullets are the same, why isn't it possible.
I never said it wasnt possible, it just surprised me when im over some 29s and they hit me 2k out...
-
My guess is that the 1.5k range is from where the round is fired. So if you see him at 2k while he is firing and you are flying at him at 400+mph the rounds might make it to you before they have traveled their 1.5k lifetime. Some Galilean relativity maybe.
-
I never said it wasnt possible, it just surprised me when im over some 29s and they hit me 2k out...
It's not unrealistic.
ack-ack
-
can they really reach to a range of 2k?! That seems a bit much to me......
It's not impossible but the possibility is next to zero. Must have been a lucky shot.
-
It's not unrealistic.
ack-ack
6,000 feet, two moving objects, wind.... it's completely unrealistic.
The effective range of gunners in WW2 was about 400-600 yards. Period. Extend that slightly for the sighted and slaved nature of the -29.
Radar guided B-52 tail gun, range was about 1,200-1,600 yards, as a guidepost.
-
There's no wind in AH.
Games are going to be unrealistic for a while yet.
You might get hit at 2K if you're flying into the bullets from 6oc.
Pretty sure 20mm have the same range as 50cal. Only germane exception in the game' IIRC the Yak 9T's NS37.
-
6,000 feet, two moving objects, wind.... it's completely unrealistic.
The effective range of gunners in WW2 was about 400-600 yards. Period. Extend that slightly for the sighted and slaved nature of the -29.
Radar guided B-52 tail gun, range was about 1,200-1,600 yards, as a guidepost.
Nvm, wouldn't want anyone to get offended...
-
due to the b29s size the drones are almost 1k from the players plane. if the b29 gunner is good he will jump in a drone closest to you and hammer you at what you think is 2k by an icon and is actually 1k
-
6,000 feet, two moving objects, wind.... it's completely unrealistic.
The effective range of gunners in WW2 was about 400-600 yards. Period. Extend that slightly for the sighted and slaved nature of the -29.
Radar guided B-52 tail gun, range was about 1,200-1,600 yards, as a guidepost.
The gunners on the City of Bartlesville scored a kill on a Japanese interceptor over a mile away during a low level daylight raid over Japan. The radar guided fire control system enabled the gunners to hit targets further out since all the aiming and Kentucky windage was all done by computer. Not saying 100% hits all the time but getting hit 2,000yards away wasn't out the realm of possibility. I don't think a manually aimed gun turret like on the B-17 or B-24 would have pulled it off, but with a computerized radar guided fire control system, it was possible.
On a side note, Airman Albert E. Moore serving as the tail gunner on the B-52 "Diamond Lil" shot down a MiG-21 when it locked on the MiG with it's radar 4,000 yards out and destroyed it with his quad .50 caliber machine guns. This was the last time a tail gunner shot down a plane with machine guns. This took place on Christmas Eve, 1972 during the Linebacker raids.
A week earlier, Staff SGT. Sam Turner, detected two MiG-21s approaching his B-52 and locked on the closest one, about a mile away and fired. He couldn't tell from the resulting fireball he saw whether or not he hit the MiG-21 or if it was an errant SAM missile that blew up early. When he looked at his radar, he noticed only one fighter was visible and it was quickly leaving the area. Staff SGT. Sam Turner was awarded the Silver Star for this action.
ack-ack
-
The last time I tested this, no machine gun rounds hit anything after 1,500 yards in AH. They disappear at even less distance, the closer you get to the ground. At just above sea level, machine gun rounds disappear after 1,200 yards.
You can confirm this by using a target in the MA.
-
I am on my phone so bear with me.... if the round leaves the b29 going xxx and the b29 is flying xxx in the opposite direction.... plus the plane in trail is flying xxx MPH when you see the 2k icon how far is the bullet actually going. Seeing as how the closure rate is over half the speed of the bullet.
-
I am on my phone so bear with me.... if the round leaves the b29 going xxx and the b29 is flying xxx in the opposite direction.... plus the plane in trail is flying xxx MPH when you see the 2k icon how far is the bullet actually going. Seeing as how the closure rate is over half the speed of the bullet.
I am just reversing my 18 wheel articulated lorry into a narrow side road on a busy high street during a torrential hail shower while texting but it does occur to me that the bullet may already be travelling at 350mph in the wrong direction ;)
If you are fireing at a figheter making a HO atack then you could in the case of say a 262 have perhaps an 850mph closing speed. For a dead six atack proabably more like 150 mph.
-
The other possibility is latency causing plane to seem further out or closer than it really is depending on whether closing or diverging.
-
As I land my kitfox lite into a twenty knot crosswind, while sipping tea and munching some biscuits I reckoned the following.
At roughly two seconds after the bullet leaves the b29 and roughly 1.5 k the bullet meets the plane. So an apparent 2k shot is more around 1.5. Assuming the following.
.50 900 m/s
B29 160 m/s
Trail plane 170 m/s
Very rough numbers here so you chart and historical document guys please be nice... :cheers:
-
Whenever anyone comes on here and states with exactness a distance and/or the amount of rounds that they fired or got hit with, I take it with a HUGE grain of salt. People tend to over exaggerate in instances such as this.
If you got hit with rounds, then you were within the parameters of a valid hit ... plain and simple. If it was a B-24, you would have gotten hit also ... the .50 cals in this game are exactly the same regardless of what platform is carrying it.
Film or it didn't happen.
-
The gunners on the City of Bartlesville scored a kill on a Japanese interceptor over a mile away during a low level daylight raid over Japan. The radar guided fire control system enabled the gunners to hit targets further out since all the aiming and Kentucky windage was all done by computer. Not saying 100% hits all the time but getting hit 2,000yards away wasn't out the realm of possibility. I don't think a manually aimed gun turret like on the B-17 or B-24 would have pulled it off, but with a computerized radar guided fire control system, it was possible.
On a side note, Airman Albert E. Moore serving as the tail gunner on the B-52 "Diamond Lil" shot down a MiG-21 when it locked on the MiG with it's radar 4,000 yards out and destroyed it with his quad .50 caliber machine guns. This was the last time a tail gunner shot down a plane with machine guns. This took place on Christmas Eve, 1972 during the Linebacker raids.
A week earlier, Staff SGT. Sam Turner, detected two MiG-21s approaching his B-52 and locked on the closest one, about a mile away and fired. He couldn't tell from the resulting fireball he saw whether or not he hit the MiG-21 or if it was an errant SAM missile that blew up early. When he looked at his radar, he noticed only one fighter was visible and it was quickly leaving the area. Staff SGT. Sam Turner was awarded the Silver Star for this action.
ack-ack
Sorry ack, you're wrong, at least on range.
However, the Diamond Lil's crew faced enemy air power. A North Vietnamese MiG-21 raced to intercept the B-52. The bomber’s tail gunner, Airman 1st Class Albert Moore, noticed the MiG's approach.
"I observed a target in my radar scope 8:30 o'clock, low at eight miles," Moore wrote six days later in his statement of claim for enemy aircraft destroyed. "I immediately notified the crew, and the ‘bogie’ started closing rapidly. It stabilized at 4,000 yards, 6:30 o'clock. I called the pilot for evasive action and the [electronic warfare officer] for chaff and flares.
"When the target got to 2,000 yards, I notified the crew that I was firing. I fired at the bandit until it ballooned to three times in intensity then suddenly disappeared from my radar scope at approximately 1,200 yards, 6:30 low. I expended 800 rounds in three bursts."
Another gunner aboard the B-52, Tech. Sgt. Clarence Chute, verified Moore’s kill in his report.
-
I would guess the most likely explanation is he though he was 2.0k away but had drifted closer. Film?
-
Moray, he fired 3 bursts, only hitting on the last which was 1.2k out
And that was radar guided and computer controlled, to boot!
-
My effective range with the M2 is 1.0k. I can certainly squeeze off multiple hits from 1.5k. I am unsure if I have ever made contact from 2k but from a physics standpoint it is not unreasonable. However the impact force would be so deteriorated that it will cause little to no damage. Did they register damage on you?
can they really reach to a range of 2k?! That seems a bit much to me......
-
Moray, he fired 3 bursts, only hitting on the last which was 1.2k out
And that was radar guided and computer controlled, to boot!
I know Krusty, that's my point. (you may wish to read and comprehend before you post) Ack-Ack stated the B-52 gunner was hitting at 4,000 yards, which was wrong. He didn't even fire until 2,000 yards, and hit until under 1,500. The listed max effective range on the tail guns on a B52 (circa 1970) is around 1,200 to 1,600 yards, with radar guided fire control.
My point is that gunnery in AH is way too simple. It is relatively easy to hit at ~1.5K (which means 1.01K-1.5K in game terms), a range that radar fire control couldn't match.
-
Fact.. ..50 Cal m2 round will travel nearly six kilometers. To say that it would have little energy at 1.5 k is a bit of a understatement. Rifle bullets at terminal velocity went through the roof of my container in Iraq and they are much lighter. Also considered the density of air at that altitude. Read about McConnell during the Korean war. He shot at what may be considered long ranges but was successful because of his abilities as a marksman and the less dense atmosphere.
Regardless any impact from a bullet would do something.
-
I can't agree with the AH part..... Few people know how to attack buffs first off, add the fact that most don't gun well and you have a menagerie of possibilities. If you are trying to intercept my buffs, 999000's buffs, yeah you'll find it very difficult, even at the correct vectors, but most of the time I am hunting I rarely have a problem. The B29's firepower is limited by the field of view. I do not feel they are special. (as of yet)
I know Krusty, that's my point. (you may wish to read and comprehend before you post) Ack-Ack stated the B-52 gunner was hitting at 4,000 yards, which was wrong. He didn't even fire until 2,000 yards, and hit until under 1,500. The listed max effective range on the tail guns on a B52 (circa 1970) is around 1,200 to 1,600 yards, with radar guided fire control.
My point is that gunnery in AH is way too simple. It is relatively easy to hit at ~1.5K (which means 1.01K-1.5K in game terms), a range that radar fire control couldn't match.
-
I know Krusty, that's my point. (you may wish to read and comprehend before you post) Ack-Ack stated the B-52 gunner was hitting at 4,000 yards, which was wrong. He didn't even fire until 2,000 yards, and hit until under 1,500. The listed max effective range on the tail guns on a B52 (circa 1970) is around 1,200 to 1,600 yards, with radar guided fire control.
My point is that gunnery in AH is way too simple. It is relatively easy to hit at ~1.5K (which means 1.01K-1.5K in game terms), a range that radar fire control couldn't match.
Ah, I took it as you were advocating long-range gunnery (didn't see the 4K part of Ack's post).
I comprehend just fine, it was simply out of context.
-
I know Krusty, that's my point. (you may wish to read and comprehend before you post) Ack-Ack stated the B-52 gunner was hitting at 4,000 yards, which was wrong. He didn't even fire until 2,000 yards, and hit until under 1,500. The listed max effective range on the tail guns on a B52 (circa 1970) is around 1,200 to 1,600 yards, with radar guided fire control.
My point is that gunnery in AH is way too simple. It is relatively easy to hit at ~1.5K (which means 1.01K-1.5K in game terms), a range that radar fire control couldn't match.
Radar control was to put the bullets on the target which does not have anything do with a .50 cal bullet hitting a target at any range. If the flight path of a .50 cal round intersects the flight path of another object, while in flight, the object will be hit.
Correct me if I am wrong, but doesn't a .50 cal still have some serious punch power at some serious distances down range. I watched a "Sniper" special on TV the other night and they highlighted the Canadian Sniper who took his target out at 1.5 miles and from what was reported, his target didn't just get a bruise but rather was blown apart. That is some serious hitting power after traveling 1.5 miles.
I fly .50 cal planes about 99.99999% of the time and have for the last couple of years. I can get hits at 1.0K out, but I have never gotten hits at 1.5K. I tried it last night. I was chasing an F4U over water that was flying straight and level 1.5K out ... I fired multiple bursts and as Rolex pointed out, the rounds just seem to disappear before reaching the target.
When someone says they got hit by .50 cals 2K out ... I say bollocks ... the game doesn't allow it ... even if it was possible.
-
Kinda off topic but:
There are some wirbl drivers that have no trouble hitting people at 2k out. Didnt the german 20s have inferior ballistics to the hispano?
-
Kinda off topic but:
There are some wirbl drivers that have no trouble hitting people at 2k out. Didnt the german 20s have inferior ballistics to the hispano?
You may think of the plane mounted MG 151/20 vs Hispano. The Wirbelwind carries regular long barreled and heavy AA guns.
-
Fact.. ..50 Cal m2 round will travel nearly six kilometers. To say that it would have little energy at 1.5 k is a bit of a understatement. Rifle bullets at terminal velocity went through the roof of my container in Iraq and they are much lighter.
As discussed on the other thread the bullet that pierced your container was not at terminal velocity unless it was fired right next to your container directly upwards. If it was fired 1 mile away the trajectory was elliptic and speed way above terminal velocity.
-
I disagree. You are making a bit of simplification. If the bullet is in its ballistic trajectory meaning still in stable flight then yes. However the bullet came through the roof sideways. So it was in free fall. Drag would slow it to whatever speed is its terminal velocity. If it were still in stable flight that would be different. The bullet would not have been directly under the hole it would have been on the others side of the container.
The parabolic path in the other thread is accurate to a point because it assumes the projectile is still in stable flight. Once the bullet no longer has the energy...say fired at 60 degrees then it would fall nearly straight down.
-
I disagree. You are making a bit of simplification. If the bullet is in its ballistic trajectory meaning still in stable flight then yes. However the bullet came through the roof sideways. So it was in free fall. Drag would slow it to whatever speed is its terminal velocity. If it were still in stable flight that would be different. The bullet would not have been directly under the hole it would have been on the others side of the container.
The parabolic path in the other thread is accurate to a point because it assumes the projectile is still in stable flight. Once the bullet no longer has the energy...say fired at 60 degrees then it would fall nearly straight down.
How do you know the bullet came through the roof sideways.
A bullet fired at 60 degrees would still follow a trajectory and not fall "strait down."
-
My kingdom for something more than a phone for now....
How do you know the bullet came through the roof sideways.
Beause it was flat on one side from splatting sideways on the roof. Yes, it would have a trajectory but it would look closer to a sideways "L" than some nice parabolic curve.
So back to the B29 discussion. As another poster stated, even if the .50 bullet was motionless, the plane would still hit a 6-800 grain bullet at XXX MPH. That could cause damage. To turn damage "off" at a certain range seems silly unless there are programming challenges with maintaining bullet stream out to the point they strike the ground or reach a point of negligible energy/damage. The .50 at 1500m still has heavy hitting power. On aircraft aluminium this should still be significant.
I don't want to get into what could be perceived as innuendo. I have fired real M2s... a lot. I have shot at things and had my guys shoot at things that are far away. The Surface Danger Zone in our range safety regulation DA-PAM 385-63 shows the bullet having a maximum range to 6k. This means that it has the energy if it maintains stable flight, to make 6k. That is assuming that the angle on the barrel is correct to allow the bullet to reach its max ordinate and still make that range. That angle is probably no more than 15-20 degrees (maybe less??) Anything over that angle and the trajectory begins to look more and more like a sideways "L". That is all I am saying.
Edit: So, I read the M2 .50 Cal Manual. You would be amazed at what the standard ball will penetrate at 1,500m. The cartoon on the wall here, is what I am describing. In cases like #2 and #3 the bullet is tumbling before it hits the ground. (http://a7.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/199196_10150142607962949_700532948_6776624_456926_n.jpg)
-
So it is a little much for he bullets to travel 2k FOR ACES HIGH?
-
So it is a little much for he bullets to travel 2k FOR ACES HIGH?
The bullets don't travel forever, but I don't know how long before they disappear. Do you have film of the indecent to see how far you actually were from the plane?
-
The bullets don't travel forever, but I don't know how long before they disappear. Do you have film of the indecent to see how far you actually were from the plane?
No, i got shot from he 2k out and pressed alt f4.....
-
Where were you in relation to the 29?
-
unless there are programming challenges with maintaining bullet stream out to the point they strike the ground
I don't think that it's a programming challenge, but more in line with keeping track of a "collidable" object (bullet) for as long as it could possibly be a viable object that you can collide with. Keeping track of all collidable objects requires storage, etc ... so making a round disappear after what HT may consider not viable to keep track of could be the case.
-
My guess is that the 1.5k range is from where the round is fired. So if you see him at 2k while he is firing and you are flying at him at 400+mph the rounds might make it to you before they have traveled their 1.5k lifetime. Some Galilean relativity maybe.
boom roast it...QFT
-
I don't think that it's a programming challenge, but more in line with keeping track of a "collidable" object (bullet) for as long as it could possibly be a viable object that you can collide with. Keeping track of all collidable objects requires storage, etc ... so making a round disappear after what HT may consider not viable to keep track of could be the case.
That makes sense to me. Thanks!
-
Where were you in relation to the 29?
High 6 almost over him.
-
High 6 almost over him.
So you probably didn't have a visual on him, if he was under your nose. I'm guessing you had drifted at least 1.5k from him which is plenty close to get hit at.
-
"A bullet fired at 60 degrees would still follow a trajectory and not fall "strait down.""
You know, I have given this some thought and I think I might know part of the answer: As the bullet is fired, the rotation it has, due to rifling, gives it a significant gyroscopic force which keeps the projectile pointed to what ever direction it was fired at. However, as the bullet decelerates the gyroscopic force still wants to point the tip of the projectile to the same direction it was pointing causing the bullet to drop more and more sideways (the aerodynamic shape probably can still alter the direction some but is it enough to overcome the gyroscopic effect i.e. to point the tip towards the angle of decent?). As the speed decelerates and the bullet also endures the effects of penetrating mach boundaries upon deceleration and falling sideways it is no wonder it stumbles at some point. So I'm a bit sceptic that a bullet that is fired upwards would come down tip first after it has decelerated significantly -unless it is able to stabilize itself after tumbling OR it's able to remain stable after losing its stabilizing force from gyroscopic force.
-C+
-
Charge it would not land tip first if fired straight up unless in the timing of the tumble it just happened to strike that way. If anything think of where the bullets cg is. Well aft similar to the lifting body experiments, without the benefit of a flat surface. At least, that's what makes sense to me... lol. :salute
-
Charge it would not land tip first if fired straight up unless in the timing of the tumble it just happened to strike that way. If anything think of where the bullets cg is. Well aft similar to the lifting body experiments, without the benefit of a flat surface. At least, that's what makes sense to me... lol. :salute
Was there anyone shooting in the air right next to your container? If not, the shot came from a flat trajectory further away. If yes, then it's theoretically possible that the shot landed at terminal velocity. The roofing must be extremely thin if a shot traveling at 200mph penetrates it, sideways.
-
Lol... lowest bidder Ripley.... our containers had no shielding so after that happened I put a top bunk on my bed and slept on the bottom bunk. I hoped that it would just hit the mattress .. I also had sudzs nephew in my company that tour ... small world eh?