Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Wishlist => Topic started by: Krusty on May 03, 2011, 01:04:25 PM
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Part 1 of this wish:
We need the Sd Kfz 7.
Here is the Sd Kfz 7/1, the primary version I think we need most:
(http://www.reocities.com/Athens/Acropolis/8141/sdkfz7-1.jpg)
This is the same gun as on the Wirbl right now, only without the PANZER strength chassis and the hard-to-kill nature. Essentially it's soft-skinned and can be strafed down with MG fire, like an M3 currently.
This same halftrack frame was quite popular, and over 12,000 were made in all differing forms.
Here is the version that had a 37mm gun (same as the Ostwind, but without the panzer chassis):
(http://www.flamesofwar.com/Portals/0/all_images/german/SP-guns/GE167a.jpg)
Here is the troop transport version:
(http://www.achtungpanzer.com/votw/images/sdkfz7_3.jpg)
Note that it is towing a 88mm flak gun, for possible future AH inclusion.
Here is the transport version:
(http://www.afv-news.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/06/DSC5456-300x155.jpg)
The vehicle reportedly runs 50kmh but other than that I don't know the details.
WHY WE NEED IT: Wish part #2: Perk the Wirble. Perk the ostwind. Whatever you perk them, make the wirb 1.5x whatever the perk on the osty is. So if the osty is a mere 5 perks, make the wirb 10 perks cost.
Addition to make it even better: Wish part #3: Add a reload delay. The player doesn't need to do anything! Just like firing a tank gun, you have to wait x seconds. Make it so you fire 20 rounds and have to wait 2 seconds (a ready crew standing right there waiting to reload the magazines, pop out the old, slide in the new, shouldn't take long). [EDIT: These guns had stick-mags like a BAR rifle that had only 20 rounds in them, they had people standing by to change them repeatedly, and only fired 2 guns while the other 2 were being readied under most conditions] This may or may not be implemented into other things such as aircraft later on, but it is especially needed in the wirb and in the proposed Sd Kfz 7/1 with the same quad gun.
The player can keep holding the trigger down if he/she wants, just like in a sherman. They just have to wait for the reload before the next round(s) leaves the barrel.
This would give us another soft-skin vehicle like the M3 that would double as a flak (2 kinds of flak, even!), yet still run supplies and troops. It also might be interesting to see the troops leaving the benches instead of jumping out the back. It also paves the way for the much-wished-for towed mannable 88mm flak position in the future!
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now that is a useful add on wish... +1
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I like the new reload system idea +1
I don't like the perked wirb and osti idea -1
I'm impartial about the new half track so +0
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+1 to all posted
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+1 to adding the half-tracks (all versions)
-1 to perking Wirbel's or Osties. Need some reasoning for this idea.
-1 to delayed fire due to magazine changing. This would affect more than just the Wirbelwind and Ostwind if I am correct.
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+1 good idear, i likee
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Even if the current flakers dont need to be perked, this car would be an awsome perk farmer.
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+1 to adding the half-tracks (all versions)
-1 to perking Wirbel's or Osties. Need some reasoning for this idea.
-1 to delayed fire due to magazine changing. This would affect more than just the Wirbelwind and Ostwind if I am correct.
Waystin, if you have ever flown within 2k of a wirble and been single-ping-killed you'd know. If you've ever tried to strafe one and survive, you'd know. If you've ever tried to even bomb or rocket one and survive you'd know. More often than not you die and he lives. Looking back (I chose the tour before the arena split as an example) the Osty used to get 40,000 kills a month, the M16 used to get 7,000...
Lately the M16 gets barely 500-600 a tour, the osty in the 2000 range, and the Wirbl in the 20,000+ range.
The wirb is by far the most lethal to aircraft and blows away anything that came before it, making them utterly obsolete.
We have the equivelant of a panzer and a T-34 (but for AA platforms), then get the equivelant of a tigr added but no perk price associated with it.
It deserves a perk, especially if we can say "Take this, same gun, just a bit more vulnerable" in the case of adding the Sd Kfz 7/1 and so forth. If a soft-skinned AA platform gets added with just as effective a loadout, the wirb has no excuse NOT to be perked. It's only unperked right now due to lack of other options.
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-1 to delayed fire due to magazine changing. This would affect more than just the Wirbelwind and Ostwind if I am correct.
I really would like to see it, though it wouldn't affect the Ostie much (slow rate of fire means the loader can keep up with the gun). In the Wirbel, it coul mean a realistic choice for the gunner: Blaze away all four barrel at once and then wait for reloading, or fire continuously by alternating between two pairs of barrels (we already do have that - fire all / fire primary / fire secondary)
And for tanks or ship guns that would mean no instant switching of ammo types anymore :)
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+1 for all points, especially perking the Osti and Wirby. Wirbles were very rare in WWII at best, and I agree compared to the other ones, the wirby is in-game the "Tiger tank" of mobile armoured AA.
Maybe even add one of these with a tiny perk, between the halftrack Krusty posted about and the Wrib (i.e. Sd kfz 7 no perk, Mobilwagen and Osti 2 perks, Wirblewing 3 perks, etc)......
The Mobelwagon
(http://www.anticsonline.co.uk/l.aspx?k=1024954)
(http://ww2photo.mimerswell.com/tanks/d/pz4/flak/07435.jpg)
(http://ww2photo.mimerswell.com/tanks/d/pz4/flak/02349.jpg)
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oooh...a weapon reload option for gv's and ships...short delays for reload and ammo type switching...excellent idea.
missed that tidbit in the op
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+1 To all of this.
As well, it does indeed pave the way for a towed 88 AND perhaps even more fun, towed artillery
of the 15cm and 10.5 cm variety.
The implementation of the towed artillery would, I think, enhance gameplay in a way that
air, naval, and current ground vehicle usage does not.
Some tinkering and "special traits" would be required in order to disallow any gamey-ness
in their use. Perhaps a required amount of time to disengage the gun from the tractor;
another 4-7 minutes to set up the guns themselves; time to re-engage the gun
to the tractor to RTB or move to another position, and lastly, a set time that the
gun and the tractor would be -unable to bail-. (I foresee this as quite important as
without it, the artillery would be used to hammer a town or field and then simply
disappear without a trace after guys 'bailed' or "landed them" prior to the
enemy forces having a chance at destroying them.
Perhaps make these towed weapons dependent upon two players working in unison;
one as driver, one as gun commander.
A "spotter" of some sort would be required in most cases, this could be a jeep, M3, M8,
or a plane. Said plane could "click" on the clipboard field map, and artillery "tuned" to
a particular channel would then see a marker of some sort on their map. Guns
on that frequency would then do the same, "clicking" on that marker to fire into that
area.
Artillery could be used for such things as where massed armor might be (spawn points as an example),
attacking towns and fields, and perhaps even strategic targets such as cities and factories.
They would be "protected" by various types of anti-aircraft vehicles as well as perhaps towed 88s,
and fighters flying in the general area and overhead.
Seems to me like wonderful fun and a great way to extend the options availlable in the
"ground war" aspect of the game.
Regards, Odd
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Waystin, if you have ever flown within 2k of a wirble and been single-ping-killed you'd know. If you've ever tried to strafe one and survive, you'd know. If you've ever tried to even bomb or rocket one and survive you'd know. More often than not you die and he lives. Looking back (I chose the tour before the arena split as an example) the Osty used to get 40,000 kills a month, the M16 used to get 7,000...
Lately the M16 gets barely 500-600 a tour, the osty in the 2000 range, and the Wirbl in the 20,000+ range.
The wirb is by far the most lethal to aircraft and blows away anything that came before it, making them utterly obsolete.
We have the equivelant of a panzer and a T-34 (but for AA platforms), then get the equivelant of a tigr added but no perk price associated with it.
It deserves a perk, especially if we can say "Take this, same gun, just a bit more vulnerable" in the case of adding the Sd Kfz 7/1 and so forth. If a soft-skinned AA platform gets added with just as effective a loadout, the wirb has no excuse NOT to be perked. It's only unperked right now due to lack of other options.
First let me say, I am one of those terrifying Wirbelwind officianados. With that said, I know how to kill them and kill with them. I also know know when to stay away from them. The effective range on the Wirbelwind is about 1.7k (Lusche correct me if need be). It is impossible to get meaningful hits beyond 1.5k. Any WW driver worth their salt will hold fire intil you are inside of what I like to call the "can't escape" umbrella. I would put that range at about 1.0k or so.
I bomb them regularly, but rarely try to turret them with rockets or guns. This is simply suicidal or last ditch option to disable their turret. The two best options for dealing with a Wirbel is a bomb or a tank. Anything else is asking for trouble.
Adding a new GV is not a good reason for creating a perk for an existing vehicle, nor is the declining use of other AA platforms. It is based on it's impact on gameplay. If a perk comes then it would and should be based on what it is doing in game.
:salute
Way
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Ask lusche about the impact it has had on gameplay... It has taken over 90% of all AA kills from the Ostwind and M16. It's as if you introduced the Spit16 and then 9 out of every 10 planes in the game you ran across were spit16s. Even the CHOG got perked with "only" 20% use... This is by far the most lethal AA platform we have.
The Sd Kfz 7 is still needed. Were we to get the 7/1 setup there is no reason to logically suggest in any way that the Wirb (as modeled now) should go unperked, hence I added that as a follow-on wish.
It all presupposes adding this other vehicle. What would be interesting is having the same chassis with both 37mm and 4x20mm options for the gun.
That brings me to another question: Why aren't the Wirb and Osty on the same vehicle? Why are they separate instead of 2 gun options on the same hangar option?
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Adding a new GV is not a good reason for creating a perk for an existing vehicle, nor is the declining use of other AA platforms. It is based on it's impact on gameplay. If a perk comes then it would and should be based on what it is doing in game.
Isn't that pretty much the opposite though of how the perk system is implemented? As I understood it, the perks are based on the potential and ability/performance of a vehicle/airplane, not on what it is actually doing in-game....
I'd never thing the Wirby would ever be worthy of costing something like 5 or more perks, though... bet 2-3 would be about right IMHO.
Hows this.....
Sd Kzf 7/M16 no perk
Mobelwagen/Osti 1 perk
Wirblewind 2 perks
???
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I think the new gv system is only to make modelling GVs easyer. I bet there will be a couple new gvs in the next patch. Cant wait for it : )
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Mobelwagen with 88mm flak gun? Solves the "towed gun" issue with dismounting, setting up, etc...
(http://www.wwiivehicles.com/germany/flak-panzers/flakpanzer/flakpanzer-8.8cm-flak-37-01.jpg)
(http://www.wwiivehicles.com/germany/flak-panzers/flakpanzer/flakpanzer-8.8cm-flak-37-02.jpg)
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The impact that HTC uses as criteria for perking and ENY values is really hard for me to completely extrapolate as I do not completely understand or know it. As I understand the process, it boils down to it overwhelmingly killing more than it's being killed. This is not happening at this time. Further HTC adjusted it's ENY lower last year if I am correct which is already a limiter of some sort. Perking the Wirbelwind for declining use of the M-16 & Ostwind (both of which I still use on occasion) is like perking a heavily used plane like a Pony D because C.202's are not flown enough. The logic escapes me.
I like your ideas for the half-track variants and would love to see them added. :aok
The other ideas need something more to back them up.
:salute
Way
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The impact that HTC uses as criteria for perking and ENY values is really hard for me to completely extrapolate as I do not completely understand or know it. As I understand the process, it boils down to it overwhelmingly killing more than it's being killed. This is not happening at this time. Further HTC adjusted it's ENY lower last year if I am correct which is already a limiter of some sort. Perking the Wirbelwind for declining use of the M-16 & Ostwind (both of which I still use on occasion) is like perking a heavily used plane like a Pony D because C.202's are not flown enough. The logic escapes me.
I would imagine the mobile AA platforms are a little more difficult to measure as they're GV's that are meant for killing aircraft and not other GV's.... yet they're killed by aircraft as well as GV's, but not by other mobile AA platforms (except on rare occasions).
I would imagine to measure its performance relative to other mobile AA you'd need to eliminate any kills on it by tanks, field ack, etc..... and I bet if you did that it would clearly show that the Wirby is to the M16/Osti as the Tiger is to the M4/Panzer...... and definitely "perk worthy."
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I would imagine the mobile AA platforms are a little more difficult to measure as they're GV's that are meant for killing aircraft and not other GV's.... yet they're killed by aircraft as well as GV's, but not by other mobile AA platforms (except on rare occasions).
I would imagine to measure its performance relative to other mobile AA you'd need to eliminate any kills on it by tanks, field ack, etc..... and I bet if you did that it would clearly show that the Wirby is to the M16/Osti as the Tiger is to the M4/Panzer...... and definitely "perk worthy."
It is the top AA platform inside of 1.5k. Which means it tops the M-16. Outside of that range the Ostwind is king. I think of them more as role players and not "use this vehicle" all the time. Here is what I mean: the M-16 is fast reaction AA and anti-troop firepower in the short range say 1.0k or less, Wirbelwind is the best for repelling field cappers and base attackers that are at low altitude inside 1.5k, Ostwind is best for use against high altitude attackers and heavily armored or dangerous attack planes such as the IL-2 and the A-20 up to alts of 4.0k or more. The premise of the Op is lumping them altogether, then another person is applying the Tiger comparison. I still am only hearing perk it, but no reasoning or numbers to do so. Perks and ENY are simply not figured the way you are describing.
:salute
Way
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The ostwind is nearly useless against targets outside of 1.5k as well. It was the king when compared to the M16, but only for lack of other options.
Waystin, I think you're misunderstanding me... To use your example: I'm not saying "Because the c2, perk the P51d"... I'd be saying "Because the P-51D is top dog, does it all, is hard to kill and kills easily, with the most kills of any other type similar to it, PERK IT, and hey, if they want a free ride, they can fly the C2"
That would be closer to what I'm suggesting.
So you can see where if you want that extra armor you up the Tigr, but pay perks for it, while if you don't have the perks you up the panzer4 and still are nearly as effective. Right?
The same relationship would be in effect for the Sd Kfz 7/1 and the wirbl.
P.S. I remind you, the wirb has 90.9090... percent of of the mobile AA kills in this game, and that's just a recent tour's example (20,000 kills out of 22,000 total, give or take). I really do think we need the Sd Kfz 7 and its variants, but with the addition of the 4x20mm on a soft chassis, the super-uber-never-reloads wirbl chassis is over powered.
P.P.S. I also further remind you that which you already know, but others may have forgotten: With a 1.7K lethal range, they can kill a plane before the plane gets icon on them. They are rather destabilizing to air battles considering the best way to kill them is via another GV.
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Mobelwagen with 88mm flak gun? Solves the "towed gun" issue with dismounting, setting up, etc...
(http://www.wwiivehicles.com/germany/flak-panzers/flakpanzer/flakpanzer-8.8cm-flak-37-01.jpg)
(http://www.wwiivehicles.com/germany/flak-panzers/flakpanzer/flakpanzer-8.8cm-flak-37-02.jpg)
I just threw up in my mouth a little...
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I just threw up in my mouth a little...
:lol WHY?
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It's smurfy!! If we have to wait to deploy, heck I'd wait as long as I look cool while doing it!
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Hey Krusty,
I will say that if it is perked or not it means little to me. Guess I was just Devil's Advocating a bit. I have over 12k in GV perks at this point so a small perk may put my services more in demand. Enjoy a good civil conversation anytime Sir. :aok
:salute
Way
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No worries... It wouldn't make or break the wish either way to perk the wirb afterwards :)
P.S. "smurfy" now replaces the word that stands for eff-ugly?
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+1 on all of this
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Ok folks mark your calendar.
Krusty, brilliant and well thought out post.
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Ok folks mark your calendar.
Krusty, brilliant and well thought out post.
i threw all my calendars away. another thread says the world is ending, and you KNOW if it's said on the AH2 BBS, it's GOTTA be true.
P.S. i really like the idea, the more content the better! :aok
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+1, Like
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Ok folks mark your calendar.
Krusty, brilliant and well thought out post.
I believe that the Mayans predicted this... :uhoh
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Ask lusche about the impact it has had on gameplay... It has taken over 90% of all AA kills from the Ostwind and M16. It's as if you introduced the Spit16 and then 9 out of every 10 planes in the game you ran across were spit16s. Even the CHOG got perked with "only" 20% use... This is by far the most lethal AA platform we have.
The Sd Kfz 7 is still needed. Were we to get the 7/1 setup there is no reason to logically suggest in any way that the Wirb (as modeled now) should go unperked, hence I added that as a follow-on wish.
It all presupposes adding this other vehicle. What would be interesting is having the same chassis with both 37mm and 4x20mm options for the gun.
That brings me to another question: Why aren't the Wirb and Osty on the same vehicle? Why are they separate instead of 2 gun options on the same hangar option?
:salute Good post, good idea. but there is kind of a conflicting issue here....
I would agree that the WW rates as perk worthy based on it rendering the other AA vehicle useless by comparison.
I think the changes you suggest about gun loading would make it more realistic, which is always good in AH. Fire rate would then be very interesting. An M16 might then be prefered because of the ability to stream 4 .50cals. without reloading. Would this cost the WW it's perk worthiness? If you add the new halftrack version, the WW would still be prefered due to the toughness. I think the gun reload change weakens the case for the Perked WW. If you don't perk the WW, this half track would get little use. So would folks pay perks for a defanged WW? Maybe a low perk would sort it out?
+1 :aok
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I like everything in the wish, except for perking the ostwind. :uhoh
There are few enough of us ostwind diehards as is.
I knew the wirb was being used ALOT, but jeezus.. 90% of the kills? that does sound perkworthy, or at least moving the eny down to 5-10 range
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Having only 3 mobile AA platforms in the game it is going to be easy to pick which one is easiest to use.
If the game only have the Spit16, Spit9, and Spit5, which one would get used %90 the time???
If anything (and w/o looking them up), change the ENY of the Wirblewind to 5, the Ostwind to 20, and the M16 to 30. Forget adding a perk cost.
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-1 to perking Wirbel's or Osties. Need some reasoning for this idea.
The fact that the Germans only made about a hundred Wirbelwinds, and half that many Ostwinds?
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+1
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The fact that the Germans only made about a hundred Wirbelwinds, and half that many Ostwinds?
Rarity of a vehicle/plane is not the only criteria used by HTC to decide perks, if at all. Note the TA-152. Even lower production numbers than the Wirbelwind and the Ostwind.
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+1 to all
besides, the wirbelwonder is WAAAAY over powered, Any firearm clip/mag fed in the game should be simulated as if they were. When the wirbel came out the m16 nearly became a hanger queen. The M16 would see more action with this added i would imagine since its probably faster to reload than the wirbel and has a larger ammo capacity in its drums. Ostwind would pwn all once more! :noid
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+1 for the towed 88. id use that more than anything. could use that as AA or anti-tank gun. the other variants proposed are uselss
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+1 to all
besides, the wirbelwonder is WAAAAY over powered, Any firearm clip/mag fed in the game should be simulated as if they were. When the wirbel came out the m16 nearly became a hanger queen. The M16 would see more action with this added i would imagine since its probably faster to reload than the wirbel and has a larger ammo capacity in its drums. Ostwind would pwn all once more! :noid
the m45 quad and m33 twin 50 mount had what was known as "tombstone drums" with a capacity of 200 rounds per can (80 rounds more than a standard 50 cal ammo canister)...the cans were mounted on the bottom of the feed drum...extra canisters of ammuntion were carried in the back of the vehicle.
the 30 cal browning on the m3 and shermans should have 250 rounds per can...
for the ground vehicles with belt fed or magazine fed weapons...it would be very nice if there were ammo stores on the vehicles and a reload time after the ammunition in a can or magazine is used...instead of what currently exists in game.
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+1 for all
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+1 for all
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the m45 quad and m33 twin 50 mount had what was known as "tombstone drums" with a capacity of 200 rounds per can (80 rounds more than a standard 50 cal ammo canister)...the cans were mounted on the bottom of the feed drum...extra canisters of ammunition were carried in the back of the vehicle.
the 30 cal browning on the m3 and Sherman's should have 250 rounds per can...
for the ground vehicles with belt fed or magazine fed weapons...it would be very nice if there were ammo stores on the vehicles and a reload time after the ammunition in a can or magazine is used...instead of what currently exists in game.
very educational, thankyou :salute
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Waystin, if you have ever flown within 2k of a wirble and been single-ping-killed you'd know.
The term "single-ping" is so overused and rarely ever describes what really happened ... I am surprised you used the term.
If 1 single 20mm/37mm hits you in the head, you will never hear the other 20mm/37mm rounds hit your plane.
+1 to your wishes with the exception of perking ... -100 on that
I like everything in the wish, except for perking the ostwind. :uhoh
There are few enough of us ostwind diehards as is.
I knew the wirb was being used ALOT, but jeezus.. 90% of the kills? that does sound perkworthy, or at least moving the eny down to 5-10 range
That only means that 90% of people attacking, with wirbles in the area, did not respect the wirble or just have no clue on how to attack and when to avoid.
The wirble is a force to be reckoned with which only means that one has to be more careful and pay attention when they are around.
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(http://www.trotesdochupim.com.br/blog/wp-content/uploads/2010/01/chuck-norris-approves.jpg)
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(http://www.trotesdochupim.com.br/blog/wp-content/uploads/2010/01/chuck-norris-approves.jpg)
:rofl SAVED! :rofl
As for Krusty's request:
1) +1
2) +/-0
3) +1
While I agree with perking the WW, the OST not so much. Lowering it's ENY and not perking it, then I would be +1 for the 2nd wish. The OST "sprays" the sky with the 37mm. If it was manned ack laser accurate, THEN I would agree on it being perked as well.
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The term "single-ping" is so overused and rarely ever describes what really happened ... I am surprised you used the term.
If 1 single 20mm/37mm hits you in the head, you will never hear the other 20mm/37mm rounds hit your plane.
+1 to your wishes with the exception of perking ... -100 on that
That only means that 90% of people attacking, with wirbles in the area, did not respect the wirble or just have no clue on how to attack and when to avoid.
The wirble is a force to be reckoned with which only means that one has to be more careful and pay attention when they are around.
It's about time that more logical head showed up. :aok
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It's about time that more logical head showed up. :aok
Are you presuming to be the other one? ;)
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Are you presuming to be the other one? ;)
On the perking issue, I know so Vink. :aok
:salute
Way
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LOL, sure. It's logical to ignore the impact of a vehicle that is only detectable once you're inside lethal range.
Slapshot: That's totally illogical. If the first hit kills your pilot any following hits mean jack squat. It was a single ping kill. I'm talking about flying along a couple thousand feet above the ground and suddenly having a stationary prop and oil, or an instant pilot wound, or half my plane suddenly disappeared and I'm falling to the ground. I'm not talking pilot-kills, which also happen.
That said, Vinkman has a good point. If you limit the rate of fire with realistic reloads, would it even need a perk? I don't know. That might bring it down a notch to the "not perkworthy" level.
Very good observation there, Vink.
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LOL, sure. It's logical to ignore the impact of a vehicle that is only detectable once you're inside lethal range.
Slapshot: That's totally illogical. If the first hit kills your pilot any following hits mean jack squat. It was a single ping kill. I'm talking about flying along a couple thousand feet above the ground and suddenly having a stationary prop and oil, or an instant pilot wound, or half my plane suddenly disappeared and I'm falling to the ground. I'm not talking pilot-kills, which also happen.
That said, Vinkman has a good point. If you limit the rate of fire with realistic reloads, would it even need a perk? I don't know. That might bring it down a notch to the "not perkworthy" level.
Very good observation there, Vink.
I knew If I kept plugging away, I'd eventually say something useful Krusty. ;) :salute
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LOL, sure. It's logical to ignore the impact of a vehicle that is only detectable once you're inside lethal range.
Slapshot: That's totally illogical. If the first hit kills your pilot any following hits mean jack squat. It was a single ping kill. I'm talking about flying along a couple thousand feet above the ground and suddenly having a stationary prop and oil, or an instant pilot wound, or half my plane suddenly disappeared and I'm falling to the ground. I'm not talking pilot-kills, which also happen.
That said, Vinkman has a good point. If you limit the rate of fire with realistic reloads, would it even need a perk? I don't know. That might bring it down a notch to the "not perkworthy" level.
Very good observation there, Vink.
Oh so were supposed to interpret you saying ... "if you have ever flown within 2k of a wirble and been single-ping-killed you'd know" ... to "I'm not talking pilot-kills" ... ok ... got it ... :rolleyes:
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You're the one that tried to change it around by saying "Well, if you are talking about PWs...." I replied "I'm NOT talking about PWs..." so basically your post was illogical and non sequitir.
Now back to your regularly scheduled wishlist thread.
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You're the one that tried to change it around by saying "Well, if you are talking about PWs...." I replied "I'm NOT talking about PWs..." so basically your post was illogical and non sequitir.
Now back to your regularly scheduled wishlist thread.
I was talking about PWs ? :confused:
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Waystin, if you have ever flown within 2k of a wirble and been single-ping-killed you'd know. If you've ever tried to strafe one and survive, you'd know. If you've ever tried to even bomb or rocket one and survive you'd know. More often than not you die and he lives. Looking back (I chose the tour before the arena split as an example) the Osty used to get 40,000 kills a month, the M16 used to get 7,000...
I have quite a few wirble kills in an A20 this tour mostly by strafing. More than deaths from wirbls I believe.
I plan and time my attack approach. It's kinda like attacking a bomber.
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I was talking about PWs ? :confused:
Bah, got me there. It was slapshot that brought up PWs. Sorry. It still applies.