Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Wishlist => Topic started by: Krusty on June 02, 2011, 09:06:05 AM
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More and more newer planes are obscuring vital readouts or instruments so that they cannot be read unless you have track IR or are a contortionist with your hat views and hit 2 dozen key combinations.
This is a game. I want the info the game is giving me. Some of the newer redesigned planes obscure and hide important readouts. Things like engine boost on the 109E, I think, and the dials on the Ju87 completely hidden (okay, that's an "old model" but still). The 109K4 hides the ammo counter. The Brewster doesn't show engine RPM/MAP on the forward screen, for crying out loud! Some screens crowd the trim off the screen to some lower side view. Some hide the ammo counters. The Betty is terrible to fly because all your meters are on the other side of the cockpit! The ones on your side are hidden behind the stick! Somebody also mentioned problems with the B-25 in another thread, and I'll add to that there are others as well.
This is a GAME! It's not a simulation, as HTC has pointed out. We're not devoting our every waking hour to perfecting our knowledge of 1 airframe, as fighter pilots did in real life. We can't reach out by feel and locate every instrument with our eyes closed. We can't just move our heads a fraction of an inch to the side, dart our eyes down and in an instant get the readout for MAP or RPM or fill-in-the-blank. I fly nearly every plane in this game. I don't stick to just 1 ride. I like to enjoy all the wealth of options HTC has given us.
But it is really starting to get bad with the instruments. We need to give up this move towards historic placement of instruments, because frankly we're NOT using historic instruments. Drop the pretense! Most craft had terrible instrument layout... Many didn't HAVE half the instrument readouts we have! We're here to test pilot skill not pilot ability to locate dials on secondary screens. Just give us the info and let us fight the fight instead of mixing up head position views trying to find one tiny instrument! Give us the info we need in the forward instrument view!
That is how it USED to be! I'm not saying it has to look bad, just TRY to get it all in a nice layout! Historic layouts be damned, in the real world you could glance over all the dials in a moment, and I want to do the same!
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Bit of hyperbole there krusty i dont think you need to "hit 2 dozen key combinations" to view gauges.
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This is a game. I want the info the game is giving me. Some of the newer redesigned planes obscure and hide important readouts. it has to look bad, just TRY to get it all in a nice layout!
...Historic layouts be damned, in the real world you could glance over all the dials in a moment...
+1
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Bit of hyperbole there krusty i dont think you need to "hit 2 dozen key combinations" to view gauges.
Of course you don't. I was exaggerating, and it's rather obvious, but you still have to often enter another view mode (F8?) then adjust head positions front, back, up, down, left, or right (or 5 out of those 6) while adjusting angle with hat or view keys to see some of them. Definitely a frustrating hassle.
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+1
Bit of a misquote there, I said it doesn't have to look bad :D
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This is a GAME! It's not a simulation, as HTC has pointed out. We're not devoting our every waking hour to perfecting our knowledge of 1 airframe, as fighter pilots did in real life. We can't reach out by feel and locate every instrument with our eyes closed. We can't just move our heads a fraction of an inch to the side, dart our eyes down and in an instant get the readout for MAP or RPM or fill-in-the-blank. I fly nearly every plane in this game. I don't stick to just 1 ride. I like to enjoy all the wealth of options HTC has given us.
But it is really starting to get bad with the instruments. We need to give up this move towards historic placement of instruments, because frankly we're NOT using historic instruments. Drop the pretense! Most craft had terrible instrument layout... Many didn't HAVE half the instrument readouts we have! We're here to test pilot skill not pilot ability to locate dials on secondary screens. Just give us the info and let us fight the fight instead of mixing up head position views trying to find one tiny instrument! Give us the info we need in the forward instrument view!
does this mean you're going to quit arguing about every little technical aspect...and not bust someone's chops when they get some technical detail wrong? it's just a game, not a simulation...why worry about the historical ammuntion/ordnance loadouts? it's not a simulation, what difference does it make if the plane is 100 lbs under or 1000 lbs over weight in ah?
This is a game. I want the info the game is giving me. Some of the newer redesigned planes obscure and hide important readouts. Things like engine boost on the 109E, I think, and the dials on the Ju87 completely hidden (okay, that's an "old model" but still). The 109K4 hides the ammo counter. The Brewster doesn't show engine RPM/MAP on the forward screen, for crying out loud! Some screens crowd the trim off the screen to some lower side view. Some hide the ammo counters. The Betty is terrible to fly because all your meters are on the other side of the cockpit! The ones on your side are hidden behind the stick! Somebody also mentioned problems with the B-25 in another thread, and I'll add to that there are others as well.
it's just a game, why are you worried about the rpm/map gauge? why worry about the trim, let the plane trim itself using one of the x key combos. the only gauges you really need are altimeter, airspeed, fuel, artificial horizon, gear indicator lights...you're never going to overspeed the engine and blow it.
i guess historical accuracy should only be applied when it's...convenient for krusty.
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Geebus man, learn the quote function!
Also, major fail on your attempt to spin this around to insult me.
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your op is nothing more than "give me historical accuracy when it's convenient for me"...if the truth is insulting then...so be it.
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Between the mouse views and a hat switch with up, down, left, and right translations mapped I don't think it is much of a problem to see any instruments. For all the fuss about using accurate skins I would expect everyone to be flipping out that we have ammo counters in our cockpits. Each new cockpit looks better than the last so why spoil something good.
-1
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The principle remains that instruments should be easily visible, in flight, without moving from the default forward view. In R/L you only have to move your eyes a nanometer, after all. Photo-realism in cockpit layout is worthily subordinated to realism in actually being able to usefully read your instruments.
In particular, several cockpits have the G-meter hidden in any conceivable view, which is problematic since, lacking the tactile sensation of actually having our butts in the seat, it is the only reliable clue to G-loading we have.
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The principle remains that instruments should be easily visible, in flight, without moving from the default forward view. In R/L you only have to move your eyes a nanometer, after all. Photo-realism in cockpit layout is worthily subordinated to realism in actually being able to usefully read your instruments.
In particular, several cockpits have the G-meter hidden in any conceivable view, which is problematic since, lacking the tactile sensation of actually having our butts in the seat, it is the only reliable clue to G-loading we have.
you would have to move your head, if just slightly in some aircraft to see certain instruments...
maybe true historically accurate instrument panel layouts would be better...
http://www.airpages.ru/eng/img/abb1.shtml (http://www.airpages.ru/eng/img/abb1.shtml)
take a look at where the ammunition counters were on a 109-k4...
http://www.clubhyper.com/reference/bf109cockpit/AmmoCounters.html (http://www.clubhyper.com/reference/bf109cockpit/AmmoCounters.html)
didn't know there were g meters in the instrument panels... :headscratch: does it actually say g-meter?
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No Gyrene, your objection doesn't hold any water at all on this one.
Most aircraft in WW2 time didn't HAVE half the instruments we have. Artificial horizons were rare. Heck, turn and bank needles were often rare. Many times instruments just didn't function. Fuel dials had only to show when empty, but could give any reading when the tanks were full, the only 2 semi-reliable readouts you'll find in most planes are boost and rpm. Forget about radios! Most planes in the war didn't have those either! Should we remove vox?
I repeat, this is a game, not a sim! It doesn't simulate the experiences of war-time pilots and what they had to learn. Go fly "B-17" if you want that level of detail. This game gives us the tools of WW2. It gives us the means to test our skills and abilities. It's not an exercise in who can play with head views more to read instruments.
At a glance we should be able to see all we need to to decide our course of action. It is the human decision we make that determines of we live or die (virtually speaking), not our ability to read (or not read) something off the screen.
Given that HTC has up to this point made an effort to give us the info we need to make our combat-oriented decisions in an informed manner (i.e. "do I stay for another fight?" or "I'm losing oil now, I see a chance to break off, what's my oil pressure? Can I make it home?" or "How many taters do I have left?"). HTC has already made their stand with what info they want to give us, and have standardized this across all aircraft. I wish they would stick to this and not hide certain parts of this.
You are putting words in my mouth about historical accuracy issues. It's what is available in the real world. You only need a flick of the eye. Here it doesn't work that way. I can't help but think you're trying to sling mud or bring up ulterior motives when you make such insinuations/accusations.
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Krusty: What are your FOV and Res settings in your video setup?
I see the ammo counters fine in the K4.
HiTech
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Eh... I can see where you are coming from Krusty but I can also see what Gyrene means. Truth be told I like the set up we have now
-1 keep system
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Krusty: What are your FOV and Res settings in your video setup?
I see the ammo counters fine in the K4.
HiTech
default 1280x1024, the ammo counters are behind the stick on that example. You have to look around the 3D stick or bank hard one way to move it away from the ammo box that has the number inside it.
[Edit: I think it's the K-4. I can't check right now, not at home. One of the 109s has the ammo counters obscured]
Demon: You misunderstand. We already have this in place, it's been here since day 1 pretty much. I want to keep it in place. I'm not advocating change as much as advocating keeping the original philosophy in effect.
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then you do want historical accuracy krusty...
looks to me like some of the instruments are in the wrong place on the 109e4
http://www.airliners.net/photo/Messerschmitt-Bf-109E-4/1094119/L/ (http://www.airliners.net/photo/Messerschmitt-Bf-109E-4/1094119/L/)
looks like the stuka has some instruments in difficult to see positions...maybe...angle is off
(http://www.relojdeavion.es/IMAGENES/M109/stukagrande.jpg)
(http://www.ww2aircraft.net/forum/attachments/aircraft-pictures/26299d1145264838-ju-87-cockpits-ju87-cockpit.jpg)
would having the instruments in their proper positions make it a simulation or would it still be a game?
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Yet again you ignore what I've been saying.
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Krusty I know what you mean but I kinda like the stuff sometimes being obscured. It makes it feel more like I'm actually in the cockpit.
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Cockpit layout is a big deal to me. I have to be able to see everything to feel comfy. Case in point, I like the P-47 cockpit layout better than the F6Fs because of the needle compass. If I find myself in a defensive spiral I can blast out the bottom of it on an escape heading if need be. So I do see what you're getting at but...
1. I didn't really see a concrete fix suggestion.
2. The aircraft are not all modeled historically but the current fidelity balance hasn't ruined the game for me.
3. Overcoming aircraft limitations is part of the fun in AH and lets me look down my nose at the XBoxers so leave my ego alone! ;)
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how about the partially obstructed compass and fuel by cowl gun in the new A6M's.
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I agree Krusty. How many cannon rounds left in the Spit??
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Krusty, I don't like the fact that I cannot see the ammo counters on the spit or the 109 for example, but if I move the stick, I can. What you are describing is a convenience feature vice "you can never ever see the ammo counter". For me, there are way more interesting things HTC could do with their time, rather than make something more convenient.
I don't like that the F6F and other airplanes coulr really use rearview mirriors for rearward visibility, don't have them.
I don't like the fact that you can push your head nearly out of the cockpit in some planes, allow you get get some pretty wild shots in (like the 163).
I don't like the fact that tanks can reliably shoot down aircraft, a 7.5 cm wide, point detonating round.
I don't like the fact that a tank pintle gun can pilot wound an IL-2 pilot from the front.
I don't like the fact that guys can turn off their engines in flight. I am sure there were a few airplanes that counted on inertia starters vice electrical ones.
The list goes on. I would take changes to any of those before i would complain about something that all I have to do is wiggle my stick to see what I need to see.
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I don't like the fact that guys can turn off their engines in flight. I am sure there were a few airplanes that counted on inertia starters vice electrical ones.
don't need a starter to start an engine if its windmilling.. all gotta do is have the mags on and add fuel.
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There are certain instruments that should be clearly visible from from "shooting" position at all times, considering that we do not have any "feel" of the craft, and that glancing at hidden instruments is NOT as easy as moving your head (Unless you have TrackIR). These instruments are the airspeed indicator, vertical speed indicator, artificial horizon, flaps indicator, and, ESPECIALLY, the G-meter. Thankfully every gunsight in AHII seems to have a slip-ball mounted under it.
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don't need a starter to start an engine if its windmilling.. all gotta do is have the mags on and add fuel.
Interesting, I figured the airflow would not be enough when guys usually shut their engines off (150-200 kts) to restart them. I imagine the force required to do so would be pretty good on 1,600 cubic inch engines.
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default 1280x1024, the ammo counters are behind the stick on that example. You have to look around the 3D stick or bank hard one way to move it away from the ammo box that has the number inside it.
[Edit: I think it's the K-4. I can't check right now, not at home. One of the 109s has the ammo counters obscured]
Demon: You misunderstand. We already have this in place, it's been here since day 1 pretty much. I want to keep it in place. I'm not advocating change as much as advocating keeping the original philosophy in effect.
lol boo hoo, and I thought I was lazy.
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dont think i have ever seen ammo counters in ww2 birds
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dont think i have ever seen ammo counters in ww2 birds
Somebody posted a pic of one in this thread:
take a look at where the ammunition counters were on a 109-k4...
http://www.clubhyper.com/reference/bf109cockpit/AmmoCounters.html (http://www.clubhyper.com/reference/bf109cockpit/AmmoCounters.html)
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There are certain instruments that should be clearly visible from from "shooting" position at all times, considering that we do not have any "feel" of the craft, and that glancing at hidden instruments is NOT as easy as moving your head (Unless you have TrackIR). These instruments are the airspeed indicator, vertical speed indicator, artificial horizon, flaps indicator, and, ESPECIALLY, the G-meter. Thankfully every gunsight in AHII seems to have a slip-ball mounted under it.
again with the g-meter you seriously expect everyone to believe you're looking at the accelerometer while you're in a fight?
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again with the g-meter you seriously expect everyone to believe you're looking at the accelerometer while you're in a fight?
This is like saying "you expect everyone to believe you look at the ASI while in a fight?"
I glance at the G-meter frequently, most commonly when "unloading" the plane to 0 G, or pulling up from a high speed dive. The differences in E-Bleed from a 3 to a 5 g pull are significant. The G-meter as a reference also allows you to eventually know by the "feel" of your stick roughly the G-loading a certain amount of input will induce.
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hate to break it to you but, it's nothing like looking at the asi while in a fight...in the ah world, people pull til they have nothing but a little circle of light against a black background while trying to keep their eyes on the enemy they are fighting and the air around them...those that don't get shot down.
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hate to break it to you but, it's nothing like looking at the asi while in a fight...in the ah world, people pull til they have nothing but a little circle of light against a black background while trying to keep their eyes on the enemy they are fighting and the air around them...those that don't get shot down.
LMAO. The last refuge of the out-argued...
My seconds will get in touch with your seconds, K'? bye.
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ya, you just keep looking around for the accelerometer while you have someone on your six shooting at you...
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ya, you just keep looking around for the accelerometer while you have someone on your six shooting at you...
Thanks, you keep trying too. Maybe you'll work your way up to a 100 total kills next tour :-)
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Interesting, I figured the airflow would not be enough when guys usually shut their engines off (150-200 kts) to restart them. I imagine the force required to do so would be pretty good on 1,600 cubic inch engines.
they will keep turning till very slow, well under 100mph at least (i'm thinkin even below stall speed). the propeller has tremendous leverage, I've read of being able to bend a crankshaft by turning the prop by hand on a big radial that has oil leaked down into one of the combustion chambers.
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Thanks, you keep trying too. Maybe you'll work your way up to a 100 total kills next tour :-)
i'll have you know i have more kills than that...over 3 tours :lol
i'm just a piss poor shot...from any distance...has nothing to do with not being able to see the g-meter. i'm willing to bet no more than 10% of the people in the arenas either know there is a g-meter, understand what it's for or pay attention to it.
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i'll have you know i have more kills than that...over 3 tours :lol
i'm just a piss poor shot...from any distance...has nothing to do with not being able to see the g-meter. i'm willing to bet no more than 10% of the people in the arenas either know there is a g-meter, understand what it's for or pay attention to it.
Looking through topic I have found out there was a G-meter. Also, I'm not a good shot that doesn't have to do with the G-meter either.
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look at gmeter or look at enemy con in turn fight mmm hard to make a choice.
there's not one plane where I cannot see the ammo counter. me I only look at the instrument panel for speed. boost I can hear the engine when wep is on. I can tell when flaps are on because of plane behavior and because I remember how many notches I press.
krusty they're right you will argue the little things to death except when its convenient to you.
things are fine the way they are.
semp
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I think his problem is that many planes have airspeed and altimeter gauges that are not visible in the default head position and that you have to move from default position to see them.
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Pffff....instruments are for flying in thick cloud only.
:bolt:
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Pffff....instruments are for flying in thick cloud only.
:bolt:
what cloud
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i'm willing to bet no more than 10% of the people in the arenas either know there is a g-meter, understand what it's for or pay attention to it.
That may perhaps be true. Perhaps only 1% of them know the most energy efficient way to accelerate or slow deceleration is to unload the plane to 0G, or that a plane's roll rate will increase when unloaded to 0G. This does not keep it from being true. And without your butt being in the seat, you will never learn the stick inputs that lead to a given G-loading unless you have a reference to glance out.
Speaking of accuracy, its easier to hit the target on snapshots when you aren't pulling Gs.
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what cloud
Exactly.
:angel:
wrongway