Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Wishlist => Topic started by: alpini13 on May 01, 2011, 09:29:44 AM
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I have seen a lot of post concerning more flak at bases,or tank destroyers etc.....until more of that becomes available how about a towable 88 flak(towed by the german halftrack already in the game) that can fire AP.HE,and AA rounds with proximity fuse,maybe smoke as well.
It would be easy to destroy as it is an open manned gun,but difficult to find .it would have no icon when deployed as man guns in the game have no icon. but when trailered it would have a std vehicle icon and can be spotted from air or tower,etc.
It would need time to deploy(like the re-arm pad takes time)maybe 30-45 sec. it could not carry supplies of any sort and no troops(halftrack would be used for ords and crew to operate the 88Flak
To deploy,use the O key to open doors and O again to deploy,and another key to trailer and O to close doors.
I know 30-45 sec is not a believable deployment time,and neither is 30secs to re-arm and re-fuel a plane or a box of supplies that can turn a tank back over from its side in 2 secs. but it is a game,and would work well,deal with it .
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The 88 did not have proximity fuses.
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Thanks Lusche :aok
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The trailer concept is unnecessary - there is a version of the German sdkfz halftrack with an 88mm gun mounted on it. I made a posting on this with a picture of the thing a while back (you can search the BBS for it).
The big problem is as described - there are no proximity AA fuses for the 88. They used a time fuse setting that was set so that the round would explode at a certain altitude. Since they had optical rangefinders at the battery, they could come up with a pretty good estimate of the altitude of passing bombers, but we have no such capability in AH. I could see the ability to set the round with a dot command (either a .fuse <time> or a .alt <altitude of detonation>) setting. A quick and dirty rangefinder could be approximated by creating a gunsight image based on aircraft type (hashmarks of wingspan for a particular aircraft at a certain height).
If such a gun were implemented though, I think it should cause damage to friendlies as well. An exploding shell should not care if you are Bish, Knight, or Rook.
$.02
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If such a gun were implemented though, I think it should cause damage to friendlies as well. An exploding shell should not care if you are Bish, Knight, or Rook.
There's a reason why friendly fire by players is off. And no reason why it should be different for the 88 than for any other player controlled gun in game ;)
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There is a reason why flak gunners stopped shooting when friendly fighters attacked. It really is gamey if a bunch of 88 gunners are blasting away into a furball of friendly and enemy fighters.
Frankly, I could lose the prohibition vs friendly fire. We seem to be able to get along pretty well in FSO without it. I know we'll get some jerks that go to some side to bomb their own CV or something stupid, but a system message on every friendly fire kill would quickly identify those folks, and the scorn of the community would soon follow.
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Frankly, I could lose the prohibition vs friendly fire. We seem to be able to get along pretty well in FSO without it.
FSO is an entirely different beast than the MA. You are in uniform, it's highly structured, you have clear rules that are being enforced by CM's. The MA is a unstructured are full of n00bs, no rules and no one there to enforce them anyway. How about approaching the runway in your highly perked 262 with a lot of kills just be be blown to pieces by either
- a 2 weeker who doesn't know better ("Yayyy my first kill!")
- another player simply holding a grudge against you (maybe you just didn't follow his "orders" and now he wants to show you what he thinks of "furballers")
- or simply someone who does, because he can.
There is no way to enable friendly fire and not turn the MA into total chaos.
And by the way:
There is a reason why flak gunners stopped shooting when friendly fighters attacked.
Very often they did not. Flak gunners tended to shoot first, ask questions later... if any. See the Luftwaffe's operation Bodenplatte ...
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There is no way to enable friendly fire and not turn the MA into total chaos.
And by the way:
Very often they did not. Flak gunners tended to shoot first, ask questions later... if any. See the Luftwaffe's operation Bodenplatte ...
Bodenplatte was kind of a clusterf*** on the part of the Luftwaffe. If you don't alert your own flak batteries, then you get what you get when friendlies fly over. During 'normal' operations vs american daylight bombing, there was much better air-ground coordination.
I can see what you mean in the MA for friendly fire, but that still leaves the a big problem for the 88 then. The 88 really is a 'puffy ack' weapon - the number of aircraft directly hit is very low compared to the number damaged by explosion and shrapnel. Maybe the solution is to enable friendly fire for puffy ack only, but you might still get the noobs and idiots sitting on a friendly airbase popping off puffy ack at landing aircraft. I wonder what the minimum altitude for an 88 round detonation would be?
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Friendly fire works for the auto-guns. The auto-gunners are generally good enough leads that they don't hit friendlies very often but it does happen.
wrongway
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The 88 did not have proximity fuses.
The 88 did have proximity fuses, it was the main gun that Germany used to destroy the American Bombers.
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The 88 did have proximity fuses, it was the main gun that Germany used to destroy the American Bombers.
It was the main AA gun, but still never used any kind of proximity fuses. EagleDNY explained the actual fusing.
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Shells were time fuzed in the manner Erik Shilling described. It took the
88mm shell apprx. 20 seconds to reach its maximum effective altitude of
20,000 ft., so the fuze delay was set at 20 seconds. A Kommandogerat
optical predictor was used to determine the azimuth, slant range,
elevation and time setting.
From 1943, visual aiming was done by salvoing into a predetermined "box"
through which the bombers were predicted to pass.
Fortunately, the Germans never developed proximity fuzes, as the allies
did.
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And this is how the fuses were set:
(http://img72.exs.cx/img72/784/ZnderstellerFlak18-36-37.jpg)
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well ofcourse they didnt have proximity fuses...but for the sake of game play the prox fuse would simulate the timed fuse range finder portion of the process, the key here is as a vehicle it would have an icon,as a manned gun it wouldnt......and so it could defend a base,town, spawn or attack the enemies that be at the base and spawn points. it would be easy to kill but difficult to find and pack a powerful punch.
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There is a reason why flak gunners stopped shooting when friendly fighters attacked. It really is gamey if a bunch of 88 gunners are blasting away into a furball of friendly and enemy fighters.
Frankly, I could lose the prohibition vs friendly fire. We seem to be able to get along pretty well in FSO without it. I know we'll get some jerks that go to some side to bomb their own CV or something stupid, but a system message on every friendly fire kill would quickly identify those folks, and the scorn of the community would soon follow.
You realize this renders the gun obsolete.
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perk proxy fuses
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well ofcourse they didnt have proximity fuses...but for the sake of game play the prox fuse would simulate the timed fuse range finder portion of the process, the key here is as a vehicle it would have an icon,as a manned gun it wouldnt......and so it could defend a base,town, spawn or attack the enemies that be at the base and spawn points. it would be easy to kill but difficult to find and pack a powerful punch.
Sorry, -1 for easy mode.
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easy mode? oh you mean like the old tank steering system....that got too hard and look at all the whining,sp much so ,they are going back to the EASY mode. nuff said about that :lol
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Who's whining about tank controls?..proximity fuses are easy mode...period, end of statement.
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I'd love to see a meter on the side and a bar going up and down. Like a T-34 gunsight you hit C or V to adjust that bar. It would go from 20k down to whatever the safe minimum was (1k?)
You adjust as you reload and constantly adjust for moving targets. No proxy fuze, but it will explode at the alt you specify.
That would be awesome...
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I'd love to see a meter on the side and a bar going up and down. Like a T-34 gunsight you hit C or V to adjust that bar. It would go from 20k down to whatever the safe minimum was (1k?)
You adjust as you reload and constantly adjust for moving targets. No proxy fuze, but it will explode at the alt you specify.
That would be awesome...
+1 good thinkin'
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wow,krusty hit that one right on the head...and it really would be fantastic!
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Easy solution for 88 is to use throttle to determine "detonation timing" or distance.
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Easy solution for 88 is to use throttle to determine "detonation timing" or distance.
Now where have I heard that one before. :devil
Ya beat me to it.
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There is a reason why flak gunners stopped shooting when friendly fighters attacked. It really is gamey if a bunch of 88 gunners are blasting away into a furball of friendly and enemy fighters.
For the most part, flak gunners didn't stop firing at all and it was usually the fighter pilot's responsibility not to fly in the "flak zone" to avoid being hit by friendly fire.
For example...US Navy DEFCAPs over the fleets...do you really think the fleet AA gunners stopped firing at the attacking Japanese planes as soon as Hellcats and Wildcats appeared? Hell no.
ack-ack
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I'd love to see a meter on the side and a bar going up and down. Like a T-34 gunsight you hit C or V to adjust that bar. It would go from 20k down to whatever the safe minimum was (1k?)
You adjust as you reload and constantly adjust for moving targets. No proxy fuze, but it will explode at the alt you specify.
That would be awesome...
Right at the beginning of this last development cycle, HT made a proof of concept test version of this that worked pretty much like that except with a numerical range readout. I practiced on it a bit and it's difficult but workable. There's still some other issues to work out in order to see it move forward. If implemented, it wouldn't replace the proximity fuzes on the current fleet but could be used for 88's and on different ships.
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I belive the man deserves a toaster. :D
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If implemented, it wouldn't replace the proximity fuzes on the current fleet but could be used for 88's and on different ships.
Since you mentioned "on different ships" does this mean there is some thought being put in about adding non-Allied ships?
ack-ack
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Im a little lost about these types of AA. What were the differences between proxy fuses and timed fuses? How were, and where would they be used? I thought most major militaries during the war used radio technology so when the round came within a distance it would explode. :headscratch:
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Since you mentioned "on different ships" does this mean there is some thought being put in about adding non-Allied ships?
ack-ack
LCT(R) :noid
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LCT(R) :noid
What part of "non-Allied ships" is hard to understand? A ship that saw service with both the USN and British Royal Navy hardly counts as a "non-Allied" ship.
ack-ack
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What part of "non-Allied ships" is hard to understand? A ship that saw service with both the USN and British Royal Navy hardly counts as a "non-Allied" ship.
ack-ack
M-18? :D
Sorry pal just misread
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Now where have I heard that one before. :devil
Ya beat me to it.
lol not quick enough, imediately what I thought too.
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Im a little lost about these types of AA. What were the differences between proxy fuses and timed fuses? How were, and where would they be used? I thought most major militaries during the war used radio technology so when the round came within a distance it would explode. :headscratch:
Read This (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proximity_fuze)
wrongway
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Thanks for all the good work and info pyro,im glad to see we are going in the right direction.Theres been alot of talk of sp and tank detroyers here and i know each one requires alot of development.I though that the flak 88 used in antitank/aircraft role would be a great addition until those others are ready,and with the german halftrack already in the game we have a tow vehicle,instead of modelling the german prime mover artillery tractor(the unarmoured halftrack).
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For the most part, flak gunners didn't stop firing at all and it was usually the fighter pilot's responsibility not to fly in the "flak zone" to avoid being hit by friendly fire.
For example...US Navy DEFCAPs over the fleets...do you really think the fleet AA gunners stopped firing at the attacking Japanese planes as soon as Hellcats and Wildcats appeared? Hell no.
ack-ack
Exactly my point - if the friendly fighters don't have to worry about being hit by friendly fire, they might as well just sit around in the puffy ack all day. Thats the 'gamey' bit. In the context of this thread (since we are talking about 88 fire) I am thinking more about german interceptors and the huge flak areas faced by American B-17 and B-24 groups during daylight raids. They pretty much knew that they were in for fighters as soon as the flak stopped, and if the fighters suddenly disappeared it was a sure sign of a flak barrage to follow.
As USN Defcap is a different animal altogether as far as flak is concerned since they did have proximity fused ordnance. Again, a flying shell doesn't give a hoot who it is near when it gets that trigger signal so it is up to the pilot to exercise discretion. The point of the defcap is to engage inbound aircraft well away from the fleet, which is why the USN had radar picket destroyers so far out in their formations. I remember reading in the Battle of the Philipine Sea the pickets detected Japanese aircraft 150 miles out, and interception occurred 70 miles out.
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Right at the beginning of this last development cycle, HT made a proof of concept test version of this that worked pretty much like that except with a numerical range readout. I practiced on it a bit and it's difficult but workable. There's still some other issues to work out in order to see it move forward. If implemented, it wouldn't replace the proximity fuzes on the current fleet but could be used for 88's and on different ships.
If you can give us an 88 that has ammo that explodes with a numerical range readout, that solves this problem right off.
Now all we have to do is have the discussion on the lethality of puffy ack in AH....
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Exactly my point - if the friendly fighters don't have to worry about being hit by friendly fire, they might as well just sit around in the puffy ack all day. Thats the 'gamey' bit. In the context of this thread (since we are talking about 88 fire) I am thinking more about german interceptors and the huge flak areas faced by American B-17 and B-24 groups during daylight raids. They pretty much knew that they were in for fighters as soon as the flak stopped, and if the fighters suddenly disappeared it was a sure sign of a flak barrage to follow.
As USN Defcap is a different animal altogether as far as flak is concerned since they did have proximity fused ordnance. Again, a flying shell doesn't give a hoot who it is near when it gets that trigger signal so it is up to the pilot to exercise discretion. The point of the defcap is to engage inbound aircraft well away from the fleet, which is why the USN had radar picket destroyers so far out in their formations. I remember reading in the Battle of the Philipine Sea the pickets detected Japanese aircraft 150 miles out, and interception occurred 70 miles out.
You can take friendly fire from your own ack.
HiTech
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This is nice a nice touch concerning friendly fire.
I was wondering how the puffy ack arrives where it eventually explodes.
It seems that the ack explodes semi-randomly about your plane about the same distance away regardless of flying straight and level or carving up the sky at 400mph at super high altitude.
I would think that a reversal after the gun has fired would cause the ack to end up further away but it seems not the case.
Is this because anything less accurate would allow people to loiter over enemy ships or strats for much too long resulting in unfair milk runs that cause too much opportunity to damage the enemy?
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Since you mentioned "on different ships" does this mean there is some thought being put in about adding non-Allied ships?
ack-ack
that would be nice...Yamato class...Bismarck Class... but no LCT (R) :bolt:
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Now where have I heard that one before. :devil
Ya beat me to it.
I flew a long time and apparently gunned very ineffectively without knowing the throttle controlled altitude/time delay of ack detonation but, once I did, I started writing nasty things with the ack smoke to the attackers.................... usually oriented so they could read it from above.
Here, I just write "LOL" with the ship convoy headings program whenever I see one headed toward a sure suicide.
(http://princemakaha.homestead.com/files/ice.jpg)
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I flew a long time and apparently gunned very ineffectively without knowing the throttle controlled altitude/time delay of ack detonation but, once I did, I started writing nasty things with the ack smoke to the attackers.................... usually oriented so they could read it from above.
Here at aces high, I just write "LOL" with the ship convoy waypoints whenever I see one headed toward a sure suicide.
(http://princemakaha.homestead.com/files/ice.jpg)