Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Wishlist => Topic started by: Citabria on April 05, 2011, 09:44:21 AM
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a large mission of bombers that takes hours to setup sends bombers and escorts and strikes strat targets can be nullified by 2-3 guys in c47s who will have no interaction and no combat deep behind their own lines after the high altitude bombers and escorts are rtb.
it took a lot of effort and a lot of time to get to a survivable altitude in the 25-30k range for a deep city/HQ strike.
this effort carries the reward of an epic target for the defenders and the attackers due to the historic nature of the mission. this type of effort should be rewarded so that it does not only happen once in a blue moon.
the type of activity that provides no benefit to the nature of the game is a couple guys in c47s 200 miles inside their own lines resupplying the strat that was just hit. they interact with no opposition. they only zero out and discourage any organized bomber missions by their existence.
tactical resupply of airbases and vfields makes sense. its the supply chain transfering goods from lowest end to an equal low end.
however supplies going backwards up the chain to the strategic level makes no sense. the city/factory strat is being supplied by the airfield. how does that make sense?
and where is the benefit of giving people a reason to fly these resupply missions to cities/HQ/Factories without opposition behind their own lines so far from the enemy no one has the fuel to opose them?
as for hq disable resupply of it too but adjust the downtime to minimum whine level vs 3 minute downtime from the retarded resupply hitting it right after it drops
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IMO it's not resupplies that do it.
IMO the strat pops up on its own before you can even land back at your start base. Which makes you not want to bother doing it again.
Down times and impacts on overall arena are so negligable that aside from the joy of seeing your text buffer fill with building kills, there's no reason to do it.
I don't think that's because of resupplying, because I never see anybody resupply strats, ever. It just pops up too fast.
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After HQ raids, I've seen multiple people flying C47s there to resupply.
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HQ yes, but strat?
It pops up so fast on its own
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krusty ive parked a cv group off of an enemy city/ HQ and leveled the city to 0%, dropped HQ, and dropped 2 factories. the city stays dead 6 hours as it should, the HQ stays down a long time as well with city at 0% without it being resupplied.
the factories.... these bastards even with city at 0% pop back up in 45 minutes flat. Ive posted aboput it in the bugs forum. I think factories should at least stay down 6 hours when the city is at 0% btu right now they do not.
somthing is broken with the factories.
resupply of city/factory/HQ still should be disabled.
and factories should stay down 6 hourse like the city when the city is at 0%
back years ago the strat targets were nailed relentlessly.
simple fact was back then you could level the city to 0%, level the strat factories to 0% then hit HQ and then go tactically take out the enemies field resources after all theat and their strat would still be down.
you got to personally get the benefits of your strategic efforts.
but today with 45 minute town buildings its all pointless anyway aside from radar and ammo. fuel is pointless, barracks are so numerous its hard to take them all out at the field level.
so with it all being a nonfactor anyway make the stuff stay down a long time.
its not like they are always sittign at 0%. they are always 100%.
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You already get rewarded for bombing. What specific additional reward are you looking for from disabling resupply?
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krusty ive parked a cv group off of an enemy city/ HQ and leveled the city to 0%, dropped HQ, and dropped 2 factories. the city stays dead 6 hours as it should, the HQ stays down a long time as well with city at 0% without it being resupplied.
the factories.... these bastards even with city at 0% pop back up in 45 minutes flat. Ive posted aboput it in the bugs forum. I think factories should at least stay down 6 hours when the city is at 0% btu right now they do not.
somthing is broken with the factories.
resupply of city/factory/HQ still should be disabled.
and factories should stay down 6 hourse like the city when the city is at 0%
back years ago the strat targets were nailed relentlessly.
simple fact was back then you could level the city to 0%, level the strat factories to 0% then hit HQ and then go tactically take out the enemies field resources after all theat and their strat would still be down.
you got to personally get the benefits of your strategic efforts.
but today with 45 minute town buildings its all pointless anyway aside from radar and ammo. fuel is pointless, barracks are so numerous its hard to take them all out at the field level.
so with it all being a nonfactor anyway make the stuff stay down a long time.
its not like they are always sittign at 0%. they are always 100%.
No way should re-supply be disabled ... tweaked to make the effort to re-supply equal to the effort that it took to smash the strat(s) ... yes.
This was brought up as a topic in another thread, and HT said that he will be looking at the strat/resupply imbalance issue and possibly making some tweaks. If the hierarchy of City -> Strat -> Field is broken, then the bug needs to be fixed.
Disabling re-supply is not the answer and if what I read from HT is true, that will never happen.
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You already get rewarded for bombing. What specific additional reward are you looking for from disabling resupply?
Rewarding on an individual basis, perhaps (perks), but this is talking about the usefulness of downing these targets. Let's think historically: Bombing missions were to strategic targets. Factories. Shut down the factory and you slow the war effort. This isn't wishing for more personal gain, it benefits the entire country. If this wish were implemented, we would have a much more accurate model of WW2 combat (and that's what we're here to simulate!). Major thumbs up for this wish!! :aok
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Deadstik I think you're confusing scenarios with the MA.
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True, the scenarios offer this type of gameplay, but I see no reason why it couldn't be encouraged a bit by adding certain features. It's the way I'd prefer to see the MA, but it's just my opinion really. We've made constant changes to the game (take for example making only 50% of town needed down, then tweaked to 80%). Sometimes change is intimidating because we see it change our gaming style, but ultimately some change ends up being for the better. HiTech has stated he might change the effect of supples on strats - that, to me, is pretty ideal. No radical change, but helped encourage the hitting of strats. I think we can all agree that right now, as it is, hitting strats has no impact on gameplay. The only thing is does is give a player some farm perks (or a swift 163 death). I don't think these ideas should be condemned so readily! Not looking for controversy - just thinking we should open our minds to these proposals! :salute
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Just give the bomber pilots the Staples "Easy" button. :rolleyes: Afterall, there isn't a war I can think of that
wasn't won by a single mission hitting a single target :rolleyes:
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I like tactical resupply of c47s and m3s to airbases vbases. these resupply sorties have risk. they are often visible to enemy aircraft/tanks therefore add to the ambiance and depth of the game.
3-4 idiots 200 miles behind their own lines droning supplies from an airbase (lowest link in the supply chain to a destroyed strat target (second highest link in supply chain below city) that will resupply itself on its own over time adds nothing to the game and isn't very fun for the 3-4 idiots doing the no risk resupply either.
there is no tactical urgency that requires the strat target to be resupplied. it can not be captured.
there is tactical reasons for urgent resupply of bases however
this would be a case of saving players from themselves.
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Just give the bomber pilots the Staples "Easy" button. :rolleyes: Afterall, there isn't a war I can think of that
wasn't won by a single mission hitting a single target :rolleyes:
Actually I think its the opposite.
The current model allows the fuballerz to avoid the conflict of stopping the bombers. They simply have to wait until they leave and someone will drop a c47 or two on it and fix it right back up.
No need to engage the bombers currently. They are allowed to avoid that combat.
Wab
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I like tactical resupply of c47s and m3s to airbases vbases. these resupply sorties have risk. they are often visible to enemy aircraft/tanks therefore add to the ambiance and depth of the game.
3-4 idiots 200 miles behind their own lines droning supplies from an airbase (lowest link in the supply chain to a destroyed strat target (second highest link in supply chain below city) that will resupply itself on its own over time adds nothing to the game and isn't very fun for the 3-4 idiots doing the no risk resupply either.
there is no tactical urgency that requires the strat target to be resupplied. it can not be captured.
there is tactical reasons for urgent resupply of bases however
this would be a case of saving players from themselves.
Fester I don't see what you're adding to the game. You refer to idiots and saving players from themselves. It seems unlikely.
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No way should re-supply be disabled ... tweaked to make the effort to re-supply equal to the effort that it took to smash the strat(s) ... yes.
This, I believe, is the answer.
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the furballers are not affected regardless.
aside from HQ none of the strat targets affect the furball. they affect the win the war game but only slightly. they have no effect on towns.
towns should have downtime affected by the city directly I think. all the construction company workers live in the city. they have to rebuild the town. gives a direct benefit to bombing the city.
half of the the factories are defunct and broken when looking at them as legitimate targets that should be hit. add that the factories are almost all on an instant respawn timer even with city at 0% and you can see how useless it all is. there is no reason to bomb this stuff when the stupid towns are better score padding damage per bomb targets. and they have no flak and are on the front line.
fuel can be dropped to 75% this makes dropping the refinery that controls how long fuel bins are down a meaningless target.
barracks are so numerous they are almost impossible to stamp out compared to the old 2-3 barrack objects per field. thus disabling troops at a field is largely irrelevant.
ammo bins are decent targets at the tactical level because it robs the enemy of its ability to obliterate ground vehicles with bombs. and it slows an offensive by not giving it the means to pork their next target. but with short down time of ammo factory dropping the factory at the strategic level is meaningless.
aaa is down 45 minutes and town is down 45 minutes. no reason to pork aaa unless you want to vulch. which with manned guns on a tiny respawn timer this makes hitting aaa factory with its also short respawn timer entirely meaningless. its all fluff and better score pad targets are at the front line in the form of the town.
radar is the one tactical target that is a big priority and will almost always be hit and hit many times. at the tactical level its important to hit the radar so the attacking side is not at a huge disadvantage with the defending enemy able to zero in on their position in force. on the strategic level the factory is down ona tiny respawn timer and comes back instantly. no reason to hit it either.
you see the problem is once the factory pops the targets it affects pop back up. if the factory respawn in 45 minutes and so does the radar you efectively do not need to hit the strat factory because it will respawn in 45 minutes and so will the radar. to have the same effect as dropping the city to 0% and the radar factory to 0% you only have to use a few cannon rounds on a solitary radar target to have the same effect as a massive 30 bomber formation and its escorts doing a many hour long mission.
now you talk about balance and what not where is the balance of 1 jabo having the same effect on the downtime of a radar as a massive coordinated high altitude bomber and escort mission deep into enemy territory?
chew on that will ya?
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+1 would be sweet if strategic bombing missions actually had a noticable effect on the way the war could be fought
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Knocking out 1 radar at 1 field is the same as knocking out all radar and friendly icons on the map? Seriously?
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Knocking out 1 radar at 1 field is the same as knocking out all radar and friendly icons on the map? Seriously?
the only radar that matters is in the field that you are attacking, or perhaps another field nearby who cares if there's another 1 zillion fields with dar somewhere. you are not there attacking so its irrelevant.
semp
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But that still doesn't size up to losing all radar info from your clipboard.
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I like tactical resupply of c47s and m3s to airbases vbases. these resupply sorties have risk. they are often visible to enemy aircraft/tanks therefore add to the ambiance and depth of the game.
3-4 idiots 200 miles behind their own lines droning supplies from an airbase (lowest link in the supply chain to a destroyed strat target (second highest link in supply chain below city) that will resupply itself on its own over time adds nothing to the game and isn't very fun for the 3-4 idiots doing the no risk resupply either.
there is no tactical urgency that requires the strat target to be resupplied. it can not be captured.
there is tactical reasons for urgent resupply of bases however
this would be a case of saving players from themselves.
Make it so one link in the chain cannot be re-supplied (no matter how many supplies are dropped) until the higher link is completely rebuilt.
Take out the City, take out the troops factory, take out troops at the field.
You cannot manually re-supply the field to get troops up until the factory is completely rebuilt ... you cannot manually re-supply the factory until the City is completely re-built ... make the manual supply of the City/factory a lot less effective than it is right now.
Now those 3 or 4 idiots (which I am sure you will be more than willing to participate in) ferrying C-47s will be busy for quite some time, first trying to rebuild the City and then on to the factory and then finally onto the field(s) that were effected.
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But that still doesn't size up to losing all radar info from your clipboard.
I don't think he understands that taking the HQ/Radar down means total blindness ... regardless if a fields individual radar is down or not.
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Fester? I doubt it... :lol Either way I agree with the intent.. Haven't really thought about the methods yet.
You cannot manually re-supply the field to get troops up until the factory is completely rebuilt ... you cannot manually re-supply the factory until the City is completely re-built ... make the manual supply of the City/factory a lot less effective than it is right now.
What I was thinking too. A good compromise.
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If winning the war to reset the map was changed from 20% of the other two countries bases and whatever of yours to owning zones in each country......wagon wheel comes to mind with a strat in each independant of the others but related to the HQ.
At that point you don't engage in tyranny of the monority denying the furballers their choice to ignore the war winners. You just loose the resources in a zone on the other side of your country because the hoardlings and tool shedders want to take undefended things anyway. Players can choose to resupply or defend. You know where to up and find bombers or look for NOE missions. Strats then have a purpose to keeping an individual zone. Some genius will probably up b29's and spend an evening taking away all of the zone strats in a country anyway but, resupplying them behind him will have meaning.... :lol
Hey, I'm trying to come up with sumptin here....gotta admit the game play these days is a wee tad missing something.
If I'm going to get a map reset out from under me due to furball myopic indifference, at least make the hordlings work for it behind my back. When a zone is lost have big red letters in the chat buffer announce country X has just won zone B and give everyone from that country in that zone at that time 5 points for being there. Like a minni map reset. Hey a new squad monthly stat. Most Zones Taken.
Fester wants the strat to mean something. Ok, zone to zone minni wars where a raid on your radar strat blinds you in that zone. HQ raids still blind you for the whole country. Kill strat in one zone to affect a localised ENY so you have to up a few bases away to get back your late war rides or until you resupply your zone strat to get production back up to late war rides in the zone.......ahhh this will never flyyyyyyy..... :bhead
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This, I believe, is the answer.
+1 :salute
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Fester? I doubt it... :lol Either way I agree with the intent.. Haven't really thought about the methods yet.
What I was thinking too. A good compromise.
Me neither but it made me think about what HT said in a thread of the same vein ...
This is classic player based game design. Players center design around what they perceive as fun and expect other people to fill in the other roles with out putting themselves in that roll. I.E. you do not hear fullmetalbullet saying that he wants to circle his city for hours waiting for some one to attack it. Then he would say something to the effect. I want cities and factories to have more of an impact so "I" can defend them. He makes a classic player assumption that a change will only effect what he wants it to effect, and does not think "what would I do if that was done to me".
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SlapShot,
Hitechs whole response in that thread makes much more sense to our current discussion.
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Quoted from Hitech:
Strat will NEVER be designed in a method in which fullmetalbullet could go out and do major impact to a country. Possibly him and 10 of his friends could have a significant impact. The reasons fullmetalbullet gives for wanting a change are directly opposed to good game design. You can aggravate a player or country , but you can not remove his ability to have fun fighting. Multiply times fullmetalbullet states he wants people to defend a target while he wants to go attack it.
This is classic player based game design. Players center design around what they perceive as fun and expect other people to fill in the other roles with out putting themselves in that roll. I.E. you do not hear fullmetalbullet saying that he wants to circle his city for hours waiting for some one to attack it. Then he would say something to the effect. I want cities and factories to have more of an impact so "I" can defend them. He makes a classic player assumption that a change will only effect what he wants it to effect, and does not think "what would I do if that was done to me".
The fact is that strat must ride a fine edge of having an effect on a country with out removing the fun of continuing a fight. If you take a close look at the strat system you will see that it is designed to remove a countries offensive ability but does not remove the roll of continuing to fight. It is folly to think people will spend time in the air guarding one area. People will do what is fun, flying a defensive patrol in an arena style play is not would most people would consider fun on a regular basis.
The only difference to the current strat system from what is written on the web page is that city buildings stay down for 6 hours instead of 3.
The only change I have been considering , and had starting to look at previously, was lowering the effects of supply drops. I believe it should take an equal or greater amount of time flying supplies as was spent attacking the target. So at some point I may lower the effect of supplies.
HiTech
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you think I care about winning the war? i have 7000 fighter 7000 bomber and 4000 vehicle perks. I could care less about winning the war.
am I a regular bomber pilot? no fighters.
so what do I want? I want bomber pilots to fly into my sides strat targets en mass so I have more bombers to shoot at.
because I like shooting at bombers and I like them having a reason to feel good about attacking a high value target in spite of being shot down x3 after their bombs are dropped.
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Slap-
I think it's good. Can't think of anything that fits better.
It doesn't change the Me 163 situation : they're left as free to fly as ever (their side of the "fun" equation) so you still have to contend with em, but a handful of players can still be sure to knock out HQ and carpet the city if they play it right. There's good odds they don't make it out alive, but their target goes with em. No changes there. In that respect I think the B-29 becomes a very valuable pillar for HQ/City raids. So no changes there, no fix for what aint broke.
On the other hand the damage they do, if they hit city as well, means HQ rebuild will take long enough to be worthwhile, and on top of that will take longer proportionately with home team's resupply effort. That should be enough to open the door for strat hits at both HQ zone or at frontline factories. This setup should be near enough optimal that with a little tweaking it'd give you enough time to launch factory raids when HQ goes out.
Then adjust factory down time [edit] and airfield/vbase strat items [/edit] as needed. There's definitely a bug as Fester describes.. 45-60 minutes seems good for 100% City health, I dunno about 0%. 6 hours seems a bit long. Anyway, that's up to simple tweaking.
If this works you get a healthier system where both bombers and fighters get more gameplay. Bombers get to have meaningful targets, and fighters as well. And the mission guys probably get more of a direction to work in, instead of focusing on nameless faceless identical fields to capture.
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you think I care about winning the war? i have 7000 fighter 7000 bomber and 4000 vehicle perks. I could care less about winning the war.
am I a regular bomber pilot? no fighters.
so what do I want? I want bomber pilots to fly into my sides strat targets en mass so I have more bombers to shoot at.
because I like shooting at bombers and I like them having a reason to feel good about attacking a high value target in spite of being shot down x3 after their bombs are dropped.
Bomber pilots will fly bombers regardless of supply. You could even argue that resupplying gives bombers more targets.
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You mean that resupplying strat means bombers can just turn around and re-bomb it again? That makes sense at front line strats if those bombers have the patience to wait for supply convoy to show up, but not at HQ zone where 163s will destroy anything that loiters that long - long enough for a supply convoy to fly the ~25-40mi to undo their damage.
You still have a net negative on the actual strat consequences of their raid - radar is down for negligible amount of time, and strats elsewhere can be resupplied regardless.
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you think I care about winning the war? i have 7000 fighter 7000 bomber and 4000 vehicle perks. I could care less about winning the war.
am I a regular bomber pilot? no fighters.
so what do I want? I want bomber pilots to fly into my sides strat targets en mass so I have more bombers to shoot at.
because I like shooting at bombers and I like them having a reason to feel good about attacking a high value target in spite of being shot down x3 after their bombs are dropped.
I don't think anyone in this thread is accusing you of caring about "winning the war" ... at least not from what I could see.
Seems that everyone that has participated in this thread agrees that the balance of effecting strats and reviving strats is not equal and it doesn't really give the bomber pilots a "carrot" for taking such a risk. What I disagree with is making it a one-way street. You can't bomb me to the stone age and not give me the equal ability to rebuild.
Even HT himself realizes the imbalance and said that he was already looking at the strat aspect and with the current threads on the subject, maybe he will focus his laser on this.
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It doesn't change the Me 163 situation
Agreed ... that is an enigma in and of itself. Personally, I think that there should be a limited amount of 163s that could launch within a specific time frame from an airfield.
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the me163 is probably just as large a deterent in bombers going near a 163 base. ie HQ, relocated city by hq
the 163 should be 300 perks like a b29 formation.
that would put the rareness back in this rare rocketship that shot down 1 bomber in ww2 and killed most of its own pilots.
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Slap on the 163 -Yep but it's not feasible .. it'd be at least as bad as the fights over who controls ships and shore batteries.
perk price... duh.. Yep thats a good way to regulate. Only other fair one I can think of is an Me 163 aircraft factory. Tied to straight availability, or perk price, or fuel available...
The main thing is to get the strat system working. With the above Me 163 knobs to twiddle, and strat down times adjustments, it should make it pretty easy to set up something like Slap's idea. I agree no resupply is too lopsided.
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Can't you just drop the fighter hangers to stop the 163s?
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See Rule #6
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Can't you just drop the fighter hangers to stop the 163s?
That's what... 8 FHs at what I assume are always large fields for the 163s?
It seems like a better set up if (eg) you put a 163 factory in those City area strats. It too would be daughter to City in the strat chain - no rebuild till City rebuilt.
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Just give the bomber pilots the Staples "Easy" button. :rolleyes: Afterall, there isn't a war I can think of that
wasn't won by a single mission hitting a single target :rolleyes:
How are you winning the war by dropping a HQ and it staying down?
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See Rule #6
:rofl ... ADD ?
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SlapShot,
Hitechs whole response in that thread makes much more sense to our current discussion.
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Quoted from Hitech:
Snip}
The only difference to the current strat system from what is written on the web page is that city buildings stay down for 6 hours instead of 3.
The only change I have been considering , and had starting to look at previously, was lowering the effects of supply drops. I believe it should take an equal or greater amount of time flying supplies as was spent attacking the target. So at some point I may lower the effect of supplies.
HiTech
I wish that there was also the same consideration for equity in effort for base capture and base defense. They had it right and then, :ahand the poor horders no longer had exclusive rights to acquiring real estate, and before you knew it town percentages were raised to close the window for base capture. Before fights spawned in multiple areas of the map, now it's back to one squad determining the outcome of the entire chess board.
Please excuse the hijack, because Fester has a good point, and HiTech seems to be a reasonable man, but the way that Bombers are looked down upon in this game (ie... tool shedders, porkers, milk runners, etc.), shows little respect for the brave men that crewed them. I understand why HiTech would want to distinguish his product as not a WWII game, though still the best online game with WWII planes.
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Looked down on so often because right now they don't really have more worthwhile targets than that - porking and milk running and raining on GVs' fun.
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Swoops' missions are fun for all that come in contact with them. Anything that could promote more of that kind of action, is worthy of promoting.
Moot, I certainly take into consideration every time that I am in a Ground vehicle that bombs are my enemy. They are also my friend. I hope some kind sir will have the courage to fly to the opposing fields and destroy the ammo dumps. It should then be my task to seek and destroy ground targets without the "lancstuka" dive bombing my tank that I have purposely hidden from my ground assailants.
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valid point.
That's what... 8 FHs at what I assume are always large fields for the 163s?
It seems like a better set up if (eg) you put a 163 factory in those City area strats. It too would be daughter to City in the strat chain - no rebuild till City rebuilt.
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you think I care about winning the war? i have 7000 fighter 7000 bomber and 4000 vehicle perks. I could care less about winning the war.
am I a regular bomber pilot? no fighters.
so what do I want? I want bomber pilots to fly into my sides strat targets en mass so I have more bombers to shoot at.
because I like shooting at bombers and I like them having a reason to feel good about attacking a high value target in spite of being shot down x3 after their bombs are dropped.
Good lord don't have a cow. I know you will show up if the dinner bell gets rung. I'm trying to ring it by considering what the rest of the players who fly bombers might think fun. Your motivation is pretty straight forward. Food for your need to kill. Shorten the flight time and bribe em to show up. Eventualy they will show up out of habit. Most players will fly a bomber box 2 sectors at the most and bomb from 10k at even that. It comes back to how they want to invest their time for their fun.
We keep making the mistake of thinking from inside of our personal boxes as pointed out by Hitech. Take the pain invested by a bomber pilot out of getting there and sweeten his pot for the effort. After all of his trouble to get there all he gets is cannible fester...And you wonder why they don't come to your parties.
Why will bomber pilots risk it all on a single CV but ignore the strat?
How does the strat not become the single controling factor for a country but still be a valuble and fun target?
Who do you want this game changed for and why? If this answer is honestly just you. There is a very good chance the changes you come up with will be ignored by the rest of the players because they have as many divergent ideas of what constitutes fun as you do. Alas we know what you think of the majority of their ideas after these many years.
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+1 to this again - and my reasons are in the other thread.
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See rule #4
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IMO it's not resupplies that do it.
IMO the strat pops up on its own before you can even land back at your start base. Which makes you not want to bother doing it again.
Down times and impacts on overall arena are so negligable that aside from the joy of seeing your text buffer fill with building kills, there's no reason to do it.
I don't think that's because of resupplying, because I never see anybody resupply strats, ever. It just pops up too fast.
I do, free and easy perks :rock
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you think I care about winning the war? i have 7000 fighter 7000 bomber and 4000 vehicle perks. I could care less about winning the war.
am I a regular bomber pilot? no fighters.
so what do I want? I want bomber pilots to fly into my sides strat targets en mass so I have more bombers to shoot at.
because I like shooting at bombers and I like them having a reason to feel good about attacking a high value target in spite of being shot down x3 after their bombs are dropped.
There is a valid point being made here. How many times have you climbed up to 17-25k chasing bombers over strats, to have them bail all 3 bombers because going back to land is not worth it. :salute
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There is a valid point being made here. How many times have you climbed up to 17-25k chasing bombers over strats, to have them bail all 3 bombers because going back to land is not worth it. :salute
or they are too lazy to make the flight home or they don't want to be shot down ?
Can't tell you how many times I have seen (from an Ostwind/Whirble) a set of Lancs take down a VH base and rather than fly home ... they bail ... or a set of bombers that have bombed the town and try to escape and as soon as you get within range of possibly killing them ... they bail.
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And they never realize bailing is the same as being shot down. :O
or they are too lazy to make the flight home or they don't want to be shot down ?
Can't tell you how many times I have seen (from an Ostwind/Whirble) a set of Lancs take down a VH base and rather than fly home ... they bail ... or a set of bombers that have bombed the town and try to escape and as soon as you get within range of possibly killing them ... they bail.
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You guys are still blaming the bomber pilot for not doing what you want him to.
It's his $14.95 and is just as good as your $14.95. There are no rules proscribing how a bomber pilot is supposed to invest his aricraft's offensive capabilities to "enjoy" his time in the game. Give him a fun reason to invest his time to show up so you can fly home with your easy kills.
So far the only things you can agree on is the strat has relatively nothing of "FUN" interest to most bomber pilots in this game and as a group they won't fly their bombers the way you want them to. So back to what Hitech said about player centric wishes for the game. You are still thinking inside of your own boxes to make yourselves happy. What are the unintended consiquences?
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You guys are still blaming the bomber pilot for not doing what you want him to.
It's his $14.95 and is just as good as your $14.95. There are no rules proscribing how a bomber pilot is supposed to invest his aricraft's offensive capabilities to "enjoy" his time in the game. Give him a fun reason to invest his time to show up so you can fly home with your easy kills.
So far the only things you can agree on is the strat has relatively nothing of "FUN" interest to most bomber pilots in this game and as a group they won't fly their bombers the way you want them to. So back to what Hitech said about player centric wishes for the game. You are still thinking inside of your own boxes to make yourselves happy. What are the unintended consiquences?
I disagree completely. You are making the mistake of distinguishing black and white between a bomber pilot and a fighter pilot as if there is no room for grey area. There are plenty of players, I and Fester included, that would participate in strategic bomber sorties if there was a significant impact on the war, relative to the level of effort that must go into such an attack. As it stands, I know that flying 30-45 minutes in a bomber to go attack a strat or HQ is ultimately a waste of time, and deters me from it. Done it once, that was enough. Only a small percentage of the player base, aka the bomber pilot diehards, will even attempt it as it stands.
Personally I think there needs to be longer down times, as well as better real time strategic information that shows exactly what is going on, what is down, how that affects other fields. Most players don't have a clue as to what bombing cities these strats and factories controls. Formulating a beautiful plan to cripple your enemy is basically impossible/non existant in current format.
P.S. Fester was clearly talking in tongue in cheek when he said he wants more bombers to attack so he can shoot them down.
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It's not impossible, just not worthwhile. The error margins / time window to exploit it are too small.
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When dealing with such things in the AvA, we have come to the conclusion, that it is the best strategy to give every player the option to choose what type of role they wish to play. So if someone comes into the arena expecting to dogfight, it is up to that person to initiate that action in hopes that others will have the same intent, or are at least be willing to ablige. The same goes for bombing targets, and capturing bases. There are times when downtimes have to be adjusted to balance the overall arena (keeping short range dogfights and tank battles available, as well as presenting viable targets for ordinance.)
Posibly the most reasonable area to be affected by bombing should be fuel. The impact would be felt in terms of long range missions, certain bomber altitudes and range, etc. but would not hinder a country's defense. Ordinance is a sticky area, because without it ground vehicles can gain an upper hand rather quickly. Availability of troops and supplies would next in terms of benefit to the value of target, with a less "lethal" affect on a country's abilities.
It's not impossible, just not worthwhile. The error margins / time window to exploit it are too small.
Maybe it is time for the exploit to favor the offense then. How long have we known about the port exploit? Park a CV off the coast and ack can be resupplied in seconds. I sure hope that has been fixed....... I don't even bother with most base captures anymore due to the "exploits" that favor EZ mode base defense.
There I said it, EZ mode and exploit. Two of the nonsense reasons that people use as an excuse for not presenting changes or knocking wishes. Moot, this is not a knock at you however, it is more of an eye of the beholder thing.
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It's not impossible, just not worthwhile. The error margins / time window to exploit it are too small.
No one bothers to follow through.
As has been pointed out in this thread, by the developer, taking down the strats in the proper order, then porking fields, slows, if not halts, a country's offensive ability.
Tired of the hoard rolling your bases? Kill the city, then the ords or grunt training, then pork some bases.
But it's tooo haard.
Tagma. Titanic Tuesday's map. The stats are right on the coast. Three sectors max from the enemy. Sectors away from the Me163 base. It would be easy to do as the game was designed.
No one resupplies strats. If anything, with something down at a base they need, they resupply the base.
HQ is a totally different situation. It's obvious it is down and what needs to be done to get it back up. Flying without HQ up is the next best thing to flying in the dark. You can't quickly find where the fights are.
Look at it from a different perspective. Make the wish: I do not want to be able to resupply my own strats if needed. I want to be limited to 25% fuel so I can only fly BUFFS, Mustangs, and Jugs. I don't want to have troops or ords available to me to use if they are destroyed.
Then, maybe the powers that be will think what you are asking for is what you really want.
I still think it's a non-issue anyway.
A. no one porks the starts as they were designed.
B. no one resupplies the strats if they are bombed.
Everyone looks at the HQ situation, "I flew for an hour to kill a country's dar and it's back up in 15 minutes" and substitutes "STRAT" for "HQ".
RE: equity of effort.
The whine is also that the effort to kill something is greater than the effort to get it back up. I say this is not so.
One plane can kill the dar and ords at a small field in one sortie. One person with supplies cannot undo this in one trip.
Three or four players can take down HQ in one sortie. Often one long sortie but still one. How many supply runs to bring it back up? Six? Eight? Of course it is quicker. Do you want HQ on the front lines where it is easy to kill? Do you want your HQ where it is easy to kill?
Wishes like this are always about "how can I make it easier to kill the other guy?" Remember, it also becomes "how can it be easier for the other guy to do it to me?"
Is that what you really want?
wrongway
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How long have we known about the port exploit? Park a CV off the coast and ack can be resupplied in seconds.
About 10 secs.
HiTech
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Chilli - I'd never heard of that. You mean the CV's LVT spawn allows you to mass drop supplies to the port if it's brought close enough?
Wrongway - I'm on both sides of this one so the bias argument doesn't fly. If you read what I've argued that's self-evident.
Then, maybe the powers that be will think what you are asking for is what you really want.
Don't go Bustr on me, I'm not trying to cook anyone's fun bunny, I just want to raise the potential for both damage and repair so that actions mean more rather than less. As it is now (putting aside HT's mention that resupply effectiveness is twice what it should be) you just don't have any worth in hitting HQ. Not only is it most likely a suicide mission unless you go there in a large mission, the strategic value (radar) lasts too little time, because resupply is too quick.
Now HT says we ought to get twice as much downtime for a given amount of resupply (say, as much as we usually get), and if that's what we'd get (probably not, because people would resupply more - consequently with decreased resupply effectiveness) it'd already be IMO a large enough increase to be worth leaving it be for a while to see how the whole Arena/Players system adjusts to it.
Instead HT says he will change the mechanic - resupply no longer affects all buildings within supply box range, but a limited number of buildings. So it seems to me he agrees that resupply equity needs balancing. Which is all I've argued. There's both a decrease in resupply effectiveness (15min instead of 30), and a new limit to how many buildings in supply range are affected - but then the range could be adjusted too, so I don't know what the bottom line +- rebalancing of supp. effectivness is.
The difference between strats in HQ zone and elsewhere is that most of the time the HQ zone is behind enemy lines, and so you can't do jack about those resupply convoys == HQ downtime in practice is as good as guaranteed to be always minimal. Whereas I think the balance of [downtime/resupply survivability] outside of the HQ area is good enough.
Wishes like this are always about "how can I make it easier to kill the other guy?" Remember, it also becomes "how can it be easier for the other guy to do it to me?"
No and you must've meant to quote Fester or something, because I clearly say after thinking about it that no resupply is too lopsided.
I still think it's a non-issue anyway.
You think it's a non-issue that the central part of the game's strat system is ignored? You don't think that's symptom of some dysfunction?
A. no one porks the starts as they were designed.
B. no one resupplies the strats if they are bombed.
A. because they're not worth it. Or they would be bombed like hangars and radar are consistently bombed.
B. Because they're not valuable like dot dar antennas and hangars are. Make them so and they will be minded.
And this argument isn't really HQ but City. Especially when the City is near HQ. I haven't been back long enough to comment on what it's like to have the City away from HQ.
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Chilli - I'd never heard of that. You mean the CV's LVT spawn allows you to mass drop supplies to the port if it's brought close enough?
You forgot the The spawns were fixed so you cannot dry spawn any more
part.
Wrongway - I'm on both sides of this one so the bias argument doesn't fly. If you read what I've argued that's self-evident.Don't go Bustr on me, I'm not trying to cook anyone's fun bunny, I just want to raise the potential for both damage and repair so that actions mean more rather than less. As it is now (putting aside HT's mention that resupply effectiveness is twice what it should be) you just don't have any worth in hitting HQ. Not only is it most likely a suicide mission unless you go there in a large mission, the strategic value (radar) lasts too little time, because resupply is too quick.
Now HT says we ought to get twice as much downtime for a given amount of resupply (say, as much as we usually get), and if that's what we'd get (probably not, because people would resupply more - consequently with decreased resupply effectiveness) it'd already be IMO a large enough increase to be worth leaving it be for a while to see how the whole Arena/Players system adjusts to it.
Instead HT says he will change the mechanic - resupply no longer affects all buildings within supply box range, but a limited number of buildings. So it seems to me he agrees that resupply equity needs balancing. Which is all I've argued. There's both a decrease in resupply effectiveness (15min instead of 30), and a new limit to how many buildings in supply range are affected - but then the range could be adjusted too, so I don't know what the bottom line +- rebalancing of supp. effectivness is.
The difference between strats in HQ zone and elsewhere is that most of the time the HQ zone is behind enemy lines, and so you can't do jack about those resupply convoys == HQ downtime in practice is as good as guaranteed to be always minimal. Whereas I think the balance of [downtime/resupply survivability] outside of the HQ area is good enough.
No and you must've meant to quote Fester or something, because I clearly say after thinking about it that no resupply is too lopsided.
You think it's a non-issue that the central part of the game's strat system is ignored? You don't think that's symptom of some dysfunction?
A. because they're not worth it. Or they would be bombed like hangars and radar are consistently bombed.
B. Because they're not valuable like dot dar antennas and hangars are. Make them so and they will be minded.
But the dynamics have not changed and when it was easy, ie: relatively risk free, strats were bombed all the time.
What has really changed is there is a greater chance of getting killed. The end results, offensively, are still the same.
I think people used to attack stats more in the past because they like to blow stuff up. Not because they thought it would make a difference.
So, in effect, the strats as they are now, when they are attacked, actually are essentially positive for game play. A single 110 or buff formation cannot leisurely flit about killing the ammo factory all by themselves and have an effect.
I think strats are ignored because people are not looking at the big picture. It's even simpler than strats. When a country is getting rolled, no one porks the attacking country's bases to slow down their offensive. Strats is just a bigger part of that.
I'm just not buying the "make strat more important" argument. I'm seeing a "make strat easier to kill" argument.
HQ is a different matter. No dar sux. Pure and simple. :aok
What is really wanted is an "industrial complex" that has no effect to a country, is relatively easy to get to, and blows up real good.
It would be easy to bomb. No one would care. And, the attacker would get some token points and their name in lights.
wrongway
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Fester, Moot, Grizz,
Sorry if you gents are offended by the generalised use of the word "Fun". The three of you are obviously trying to kick the game up a few notches on the complexity scale. That would be fine if you three were not the exception to the general population rule that most paying customers are here to seek generic uncomplicated "Fun".
Your version of the game would not be rewarding for most of the paying customers who's greatest daily accomplishment is to get off the ground and have fun for a few hours with thier drinking buddies. It still comes back to you want the game changed to reward your personal needs. You assume that because you are who you are, the rest of the player population will be rewarded because it came from your genius. Remember the comment to "This is classic player based game design." by someone.
I've always been amazed that you gentelmen who are obviously a few cylinders more blessed at this simulation than most of it's customers have yet to emulate Hitech and Pyro's history. Creating your own coadly universe to fufill your obvious need for a more nuanced and complex form of the genre. Guess it's easier and less personly costly to pester Hitech trusting to his experience than to compete with him at his level.
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I think strats are ignored because people are not looking at the big picture. It's even simpler than strats. When a country is getting rolled, no one porks the attacking country's bases to slow down their offensive. Strats is just a bigger part of that.
I'm just not buying the "make strat more important" argument. I'm seeing a "make strat easier to kill" argument.
HQ is a different matter. No dar sux. Pure and simple. :aok
What is really wanted is an "industrial complex" that has no effect to a country, is relatively easy to get to, and blows up real good.
It would be easy to bomb. No one would care. And, the attacker would get some token points and their name in lights.
wrongway
You are incorrect (giggles at pun unintended). Our squad routinely goes out on missions just to shut down troops. The down time is the KEY factor here, no matter what strat we are talking about. Kill the city, kill the strat, then kill the barracks. :rofl Good luck with that even the vUberSizedSquad don't have those kind of resources. Besides, you can correct me if I am wrong but, someone would either need to coordinate simultaneous attacks on city and strat, in order for both to be down at the same time. Once those two chores are accomplished (if ever) then the resupply time of the affected country field objects will need to go down when??? Do both targets hit (strat and city) need to be at the 0% rebuilt stage? Hard? This is rocket science.
Geez.... I would rather sit in the tower with my La7 all polished up and ready to roar out at the last second and pop one trooper. :rolleyes:
Kudos. Dry spawn fixed? That is good news.
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for the question of "what do you need to do for it to be worth it" you need to kill the city, and whatever you want to pork factory' they need to be below 20% or its not worth it. (0% is what you really want) but as you hit that you also need to be porking the fields at the same time. never have i ever seen a mass strat raid done with a mass base pork raid at the same time.
in reality you would want to pork the city and all factorys other than fuel (as fuel never goes below 75% anyway ever) bring them all down to 0% and at the same time pork the troops and ord at all fields. this will make the resupply time go from the standered 45min (with no GV/ C47 resupply help) to 2hrs or so.. so that's 2 hrs that a county's base is porked... the trouble is that we all know it takes like 9 guys making 1 run to fully resupply a base. with GV spawns and depending on flight times from base to base. it doesn't take much for a few guys to resupply... making it so the factorys can not be resuplyed would help. (and make more guys defend the factorys)
but what really is needed is a mass bomber mission on bases with bombs dropping on all the fields at the same time just as the city and factorys are bombed (any real delay makes it worthless as it is all about downtime) you cant bomb the factorys and expect to fly home and re upp and then bomb fields.. its too much time.
so eather we need more players per room (allowing for more people available for mass missions) as you would also still need the grunts on the front line fighting it out defending your own country. or longer downtime at the strats with the resupply option taken out.
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I'd love to see strats come back into play, making them a viable target doesn't make the game more complex. Adds more targets and strategy for those looking for that, others can continue to ignore them and look for furballs.
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Why have the Devils Brigade who we refer to as the vTards for their 30 plus player base takes never use their superior numbers to take down the afor mentioned objects? Why are long term goals with delayed gratification not persued in the MA opposed to the special events arenas and their "Two Sides" historic scenario?
The targets are in all of the WWII MA arenas. The tools to destroy them are availble for free to anyone who wishes to attack them. So why won't the horse drink the water?
How about listing all of the non-complicated reasons players don't invest their time in the strategic objects on the map? I can list the first one which is blatantly obvious.
1. It's boring.
Ask yourself why you don't spend your quality fun time everytime you login attacking the strats. Then list them here not as our usual personality greivences between posters but, to compile a list of simple reasons "Why" you don't choose to spend your time and money attacking the strats in the MA's. Our aired grievences are expressions of the obvious fact we want something to change. I seem to remember someone from HTC remarking that our wants are different from what we need.
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Wrongway
If you've made your mind up on what it is I'm really thinking then there's nothing I can add that's any use. I'm not looking to make strats easier to kill. I want the game's strategic side to be more functional, the same way the tactical side is rich enough that it keeps some people hooked on the game 10 years down the road.What is really wanted is an "industrial complex" that has no effect to a country, is relatively easy to get to, and blows up real good.
It would be easy to bomb. No one would care. And, the attacker would get some token points and their name in lights.
We have that and I don't like it.
I agree people just like to blow stuff up. I don't think that means strat can't be optimized for strategy.
No dar is the right price for letting someone fly all the way to your backyard. I don't mind it. Not being able to fly sucks. So I kill hangar killers.
You forgot the [dry spawn] part.
Dunno what you mean. I don't see that anywhere in this thread. It's unrelated to the topic anyway.
Your version of the game would not be rewarding for most of the paying customers who's greatest daily accomplishment is to get off the ground and have fun for a few hours with thier drinking buddies. It still comes back to you want the game changed to reward your personal needs. You assume that because you are who you are, the rest of the player population will be rewarded because it came from your genius. Remember the comment to "This is classic player based game design." by someone.
what a ton. of. BS. Just pure pretensiousness-laced strawman.
The only way the HQ should come down, the way I see it, is with a major bomber mission like we've seen in the past.
I've always been amazed that you gentelmen who are obviously a few cylinders more blessed at this simulation than most of it's customers have yet to emulate Hitech and Pyro's history. Creating your own coadly universe to fufill your obvious need for a more nuanced and complex form of the genre. Guess it's easier and less personly costly to pester Hitech trusting to his experience than to compete with him at his level.
Just delusional. Not even close to what's been said or what was meant. And no specific arguments, just vague refs to complexity and lots of brow beating tagged on. Just the same topically vacuous, inaccurate bombast over and over. Get real. Either argue the points or send this crap by PM so I can delete it and these discussions stay on topic.
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Your version of the game would not be rewarding for most of the paying customers who's greatest daily accomplishment is to get off the ground and have fun for a few hours with thier drinking buddies. It still comes back to you want the game changed to reward your personal needs. You assume that because you are who you are, the rest of the player population will be rewarded because it came from your genius. Remember the comment to "This is classic player based game design." by someone.
I've always been amazed that you gentelmen who are obviously a few cylinders more blessed at this simulation than most of it's customers have yet to emulate Hitech and Pyro's history. Creating your own coadly universe to fufill your obvious need for a more nuanced and complex form of the genre. Guess it's easier and less personly costly to pester Hitech trusting to his experience than to compete with him at his level.
Wow, what a bunch of nonsensical garbage.
You are simply trying to mold your preconceived notion of anyone you classify as "skilled" in this game to your deranged idea that they are self centered ego centrists without even reading the thoughts expressed.
I proved you wrong with my last post. Refuting my arguments firstly there would be a good starting point as opposed to this soapbox unrelated nonsense.
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Egocentriscity in this case is a fine line walked by those with a tad bit more computing power between the ears than the norm of the audience. As you eliminate your audience of possible equals via your assertions of their lack of equal standing, so does your self awareness of the aformentioned condition by the self granted mantel of your victory.
Great debating technique to discredit your competition by trying to force them to define their existance before they can regain your aproval of their worthyness to argue with you. Eventualy with no remaining peers by your opinion to question your assertions, or to accept your defence of your composition, is itself a self feeding position similar to well...egocentriscity. Reminds me of being back in college arguing with tenured's or arguing with politicians. Not much difference in the two.
In the end you want what you want and anyone who gets in your way is stoopid.....suppose egocentricly focused is out of the question.
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Again zero topical substance.
Great debating technique to discredit your competition by trying to force them to define their existance before they can regain your aproval of their worthyness to argue with you.
A description of your own posts. Where are your counter arguments to the specific points argued / ideas suggested in this thread?
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Ummm... the dry spawn fixed.. was a reference to the CV exploit that must have been fixed in a patch that I hadn't recalled was fixed and I wrongfully reported in this thread the exploit was still being used. That was an excellent piece of work to fix, because it gets to the heart of what this conversation was about. Thank you guys at HiTech for taking care of that nasty piece of business.
How that related to topic discussion in this thread: Fester and others are of the opinion that the penalty assigned to attacking another country's strats is not significantly reflected in the game play. I agree. However 9 sets of supplies set out and presto bingo we are all good as new.
Trying to offer alternatives instead of just complaining a few here are brainstorming in a way that maybe the staff at HiTech are just plain too busy to do, for every little area. Not saying that the current strat system is not well thought out. It does what it does and offers a challenge. What it doesn't do, in my opinion, is give a decent group of individuals a possible tool to slow the merciless rolling of bases by a single swarm of persistent attackers (insert your favorite swarm). Or just an alternative to either participating in the slaughter, or ignoring it.
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And they never realize bailing is the same as being shot down. :O
Not if you're >2K away. :salute
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Not if you're >2K away. :salute
capture = shot down, score wise.
If you're bailing over friendly territory... :headscratch:
wrongway
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Question.....
If a tank shows up at a city just after bombers hit fuel and can finish off the rest of the fuel factories.......and then shoot the trains before they reach the city with his last 15 rounds (150 minutes of train killing), how long will fuel sit destroyed and what effect does it have on enemy fuel supply?
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I think Fester brings up some good points and it got me to thinking. What about this:
1. Bring back the zone strats so they're spread around the map again.
2. Place an airstrip at each strat, only accessable by Goon, M3 or Skd.
3. Create vehicle spawns from each strat to appropriate areas (more on that in a second)
4. Strats can only be resupplied downstram (i.e. you have to up from the city to resupply a factory or from a factory to resupply a base... this is where the appropriate vehicle spawns come in).
5. Strats stay down for a set time unless resupplied.
6. Cities can be resupplied from HQ even though it's not officially part of the strat system.
7. If the HQ is down, cities can't be resupplied, if cities are down factories can't be resupplied, if factories are down fields can't be resupplied, however, if factories are down and not cities for instance, the factories could be resupplied then begin to resupply the fields again.
8. Make each step in the chain take less and less time to rebuild on it's own, starting with HQ being the longest and fields being the shortest.
9. Continue to allow field to field resupply.
I would think this might really add to the strategic element of the game for those that are into that, still make it difficult to really hurt your opponent significantly and spread more fights out over the arenas.