Aces High Bulletin Board
Help and Support Forums => Help and Training => Topic started by: pervert on May 19, 2011, 02:55:56 PM
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http://www.4shared.com/file/6FL2JAoG/circlejerkperv.html
(http://www.4shared.com/file/6FL2JAoG/circlejerkperv.html)
Hi all would like a critique of this fight please, had a bit of a duelling session earlier with Debrody and he says I was lost in the rolling scissors every time and then just started circling? Is there anything wrong with my flying style? :joystick:
See attached film, a quick run down.
at 2:28 Debrody informed me we were just circling and wanted to remerge :( reluctantly I agreed! 5:40 Debrody again informs me of the news I have been dreading! This is a circle fight lets remerge! Later I was told I lost the rolling scissors every time and my opponent had my 6, and everytime I lost the rolling scissors I started to circle? what am I doing wrong here?
Should I have remerged or pressed my advantage? Who starts circling first here?
Need some advice here on how I can 'fancy up' my flying to impress! Maybe a spinning cartwheel maneuver that sexy young Lepape2 and Krupniski fella does!? :old: :joystick:
Any analysis welcome especially from trainers. :salute
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I didn't look at the film yet, but it sounds like you're getting stuck in the luftberry. Ok, just looked at the film. You're scissors look good until you stop being aggressive and just start turning. That's where you both end up in the luft berry, it's a crap shoot to get out of once you're in in, but from what I could tell, you had the E to go vert and try to flip back down on him at the start of the luft berry.
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I'm not a trainer, but one thing I'd like to ask..... you do know a 109 CAN turn left don't cha? :D
At the top of many of your scissors chopping the throttle and stomping the left rudder would have had you cutting inside his turn to gain angles. Running the throttle right back up would crank your "E" back up as the 109 accelerates pretty quick.
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At great risk of getting shot down - It looked to me you had the upper hand in the first engagement at the end - I stopped watching once the circle got established, but noted you seem to have the advantage in E and Alt. So all DeBrody can do is circle on the deck at 132mph.
While I am certain The fugitive will shoot me down any time, any where, I would while you have that E advantage try a few high Yo-Yo's to try and get an improved angle.
Unfortunately, I would not have got that far as The Fugitive would have done his top of the scissors thing and got me before then. If you know how to trade some throttle for a good angles advantage then thats got to be a good thing.
Flying the same aircraft type can sometimes just end in a stalemate, perhaps with a winner being the one that makes the fewer mistakes.
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Pervert I didn't see any problems with your flying. I think you would have benefited from an earlier turn around 00:46 but basically you won 3 fights there. Both times that you reset you had an E advantage and you were winning.
You might look at the angle of your barrel rolls in the rolling scissors. When they get too oblique it puts you out in front.
The only issue I see is that you're letting your opponent dictate the fight... literally. :D
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Circle fight? I have also not watched the video (at work :( ) but it sounds as if you are working around enough during the scissors to gain his six. Once he see's this he gets defensive and enters a flat turn. He could do any number of things but a lot of people are very comfortable with this maneuver. I try to stay away from it usually. Expends too much of everything and I feel like a larger grape than normal :)
If you want to close the gap and get guns on you have a number of options like the high yoyo diagram below . I learned this a long while back and use it anytime I get into a similar situation. If they continue the turn you will get guns on and kill them. If they roll out of the turn when you pull up you are still with the advantage as you have the "high ground" and your target will most likely push it over and try to create distance. Good thing about this is if he is content to sit there and turn you can keep doing this over and over and over until you shoot him down. If the turn gets so tight to where you do not have enough smash to pull your nose up you can pull a low yoyo, pick up some speed, pull back up over the top and come back down on him.
I tell myself all the time that it's not just about lag and lead.
(http://i242.photobucket.com/albums/ff44/jappa52/hiyoyo.jpg)
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Pervert I didn't see any problems with your flying. I think you would have benefited from an earlier turn around 00:46 but basically you won 3 fights there. Both times that you reset you had an E advantage and you were winning.
You might look at the angle of your barrel rolls in the rolling scissors. When they get too oblique it puts you out in front.
The only issue I see is that you're letting your opponent dictate the fight... literally. :D
Looked like you was playing with your food there, pervert....... not being agressive enough...... you did get a little more agressive in the last merge/fight though
Debrody was doing ok, but he was pushing his plane to hard and getting it too slow, where as for you you was doing a great job at E management......
only saw one circle fight start to develope in the very first engagement, and Debrody started it after he ran out of altitude..... then ya'll reset for the second fight.....
Debrody was pushing for the guns solution really hard which burned up his E, while pervert was very conservative sometimes too much.......
hope this helps.......
TC
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To the guys who can't watch the film at work, I'm going to offer a possible solution.
This is assuming you would not get in trouble for watching such a thing at work.
Put a copy of the film viewer on a thumb drive.
Works for me :aok
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http://www.4shared.com/file/6FL2JAoG/circlejerkperv.html
(http://www.4shared.com/file/6FL2JAoG/circlejerkperv.html)
Hi all would like a critique of this fight please, had a bit of a duelling session earlier with Debrody and he says I was lost in the rolling scissors every time and then just started circling? Is there anything wrong with my flying style? :joystick:
See attached film, a quick run down.
at 2:28 Debrody informed me we were just circling and wanted to remerge :( reluctantly I agreed! 5:40 Debrody again informs me of the news I have been dreading! This is a circle fight lets remerge! Later I was told I lost the rolling scissors every time and my opponent had my 6, and everytime I lost the rolling scissors I started to circle? what am I doing wrong here?
Should I have remerged or pressed my advantage? Who starts circling first here?
Need some advice here on how I can 'fancy up' my flying to impress! Maybe a spinning cartwheel maneuver that sexy young Lepape2 and Krupniski fella does!? :old: :joystick:
Any analysis welcome especially from trainers. :salute
Do you know BFM? If you do, stick to the basics, put the appropriate maneuvers together, and be patiently aggressive. If you don't, learning BFM will open up a whole new world of air to air combat to you. Jappa's graphic below is just one of the basics that is very effective when used correctly. Also, do you know about lift vector and how it applies in BFM? A working knowledge of how to apply the lift vector is helpful. :salute
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If you keep finding yourself in a luftberry i think the best thing is to know how to win in that position. It sounds counterintuitive, but keep your flaps up. when you get slow its the person who maintains the best corner speed that turns the tightest. The person who can maintain it the longest also has a advantage. It's important not to blow your potential energy, because in the end that could be the difference. Badboy has graphs that show each planes best turning speed. It may be boring but if it happens during KOTH, or some other type of competition your opponent probably wont let you re merge.
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Do you know BFM? If you do, stick to the basics, put the appropriate maneuvers together, and be patiently aggressive. If you don't, learning BFM will open up a whole new world of air to air combat to you. Jappa's graphic below is just one of the basics that is very effective when used correctly. Also, do you know about lift vector and how it applies in BFM? A working knowledge of how to apply the lift vector is helpful. :salute
What does this mean BFM?? :headscratch:
I googled it but I don't know how any of these could apply?? :uhoh
http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=bfm (http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=bfm)
Is this short for a bad attitude in game?? I don't see how this could be used with a lift vector? :headscratch: :joystick:
It may be boring but if it happens during KOTH, or some other type of competition your opponent probably wont let you re merge.
Who starts the turn first though? And why?
I'm not a trainer, but one thing I'd like to ask..... you do know a 109 CAN turn left don't cha? :D
yes
Running the throttle right back up would crank your "E" back up as the 109 accelerates pretty quick.
Hmm are you saying I shouldn't chop throttle here? Or should I chop it first then run it back up to crank my E back up? :headscratch:
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What does this mean BFM?? :headscratch:
I googled it but I don't know how any of these could apply?? :uhoh
http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=bfm (http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=bfm)
Is this short for a bad attitude in game?? I don't see how this could be used with a lift vector? :headscratch: :joystick:
Who starts the turn first though? And why?
yes
Hmm are you saying I shouldn't chop throttle here? Or should I chop it first then run it back up to crank my E back up? :headscratch:
Basic Flight Maneuvers - and dint take the question as a barb. It is suprising how many people do not know these and how they apply.
Not sunfan but I will tell you how I used to start a circle. It usually happens when I misjudge an attackers E state and think he has more smash than he really has. Most of the time he would have a little altitude so I would break hard to force an over shoot and see that he's holding the line with me and not disappearing under my tail. So I would hold the turn hoping to make him falter so I can nose over and extend or reverse.
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Is there anything wrong with my flying style? :joystick:
Nope. As TC mentioned, you did good job with E. True, it makes fights less exciting, but if other guy gets bored (or frustrated), it's up to him to adapt and find solution to break stalemate (if there), or equalize E (if necessary).
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If you chop your throttle at the top of your scissor it removes the torque effect of the engine allowing you to make a much tighter and crisper turn/roll to the left. Chop the throttle, make the turn, run the throttle back up. The 109 accelerates very good so you lose very little "E".
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What does this mean BFM?? :headscratch:
I googled it but I don't know how any of these could apply?? :uhoh
http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=bfm (http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=bfm)
Is this short for a bad attitude in game?? I don't see how this could be used with a lift vector? :headscratch: :joystick:
Who starts the turn first though? And why?
yes
Hmm are you saying I shouldn't chop throttle here? Or should I chop it first then run it back up to crank my E back up? :headscratch:
Basic Fighter Maneuvers.....google it like this and you'll find a lot of good information. It's certainly not a slang term that the urban dictionary will tell you anything about. Here's a good link that Jappa52 provided in another post.....http://sci-ops.net/data/Air-to-Air%20Reference%20Text.pdf
There' also a lot of great info in this thread. http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,311396.0.html
BFM is a set of skills that will allow effective energy management which, in turn, leads to a guns tracking solution, and a kill. Reading up on BFM is a good first step. Next, find a trainer who knows BFM and get some mentoring so you can apply what you've read about if (you can't find one, PM me). Then practice, practice, practice, and be patient. It takes awhile to get the timing down but, you will soon see an improvement in your survival rate.
Lift vector is one of four forces that act on an aircraft in flight: lift, gravity, thrust, and drag. Every time you fly a AH pixel plane you are exercising the flight modeling of these flight forces. Understanding how these affect each other is important in energy management during BFM. The lift vector extends upward, perpendicular to the plane of the wings. This imaginary vertical line above the aircraft is used by the fighter pilot during BFM to manage his energy and maneuver to an advantage against his opponent.
Who turns first? Ideally, the first one to get a visual and remain unseen. This is where BFM and the lift vector come into play. Managing energy and maintaining the visual is key to achieving a guns tracking solution. Lose sight, lose fight! :O
I hope this helps in your effort to improve. :salute
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when i find myself stuck in a circle, i generally try to build enough e to go vertical and at least force something to happen. i will also try and use shallow yo-yo's and flap work (not always deployed as has been mentioned) to see if i can gain guns solution or the e necessary to go vertical.
i try to end it before it leaves the rolling scissors, tho'. circle fights can be a chore, but they're also a good exercise in riding the edge. I'd personally never ask for a merge reset... not even in the DA, lol. I have broken off in a cricle i was clearly winning to allow the other to reset (than re-up), but that's not too often, and never in the MAs.
i also make use of the terrain when in a downward spiraling scissors often the other plane will pull up first, giving me an oppt'y to improve my position.
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Nope. As TC mentioned, you did good job with E. True, it makes fights less exciting, but if other guy gets bored (or frustrated), it's up to him to adapt and find solution to break stalemate (if there), or equalize E (if necessary).
I agree with this, when I'm against "more turny" planes I use slight verticle adjustments to try and get the angles, nothing wrong with a more turny plane to use the luft if he has been bested in the vert. When in the luftberry the one who gets bored or flinches is the dead one. Most of the time the luftberry "forces" the "less turny" to try something else.
JUGgler
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. Badboy has graphs that show each planes best turning speed.
I give up on search. Badboys put out so much good stuff ,( 55 pages I think it was=)) I cant find the cornering speed graphs :bhead Can a geizer get a link? :old:
Suns?
Anyone?
Bueller? :old: :headscratch: :old:
elfy
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Nope. As TC mentioned, you did good job with E. True, it makes fights less exciting, but if other guy gets bored (or frustrated), it's up to him to adapt and find solution to break stalemate (if there), or equalize E (if necessary).
The person who starts a circle is nearly always the person who is in threat of guns and out of E to keep their position in the rolling scissors, if they find it boring they should try and go vertical in the rolling scissors without enough E and let me shoot them simple! :old:
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I give up on search. Badboys put out so much good stuff ,( 55 pages I think it was=)) I cant find the cornering speed graphs :bhead Can a geizer get a link? :old:
Suns?
Anyone?
Bueller? :old: :headscratch: :old:
elfy
This film has absolutely nothing to do with corner speeds.
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Uhoh here we go...
Dont you wanna post the films of the other ones?
I could get behing you in the scissors every time. Then the continous left circles started... every time. I think its not for a DA match. For me outcircling the opponent is not fun, and i sukk in it. I lost, Pervert was better in it, hes so AWSOME. I only seen Rufio doing this (hell exactly the same) before.
But never mind, dont worry, i wont ask for remerge anymore...
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I think this was a great fight! I learned a lot by watching when the flaps come down/up, etc. I shoot down most noobs in the game, clearly this is the inner circle of 'sticks.' Much to learn I have, young padwan.
Boo
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If you keep finding yourself in a luftberry i think the best thing is to know how to win in that position. It sounds counterintuitive, but keep your flaps up. when you get slow its the person who maintains the best corner speed that turns the tightest. The person who can maintain it the longest also has a advantage. It's important not to blow your potential energy, because in the end that could be the difference. Badboy has graphs that show each planes best turning speed. It may be boring but if it happens during KOTH, or some other type of competition your opponent probably wont let you re merge.
Corner velocity is the speed that gives the optimum balance between turn rate and turn radius. Usually, it represents your best turn rate in degrees/second. Corner velocity is the minimum speed where you can pull maximum g. However, if you are at corner velocity, you are nearly blacked out at max g. Thus, this is great for instantaneous turn, but impractical for sustained turning. First, no WWII fighter could maintain corner velocity for more than a few seconds without trading altitude for speed. These aircraft simply lacked the thrust to maintain that velocity under high g loading. Eventually, your altitude will run out and it will be impossible to sustain anything close to corner velocity. Then what? Inasmuch as duels begin right on the deck, you can forget about corner velocity being a factor after your first hard turn or two.
You have to decide if you can offset a better turning pilot with a greater turn rate. You have to decide if you want to dump some or all of your flaps. Getting into a lufberry with a skilled pilot may not be a good idea. You have to discover if your opponent has greater skills at riding the stall. If he does, you will be dead in short order if you don't break out of the lufberry. To break out, you can't wait until the other guy gets much beyond your 9/3 line. You should retract some flaps and ease off the turn, getting the nose up. If the other guy doesn't do likewise, you may be able to build a quick E advantage while he goes around at minimum speed. If you do, you roll level, nose over and accelerate out of the circle. If you have timed it well, the other guy still has nearly 180 degrees to turn, level off and pull up flaps. That should give you enough distance to reverse back for another merge. However, if you are very good at riding the stall, stay in the circle and wear your opponent down.
Having flown literally thousands of duels, I've discovered that there are some pilots who will not immediately reverse off of the merge. These guys will blow by and run out 2k and then chandelle back with lots of E. Meanwhile, you burned off much of your speed with a hard reverse just as you passed each other. To avoid this problem, I used to do cage matches in the TA. Pick a large field. You take off in opposite directions. At the other end of the runway you both reverse into a merge. You cannot, at any time, fly outside the perimeter of the field. Thus, no running, no timid merges... You fight close in and usually on the edge of a stall. This, more than any other type of duel, will determine who has the better plane handling and dogfighting skills. One advantage to dueling in the TA is that when you get clobbered, you don't have to re-plane, which wastes a lot of time. Keep on fighting. Record everything in the event that there arises a dispute.
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Well said, Widewing! :aok Great description of corner velocity and how to use it in BFM/ACM. :salute. CV is certainly a good tool to have in the bag of tricks.
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when i find myself stuck in a circle, i generally try to build enough e to go vertical and at least force something to happen. i will also try and use shallow yo-yo's and flap work .
QFT i do same thing
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I'll put in my two cents here?
Perv at the start of the fight you had more e you were overshooting him every time. He wasn't out turning you it just looks that way from the cockpit.
He was just inside your circle the whole time. You kept trying to turn with him all it did was burn your E, because you had to keep "trying" to out turn him which is impossible in this situation as he was inside your circle already.
The best way I think is vector displacement roll. Or yo yo, Anyway by just turning harder you lose E and therefore vertical advantage you get lower and lower and lower at that point luftberry is the only thing you had energy for.
One more thing try a little bit more lead pursuit or turn more to where you imagine he will be. You were trying to turn behind him from the cockpit view.
by the time the turn was made you were way out of position.
If you are already in it. The same thinking that got you there won't solve it.
Notice quicker and I go nose down wep if I have it get as much e as possible then turn back and use a barrel roll as he goes for guns solution. Couple of choices he goes with and back in rolling scissors, or he over shoots and you get a gun solution, If it is close I will never burn e on the first snapshot I just go for same set up burn his e first then kill.
I can't help with the circle thing as I only have references for loosing if I get stuck in it. LOL :airplane: :joystick: :airplane: :joystick:
Last time it happened I was in a 1-a and spade walked a 38 right around my circle and i started right behind him barely out of gun solution.
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Who starts the turn first though? And why?
The guy who has more E but loses it trying to turn inside his own circle. It just can't be done. I had the same problem, my issue was what I thought I was seeing from the cockpit. You think he is out turning you so you turn harder. You can't believe how the hell he got around so quick no way he can turn his plane the fast. YOUR RIGHT he isn't. he is slower and makes a smaller circle he was really lag pursuit slower and could turn tighter, all you were doing was overshooting and turning in front of him. Doing most of the turning for him. So the harder you try the more E you lose, the only option you have left is the circle because that's all the E you have. You didn't do it because you wanted to you did it because you had to.
Now that I know what happens If he is " out turning me " It is a sign I have more E so I go vertical and roll to displace my energy
If you try to turn with him, you are wasting your energy
Put on trails in video and look from 3d perspective. look at his speed to yours after the first two merges. Its a perspective thing.