Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: jimson on May 24, 2011, 12:30:10 AM
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I've been toying with ways to run a strategic, objective based game in AvA.
We can't use the base capture, win the war map reset as it doesn't work with custom 2 sided arena tables. Every thing we do is manual, but being a 7 day a week arena, whatever we do has to be fairly simple and easy to track.
I've gotten some feedback from the AvA community but would like to get some more.
This is what I've come up with so far.
This will be a mostly unsupervised strategic game that can result in "winning the war."
Victory won't be based on field capture, but on a combination of strategic targets destroyed and number of enemies killed.
Field capture will be possible and can be done for any reason, including to gain strategic position from which to launch attacks on enemy strats, but will not in itself, be a factor in victory.
The foremost objective will be to destroy the enemies factories. Once they are destroyed, they will not regenerate for the length of the set up.
This will represent the total destruction of the enemies war material production capability.
On some terrains, these factories are deep within enemy territory or tucked in out of the way places. It will be players choice whether to use bombers, fighter bombers or ground vehicles for these strat attacks.
Depending on how difficult this is to accomplish, city strats could also be added.
The second factor will be a higher number of enemy kills. These numbers will be taken from the AH stats and will be separated by type of aircraft. Those that cannot be distinguished, such as those accomplished with ship or field guns, chutes, or any vehicles that are substituted and in use by both sides will be thrown out of the totals.
Once either countries factories have all been destroyed, the kill numbers will be counted and if the prevailing country also has the higher number of kills, they will have won the war.
If said country does not have a higher number of kills, the war will continue until both conditions are met by either country.
Once a victory has been determined, the arena will either be reset back to the beginning, advanced on the same map or changed to a new set up and new terrain.
Designated strategic targets will only be in play between the hours of 6pm to midnight est. At all other times they will be hardened to indestructible.
The arena will be open for dogfighting at all times.
There will be no time of day restrictions on kills of other players.
(http://i1236.photobucket.com/albums/ff457/avacmstaff/killtotals-1.jpg)
(http://i1236.photobucket.com/albums/ff457/avacmstaff/ROOKSLOSE.jpg)
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we need to trash Titanic Tues and make it AvA only day.it seems like it would have a little more meaning to the game.
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we need to trash Titanic Tues and make it AvA only day.it seems like it would have a little more meaning to the game.
Yeah, that's never gonna happen.
How bout the original post about an ongoing strategic setup in AvA?
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Yeah, that's never gonna happen.
How bout the original post about an ongoing strategic setup in AvA?
i think the problem is no one is ever is AvA.theres almost no point in even having it as of right now.everyone would just rather fly the planes they want so they dont go into AvA where planes are restricted.i would spend 80% less time in MA and be in AvA if it had a decent amount of players in it.
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any thing better than the gang banging hord style play the the late war arenas have become.just wish there were more guys that would log into ava arena.the few times i logged i it was a ghost town.
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I'm surprised there aren't more people in AvA. As the only place where you can find historical match ups, usually a short flight from an enemy base it's a blast. Just add a few players and presto. It is also a great place to improve your game because it is not a perpetual vulch fest and the absence of icons mitigates alt monkey advantage. Players are more likely to respect a 1v1 and pick and ho less~ it also changes every week! How cool is that? :rock
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i think the problem is no one is ever is AvA.theres almost no point in even having it as of right now.everyone would just rather fly the planes they want so they dont go into AvA where planes are restricted.i would spend 80% less time in MA and be in AvA if it had a decent amount of players in it.
So go in the AVA, fly around for a bit, and/or start pm'ing your friends. Next thing you know, you'll have a population in there and probably alot of fun!
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Designated strategic targets will only be in play between the hours of 6pm to midnight est.
That's 10 PM to 6 AM for us in Europe :lol
But yes, I do see why this is (unfortunately) necessary :)
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So go in the AVA, fly around for a bit, and/or start pm'ing your friends. Next thing you know, you'll have a population in there and probably alot of fun!
I have not been in for some time. Had great times there with no icons. Just rarely see anyone there. Then something was attracting some folks who have no move but head on.
I'm not sure that attracting the "win the war" types will improve anything. I could be wrong..... I was once. :D
Good luck. I just hope you don't have to ruin the idea of the arena to make it more popular.
As for PMing my friends... I have no friends. My squad uses me for bait when corky is not around. : :neener:
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thats funny, i use you for bait too when i see you in there!
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I'm not sure that attracting the "win the war" types will improve anything.
None of us are sure about anything.
I just wonder if the arena is limited by a lack of objectives/goals.
As it is, there is no compelling reason for people to fly more variety of missions, no real role for bomber pilots here etc.
An objective based scenario that focuses on something other than base capture is a bit different dynamic.
Objectives can be pursued without killing bases, shutting down fights and encouraging vultching etc.
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None of us are sure about anything.
I just wonder if the arena is limited by a lack of objectives/goals.
As it is, there is no compelling reason for people to fly more variety of missions, no real role for bomber pilots here etc.
An objective based scenario that focuses on something other than base capture is a bit different dynamic.
Objectives can be pursued without killing bases, shutting down fights and encouraging vultching etc.
This is a big reason why I don't drop in more often. To me the AvA is most similar to the DA and I don't spend any time in there because I get the most fun out of the game when flying a bombing mission or a jabo strike. The AvA is little fun to run these kind of missions because of things like raised object hardness, occasional low alt ceilings (compared to the MA's), and the amount of action going on due to low attendance numbers means little or no escort for bombers and little or no chance to sneak a flight of bombers into and out of their target. Also when compared to the allied bombers, the axis bombers where slow, and under armed. So with all that working against pilots who like to fly bombers, plus knowing that your flight will have little or no effect on the arena as a whole; why would a bomber jock drop in on the AvA?
The Idea I have to help add some strategy to the AvA is to try out what has been wished for repeatedly in the forums. Implement strat targets similar to the factories in the MA's but make their destruction affect the arena. For example have factories corresponding to the plane lists so that if the allies destroy all of the factories for the bf109 then that plane is not available to the axis for a certain amount of time or only a certain percentage of the axis pilots can up a bf109, same for GV's. This way each side can have an objective to try to achieve that would have an effect on the AvA situation but it won't necessarily "win the war" or cause massive land grabs.
Just my long winded .02
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None of us are sure about anything.
I just wonder if the arena is limited by a lack of objectives/goals.
As it is, there is no compelling reason for people to fly more variety of missions, no real role for bomber pilots here etc.
An objective based scenario that focuses on something other than base capture is a bit different dynamic.
Objectives can be pursued without killing bases, shutting down fights and encouraging vultching etc.
I can tell you one thing for positively sure.... the problem with non-increasing numbers in AVA is NOT for lack of trying.
I commend all of the AVA folks for sticking to their guns on trying to get the AVA going. Do what you have to do. Try what you have to try. I'm hoping for yalls success in the end...... hopefully before October 21st. :D
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Implement strat targets similar to the factories in the MA's but make their destruction affect the arena. For example have factories corresponding to the plane lists so that if the allies destroy all of the factories for the bf109 then that plane is not available to the axis for a certain amount of time or only a certain percentage of the axis pilots can up a bf109, same for GV's.
These are cool ideas but without any automation tools, we have to fake things manually and in a 24/7 arena, there is little way to accomplish that.
Soo..... that leaves us with trying to do something in a simplified manner that's easy to keep track of.
Make it as run by itself as much as possible.
As for altitude ceilings and object hardness, that is something we can control.
In this example, I wasn't planning on any ceilings and the only time object hardness would be raised is during the times the arena is mostly empty, just to help prevent folks from logging in and destroying everything when there is no chance of defenders slowing them down.
Also, we can disable bomber load outs in order to keep Axis within the same capability range as Allied at least as far as weapons go.
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Yeah, I didn't figure the tools where already in place for what I suggested; but I think the AvA would be a good place to test out some of the better ideas for strategic targets/gameplay listed over on the wishlist forum (i guess that would be a decision more for the guys at HTC wouldn't it?). My comment about the bombers being under armed was more about the smaller caliber and fewer numbers of defensive guns on most axis planes than the bomb load they can carry; and I know there really isn't much that can be done about it either. I was just listing some of the things that keep me (as a bomber pilot) from logging into the AvA more often. btw, more scenarios using the graf zeppelin would definitely lure me in more often. :aok
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Yeah, can't do much about bomber defensive guns, but other than that it's manageable. Enable only allied medium bombers or disable certain load outs for the heavies to make them similar to the axis load outs.
Of course we could simply do attack and defend scenarios, and other tweaks could be added, but the basic concept of making factories the main objective along with achieving higher kill numbers would simulate 1. defeating the enemy in the field. 2. destroy their ability to continue making war.
Then capturing bases becomes only a strategic positioning objective.
It creates a bit different dynamic from the MA, sort of removes the stigma of being a "base taker" and is really about the only thing Iv'e come up with so far to provide an ongoing strategic aspect to playing in the AvA that is simple enough to do with the tools we have.
Wish we had a bigger toolbox, but it's HTC's call as to where to put their limited resources that they believe is most fruitful.
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would a night of strictly bombing runs be something people are interested in? that could very easily be done.
settings strats to affect gameplay can also be done. problem is that with such low numbers in the arena, someone would do it just to skew the arena. herein lies our problem.
bombing strats down to not give out a plane cannot be done. nor can percentage plane numbers.
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would a night of strictly bombing runs be something people are interested in? that could very easily be done.
settings strats to affect gameplay can also be done. problem is that with such low numbers in the arena, someone would do it just to skew the arena. herein lies our problem.
bombing strats down to not give out a plane cannot be done. nor can percentage plane numbers.
I don't think you would have as much of a problem with this as you might think. One of the things AvA has going for it is a player base that is more interested in fair play rather than crushing the opposite side (which unfortunately is also the biggest thing going against what this thread is discussing). Yes you would have people doing milk runs during unpopulated hours but I don't think it would have that big of an impact on the AvA arena.
I think if you could set a goal similar to "destroy at least 95% of each factory complex and 95% of air/land/sea power for one country to win the battle" that would give people a reason to try more of a total war approach to gameplay in the AvA. % destroyed factories is already tracked in the MA's so that wouldn't be too hard to set up for AvA use and the % of air/land/sea power destroyed can be done by setting a kill number goal based on whatever the current scenario is, i.e. "axis needs a total of 100 air kills/50 gv kills/1task group sunk to achieve 95% allied war power destroyed"
These goals can be listed in the arena message so that every one knows what each side is trying to achieve. I'm not sure if the arena message can be set up this way but if it can be used to track and display the current number of kills of air/gv/sea vs the needed number of air/gv/sea kills people can also keep track of how close one side is to winning. Like I said though, I have no idea if it is even possible to set up the messages that way or not. I am just trying to give some of my ideas that aren't too scatter brained or that might lead to a different idea that will work out for what you are trying to do here.
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This discussion can go on for years..... bottom line, you can't please everyone. I do have a fix for it though.... just please me. :D
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I think if you could set a goal similar to "destroy at least 95% of each factory complex and 95% of air/land/sea power for one country to win the battle" that would give people a reason to try more of a total war approach to gameplay in the AvA. % destroyed factories is already tracked in the MA's so that wouldn't be too hard to set up for AvA use and the % of air/land/sea power destroyed can be done by setting a kill number goal based on whatever the current scenario is, i.e. "axis needs a total of 100 air kills/50 gv kills/1task group sunk to achieve 95% allied war power destroyed"
Some of this could be done, depending on what is enabled.
There is no way to separate kills except by country of origin of plane or vehicle, so each sides equipment would need to be unique.
It would take some creative thinking.
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So go in the AVA, fly around for a bit, and/or start pm'ing your friends. Next thing you know, you'll have a population in there and probably alot of fun!
Yes!
The other day, stumbled into the AvA upped a Ki84 with bombs to try to finish off a town from a previous bombing attempt, and had someone else join the arena and up an enemy fighter. Seeing as I was low on cannon, decided to head toward my base, gather speed, then flew back into his P38. Used angles to outfly him, gain the advantage and shoot him down. Could barely get that type of engagement in the AvA <S>
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I've been toying with ways to run a strategic, objective based game in AvA.
Once a victory has been determined, the arena will either be reset back to the beginning, advanced on the same map or changed to a new set up and new terrain.
Excellent stuff jimson. :aok
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I went into the MW arena earlier in the evening yesterday. I saw a con up and heading to a V Base. I upped my ol' 38 and headed that way for intercept. As soon as the con saw my dot he ran like a scalded cat to his base and landed. This is the way of MW for the most part these days. For this reason I spend much more time in LW arenas now. At least they fight.
Oldman pm'd me last night to come over to AVA. I would have but Wednesday is sort of a unofficial squad night these days.
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I went into the MW arena earlier in the evening yesterday. I saw a con up and heading to a V Base. I upped my ol' 38 and headed that way for intercept. As soon as the con saw my dot he ran like a scalded cat to his base and landed. This is the way of MW for the most part these days. For this reason I spend much more time in LW arenas now. At least they fight.
Oldman pm'd me last night to come over to AVA. I would have but Wednesday is sort of a unofficial squad night these days.
the guy who ran..it was cotton im assuming
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Not this time. Cotton was on the same team I was on and in a GV. When I asked why, on open channel, the guy was running instead of trying to fight... cotton said "maybe he is learning". I told cotton that he won't learn anything just running.
In any case MW is about dead. Most folks in there are the same as in EW.
Sorry for the hijack.
We now take you back to your previous program. :D
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Yeah, that's never gonna happen.
How bout the original post about an ongoing strategic setup in AvA?
Same problem as always. The targets will be destroyed when only 2 guys are on and on the same side. After that, people will just avoid fighting and resort to hi alt pick and run in order to get the victory points. Fighting will lead to death. More over, the whining will be out of this world when people engage and die. For example, if I log in and start flying low taking on anyone that shows up and keep dieing, wont it look like I am giving the victory to the other side? What if people that did not read teh BBS show up?
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That maybe true in the MA's dedalos, but in the AvA there are no perk points to be gained by making kills or "winning the war" and the map doesn't change once the war is won; so other than the chance to say "yeah...the axis or allies won last week" there really isn't much reason for people to fly in the ways you are describing. Granted, that will be more than enough reason for some people to fly high and pick (or other similar methods), but that kind of fighting will always be a by product of a move towards a more strategic gameplay experience in the AvA. A change will have to be made based on the hope that enough people come to the AvA for a chance to experience a "total war" type of play similar to the MA's, minus the garbage that most people whine about in the MA's and that the existing AvA diehards will help promote the growth of the kind of gameplay that this thread is discussing.
Look on the bright side, most of the people who use picking, vulching, HOing, etc are the kind of people who like the easy mode of 6k icons and will probably avoid the AvA like its a psychotic ex, no matter how strategic the gameplay becomes.
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Strats will not be in play during the overnight hours, if people don't want to play for objectives they can furball as usual.
Just want to try to provide something more than just a 2 sided limited plane set dueling arena.
Hopefully, using something other than base capture will be a slightly different dynamic.