Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: AKHog on April 12, 2011, 02:50:49 PM
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My wonderful state has decided to make it legal to carry concealed weapons without any licensing or other bs. I'm looking for a pistol I can carry for protection in the backcountry (mountain biking, hiking, rafting, etc). My needs are:
-compact and light weight. I never want to consider leaving it at home because it's too heavy
-fairly cheap to shoot. I am a firm believer that having a weapon you are more familiar with is more valuable then having a huge caliber. It needs to be something my wife and I can shoot a lot with little expense.
-take down a Grizz. Now I know this is very subjective, and I know to guarantee a kill I need a huge caliber. I'd rather go with a smaller caliber that I can handle really well and feel good about placing tight groups when it matters. That being said, if I have to shoot at anything it will most likely be a Grizz.
I have a Colt 1911 and 2 S&W .357 revolvers. My bday is coming up and I'm trying to pitch a new handgun to the wife for "our protection". The down and dirty truth is I just want something fun to shoot that is practical to bring along on backcountry trips into griz country. I know my 4 inch barrel .357 is probably pretty close to fitting my needs, but I'm open to hear suggestions on what might be even better. So what do you all think?
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Everyone has their favorites for one reason or another.
I'd suggest XDm 40 http://www.springfield-armory.com/ (http://www.springfield-armory.com/)
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500 S&W :lol
-BigBOBCH
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Me, I qualified on the 1911 for the first 3 years I was in the Corps before they switched to 9mm. I would just holster that thing and carry it :D
Seriously,
I currently carry a S&W +p .38 hammer-less concealed.
I don't know about taking down a Grizzly :lol But my money would be on a revolver. Preferably hammer-less along the lines of .38 +p or .357 with hollow points.
As far as groupings under pressure, the .38 +p would be the better bet. Still gives you the power approaching .357 (but not quite) without the recoil associated
with short barrel .357's .
Springfield and Ruger make some really nice sub-compact .40 semi-autos. I forget the model of the Ruger, but it comes with a couple of frames to change from standard to compact etc.
Cool idea, but I like the simplicity of the revolver and being able to stuff it in my pocket.
My 2 cents.
*edit someone beat me to the .40 lol
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a 40 is a good mix between punch and cost.
9mm for cheap firing, but wouldn't do much good against an animal
40 is an in between
and then you have the 45 (I know there are others in between, these are just my personal preferences.) which has great punch (not TOO expensive to fire), but a smaller magazine load out.
the 1911 is my personal preference when it comes to handguns
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I'm a .40 cal fan after having fired both the 9mm and .45 calibers.
Check out Taurus, they are reasonably priced.
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Is anything cheap to shoot now, once you get past standard 9mm or 38 special rounds?
Perhaps a .44 magnum, and use the 'cheaper' .44 special rounds for practicing, throwing in actual magnum loads as you want for practice?
I very much like 10mm, and practice with the 'cheaper' 180gr rounds most of the time rather than using the hotter loads all the time at the range.
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500 S&W :lol
-BigBOBCH
Definitely work for the grizzly don't know so much about the concealed. :rofl
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Yup, in grizzly country why take any chances.
(http://img703.imageshack.us/img703/9103/800pxtom500nightfiring.jpg)
Or get one of these in 4 wheel drive and you can kill it AND grill it!!
(http://img717.imageshack.us/img717/1287/snw500.jpg)
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Trust me when I tell you to buy a S&W 696+ with a 4in barrel. The caliber is .357 magnum but you can shoot the much cheaper (and easier to learn) .38 Special for about 1/3 the price, recoil, and noise. You will have 7 shots from a highly respected gun and made by the best revolver manufacturer in the world. The .357 Mag can get the job done on %99 of the vermin you will be facing, including the grizzly if you have the right ammo (heavy 158gr hunting bullets).
The learning curve is shorter than an auto loader, the cartridge is more powerful, and the quality and reliability is second to none. The gun wont weight a ton (unlike the .44 and larger caliber frames), and you can carry in holstered or packed away easily.
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Loon I think you meant s&w 386 pd.
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I have a S&W 586 with 4 inch barrel and it is too big/bulky for me to want to carry all the time. I have a S&W 19 with a 2.5 inch barrel which is probably a good option, except I just have the experience of it being the most difficult pistol to constantly group shots with. I'm afraid when it mattered I wouldn't be able to land hits, especially considering my wife may be the one to use it. My other problem is the little thing weighs 40 ounces empty.
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My most recent pistol of interest has been the Ruger LCP in 380
By all accounts: small, compact, reliable and accurate - all for around $320.
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Glock 27 - .40 cal...holds 9 +1 small, light weight,holsters well, although its a little blocky.... and you will need the extention for the mag to fit almost any hand....
Glock 36 .45 cal ...hold 6+1 single stack sub compact.... very controlable for a large cal subcompact... Im may be in the market for one right now.
Glock 33 .357 cal holds 9 +1 I believe... never shot this one... it is a hot round, and I imagine expensive.
Glocks are a point and pull weapon, no external safety. They will fire after falling in the mud...but will not fire if dropped or impacted....... lots of large cal rounds in a small pakage for the charging bear. They are single action weapons and produce a consistent, easy (5lb or 8lb) trigger pull...as opposed to double to single.
Lastly I believe you can get a conversion kit for may of the glock guns and fire .22 long... couple hundred for the kit, but you can shoot all day for nothing.
Just one man's biased opinion Good luck.
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That being said, if I have to shoot at anything it will most likely be a Grizz.
If that is the case you need a long gun. A pistol isn't going to stop an attacking bear, rifles and shotguns aren't even a sure thing.
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Heck, who was that guy that killed the grizz with the buck knife a few years back.... took an arse kicking but won the engagement......bet he later upgraded his weapon of choice...
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No personal experience, but everything that I have ever read on this subject suggests that you really need a 12 gauge slug to bring down a grizzly in a self defense situation. IIRC there were reported cases of grizzly being killed by a 357 mag, but those were the hottest loads you can ever find (probably self loaded too) shot out of a 6+ inch barrel with a sniper scope into the most vulnerable body part. And those were professional bear hunters, which means that THEY were choosing when to shoot, and they had plenty of time to take a good aim. Self defense situation, on the other hand, is totally different. (Your normal 9mm, 357, 40S&W and 45ACP won't even always incapacitate a well determined human attacker.)
Since a shot gun is not really practical in your case, I would go with the most powerful hand gun round I can find. (Hand gun rounds that were designed to fire at humans won't do much in a bear country IMO)
I would recommend one of the Ruger revolvers with a short barrel ("short" means quick to draw, and easy to point in very tight spaces ex: when a bear has already brought the human down, the human can still point a short barrel at the bear, even during the fight.)
Something like this: http://www.ruger.com/products/superRedhawkAlaskan/models.html
As was mentioned before in this thread, 44 mag will also take a cheaper 44 special
Edit: That being said, if you just want to make a nice addition to your collection that is easy and cheap to shoot, and can be practically used for self defense (in a human world), get some Glock, SIG or HK in 9mm :)
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Just remember though, if you are going to carry a handgun to shoot Grizz, be sure to file the front sight off the barrel, so it will hurt less when he shoves it up your.....
Nothing wrong with the 1911, good caliber, reliable ballistics, and not expensive to shoot with surplus ammo.
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Loon I think you meant s&w 386 pd.
Sorry, a typo indeed.
S&W 696+ w/ 4in barrel. It is a matte stainless steel 7 shot revolver.
FWIW: Forget the 9mm Luger, .40 SW, .45ACP. None of them have enough of the velocity and bullet weight combo to get the job done. The .357 magnum or .44 magnum are your best bet for calibers. Both have a "little brothers" that can substitute for target practice and training.
You want simplicity, reliability, and brute force. The S&W 686+ offers that.
Love the "sniper scope" on the .357 revolver terminology. :rofl That scope was probably a fixed 3 to 5 power with a FOV of 20ft at 50 yards. If you have a bear charging, the .357 mag with the proper ammo to the face, head, or shoulder will stop it right in its tracks.
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shooting a Grizz with a handgun :headscratch:
not that smart
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I know nothing about grizzly bears, but I don't think the bear is going to notice the difference between a 9mm and a .45. I think I'd pick the 9mm just to have the extra rounds you usually achieve vs. a .45 (though a .40 is usually close in count to what a 9mm can hold.
General question for someone with more knowledge: Would you load self-defense rounds for a bear or you would just want a quality FMJ for maximum penetration?
I've got a Glock 19 9mm, Holds 15+1, I love the gun, and am about to get myself a Glock 26 to replace my current CCH firearm.
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About five years ago 3 guys we know were out on a mountain bike ride in the local woods here in Wyoming. They were spread out and the first one came up on a moma griz, and she charged without provocation (probably a cub nearby). When the 2nd guy got there the bear had the first guy pinned to the ground with his bike on top of him. The 2nd guy emptied a can of bear mace into the bear at point blank range. The bear retreated a bit but quickly changes it's mind and turns around, starting to size up both of them now and false charging several times. One guy was injured and they were in no position to run, partially due to all the bear mace they got on themselves. They said they felt like they had just spiced themselves for a nice meal for the bear. At seemingly the last minute the 3rd guy shows up and the bear takes off.
Hearing these guys tell their story first hand will send chills down your spine. Now last year Griz were spotted on the ridge line right above my house, they are practically in my back yard. Or more accurately, I'm in their back yard.
Of course I have a shotgun at the ready for HD, but that is not exactly practical on a mountain bike or when I'm trekking miles on foot already loaded with gear. I know a hand gun is a compromise and no guarantee, but it's better than my pocket knife or nothing at all, like local legend Dale Peterson.
(http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_ucc3YgdjUvA/TUE0-w3jDfI/AAAAAAAAB2Y/JFPMwv4cqQA/s1600/bare-hand-killer1%255B10%255D.jpg)
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General question for someone with more knowledge: Would you load self-defense rounds for a bear or you would just want a quality FMJ for maximum penetration?
I was told to load hydroshock hollowpoints into my .357 for bear defense by a fairly reputable source.
I do know that a charging bear is damn hard to bring down. General thought is that you actually have a better chance of doing damage when the bear is right on you, shooting it in it's head and shoulders as it charges doesn't do as much damage as you might think. That is a scary though when you only have 6 rounds in a stub nose revolver. When do you start shooting? :O
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A slight hijack here...
Would the Glock 31 be worth the purchase?
Back to topic...
So what's with all this hatred against Grizz all of a sudden? :O He gank one too many of your goons? :devil
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I was told to load hydroshock hollowpoints into my .357 for bear defense by a fairly reputable sourse. I do know that a charging bear is damn hard to bring down. General thought is that you actually have a better chance of doing damage when the bear is right on you, shooting it in it's head and shoulders as it charges doesn't do as much damage as you might think. That is a scary though when you only have 6 rounds in a revolver. When do you start shooting? :O
Exactly why I think I would choose a pistol with a lot of rounds. Glock 17 holds 17+1 (and I believe there is a 19 round magazine available, not to mention the 33), an XDm 9mm holds 19+1. I like the Glock 19 because I can usually conceal it on myself and still hold a good number of rounds
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So what's with all this hatred against Grizz all of a sudden? :O He gank one too many of your goons? :devil
For the record I have no hate towards Griz. I spend a ton of time in the woods and have a tremendous respect for all of the predators. I even spent a lot of time this past winter tracking Mountain Lions for a National Geographic, spending nights camped out on a kill waiting for a 150 pound cat to come eat, and never once did I feel I needed protection. And besides, personally I would never sport hunt or kill anything in the woods that wasn't trying to kill me first.
But in the last few years the town and region has had more and more bear encounters, and they aren't the cuddly black bears, they are big pissed off grizzlies. The population is growing and their territories are huge, in my opinion it is only a matter of time before I see one too close for comfort.
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I was told to load hydroshock hollowpoints into my .357 for bear defense by a fairly reputable source.
I do know that a charging bear is damn hard to bring down. General thought is that you actually have a better chance of doing damage when the bear is right on you, shooting it in it's head and shoulders as it charges doesn't do as much damage as you might think. That is a scary though when you only have 6 rounds in a stub nose revolver. When do you start shooting? :O
I am not a hunter but I played one on TV......... :D
na seriously I would not want to have to take on a grizz with out a nice 444 or bigger(and 200 yards between us), for a hand gun I would get the Largest caliber possible, 357 is not a good choice, they'll bounce off the skull(from stories Ive heard)
be careful man, Grizzlies Generally wont be a danger, but you get an old one that's malnourished or a mom and cubs.
be careful, good luck :salute
Exactly why I think I would choose a pistol with a lot of rounds. Glock 17 holds 17+1 (and I believe there is a 19 round magazine available, not to mention the 33), an XDm 9mm holds 19+1. I like the Glock 19 because I can usually conceal it on myself and still hold a good number of rounds
dood.....he is talking about possibly coming across a Grizzly Bear up close and personal....9mm the bear wouldn't even feel, one or 17 of em, if your that close to a grizz you need to be able to kill instantly.
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:O if you're going to shoot a bear...even a black bear...i'm sure the op knows this already but, don't shoot at the forehead or top of the skull unless you're shooting massive slug...even body shots are risky, especially with a pistol.
i know what you're looking for and tbh i think smokingloon has the best idea...a medium frame magnum revolver with a 4 inch barrel...unless your wife can handle a .357 magnum pistol.
i like rugers just from experience of owning a few, but s&w would be very nice if you can afford one.
good luck with the search...
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dood.....he is talking about possibly coming across a Grizzly Bear up close and personal....9mm the bear wouldn't even feel, one or 17 of em, if your that close to a grizz you need to be able to kill instantly.
Yeah, but wanting a pistol that his wife can handle, he can carry easily, afford to shoot, use for personal protection, and grizzly defense just isn't really possible. It's not just a grizzly gun.
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Yeah, but wanting a pistol that his wife can handle, he can carry easily, afford to shoot, use for personal protection, and grizzly defense just isn't really possible. It's not just a grizzly gun.
a woman could get used to a large caliber handgun, there are many woman who use them. its not worth taking the chance that the tool for the job wont do the trick...IE kill a Grizzly bear instantly.
and NO a 357 is not gonna do the job, not quick enough at least.
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Yeah, but I wouldn't want to conceal carry a 44 for personal protection.
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Exactly why I think I would choose a pistol with a lot of rounds. Glock 17 holds 17+1 (and I believe there is a 19 round magazine available, not to mention the 33), an XDm 9mm holds 19+1. I like the Glock 19 because I can usually conceal it on myself and still hold a good number of rounds
If you want higher capacity mags for you weapons I would suggest you get them soon. Seems like the Brady Campaign are out to get a ban on "assault" mags. :rolleyes:
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I was told by an Alaskan gold dredger that you should shoot for the knees on the rear legs. He said by taking out the rear legs you pretty much stop,the bear, and the frontal plate on a grizz may stop or deflect just about any handgun caliber you could shoot at it. I don't know if he was full of BS or not I was just a 19 yr kid at the time, but what he said made sense, that is, if you can hit the rear knees on a charging grizzly.
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Yeah, but I wouldn't want to conceal carry a 44 for personal protection.
even a 44 is a bit too small for Grizz
I was told by an Alaskan gold dredger that you should shoot for the knees on the rear legs. He said by taking out the rear legs you pretty much stop,the bear, and the frontal plate on a grizz may stop or deflect just about any handgun caliber you could shoot at it. I don't know if he was full of BS or not I was just a 19 yr kid at the time, but what he said made sense, that is, if you can hit the rear knees on a charging grizzly.
actually sounds smart...like you say though "IF" you can hit the knees of a running grizz...that's a big If, about a thousand pounds "IF"
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Has anyone considered the hand grenade option?
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If you want higher capacity mags for you weapons I would suggest you get them soon. Seems like the Brady Campaign are out to get a ban on "assault" mags. :rolleyes:
Bought my first AR-15 a few weeks ago. First thing I did was purchase a couple extra 30 rd. magazines for it.
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Yeah, but wanting a pistol that his wife can handle, he can carry easily, afford to shoot, use for personal protection, and grizzly defense just isn't really possible. It's not just a grizzly gun.
personal protection against very large wild animals with thick hides...9mm would do nothing more than wound the bear while he's biting your skull off unless you can stick the barrel in his ear or in his mouth and fire the full clip...and a wounded bear is probably the most dangerous animal in the woods.
.357 would be a starting point for an emergency defense weapon against a bear...the guys who work the pipelines in alaska are told to carry a minimum .357 magnum...bigger if they can handle it.
I was told by an Alaskan gold dredger that you should shoot for the knees on the rear legs. He said by taking out the rear legs you pretty much stop,the bear, and the frontal plate on a grizz may stop or deflect just about any handgun caliber you could shoot at it. I don't know if he was full of BS or not I was just a 19 yr kid at the time, but what he said made sense, that is, if you can hit the rear knees on a charging grizzly.
makes a lot of sense, if he stands on his hind legs before he charges, that would be the time to hit him.
for us puny humans...a full grown boar grizzly is a terminator in a fur coat.
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For the record I have no hate towards Griz. I spend a ton of time in the woods and have a tremendous respect for all of the predators. I even spent a lot of time this past winter tracking Mountain Lions for a National Geographic, spending nights camped out on a kill waiting for a 150 pound cat to come eat, and never once did I feel I needed protection. And besides, personally I would never sport hunt or kill anything in the woods that wasn't trying to kill me first.
But in the last few years the town and region has had more and more bear encounters, and they aren't the cuddly black bears, they are big pissed off grizzlies. The population is growing and their territories are huge, in my opinion it is only a matter of time before I see one too close for comfort.
No, no. I ment Grizz as in OUR Grizz. :lol Was trying to make a funny. Obviously I failed. :o :lol
As for your want for a weapon when you hike, I can't blame you. I think a lot of the times, you surprise each other. And bears don't take kindly to surprises. Personally, I'd be more worried about a Mountain Lion if I'm in their territory (you have experience tracking them. I don't). For bear defense, would the Glock 31 be up to the task?
for us puny humans...a full grown boar grizzly is a terminator in a fur coat.
:rofl :rofl :rofl
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Heh... I'm thinking my .460 with a 300 grain slug would drop a grizzly. Not that I'd want to get close enough to try. ;)
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I my self would stick with the 1911 I have a series 70 highly modified and I use military grade black talon rounds. Trust me you hit something with those in a .45 cal round its going down. The Glock 40 is also I very nice weapon so is the H&K 40 if you want to spend the money.
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Must... not... rant....
Well, I can't hold back... here comes my rant. :old:
I just as big a gun nut as the next guy here, I own several...
BUT... carrying a handgun in the backcountry for "bear defense" is just plain silly and stupid.
First point... bears, be they Grizzly or Black are just not that aggressive. I would dare say I've spent more nights deep in bear country then most here, I worked as a backcountry guide in Yellowstone for 2 summers and the Wind Rivers for 5 summers, along with dozens of personal backpacking trips. I've been up close with black bears and grizzlies many times, and I've never had them act aggressively at all. (Moose are a different story however. )
Contrary to popular belief, bears don't spend all day wandering around looking for hikers and boy scouts to eat, many bears will quickly vacate the area when they sense humans near (through smell, hearing or sight). The bears that don't leave, also don't seem to be bothered at all by people.
I was in a swimming hole in a river in the Winds once when a black bear walked right up, and sat on the opposite bank watching us swim, then after about 10 minutes he got bored and wandered over to a log to dig some grubs. Another time I had a grizzly walk right through our camp at dawn, I woke up when I heard something knock over some gear by my tent, I thought it was one of the boys gonna drop my tent, so I rolled over, unzipped the door and stuck my head out to find it less then 3 feet from a grizzly bear shoulder. I was pretty shocked, :eek: but I lay back down quietly and listened to the grizzly wander around camp a bit, soon enough he left without doing any damage except to a can of deet. These are just two of a dozen or more bear encounters I've had.
Point is that you have a better chance of death or serious injury in the backcountry from dozens of other causes (falling, hypothermia, hyperthermia, poison plants, lightning, bee stings whatever) then from bear attack.
Second point... In the unlikely event that a bear does become aggressive, bear spray is much more effective at stopping a charging bear of any size then any handgun. (bonus is it's non-lethal as well) I know people won't believe me, but I've seen personally what that spray can do when a stupid boy scout decided to let some loose, it is NASTY stuff, several times more potent then the pepper spray the police use. Several accounts tell of bears taking several bullets without stopping, plus when you're scared poopless with a large bear charging at you how accurate is your aim gonna be??? Bear spray however has been very, very effective, and you don't need to aim it, just point in the general direction and let it go. When I was guiding in the Wind Rivers, I was required by the USFS to carry bear spray, fortunately I've never had to use it. But it is lighter and easier to carry then a handgun as well.
If your backpacking in USFS designated wilderness land, or National Parks they usually have their own laws against firearms anyway. (which I don't agree with but that would get rule #14) Besides who wants to carry that extra weight anyway.
Summary... if you really want protection from bears and other wild animals in the backcountry, be smart, give wildlife plenty of space, don't get between a sow and cub (or food), store you food and smellables properly, AND leave the gun at home and spend $70 on a can of bear spray instead. :old:
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AKHog,
You have 2 different categories going here. You want a weapon for CCW and you want a handgun for grizzly deterrent. The same pistol is not going to do both jobs well.
For CCW and cheap practice you want small and inexpensive practice ammo. The best for that is a 9mm in a small pistol format. Something like the Ruger small 9. The next best choice if you want more power would be a .40 in as small a package as you can get or a .357 with a round butt and 2" or 3" barrel. If you want to practice you can shoot 38's. You will still have to make a compromise in that choice as well. If you are interested in comfort one of the composite frame or air weight frame revolvers will do. If you want to shoot it a lot, get a steel frame (since it's for concealment I recommend stainless) and it will be more comfortable to shoot.
For grizzly deterrent you want the biggest handgun you can get and it will still be too small. At the very very least you want a .44 magnum with hard cast heavy slugs over a heavy powder charge. The S&W 500 would be better but still with hard cast solids. You don't want expansion, you need penetration. Practice will not be cheap or fun.
In all seriousness, if you are going into grizzly country and anticipate problems, take a rifle of at least medium caliber (30-06 or better, more is better) or at the least a shotgun with 3" high velocity slugs, not the old soft forster slugs.
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I was told by an Alaskan gold dredger that you should shoot for the knees on the rear legs. He said by taking out the rear legs you pretty much stop,the bear, and the frontal plate on a grizz may stop or deflect just about any handgun caliber you could shoot at it. I don't know if he was full of BS or not I was just a 19 yr kid at the time, but what he said made sense, that is, if you can hit the rear knees on a charging grizzly.
Yeah... cause you're the greatest shot in the world, and you can hit the back legs of a bear moving 30 mph straight at you! Even thought the front legs are between you and the back ones. :rolleyes: :rolleyes:
I doubt most could even make a headshot on a bear charging 30 mph straight at them, not until it was right on top of you, which is to late anyway. Sudden large surges of adrenalin do not help your aim.
Forget all this garbage and old mountain man tales about headshots, and legshots and calibers and grain and muzzle velocity. Seriously just buy some bear spray. It's cheap proven technology. I carry UDAP brand, it's supposed to have better coverage and range then some of the cheaper brands.
(http://www.udap.com/images/bear_spray_wholster.gif)
Think about it this way, Yellowstone, and Glacier NP Park Rangers and Park Police carry both a handgun and bear spray. Go ask one of them which they are gonna reach for first if a bear charged them.
makes a lot of sense, if he stands on his hind legs before he charges, that would be the time to hit him.
for us puny humans...a full grown boar grizzly is a terminator in a fur coat.
No, it doesn't, it makes absolutely no sense at all, only in Hollywood movies do bears stand and roar menacingly before they charge you.
And grizzlies are not terminators, they are just animals, they eat, sleep, and make babies. Like I said they don't wander around the woods all day looking for delicious humans to eat. Did you know that usually less then half of a grizzlies diet is meat? And as often as not the meat they eat is carrion (already dead)? They eat just as much berries, nuts, insects and grubs as they do meat, they are true omnivores. The only bear that is 100% carnivore is the Polar Bear
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I have 3 cans of bear spray, I almost always have one with me any time I'm in the woods. I would use the spray first, the gun would be a last resort. However read my story about the mountain bikers, in the chaos they basically got most of the spray on each other and it didn't seam to effect the bear much if at all. That is the story that is playing in the back of my mind when I'm laying awake at night under the stars. :bolt:
I wouldn't think twice to spend all night camped on a mountain lion's kill with no protection, they are really timid creatures and don't want much to do with humans. They are probably the smartest of the predators in our woods and will stalk and get CLOSE without you ever knowing, but they are mainly just curious. I would also film black bears waking up and wondering around just feet from the winter dens. The moms chase us off and I don't think much of it. Wolves are everywhere around here but are nothing to worry about. Griz are a completely different story. Some of the "park bears" are known for being tame, but most are pretty aggressive animals. You are right about the Moose though, those are probably the most dangerous animal out of them all! The problem with the "mountain donkey" is they are just plain dumb, and have big powerful legs made for stomping. I wouldn't think twice about taking down one of those if it was in attack mode (after I emptied a can of bear spray on it first of course :devil ).
I just came home with a box of .38 special, and plan on going out with the wife to put some ammo through the stub nose this weekend. It sounds like as far as taking a hand gun for hiking etc, that the .357 I already have is probably as good as anything else.
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saggs, not to disagree with you but, i lived and hunted in bear country long enough to know what they will do in the very rare instance that a surprise encounter occurs...albeit i've never been closer than 300 yards from a grizzly. i've seen a sow black bear sit back on her haunches, not stand, when she thought her cub was in danger...it's not normal behavior for sure but it will sure scare the water out of you.
and yes, a full grown grizzly is a terminator in a fur coat if you're unlucky enough to be too close for either of you to get away when you encounter one...it will act on its instincts and attack until it no longer feels threatened...never said a thing about eating humans.
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Yeah... cause you're the greatest shot in the world, and you can hit the back legs of a bear moving 30 mph straight at you! Even thought the front legs are between you and the back ones.
No, I don't see that happening at all. I don't think that is a realistic situation. I don't think a griz would necessarily run you down or attack from long range unless it thought it was threatened or REALLY hungry.
What I imagine as a dangerous situation is when the bear is surprised at very close range, either by myself or someone I'm with. In this case it's practically hand to hand combat right away. This is by far the most common bear attack scenario you hear about, and this is probably when a large caliber hand gun would be most effective.
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My sister lived in Kodiak for a long time and used a 44 magnum for bear.
In her usage, she found that shooting past the bear's head with large supersonic bullet made the bear leave 100% of the time and she never had to actually shoot one.
That said, I would buy two Zastava M88s and spend the surplus on getting trigger jobs and personalizations done rather than buy one expensive gun since two guns almost double the possibility that at least one will be where you are when you need it.
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Having been around bears in the wilderness a lot, I just don't understand peoples paranoia about them. And I disagree that Grizzlies are more aggressive then Blacks, that has not been my experience at all, and I've seen no real data to that effect.
Gyrene.. you talk about when you accidentally startle a bear, and yes, you are right that is when they will attack, if they attack. But just as often, probably more often, when you startle a bear it will just run away in a big hurry. Besides with the incredible hearing and smell that bears have, it is pretty dang hard for a clumsy human to sneak up on one. As for the mountain biker story, sounds like they had some crappy spray, it is not all created equal, I spring for the expensive (about $70-$80 a can) stuff, or maybe it was old, you should replace it every couple years because it does loose potency over time. But it did apparently keep the bear at bay long enough for him to loose his nerve and leave. Who knows what would have happened if they had taken a pot shot at it with a handgun, it is very possible in that case that they may have just wounded it enough to piss it off and been in really bad shape. So... I'm not convinced it would have ended any better with a handgun instead of spray.
I did manage to startle a black bear in the Winds one day, we came over a rise and out of the trees into a small lake basin from downwind and he was about 50-70 feet in front of us, in the middle of taking a dump :lol. He froze and stared at us for a few seconds, I kept my head down and we slowly backed away (while getting the camera out). After staring at us for several seconds he turned and ran off. The pile of scat was still steaming when I came back to it. :lol
To put it in perspective, according to Wikipedia (which could be wrong, but is usually right) there where 26 fatal bear attacks in the North America from 2000 to 2010.
Yet in the decade from 1998 to 2008 there where 449 deaths from lightning strikes just in the USA, and thousands die every year from hypothermia, or drowning in the backcountry.
I'm just saying if something happens that is going to cause your death in the backcountry, odds are that it won't be from a bear attack. I worry more about weather, or falling and breaking a femur, or falling in a river when fording, or mistaking death kamas for wild onions (not really but it has happened), killing me on a trip then I do bears.
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EDIT:
Whatever, I give up. Some people just like to have unfounded paranoia about stuff. :rolleyes:
BTW: For a fun handgun I think you can't go wrong with a 1911, or something like a Sig Sauer P229 or Glock 19 if you want something concealed. I just think it's silly to carry it for "bear protection."
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All I know is; I talked to the guy yesterday and I will purchasing this baby the week I get back from Afghanistan.
(http://i54.tinypic.com/veu2p2.jpg)
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All I know is; I talked to the guy yesterday and I will purchasing this baby the week I get back from Afghanistan.
(http://i54.tinypic.com/veu2p2.jpg)
.416 or .50?
That's a big chunk o' cash.
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.50
And yeah it will be....about 10,900 after taxes and some ammo.
64 bucks for ten rounds... :eek: :furious
(The guy said it was an M82 but I'm SERIOUSLY thinking he was misinformed. It looks a LOT like the M82's brother. The M107. They are both considered to be the "Barret Light fifty.")
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I once read an American silhouette shooters handbook which represented various very powerful handguns and loadings they could use and there was also mentioned hunting and among those were a very fitting remark:
"It has been a custom for people who shoot bears with their revolvers to file the front sight flat. To assist in fast draw you ask. Not really. It's because when you shoot a bear with your big a55 revolver it does not hurt so much when the bear catches you and shoves the barrel up your butt."
Pretty much tells what they thought of the potential of a powerful hand gun to stop a bear. :D
-C+
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I did manage to startle a black bear in the Winds one day............The pile of scat was still steaming when I came back to it. :lol
Whose pile, his or yours :lol
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To put it in perspective, according to Wikipedia (which could be wrong, but is usually right) there where 26 fatal bear attacks in the North America from 2000 to 2010.
Yet in the decade from 1998 to 2008 there where 449 deaths from lightning strikes just in the USA, and thousands die every year from hypothermia, or drowning in the backcountry.
I think the biggest factor for the fear, which ignores actual statistics, is the thought that being eaten alive would most likely be a scary and horrible death. :lol
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I have a Glock 20 10mm for hiking, fishing and biking. I feel quiet comfortable with the gun and can shoot it very well... Surprisingly well actually.
15+1 of 200 grn hardcast double tap bullets at 1300 fps.
I like it because it is light compared to revolvers and has good fire power. One Mag is for 4 legged another mag for 2 legged.
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Whatever, I give up. Some people just like to have unfounded paranoia about stuff. :rolleyes:
... I just think it's silly to carry it for "bear protection."
Saggs I appreciate what you are saying, I just fail to see a good alternative.
I'm not basing my paranoia on anything unfounded, I'm basing it on my personal experience and the experiences of my friends and others in my town. The griz population is growing and there are bears being sighted in areas they haven't been in 50+ years. I've spent a ton of time in the woods around all the predators and I realize there are other dangers too. I carry bear spray just about everywhere I go but I want to add a level of protection. A rifle is not practical for my needs. I know even a large caliber hand canon is a compromise but I'm all ears if you have a better alternative.
I agree bear attacks are rare compared to lightening strikes, but you are only looking at a very general statistic. Factor in how much time I spend in the woods around my house, in known griz country, and the types of things I often do, and I have a much larger chance of encountering a bear than the average human. Just like looking at golfers who play in the rain compared to normal humans regarding lighting strikes. Statistics are difficult to quantify in those regards.
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I like it because it is light compared to revolvers and has good fire power. One Mag is for 4 legged another mag for 2 legged.
That is helpful, thanks. The biggest reason I don't carry my .357 is it's weight. How much does your Glock20 weigh?
What rounds do you load for 4 legged and 2 legged?
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Tanfoglio witness compact (or full size) in 10mm?
(http://gastatic.com/UserImages/5257/935238766/pop_wm_2128706.jpg)
Under 500 bucks.
Of course, I may wait for Vltor to start delivering thier version of the "bren 10".
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Tanfoglio witness compact (or full size) in 10mm?
(http://gastatic.com/UserImages/5257/935238766/pop_wm_2128706.jpg)
Under 500 bucks.
Of course, I may wait for Vltor to start delivering thier version of the "bren 10".
Don't know about "compact" or "10mm" but I have the .45 cal version and it is SWEET!
I think that asking around to friends and going to the range with them and giving different models a good 20-30 test fire is way better than anything. Guns are like cars. A different fit for everyone. Test firing like test driving is the way to go.
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just out of interest how many mountain bikers been attacked by grizzlys in the last 10 years?
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That is helpful, thanks. The biggest reason I don't carry my .357 is it's weight. How much does your Glock20 weigh?
What rounds do you load for 4 legged and 2 legged?
The weight: http://www.glockfaq.com/content.aspx?ckey=Glock_FAQ_Glock_Model_Guide#g20
Curious as to what you shoot as well since the Glock weighs so little. My 10mm is a S&W 1006, so it's a brick in comparison.
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If it's just for bear defense bring a slow friend :aok
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If it's just for bear defense bring a slow friend :aok
:rofl :lol :rofl :lol
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That is helpful, thanks. The biggest reason I don't carry my .357 is it's weight. How much does your Glock20 weigh?
What rounds do you load for 4 legged and 2 legged?
Glock states it weighs 39oz loaded http://www.glock.com/english/index_pistols.htm
I put a Stainless steel Guide rod on it and heavier recoil spring so it is a little heavier. Double Tap is supposed to be very Hot Rounds so that is why i put the heavier spring in it. What the 10mm is supposed to be at not the water down versions you see in the store.
For 4 legged I have the double tap 200 grn hard cast bullets.
http://www.doubletapammo.com/php/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=21_25&products_id=105
It will do the job on most critters you will find in the US. There is on going debate on grizzlies. Do a google search on it and you will find it is a hot topic. I feel shot placement and bullet penetration is the key, and think it will do just fine.
for 2 legged I either carry
135 grn Corbon for the house (dont want to go threw to many walls)
http://www.shopcorbon.com/Self-Defense-JHP/10mm-Auto-135gr-CORBON-Self-Defense-JHP/SD10135-20/100/Product
Or when I am CCW or in the woods I carry
Double Tap 150 grn
http://www.doubletapammo.com/php/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=21_25&products_id=396
I did not know much about the 10mm untill I did some research. It is a very versital bullet when loaded right will be between .357 and .41 mag power. Probably my favorite gun to shoot, and I have a 1911 and Sig 228 9mm. I love the recoil of it which I think isnt to bad. Like I said I shoot it extremely well. Not as good as the 1911 (who doesnt shoot it well) or my Sig, but still surprisingly good.
Here is a great website that tells you everything you need to know about the 10mm.
http://www.bren-ten.com/website/id7.html
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The weight: http://www.glockfaq.com/content.aspx?ckey=Glock_FAQ_Glock_Model_Guide#g20
Curious as to what you shoot as well since the Glock weighs so little. My 10mm is a S&W 1006, so it's a brick in comparison.
I have a Springfield TRP 1911 which anyone can shoot the center out of with there eyes closed. I also have a Sig p228.
When I bought my Glock 20 a year ago I was at a very popular gun store in Illinois no one at the store every shot the 10mm except the owner and a couple managers. So a couple of the sales guys and I went to the range bought a couple boxes of American Eagle 200 gr target rounds. Now you have to remember those American Eagle Rounds are water down and not the full power stuff the FBI couldn't handle. We all were waiting for a big kick with it but really it was a comfortable kick. I dont know if it is the Glock grip angle or the lower bore axis but it was really fun to shoot.
The reason why I went with the Glock and not a revolver is because I can not shoot a revolver for the life of me. I tried a Ruger Redhawk Alaskan .44 mag, S&W 629 N frame and could not shoot it well. Even the hotter loads of the Double Tap ammo was a lot easier and more comfortable to shoot. I went with the Stainless steel Guide rod for a little extra weight and a 20 lbs spring to help with the recoil and wear and tear. Still with the Glock stock was not that bad. With those two little mods that cost like $35 total made a pleasant gun to shoot, to making it almost a dream to shoot. Still nothing beats a well made 1911.
My Glock is my hiking canoeing gun that is why I bought it. I love it to just as much as my 1911 and Sig. I dont mind beating up my Glock because it was only $498 NIB (law enforcement discount) hence why I got it. Where as if I scratch up my 1911 or Sig It bothers the hell out of me.
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someone drank the Glock kool-aid. :rofl :lol :rofl :lol :rofl :lol :rofl :lol :rofl :bhead
Glock does not offer a gun that fits what the O/P wants.
I still stand by my SW 686+ (.357 Mag) w/ a 4in barrel.
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someone drank the Glock kool-aid. :rofl :lol :rofl :lol :rofl :lol :rofl :lol :rofl :bhead
Glock does not offer a gun that fits what the O/P wants.
I still stand by my SW 686+ (.357 Mag) w/ a 4in barrel.
Oh trust me I did not drink the Glock Kool-aid. I hate Glock never thought I would own one. I think there is nothing special about them. I bought it because it met my needs. Which was a less expensive gun I can take to the woods and be reliable and fired a good powerful round.
I did drink the 10mm Kool-aid and it tasted good. :cheers:
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Must... not... rant....
Well, I can't hold back... here comes my rant. :old:
I just as big a gun nut as the next guy here, I own several...
BUT... carrying a handgun in the backcountry for "bear defense" is just plain silly and stupid.
First point... bears, be they Grizzly or Black are just not that aggressive. I would dare say I've spent more nights deep in bear country then most here, I worked as a backcountry guide in Yellowstone for 2 summers and the Wind Rivers for 5 summers, along with dozens of personal backpacking trips. I've been up close with black bears and grizzlies many times, and I've never had them act aggressively at all. (Moose are a different story however. )
Contrary to popular belief, bears don't spend all day wandering around looking for hikers and boy scouts to eat, many bears will quickly vacate the area when they sense humans near (through smell, hearing or sight). The bears that don't leave, also don't seem to be bothered at all by people.
I was in a swimming hole in a river in the Winds once when a black bear walked right up, and sat on the opposite bank watching us swim, then after about 10 minutes he got bored and wandered over to a log to dig some grubs. Another time I had a grizzly walk right through our camp at dawn, I woke up when I heard something knock over some gear by my tent, I thought it was one of the boys gonna drop my tent, so I rolled over, unzipped the door and stuck my head out to find it less then 3 feet from a grizzly bear shoulder. I was pretty shocked, :eek: but I lay back down quietly and listened to the grizzly wander around camp a bit, soon enough he left without doing any damage except to a can of deet. These are just two of a dozen or more bear encounters I've had.
Point is that you have a better chance of death or serious injury in the backcountry from dozens of other causes (falling, hypothermia, hyperthermia, poison plants, lightning, bee stings whatever) then from bear attack.
Second point... In the unlikely event that a bear does become aggressive, bear spray is much more effective at stopping a charging bear of any size then any handgun. (bonus is it's non-lethal as well) I know people won't believe me, but I've seen personally what that spray can do when a stupid boy scout decided to let some loose, it is NASTY stuff, several times more potent then the pepper spray the police use. Several accounts tell of bears taking several bullets without stopping, plus when you're scared poopless with a large bear charging at you how accurate is your aim gonna be??? Bear spray however has been very, very effective, and you don't need to aim it, just point in the general direction and let it go. When I was guiding in the Wind Rivers, I was required by the USFS to carry bear spray, fortunately I've never had to use it. But it is lighter and easier to carry then a handgun as well.
If your backpacking in USFS designated wilderness land, or National Parks they usually have their own laws against firearms anyway. (which I don't agree with but that would get rule #14) Besides who wants to carry that extra weight anyway.
Summary... if you really want protection from bears and other wild animals in the backcountry, be smart, give wildlife plenty of space, don't get between a sow and cub (or food), store you food and smellables properly, AND leave the gun at home and spend $70 on a can of bear spray instead. :old:
I've lived around bears for most of my life and fortunately have never had to defend myself from one, but if I did have to, I think I would rather have the .357 over the bear mace. That and I'm more concerned with the two legged animals. I did have to leave a beach on the lake once because a bear wanted to join our picnic. It can be difficult to give the wildlife a wide berth when they come to you. I will say I have great respect for what a bear can do even a small one, and have no desire to needlessly kill any wild animal.
Also the USFS ban on firearms was lifted a while back.
BTW the blacks around here are closer to 40 mph and they can clear a three wire fence without breaking stride.
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desert eagle is my reccomendation (NO NOT REALLY)
for revolvers try a .357 or a .44 magnum
for a semi-auto pistol id try a .45 or a 9mm.
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Depends on what ya want it for really. For target practice go with a 22 for basic home defence i use a 9mm( cheap and affordable ammo and leathal at close range) if you just want to overcomensate for something get a desert eagle or 45 etc lol.
I have over 30 weapons of differnt makes models etc but my hand gun of choice for basic use is the 9mm.
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My cousin does outfitting in Idaho and Montana for elk hunts. Bears are a problem, and he carries no less than a 44 Magnum. He also carries industrial strength pepper spray. If a bear is after you any handgun is a feeble attempt at deterrence because a bear would close the distance so quickly if it decides to get you - he actually had to use pepper spray on a black bear once that was rummaging in his camp, he says had it been a brown bear he'd have been toast.
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Interesting on the 200gr round. That wasn't around when I last bought my share of Doubletap Ammo. I'm a bit of an ammo hoarder, so I stockpiled a bunch when it was $20-$22 per box from them.
My first experience with the 10mm was my friend's Delta Elite, and what's not to love about shooting a 1911 style in 10mm? :) I almost purchased a Dan Wesson 10mm a few years back, but stopped short of doing so.
I really like my S&W 1006. I have 180gr Doubletap Gold Dots in it now, but I'm going to change.
The 10mm is probably my favorite round to shoot, besides 5.56.
(Sorry for the brief digression from the OT)
For 4 legged I have the double tap 200 grn hard cast bullets.
http://www.doubletapammo.com/php/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=21_25&products_id=105
It will do the job on most critters you will find in the US. There is on going debate on grizzlies. Do a google search on it and you will find it is a hot topic. I feel shot placement and bullet penetration is the key, and think it will do just fine.
for 2 legged I either carry
135 grn Corbon for the house (dont want to go threw to many walls)
http://www.shopcorbon.com/Self-Defense-JHP/10mm-Auto-135gr-CORBON-Self-Defense-JHP/SD10135-20/100/Product
Or when I am CCW or in the woods I carry
Double Tap 150 grn
http://www.doubletapammo.com/php/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=21_25&products_id=396
I did not know much about the 10mm untill I did some research. It is a very versital bullet when loaded right will be between .357 and .41 mag power. Probably my favorite gun to shoot, and I have a 1911 and Sig 228 9mm. I love the recoil of it which I think isnt to bad. Like I said I shoot it extremely well. Not as good as the 1911 (who doesnt shoot it well) or my Sig, but still surprisingly good.
Here is a great website that tells you everything you need to know about the 10mm.
http://www.bren-ten.com/website/id7.html
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We are all over looking it....
the true answer is FLAMETHROWER! - duh :rock
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We are all over looking it....
the true answer is FLAMETHROWER! - duh :rock
The newest thing in shops around me is the "Bear Flare". It looks a lot like the little road flares that come in your car's safety kit, but costs a lot more. It's sold by the same company that sells the bear spray.
I really think they should sell a combo pack with a holster that conveniently positions the flare directly infront of the bear spray nozzle. :devil
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PS--Please don't get me wrong. Glocks are fine weapons. Glocks DO have a different trigger and trigger feel but it takes some range target practice to get used to the Glock trigger and feel. Some people can't hit a barn from 25' with a Glock until they get used to it. Those who use it on a regular basis and have invested the range time know what an excellent side arm it is.
I've shot .38's, 9's, 10's, and (as a personal preference) love the .45. It's ALL personal preference though, so go test-drive as many different types you can before deciding.
I don't care if it's going to go through a burglar/home invader and tear up my wall. That's what Home Depot is for. I'll have to go there to get stuff to clean up all the blood stains and broken front door after the cops leave anyway.
(That is unless the German Shepherds didn't tear him to shreads first befire I had a chance to air condition him with .45 ACP.)