Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Custom Skins => Topic started by: Knite on May 01, 2011, 06:01:29 PM
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Hello Everyone,
This aircraft was flown by American Ace Joe Forster with the 475th "Satan's Angels". He is one of 10 aces to come from this group with a confirmed 9 kills, as well as 3 "probables". He once flew 900 miles home after losing his left engine with a total mission time of over 8 hours in his aircraft. It has been "suggested" that the skin was in need of some TLC, and my hope is that this update still honors his hard work as one of the United States' best pilots of the war.
(http://khrymsyn.infinited.net/Aces%20High/2011_May/Florida_redux_20110501_a.jpg)
(http://khrymsyn.infinited.net/Aces%20High/2011_May/Florida_redux_20110501_b.jpg)
(http://khrymsyn.infinited.net/Aces%20High/2011_May/Florida_redux_20110501_c.jpg)
As with any skin I've ever submitted, please let me know what you think (preferrably with advice, and not just saying "it sucks" or something similar). I may not always make requested "stylistic" changes, but accuracy and general "looks" is always very important to me, as what's the point in filling up a skin slot with something no one will fly? What do you all think? Should this replace the original?
Thanks!
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Looks good :aok
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Sweet !
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Very nice. I like it.
The only thing I can think of without seeing a picture is to double check the brightness of the yellow. In the above pics, the yellow really jumps out.
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I think the fuel overflow stains are too dark and overdone - I don't think the stains would be that noticeable. (A lot of early skins way overdid fuel spill stains and gun muzzle exhaust stains - everybody was doing it).
EDIT: (removing comment about what I thought were gun port shadows - I see now you're doing the black outline of the gun ports - thanks, lyric)
I think the black of the antiglare areas look too dark, esp on the bottom pic.
The boom access hatches should be on the left side of each boom only. P-38Ls had underwing blisters for fuel pump housing. Check out the panel lines on one of my P-38Ls real closely - I think its about as accurate as we have (only because Fester didn't do an 'L'). Also check out Cactuskooler's 38L - I think his panel lines are very accurate too. And examine the treatment of the back of the radiator housing on the booms. Look closely at one of Fester's 38Js and you'll see what I mean.
The black/yellow kill marker area border doesn't follow the contour of the inner wing fillet well enough on the left side of the cockpit as it does on the right side.
Your spark plug blast tubes are brilliant--much better than mine, as is the rivet detail (I decided dark rivets are they way to go on a natural metal skin - mine are light and way overdone). There seems to be an extra panel line near the tube though, on the access panel - if you are trying to show a depressed or curved area you may be able to do it with shading alone in not have a panel line through a piece of panel that is supposed to be a solid piece.
One of the things Fester was trying to get us to do is show the deformation of the metal skin along the areas where rivets fasten the skin to the ribs underneath. You just use a light line on one side of the rivets and a darker line on the other side it and it gives the impression of the aluminum skin depressed slightly along the rivet line. Cactuskooler's Dizzy Rebel shows this effect very well I think.
You can also do this glare/shadow deformation shading on the gun bay access panel fastening screws on the nose - I've tried to do all this on my later '38 skins but haven't been totally pleased with the result.
You can put light scratches glare lines along some of the edges of access panels - this might breakup the weathering/grime pattern a bit and reinforce the illusion that the panel sections are different pieces of metal.
This is your baby, <S> for making the effort to improve her.
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Here is the Benchmark to go by.
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/forster.jpg)
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/p38floridac.jpg)
http://www.aerothentic.com/photos/noseart/p38/p38-florida_cracker.html
I cant be real critical here as I can't skin at all. However your nose art has some colour issues in that they are the wrong colour for the wording it appears to be a blue colour not black. No yellow trim around the complete black portion of the nose. The black portion of the nose appears to be glossy black on the sides where the engine panels appear to be Matt black as well as on top of the nose of the aircraft.
Your yellow is to bright may be a deeper canary yellow?
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/airplanepictures_2152_145003486.jpg)
http://www.roygrinnell.com/florida%20cracker.htm
I think this profile is about as close as it gets with the exception of the Matt anti glare panels :aok Maybe the complete yellow trim was added later on the nose? After looking at both photos I think the yellow is only partially painted on. It appears to be wrapping around the front of the wings & along the bottom of the black portion on the nose & the seems to peter out some spot near the bottom of the radius as it heads back up vertically?
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/3_88.jpg)
The spinners are clearly metal finish not white.
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/aceforster.jpg)
Your skin is a million times better than anything I can do so I can only be critical of what is clearly obvious in terms of markings & colour. Sorry if I come off to harsh.
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Lyric, in the color picture you provided, the spinner appears to be painted white. In the black and white photo, the spinner appears to be metal finish. Perhaps when Joe Forster scored more victories, he painted his spinner tip white?
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Knite,
I love your bare metal finish effects, especially with the shadowing and reflection is concerned. However, remember that many people will be in cockpit mode as they fly this skin. I would make the panel lines a bit more visible, particularly around the engines and areas visible from the cockpit. Another thing to check are the panel lines as they meet where the wing root and engine connects. Take a look at Cactus' or Fester's skin from the cockpit and look left or right. You will see some panel lines that run from the wing to engine. These lines are either not present, or visible from the screenshots you provided us with.
Basically bring out the panel lines a tad bit more, and add some subtle detail around the cockpit so as to improve the immersion factor as you are sitting inside the cockpit. All of the other comments above are great as well!
Best of luck!
:salute
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Knite,
I love your bare metal finish effects, especially with the shadowing and reflection is concerned. However, remember that many people will be in cockpit mode as they fly this skin. I would make the panel lines a bit more visible, particularly around the engines and areas visible from the cockpit. Another thing to check are the panel lines as they meet where the wing root and engine connects. Take a look at Cactus' or Fester's skin from the cockpit and look left or right. You will see some panel lines that run from the wing to engine. These lines are either not present, or visible from the screenshots you provided us with.
Basically bring out the panel lines a tad bit more, and add some subtle detail around the cockpit so as to improve the immersion factor as you are sitting inside the cockpit. All of the other comments above are great as well!
Best of luck!
:salute
+1 to this. I also agree that the yellow knob needs to be turned down a smidge. In the pictures it appears to be more of a mustard yellow than a true, bright Yellow. Nice job otherwise. :aok
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My major complaint, aside from the yellow, is one that a number of folks seem to have problems with at some point or another.
Your seams don't blend.
There are points where 2 different parts of the bitmap border each other. I call them seams. For example the tops of your booms have a HARD and noticable shift in color along their spines because the colors left and right do not mesh properly.
You have to work both the left and right side repeatedly, alternating or just choosing one. Adjust, preview, repeat. Keep working until the transition is nearly flawless.
Other than that, it doesn't seem all that refined around the black nose markings. For example, the real yellow outline and the black fill-in were "cut out" to match the curve of the wing root, but not to touch the wing root. On yours the black does not match this curve/shape and it is actually covered up by the wing attaching to the fuselage.
This will change the proportions of the room you have to work with, making you need to shrink down your kill flags and such to fit the smaller space when you are done. Also the leading edge of the black on top of the nose extends a bit too far forward as compared to the stuff Lyric posted.
Then we have the gun barrel outlines. I don't want to be mean, but I will be honest: They look bad. Very bad. It's not your FAULT they look bad, though. It's the nature of the skin, the number of pixels you have to work with, and the way they wrap around the nose. In such a case you have a decision to make: You either leave them OUT, knowing that this is inaccurate, but knowing that you cannot get them to look good, or you leave them IN, knowing that they detract from the quality of your finished skin. Skinner's decision.
Aside from that, I think I agree with the other comments about weathering and the panel lines. I'm not a huge fan of over-defined panel lines, but I think yours are too underdefined for this particular plane.
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Thanks everyone for the help! Completely appreciated =) Obviously actual work done will have to wait until I'm home from work, and with the amount of suggestions may be a couple of days before new screenies, but since I'm reading the thread, I figured I'd throw a few responses out there first ;-)
#1. Squadron colors, nose art, gun port "black". I promise, I'll change the yellow. hahaha. I've been struggling getting a yellow I liked that also showed up well against the metal. Looks like I got more tweaking to do. The coloration of the front of the spinners (Metal or White?) as well as the text (green? Black? Blue?) are very curious to me. I have 2 pictures in color of FC where the text looked black on yellow, and one where it looked kinda... greenish (maybe blue) on yellow, and it's been difficult to tell what is the definite colors. I DO know that the coloration is NOT the original "black on red" that I had on my original skin that was pulled from an illustration. The black around the gun ports does definitely look terrible. I'll probably re-do them a couple of more times and if I can't get an effect that I like, maybe I should just get rid of it entirely? The white/metal spinners, I am just not sure. I may just make them a "lighter shade" of metal to split the difference. Opnions?
#2. Anti-Glare / Black issues. Unfortunately, there's nothing I can do about the "glare" on the anti-glare panels, as the original aircraft appeared to have a lot of "matte black" area where our standard skin "shinyness" does not. Always been a problem with this skin, but nothing I can really do a lot about it. HOWEVER, I will try to lighten the black up some more (it's actually way lighter than I started off with on this re-make), and will definitely adjust the curvature near the wing roots.
#3. Misc - Consider the fuel stains "faded". The "extra panel line" that the spark plug blast tube sits "in" is definitely me using some artistic license to show the concave curvature of the metal there. I'll grab another screenie of that section specifically to show. It's one of those things where I had in my mind what I want to convey, but never realized that someone not thinking that way may not interpret it in the same fashion.
#4. Seams. Yes, the ones on the top stink. I guess I just never realized how bad until it was pointed out. Consider it taken a look at =)
#5. Panel lines/rivets. Ok, I'll make them darker, and look at the rivet shading. Believe it or not, it's so "light" because one of the reasons I think the previous version of this skin had serious "detractors" was because the earlier skin the lines and rivets were too.... "impactful"? I.e. too deep and glaring. I wanted to try to get as far away from that as possible but it appears I may have gone too far the other direction.
If I did not directly respond to a comment made in this long post, it hasn't been ignored. Just trying to get a quick response out in appreciation. I'll post again once I can start taking care of a few of the things mentioned. :salute
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You're doing a BMF plane. I will offer this word of advice:
The materials file screws up colors. Do NOT go by the color on your bitmap. Check it in-game. I had to blow the heck out of the saturation and brightness on my B-17G skin, and to a lesser extent on my P-47D25 skin, because the end result in-game was not what I had on the bitmap.
So make the bitmap look UGLY if you have to, as long as it works in-game. This relates to the color choices and the yellow specifically. I found that AH doesn't like certain yellow shades. I've done a number of yellow-nosed planes and still struggle with the right shade. They often turn up more faded and pale neon than the actual bitmap. You can counter this by going for a different shade of yellow. Make it more orange tinted, as a test. Try shifting the shade of yellow to all different areas (maybe add a bit of red to it?) until you find one that works better in-game.
EDIT: This also messed up my BMF efforts as well, requiring me to really enhance a lot of stuff well past the believability point on the bitmap, only to have it barely register in-game. This MAY be why some of your panel lines and such are so subdued. To counter this, just do like I mention above and don't go by what the bitmap looks like, go by what the game displays. That's the result you want to check.
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Regarding the yellow, my rule of thumb is to go for egg yolk over lemon.
NOTE: What happened to the Simmer's Paintshop webpage? I just tried to go there to put a link to the USAAF color swatches and the page is blocked by ads and surveys. It's HORRIBLE.
The panel line by the blast tube - I figured that's what you were trying to do, but I think you might be able to do it with shading alone, without introducing a panel line there.
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Lyric, in the color picture you provided, the spinner appears to be painted white. In the black and white photo, the spinner appears to be metal finish. Perhaps when Joe Forster scored more victories, he painted his spinner tip white?
It is bare metal it is just a brighter finish than the rest of the aircraft & how the light is catching it.
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/propspinner-1.jpg)
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This photo, which I think might be colorized, shows the anti-glare areas as being OD rather than black. The profile and painting Lyric posted shows it the same way. I'm no expert with 475th Lightnings so I can't say for sure one way or another. Might be worth looking into.
(http://i547.photobucket.com/albums/hh473/cactuskooler/Untitled-11-3.jpg)
And the front of the spinners definitely looks bare to me.
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Interesting Cactus, I have the same picture, but the coloration is really different :
(http://khrymsyn.infinited.net/Aces%20High/Screens/p38-florida-cracker-forster.jpg)
It looks to me maybe Matte black vs. Gloss black, though I could see OD as a possibility there? Very tough to tell... but frankly, it definitey points out the "nose top" was lighter in shade than the sides no matter what the reason for it was.
And on spinners, yes, definitely going metallic at this point.
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Well at least ur getting some help instead of insults :)
i agree on the yellow more mustard
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Interesting Cactus, I have the same picture, but the coloration is really different :
(http://khrymsyn.infinited.net/Aces%20High/Screens/p38-florida-cracker-forster.jpg)
It looks to me maybe Matte black vs. Gloss black, though I could see OD as a possibility there? Very tough to tell... but frankly, it definitey points out the "nose top" was lighter in shade than the sides no matter what the reason for it was.
And on spinners, yes, definitely going metallic at this point.
Also shows the yellow border is not all the way around on the nose either.
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The photo Cactus provided definitely looks to have an OD top with the black paint on the sides of the nose. I would think that it would be safe to say that OD paint on the nose top and on the engines were present on almost all combat operational P38s during this time. I would say to go with the standard OD paint with the exception of the black paint used for the nose art.
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:aok
The photo Cactus provided definitely looks to have an OD top with the black paint on the sides of the nose. I would think that it would be safe to say that OD paint on the nose top and on the engines were present on almost all combat operational P38s during this time. I would say to go with the standard OD paint with the exception of the black paint used for the nose art.
:aok
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I apologize it is taking me longer than expected to get a new set of screenshots up. It's one of those scenarios that when I went to change one thing, I didn't like how it affected a 2nd thing, then a 3rd thing, then I wound up scrapping all of those and started over for that section. hahah
Sooooo, yes, I'm doing work, yes, I'm fixing a lot of what's been mentioned. Just a couple of specific notes :
- Gun ports - Still working on the black around them. I MAY have found something that doesn't look nearly as crummy as it did before.
- OD vs. Matte Black - I'm going to set things up with BOTH as possibilities, and put up screenshots for a vote. I've found a couple more pictures of FC but the truth is, all of them are from below where the light shines on the AC in a manner that being able to tell what color it was is almost impossible, so I'm going to setup both.
- I've done extensive work around the cockpit, and not only think I've fixed the issue of the curve around the wing-root, but I think dramatically improved that whole area under the front of the cockpit. Biggest problem I'm having right now is finding the panel that sits directly in front of the cockpit... it's a metal piece that sits on the front windscreen framing, that attaches also to the anti-glare panel... Can't find it, and don't like how it looks currently.
- Seams - undercarriage seams have been checked and I think are ok. Will do screenies later when the rest is set. Top seams are still not done.
- Yellow is now more "gold" than bright yellow, and prop spinners not only are bare metal, but I've added some weathering to the spinner and the prop itself.
- Panel lines - testing a new shading technique... not sure how I feel about it quite yet as I'm not done tweaking. Going to make them definitely a bit more noticable without going near as far as they used to be.
- "Extra panel line around spark tube" - it actually is shading and not lines... They are a separate layer I can turn on and off at least, and may take screens of both ways just for comparison/opinions.
Thanks again for all of the help. Hope my next set of screenies make you feel your opinions and time helping were well spent! :salute
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I'd say OD nose is more likely than solid black. Just based on what I've seen of P-38 pictures.
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- I've done extensive work around the cockpit, and not only think I've fixed the issue of the curve around the wing-root, but I think dramatically improved that whole area under the front of the cockpit. Biggest problem I'm having right now is finding the panel that sits directly in front of the cockpit... it's a metal piece that sits on the front windscreen framing, that attaches also to the anti-glare panel... Can't find it, and don't like how it looks currently.
Here it is!
(http://i547.photobucket.com/albums/hh473/cactuskooler/NoseBit.jpg)
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Thank you thank you thank you! :banana: :banana: :banana:
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I figured I'd have a screenshot up in 2 days... it's been a week and I still have a long way to go, but so far, here's the progress! And it may not look it, but this is a pretty substantial overhaul even from the previous "redone" screenshots in this thread. Some notes :
- I'll fix the "whitewall" front wheel before the next screenshot update. I didn't catch it on my most recent test. oops. :lol
- Thanks to cactus, I'll redo the plating in front of the windscreen with OD when I finally get the rest of the "touches" I want to complete finished.
- Going to go back in and add a panel line here and there thanks to Oboe and more research. Same with more "text" stencils on parts of the aircraft.--
- Seams right now are lining up, but I'm going to go back in and redo some of it as well. It appears that one of the fuselage sides is 1 pixel off from the other, and I can't tell if it's just my paint job, or if it's something with the way the model/texture map is set, but it doesn't matter and is fixable.
- Gun "port" black may, or may not return for next set of screenshots. I've got bigger fish to fry. :)
- I still have the "black" Anti-Glare panels available if people don't like/think the OD is right after seeing this.
This is definitely still a work in progress, so anything you see I got wrong with the changes that I HAVEN'T caught, please feel free to point it out.
(http://khrymsyn.infinited.net/Aces%20High/2011_May/Florida_redux_20110509.jpg)
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:aok
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Good work, Knite. I'll be looking forward to the new screenshots. I also like the OD paint over the matte black. It is more historically accurate, and I think that is the most important part. Good catch on the spinners too. Another thing you might want to look into is making your panels vary in finish. Pick some aluminum panels to look a bit weathered, and some to look more fresh. This gives a better representation of a battle worn P38. Perhaps make the panels slightly different in color.
Remember that many people will be flying this plane from the cockpit. Add tidbits of detail around the cockpit to one-up the immersion factor.
:aok
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Knite,
Is there a way you can "sharpen" the Florida Cracker text in the nose art? It is a bit pixelated, but could just be the resolution issue and the way the skin wraps around the shape. What about the killboard? Could you "sharpen" the images on there?
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Knite,
Is there a way you can "sharpen" the Florida Cracker text in the nose art? It is a bit pixelated, but could just be the resolution issue and the way the skin wraps around the shape. What about the killboard? Could you "sharpen" the images on there?
I'd love to Plaz. The problem with the flags / kill marks is that they are literally 4 pixes by 7 pixels... so unless I make them larger, I haven't figured out a way to make them any more detailed. About the best I can do to "sharpen" them up would be to remove some of the red, and instead go with 6 or 4 lines (like a plus) instead of the sun rays I'm trying to fake currently. Any ideas I may be missing?
I've got a similar problem with the text for the noseart... the font itself is a very angular font, and doesn't lend itself well to lower resolution usage. I'm still working on the text though, but I haven't found anything that looks good, legible, AND invokes a similar feeling to the original text. =(
Also, believe it or not,there are some panels that are slightly lighter and darker, (the panel above the 149, and the one behind the 14, vs the panel behind the 9, the panel behind the mirror on the far side of the cockpit). It's just very subtle. In a few days I'll have some more "specific" screenshots, and a couple from cockpit.
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Fester's eyesore?
Ive avoided this thread because I knew if I saw it on a bad day I would respond.
But I will refrain from my typical blasting standard in overpriced art schools critic I ussually give to anyone who can stand it. I instead will accept that you do this for enjoyment and relaxation and it is fun for you so good for you enjoy yourself.
Know this though...
When it is good work I will tell you. when it is not I will not comment unless its mass produced spam that fills up slots that could be used for artwork that is a joy to look at even to critical eyes.
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Your skin is also missing the 3-slot vents on top of each nacelle, just forward of the turbocharger unit (almost everybody's is) - its a small detail missing from most panel lines. Also do you have real small details like the fastening screws for the small access panels on the upper wing surface, and other places too?
Here's a link to a pdf version of Fester's skinning tutorial. He explains and shows the panel shading technique - even using the '38 as a photo subject.
http://www27.brinkster.com/tjlaven/ah/ (http://www27.brinkster.com/tjlaven/ah/)
You could also try desaturating and/or decreasing the opacity a tad on the noseart/kill flags - I think lack of detail caused by small size jumps out at you more when the image is sharp against the background. Just something to play around with - its gotta be what looks right to you. I do think the plane info text block below the kill board is too thick and dark though.
I've never like the default wheels on the '38. Check out the wheels in the image below. You might be able to grab it and use it. The number of spokes is different (fewer) and I think its a cleaner look:
(http://i225.photobucket.com/albums/dd148/tjlaven/p-38j-panel-line-detail2.jpg)(http://i225.photobucket.com/albums/dd148/tjlaven/p-38j-panel-line-detail.jpg)
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Real quick response for ya Oboe =)
The screenies you included are actually my biggest panel reference. I tend to cross check with pictures of 38s I have, but the screens you have here are actually where I got a lot of panel lines from. Now that I think about it though, I do think I've missed some, and I wonder if I stopped due to time, and forgot to go back.
In terms of the Panel shading technique you linked to, I use a slightly different method, but I think that when I changed the opacities of the layers, I screwed something up. I'll go back in and look again.
As far as wheels go, believe it or not, mine are not the stock. =) I have to adjust them again anyway to get rid of that white/silver spot I accidently got on them though, so I'll revisit.
Also, check your PMs. =)
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Thanks, man! Very cool.
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Oboe what book is that picture you posted out of?
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I can't recall what book - something like Fighter Planes of WWII by Donald somebody. Haven't had the book in a long time - sold it between my AH subscriptions. Fool that I am!!!
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I can't recall what book - something like Fighter Planes of WWII by Donald somebody. Haven't had the book in a long time - sold it between my AH subscriptions. Fool that I am!!!
I have that book on my shelf here, Fighters of World War 2 edited by David Donald (ISBN: 1-56799-684-1). Ironically while it lists the P-38 in the table of contents, when you turn to the indicated page you get the Gloster Meteor instead, not sure if it's just my copy of a general problem with a number of the printings.
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I'd love to Plaz. The problem with the flags / kill marks is that they are literally 4 pixes by 7 pixels... so unless I make them larger, I haven't figured out a way to make them any more detailed. About the best I can do to "sharpen" them up would be to remove some of the red, and instead go with 6 or 4 lines (like a plus) instead of the sun rays I'm trying to fake currently. Any ideas I may be missing?
I've got a similar problem with the text for the noseart... the font itself is a very angular font, and doesn't lend itself well to lower resolution usage. I'm still working on the text though, but I haven't found anything that looks good, legible, AND invokes a similar feeling to the original text. =(
I'm no skinner but I think I read this tip somewhere, make the nose art and kill board big and detailed then shrink the whole thing down to the size you need.
That way, all your detailing gets shrunk down to the correct size instead of making it the correct size off the bat.
wrongway
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I have that book on my shelf here, Fighters of World War 2 edited by David Donald (ISBN: 1-56799-684-1). Ironically while it lists the P-38 in the table of contents, when you turn to the indicated page you get the Gloster Meteor instead, not sure if it's just my copy of a general problem with a number of the printings.
I think I have the same one. Big book, right? Table of contents on the dust jacket flap? Mine has the same page errors. I think it even lists a plane that's not in the book!
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hey Cactus great work man, u always find these wierd historical skins from some source lol, see ya up :salute
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hey Cactus great work man, u always find these wierd historical skins from some source lol, see ya up :salute
I think your ball landed in the next fairway over, chief. :cool:
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I think your ball landed in the next fairway over, chief. :cool:
:rofl
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Hey Knite, how is your skin coming along?
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Hey Knite, how is your skin coming along?
Very slow Plazus. The Panel lines are getting an extensive overhaul (close to done), and I'm re-doing my bare metal finish again due to input I've recieved. Once those are done I should be able to start putting out some screenshots again. Real life's interrupted some so it's kind of made things a lot slower than I'd normally like, but I'm hoping to get a good chunk of work in this weekend.
Thanks a ton for showing interest =)