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General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: Major Biggles on June 11, 2011, 08:53:25 PM

Title: HTC; A kind request...
Post by: Major Biggles on June 11, 2011, 08:53:25 PM
Would you consider perhaps changing some of the plane ENYs now that the single MA has returned. There are some planes that really deserve an ENY higher than 40. Would be nice to see a return to the 60 ENY level for some planes. I really feel it would provide a little more incentive to fly earlier war planes. Also, there are some light bombers that could do with a higher OBJ level...

Pretty please?
Title: Re: HTC; A kind request...
Post by: Major Biggles on June 11, 2011, 10:15:24 PM
Nobody agrees/disagrees?
Title: Re: HTC; A kind request...
Post by: Sunka on June 11, 2011, 10:47:54 PM
I hate eny values and wish their was not any at all...i often fly the p 40 and the Fm's in late war,i think most of the best in the game would tell you that its not the plane but the driver.
Title: Re: HTC; A kind request...
Post by: Lusche on June 11, 2011, 10:50:00 PM
think most of the best in the game would tell you that its not the plane but the driver.


And they are wrong ;)
Title: Re: HTC; A kind request...
Post by: Sunka on June 11, 2011, 10:53:59 PM
I take down a lot of flyer's in way better planes then i fly all night long.Why is this?
EDIT....Non the less though,i still don't like Eny in any way ...or how kill shooter works in AH ,i know not all agree with me that's fine,I'm what one might call a purest
Title: Re: HTC; A kind request...
Post by: Lusche on June 11, 2011, 10:59:21 PM
I take down a lot of flyers in way better planes then i fly all night long.Why is this?

I didn't say the pilot doesn't matter. But "Pilot not plane" is as wrong as "Plane, not pilot" :)
Title: Re: HTC; A kind request...
Post by: Sunka on June 11, 2011, 11:07:28 PM
I didn't say the pilot doesn't matter. But "Pilot not plane" is as wrong as "Plane, not pilot" :)

Well i certainly think if you take two pilots of the same caliber and put one in a p 40 and one in a 190 the 190 stick will win hands down every time.
Title: Re: HTC; A kind request...
Post by: Karnak on June 11, 2011, 11:08:55 PM
A better pilot can make better maneuver choices for his given aircraft, but he is just as limited by that aircraft's limits as any other pilot and against something like a P-40 all a normal pilot in something like an La-7 needs to know is what game to not play and it forces the better pilot into pure defense.  He may still survive, but as long as the La-7 doesn't play the P-40E's game, the P-40E will never kill the La-7.  A great number of players in this game fail to fly that way and thus many an La-7 has fallen to a P-40E.
Title: Re: HTC; A kind request...
Post by: Sunka on June 11, 2011, 11:13:04 PM
A better pilot can make better maneuver choices for his given aircraft, but he is just as limited by that aircraft's limits as any other pilot and against something like a P-40 all a normal pilot in something like an La-7 needs to know is what game to not play and it forces the better pilot into pure defense.  He may still survive, but as long as the La-7 doesn't play the P-40E's game, the P-40E will never kill the La-7.  A great number of players in this game fail to fly that way and thus many an La-7 has fallen to a P-40E.

One of the first things MtnMan taught me when i first started training was the guy with the faster ride (if smart) can always control the fight.If he is smart enough..(or skilled enough)

Title: Re: HTC; A kind request...
Post by: Lusche on June 11, 2011, 11:35:04 PM
Well i certainly think if you take two pilots of the same caliber and put one in a p 40 and one in a 190 the 190 stick will win hands down every time.


Oh... that depends on a lot of variables. Two good pilots: probably, as the 190 is the faster plane. But then we haven't defined the parameters of the combat and the combat environment.
With two very new players, the outcome is even less certain, as the 190 pilot may have a hard time to get a weapons solution, with two pilots not being able to utilize their respective plane's strengths, the result will be somewhat more random.



Plane are just tools. Pilots acre craftsmen. Skill can overcome limits of cheap, crappy tools, but only so much. On there other hand, some tools are excellent, but require a big deal of experience and knowledge to be used correctly, those tools are wasted in the hand of a beginner.
So in the end it's "Pilot+Plane", with a lot of environmental variables thrown in.

Title: Re: HTC; A kind request...
Post by: Sunka on June 11, 2011, 11:39:09 PM

Oh... that depends on a lot of variables. Two good pilots: probably, as the 190 is the faster plane. But then we haven't defined the parameters of the combat and the combat environment.
With two very new players, the outcome is even less certain, as the 190 pilot may have a hard time to get a weapons solution, with two pilots not being able to utilize their respective plane's strengths, the result will be somewhat more random.



Plane are just tools. Pilots acre craftsmen. Skill can overcome limits of cheap, crappy tools, but only so much. On there other hand, some tools are excellent, but require a big deal of experience and knowledge to be used correctly, those tools are wasted in the hand of a beginner.
So in the end it's "Pilot+Plane", with a lot of environmental variables thrown in.



Agreed,but i would much rather fight a new guy in any (uber) plane then fight say you in an EW plane (if i want to win) as opposed to just having a good fight.
Title: Re: HTC; A kind request...
Post by: Lusche on June 11, 2011, 11:49:10 PM
Agreed,but i would much rather fight a new guy in any (uber) plane then fight say you in and EW plane (if i want to win) as opposed to just having a good fight.


I have very good success in EW planes in LW arena. But that's rarely result of a "fair fight", particularly not 1v1. Even a player of average skill can at least deny me the kill in such a situation, using the speed of his plane to control the situation, even if he can't kill me. You do not need much skill for that, only some common sense. In 1v1 situations I generally only kill those really dumb enough to fight me on MY terms (P-51 trying to flat turn with my Hurri I for example)

The majority of my kills though, comes from creating and exploiting very advantageous situations.
Title: Re: HTC; A kind request...
Post by: Sunka on June 11, 2011, 11:53:29 PM

I have very good success in EW planes in LW arena. But that's rarely result of a "fair fight", particularly not 1v1. Even a player of average skill can at least deny me the kill in such a situation, using the speed of his plane to control the situation, even if he can't kill me. You do not need much skill for that, only some common sense. In 1v1 situations I generally only kill those really dumb enough to fight me on MY terms (P-51 trying to flat turn with my Hurri I for example)

The majority of my kills though, comes from creating and exploiting very advantageous situations.
Well then i (think) you just made my point for me,its the pilot not the plane.
Title: Re: HTC; A kind request...
Post by: Lusche on June 11, 2011, 11:54:31 PM
Well then i (think) you just made my point for me,its the pilot not the plane.

 :huh
Title: Re: HTC; A kind request...
Post by: Sunka on June 12, 2011, 12:01:17 AM
:huh
lol i just went back and read the last of your statements as per your face ,and it is late here,but i stand by my statement ...i think   :rolleyes:
Title: Re: HTC; A kind request...
Post by: Lusche on June 12, 2011, 12:03:04 AM
lol i just went back and read the last of your statements as per your face ,and it is late here,but i stand by my statement ...i think   :rolleyes:
^
Well, if it's not the plane... why is my K/D Tempest, K4, Spit XVI and so on so much better than in 109F or Hurri I?
Why do planes like the P-39D or P-40B generally have an abysmal k/d? Are they flown only by the incompetent? (And if yes - why?)
Title: Re: HTC; A kind request...
Post by: Sunka on June 12, 2011, 12:18:26 AM
^
Well, if it's not the plane... why is my K/D Tempest, K4, Spit XVI and so on so much better than in 109F or Hurri I?
Why do planes like the P-39D or P-40B generally have an abysmal k/d? Are they flown only by the incompetent? (And if yes - why?)

Well you give a better stick a better bird and he will do ..well better.But if i put you in a Hurri I and a player that has been playing for less then a year in any LW bird and one of you (must die) i will put my money on you.

I don't think its (only) the pilot that matters,as you said their are all kinds of variables,but i would much rather be the me of today in an FM2 then the me of three years ago in a p 51.So maybe in my mind its like  70% pilot 30% plane or some stuff..I'm not a numbers guy. :neener:
Title: Re: HTC; A kind request...
Post by: ROC on June 12, 2011, 12:32:34 AM
Quote
Nobody agrees/disagrees?

What's there to agree/disagree on?  You asked HTC to change something, but were not specific about what it was you wanted changed.  Best they can do is change what they think you meant, probably be wrong because they have it where they think it should be, and have you come back and say that's not what you meant.

Try asking the question again and put something more specific behind it. 
Title: Re: HTC; A kind request...
Post by: Lusche on June 12, 2011, 12:37:06 AM
What's there to agree/disagree on?  You asked HTC to change something, but were not specific about what it was you wanted changed. 

 :headscratch:

I thought it was pretty clear. He wants to widen the ENY spectrum up to 60 again like it used tobe, instead of stopping at 40 for planes like the Spit I.
Title: Re: HTC; A kind request...
Post by: Major Biggles on June 12, 2011, 02:02:14 AM
:headscratch:

I thought it was pretty clear. He wants to widen the ENY spectrum up to 60 again like it used tobe, instead of stopping at 40 for planes like the Spit I.

Bang on what I meant. Make it so that there is an incentive to fly them in the MA (that incentive being the greater number of perks you can earn per kill). This is not a request about the ENY system in general, it's a request that some of the ENY values be changed to that there is a reason to fly the 'crappy' rides against the late war rides.
Title: Re: HTC; A kind request...
Post by: gyrene81 on June 12, 2011, 04:22:06 PM
Bang on what I meant. Make it so that there is an incentive to fly them in the MA (that incentive being the greater number of perks you can earn per kill). This is not a request about the ENY system in general, it's a request that some of the ENY values be changed to that there is a reason to fly the 'crappy' rides against the late war rides.
crappy rides? no idea what a crappy ride would be, every aircraft has it's strengths and weaknesses...even if there was the promise of 100 perks to shoot down a spixteen with a spit1, just as many people would do it as you see now...it's the mentality, nothing more.
Title: Re: HTC; A kind request...
Post by: mechanic on June 12, 2011, 04:31:48 PM
Quote

The majority of my kills though, comes from creating and exploiting very advantageous situations.


Quite the opposite for me. The majority of my kills come from exploiting the lack of ACMs of the enemy.
Title: Re: HTC; A kind request...
Post by: waystin2 on June 12, 2011, 04:43:50 PM
I would support it.  My question is what planes?  What ENY to what ENY?  etc...


Waystin2<----------C.202 addict :bhead
Title: Re: HTC; A kind request...
Post by: AWwrgwy on June 12, 2011, 04:49:52 PM

Quite the opposite for me. The majority of my kills come from exploiting the lack of ACMs of the enemy.

In your case, it's the pilot.

  :x


wrongway
Title: Re: HTC; A kind request...
Post by: Lusche on June 12, 2011, 04:55:53 PM

Quite the opposite for me. The majority of my kills come from exploiting the lack of ACMs of the enemy.


And your k/D is much than mine. Which most probably simply comes from the different approaches we take. Mine would be much lower too if I would only exploit the lack of ACM of the enemy.


(and don't forget: My statements were explicitly used in context of earlier, less capable vs late war planes discussion)
Title: Re: HTC; A kind request...
Post by: mechanic on June 12, 2011, 06:15:22 PM
I fly with reckless arrogance!  :D
Title: Re: HTC; A kind request...
Post by: Lusche on June 12, 2011, 06:17:50 PM
I fly with reckless arrogance!  :D

I fly with utmost  timidity  :bolt:
Title: Re: HTC; A kind request...
Post by: mechanic on June 12, 2011, 06:30:37 PM
I am also capable of utmost timidity. I enjoy this style very much, often at the start of a tour untill my first death. My favorite plane for this is the P51D and prefered altitude 18-25k.
I enjoy everything possible. I never want to pidgeon hole myself into one catagory.
Title: Re: HTC; A kind request...
Post by: DREDIOCK on June 12, 2011, 07:26:39 PM
I take down a lot of flyer's in way better planes then i fly all night long.Why is this?
EDIT....Non the less though,i still don't like Eny in any way ...or how kill shooter works in AH ,i know not all agree with me that's fine,I'm what one might call a purest

Trust me. I played in a game that didnt have kill shooter where if a friendly shot a friendly. the friendly being shot at took damage and blew up.

What you will end up with are  people who switch sides to help capture a base or clowns who think its funny to sit on the end of a runway and shoot up every plane that tries to up.
In the other guy after doing this 3 times. the next time you tried to up you were PNG and couldn't have any ammo for 24 hours. BUT that didnt help in the time it was being done. Kind of an after the fact punishment.

Here it works. If you dont just hold the trigger down and fire in short bursts like you should. And you pay attention to who and what is around you like you should be doing. and you dont insist on shooting over other peoples shoulders like you shouldnt be doing. The chances of you shooting yourself down become very small. I've been here over 11 years and the amount of times I've shot myself down or even damaged my own plane by hitting a friendly are minute in comparison to the amount of sorties I've had.
Title: Re: HTC; A kind request...
Post by: DREDIOCK on June 12, 2011, 07:50:01 PM

I have very good success in EW planes in LW arena. But that's rarely result of a "fair fight", particularly not 1v1. Even a player of average skill can at least deny me the kill in such a situation, using the speed of his plane to control the situation, even if he can't kill me. You do not need much skill for that, only some common sense. In 1v1 situations I generally only kill those really dumb enough to fight me on MY terms (P-51 trying to flat turn with my Hurri I for example)

The majority of my kills though, comes from creating and exploiting very advantageous situations.

Those type plots more often then not know their plane but not their opponents. And you can read all you want about the other planes but without having flown one yourself you never get a true feel for what it can and cant do well or what its capable of.  Such is the case with your pony Vs hurricane. I bet lot of those guys read the history books and watch TV where they tell what a superduper plane the pony was, or the spit or any of the other ezmode planes. Then they come here and fly only those planes because they are the easiest to fly and they have this uber rep and get their butts handed to them by "lessor" planes.

Couple main reasons for this is. unlike you or I,they never bother to take the time to learn the other planes very well, if at all. So they think well on the history channel they said this plane can do this or that and that or this very well. Then they come up against someone like you who not only knows what your plane can do. But what their plane can do as well. Then you just use your experience using your strengths against their weaknesses and are patient enough to goad them into fighting your fight. They loose patience with their standard tactics give up their advantage in the effort to get a quick kill and decide to fight your fight. End result. They get their butts handed to them.

If your smart you learn how to get kills using every, or as many different planes in the game as you can. Then when you go up against a P51 with a Hurricane. You know how to play them to your advantage
Title: Re: HTC; A kind request...
Post by: Sunka on June 12, 2011, 07:51:13 PM
Trust me. I played in a game that didnt have kill shooter where if a friendly shot a friendly. the friendly being shot at took damage and blew up.

What you will end up with are  people who switch sides to help capture a base or clowns who think its funny to sit on the end of a runway and shoot up every plane that tries to up.
In the other guy after doing this 3 times. the next time you tried to up you were PNG and couldn't have any ammo for 24 hours. BUT that didnt help in the time it was being done. Kind of an after the fact punishment.

Here it works. If you dont just hold the trigger down and fire in short bursts like you should. And you pay attention to who and what is around you like you should be doing. and you dont insist on shooting over other peoples shoulders like you shouldnt be doing. The chances of you shooting yourself down become very small. I've been here over 11 years and the amount of times I've shot myself down or even damaged my own plane by hitting a friendly are minute in comparison to the amount of sorties I've had.


I like how it worked in AW and would like that system in this game.As far as kill shooter, trust me i don't spray and pray i fly a p 51 b most times and i don't have the ammo to waste, i have a very very good hit % on fighters,the problem i have is saddling up on a guy taking the time to wear him down and i am 200 off him (i dont fire before 200) and you get pickers that dive in from way up and get right in front of me as they try to cherry pick.
Title: Re: HTC; A kind request...
Post by: Oldman731 on June 12, 2011, 08:43:14 PM

I like how it worked in AW and would like that system in this game.


The fraggers were irritating to the point of inciting virtual road rage.  I'm happy to give up that little extra dose of reality in exchange for freedom from fraggers.

- oldman
Title: Re: HTC; A kind request...
Post by: SmokinLoon on June 12, 2011, 09:23:40 PM

And they are wrong ;)

The plane has far more to do with the success of the pilot than most give credit for.  The speed, agility, or raw firepower of an aircraft can give an otherwise careless and uninterested pilot a huge buffer to hang their hat on.  

Dont kid yourself, the "fear the pilot not the plane" knee-jerk response only goes so far.   ;)  

Oh, and I highly support a MAJOR over-haul in the ENY settings.  Dont forget the OBJ settings either!
Title: Re: HTC; A kind request...
Post by: ROC on June 12, 2011, 09:46:36 PM
Quote
it's a request that some of the ENY values be changed to that there is a reason to fly the 'crappy' rides against the late war rides.

Some:  Which Ones?

Crappy: Define which ones you "think" are crappy and why you believe they are. 

See the problem here?  Vague, you are generalizing, and making broad assumptions hoping someone who can change the game knows what you mean.

You know what you mean, so it shouldn't be hard to just say it.  No mind readers here, except maybe
Lusche, but even there maybe you should compare notes cause it's possible he only thinks he knows what you mean :)  Who can say? 

I'm not agreeing or disagreeing with you, just asking for something specific to consider. 




Title: Re: HTC; A kind request...
Post by: grizz441 on June 12, 2011, 09:49:30 PM

The fraggers were irritating to the point of inciting virtual road rage.  I'm happy to give up that little extra dose of reality in exchange for freedom from fraggers.

- oldman


+1
Title: Re: HTC; A kind request...
Post by: Tilt on June 13, 2011, 04:52:58 AM
If it could be shown that certain early war birds had been de commissioned from active front line duty by 44 then I challenge why they were in a late war MA at all.  P40B? Spit1, Hurri1, others?

This may then permit the spreading of eny more appropriately over the remainder.
Title: Re: HTC; A kind request...
Post by: ImADot on June 13, 2011, 09:02:22 AM
If it could be shown that certain early war birds had been de commissioned from active front line duty by 44 then I challenge why they were in a late war MA at all.  P40B? Spit1, Hurri1, others?

Absolutely NOT.  I would challenge more people to climb out of their LW cannon-laden monsters and fly some of the earlier birds.  At least there's still a choice for people who like the challenge of it.

Maybe you want an arena with just Tempest, C-Hog, and N1K1?
Title: Re: HTC; A kind request...
Post by: LCADolby on June 13, 2011, 09:19:17 AM
If it could be shown that certain early war birds had been de commissioned from active front line duty by 44 then I challenge why they were in a late war MA at all.  P40B? Spit1, Hurri1, others?

This may then permit the spreading of eny more appropriately over the remainder.
That's a good point, if that could be shown. Perhaps the LWA should be changed to... the '1939-1945 Arena', if it turns out it currently contains a historically inaccurate plane set?
Title: Re: HTC; A kind request...
Post by: Tilt on June 13, 2011, 09:42:12 AM

Maybe you want an arena with just Tempest, C-Hog, and N1K1?

Maybe you want an arena where you can up your Sopwith  Camel and  take out an ME262. A boost to your ego may be but not a late WWII ac match.

On the basis that

Early= Sept 39 to Aug 41
Mid  = Sept 41 to Aug 43
Late = Sept 43 to Aug 45

Why should a Spit1, Hurri1, P40B, I-16? or any other ac with drawn from front line service be in the late war arena any more than a 262 should be in the early war arena.

So we call it the WWII arena as LCA Dolby suggests?

Title: Re: HTC; A kind request...
Post by: ImADot on June 13, 2011, 10:00:36 AM
Maybe you want an arena where you can up your Sopwith  Camel and  take out an ME262. A boost to your ego may be but not a late WWII ac match.

Why should a Spit1, Hurri1, P40B, I-16? or any other ac with drawn from front line service be in the late war arena any more than a 262 should be in the early war arena.

I need no ego boost; I play to have fun.  To me it's more fun if it takes a little skill and time to kill someone.  To each their own, I guess.

Why shouldn't Spit1, Hurri1, etc. be in the late war arena?  They still existed at that time; even if they weren't front-line planes anymore.  The 262 didn't exist in the early years, so it's ludicrous to made your argument that way.
Title: Re: HTC; A kind request...
Post by: Tilt on June 13, 2011, 10:25:02 AM

Why shouldn't Spit1, Hurri1, etc. be in the late war arena?  They still existed at that time; even if they weren't front-line planes anymore.  The 262 didn't exist in the early years, so it's ludicrous to made your argument that way.

No it isn't.........

262's were not in combat in 39 and Spit 1's were not in combat  in 45 . The logic is perfect.