Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Axis vs Allies => Topic started by: Shane on July 07, 2011, 01:04:24 PM
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here's your chance to provide some input about AvA icon settings...
make your voice heard.
http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,316191.0.html
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I liked the no icon but won't vote. I have about given up on it.
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come on! dont be ascared!
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shane dont let the weaksauce no icon get ya down you can always shoot at gomers in the DA.....
I like the no icon myself whenever I play in there but wont vote either.
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just cuz...
:noid
:bolt:
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Read the thread. They are so delusional it isn't even worth my time of posting my preference.
Pity too, the current setup looks fun if it weren't spoiled by simulating pilots with eyesight so bad they wouldn't be allowed to get a drivers license.
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So I can put you down for 6k icons fpr both?
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Was just in there tonight... looks like 2k icons all around, and no icon under 500' AGL or so.
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Was just in there tonight... looks like 2k icons all around, and no icon under 500' AGL or so.
Which creates an effect opposite of reality. In reality altitude was life, in the AvA altitude is death as they can easily see you and you cannot see them, granted if you have a lot of altitude they cannot get you either. Further, the mixed environment makes it harder to spot the iconless guys hanging out under 500'.
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You guys are mistaken. The current set up has low enemy icon range set at 0.
The icons do not disappear below a certain level.
Currently both friendly and enemy icons ranges are set at 6500 feet or 2.4K yards.
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Which creates an effect opposite of reality. In reality altitude was life, in the AvA altitude is death as they can easily see you and you cannot see them, granted if you have a lot of altitude they cannot get you either. Further, the mixed environment makes it harder to spot the iconless guys hanging out under 500'.
This is true, Found myself in this scituation many times yeaterday afternoon. Once the low con gets behind you there is little chance of escape.
Jimson, yesterday icons were 1.5K and off under 500ft.
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Jimson, yesterday icons were 1.5K and off under 500ft.
That is not how I set the arena up and it is not how it is currently set.
I have no explanation for how it could have gotten that way.
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I hope you understand that I'm not trying to argue, just telling what I experienced. :salute
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I understand.
I just don't know how enemy icons are disappearing low when I never had them set to do that.
:headscratch:
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I understand.
I just don't know how enemy icons are disappearing low when I never had them set to do that.
:headscratch:
well, they are. disappearing low that is.
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EnemyLowIconRange is set at 0 but that may be incorrect as the default setting is 10000.
Doesn't make sense to me, but I will make that change and we will see if that fixes it.
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Read the thread. They are so delusional it isn't even worth my time of posting my preference.
Pity too, the current setup looks fun if it weren't spoiled by simulating pilots with eyesight so bad they wouldn't be allowed to get a drivers license.
I take it you are not a real world pilot.
- oldman
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Pity too, the current setup looks fun if it weren't spoiled by simulating pilots with eyesight so bad they wouldn't be allowed to get a drivers license.
try it on a 37" widescreen LCD at 1920x1080, no problem spotting anything at all :neener:
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Seems like a lot are expressing a preference of around 3k icons, that doesn't seem too delusional.
Is it realistic to be able to ID aircraft at 6k, 60 football fields or nearly 3.5 miles?
What settings does the SEA use?
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It is very disappointing to see the AVA move away from the no icon experiment. While not perfect it added something to the game and gave a least a little hope that a better icon system would be developed that better represented reality and preserved the visual glory of a close in fight.
I have long championed a revised icon system that aided the player in the middle ranges where the computer cannot simulate reality very well yet disappeared in close.
It doesn't appear this will happen.
I think player arenas are the last hope but I'm not sure they will ever reappear.
I made myself a promise a little over a year ago to support AH as long as there was a no icon option and to not support them if it was eliminated. I thought the AVA was solidly committed to keeping the no enemy icon idea alive but it appears they have succumbed to the pressure.
So adios until the next iteration of no icons or player arenas or an overhaul of the icon system.
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Great now guys are quiting..
The icon lovers are a bit ignorant about icon settings.. They have not taken the time to learn or master the settings they are generally of the immediate gratification mentality and have not invested or-changed with technological advances in the flight siming world.. Tools like Track ir ect...
Yet the pontificate as if they are all knowing about both sides of the icon argument, when really they only have experience with icons on and very limeted experience with them off.
Pepole generally mock what they don't understand... its a very closed minded mentality..Its the biggest factor that limits the advancement of the AH comunity away from icon dependence
The unwillingness to try something new and more realistic is mind boggling.
AC type in the real world cant be positively identified from 6k.... its totally gammy at that setting
With icons off AC type can be positively identified at 400-1000 that's closer to real life..
Track Ir makes no icons allot of fun.... If your serious about your flight simming, Invest in one and your no icon argument will take a 180deg turn... It did for me.
Even if your not up for no icons a trackir will make your icon game allot more fun as well.......Its 2011 pepole...Get off the hat switch dinosaur. :joystick:
Also just becouse sombody has a plutonium or radioactive in there avitar dosnt mean the are all knowing...
(http://simhq.net/ads/ads/SimHQ_crash_TIR.gif) (http://youtu.be/_AO0F5sLdVM)
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Ouch! Everyone needs to take a step back and breathe deeply.
I've played in the AvA enough to get used to no icons. I agree that 6k icons is a general-masses gameplay consideration, but have come to the conclusion that no enemy icons is a bit much (unless dotdar is active all the time for both sides). After all, it's a combat game with the intent to be able to find someone with whom to engage in combat. I think, and added my post to the AvA poll, that 3k icons for both sides is a good compromise - which is the settinges used in the SEA for FSO.
What's the first thing people do everywhere? They pork the radar so the enemy has a harder time finding them. Unless you're trying to take the base, this is counter-productive to finding and engaging in combat. With 3k icons, you at least have a better chance to find someone to fight. Even though you have a good idea the type of plane you're likely to encounter, spotting them at 3k out at least gives you a chance to access the situation and begin some kind of ACM.
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It's been proven beyond any doubt by countless people that full icons is far more realistic to show what the human eye can see in real life than no icons is. No icons is a farce used under the guise of elistism and inflated superiority. Just look at any "no icons" argument and the only claims they can use to defend themselves are "you suck if you don't master flying with no icons"
It is neither a crutch nor a cheat nor is it unrealistic. The human eye sees a sh**load more than any computer monitor can display, ever. It sees it better, faster, with much easier reactions and motions.
The reason most shot-down pilots in WW2 never saw the enemy that shot them down was because they weren't looking, not because they were looking and could not see the enemy.
If the "no icons" folks are going to leave because icons get turned back on in the AvA, maybe they need to master actual fighting and manuvering rather than relying on "being lost" by the target at 100 yards. Maybe it's not a bad thing they want to quit over this petty artificially-inflated premise going away.
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what? free track IR? :O
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Krusty that is a load of cynical jibber jabber.
Have you considered that some of us actualy enjoy the realism in the sense of not having neon pixels flashing above every plane. It's not elitism, it's an immersion preference.
Maybe you will see what I mean if you watch a video I made from another sim, here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YygiM6FXLXQ&feature=player_detailpage#t=0s
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When the first Spits and Thunderbolts started their escort work last spring, trigger-itchy gunners of Forts and Liberators warned them that it was hard to distinguish between friend & foe in an air battle. Some friendly fighters were shot down before fighters learned never to point their noses at bombers, as attacking Nazis do. Some bomber men had to be taught better recognition and understanding of fighter tactics.
TIME - Monday, Dec. 27, 1943
Read more: http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,851983,00.html#ixzz1RoDVeQXp
I fully grant that a PC screen is far degraded from what the human eye is capable of distinguishing.
Nevertheless, here men on a relatively stable platform had a hard time making positive identification of a plane up to the point of opening fire and shooting them down.
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well,
the special thing about the AVA was allways the No Icon setup
look here, no problem to trace the opponent
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LrNCmPna3ZQ
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It's been proven beyond any doubt by countless people that full icons is far more realistic to show what the human eye can see in real life than no icons is. No icons is a farce used under the guise of elistism and inflated superiority. Just look at any "no icons" argument and the only claims they can use to defend themselves are "you suck if you don't master flying with no icons"
It is neither a crutch nor a cheat nor is it unrealistic. The human eye sees a sh**load more than any computer monitor can display, ever. It sees it better, faster, with much easier reactions and motions.
The reason most shot-down pilots in WW2 never saw the enemy that shot them down was because they weren't looking, not because they were looking and could not see the enemy.
If the "no icons" folks are going to leave because icons get turned back on in the AvA, maybe they need to master actual fighting and manuvering rather than relying on "being lost" by the target at 100 yards. Maybe it's not a bad thing they want to quit over this petty artificially-inflated premise going away.
I've been flying online for 14 years and in real airplanes for 27 years. I've done a lot of experimentation with visual acuity and talked to real world fighter guys who also played online about what would make an icon system emulate reality while overcoming the shortcomings of the PC monitor.
I want a better icon system, one that recognizes the shortcomings of the PC without making the icon a neon billboard that destroys the visual beauty of the game.
It will never happen because of people like Krusty who refuse to see any middle ground.
There are two choices at the moment. Neon billboards or no neon billboards.
I will not pay money for a game with multiple arenas that does not offer at least one with the enemy icons turned off.
When AH finishes the private arena code and I can find no icons once again I will gladly pay money again.
There is only one vote that matters to a business.
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I don't know how it has been proven beyond a doubt that aircraft can be identified at over 3 miles distance, but I suspect it can be done at longer ranges than the 400 to 800 yards at which you can make out the plane shapes in AH.
The question is what range is more realistic?
One thing this debate has shown is that there are more than just a couple of bull headed staffers forcing the settings on everyone.
Quite a few people actually did like it.
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Some of you may know this and if I am repeating information you already know I apologize.
You can set the icons to change depending on your altitude. The setting that does that is the 'enemylow icon range'. The enemylow icon range is tied to the radar altitude setting.
For example, you could have the icons set to 3k for both enemy and friendly, and the radar alt set to 500 feet. Then you set the enemylow icon range to 1k. As long as everyone is above 500' the icons will remain 3k, but the moment someone is below 500 feet (radar alt setting) the enemylow icon range kicks in and the enemy icon switches to 1k.
Hope that helps.
<S>
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It's been proven beyond any doubt by countless people that full icons is far more realistic to show what the human eye can see in real life than no icons is. No icons is a farce used under the guise of elistism and inflated superiority.
Seriously, Krusty, when was the last time you tried to identify a WWII-size airplane from another airplane in real life? It is not nearly as easy as you seem to think it is; all the mid-airs around the world's airports should be proof enough.
- oldman
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Some of you may know this and if I am repeating information you already know I apologize.
You can set the icons to change depending on your altitude. The setting that does that is the 'enemylow icon range'. The enemylow icon range is tied to the radar altitude setting.
For example, you could have the icons set to 3k for both enemy and friendly, and the radar alt set to 500 feet. Then you set the enemylow icon range to 1k. As long as everyone is above 500' the icons will remain 3k, but the moment someone is below 500 feet (radar alt setting) the enemylow icon range kicks in and the enemy icon switches to 1k.
Hope that helps.
<S>
Interesting, so if enemylowicon range is set at 3k as well, the icons will stay the same regardless of alt?
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It's been proven beyond any doubt by countless people that full icons is far more realistic to show what the human eye can see in real life than no icons is. No icons is a farce used under the guise of elistism and inflated superiority. Just look at any "no icons" argument and the only claims they can use to defend themselves are "you suck if you don't master flying with no icons"
It is neither a crutch nor a cheat nor is it unrealistic. The human eye sees a sh**load more than any computer monitor can display, ever. It sees it better, faster, with much easier reactions and motions.
The reason most shot-down pilots in WW2 never saw the enemy that shot them down was because they weren't looking, not because they were looking and could not see the enemy.
If the "no icons" folks are going to leave because icons get turned back on in the AvA, maybe they need to master actual fighting and manuvering rather than relying on "being lost" by the target at 100 yards. Maybe it's not a bad thing they want to quit over this petty artificially-inflated premise going away.
Not sure If you know this or not In real life it can be fairly hard to see an a/c almost on top of you. depending on any and all outside factors....
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Great now guys are quiting..
The icon lovers are a bit ignorant about icon settings.. They have not taken the time to learn or master the settings they are generally of the immediate gratification mentality and have not invested or-changed with technological advances in the flight siming world..
That is incredibly rude and insulting to everyone that may not agree with your point of view.
I want a better icon system, one that recognizes the shortcomings of the PC without making the icon a neon billboard that destroys the visual beauty of the game.
Agreed! My idea in the past was to use a dot that was underneath the aircraft that grew as distance lessened. This way, if you're hapazardly scanning the sky you could miss it but were less likely to do so as closer ranges. In addition, you could miss the dot if the bandit was flying low enough to get confused in the ground clutter.
Some happy medium has to be found between the 'neon billboard' (tm Dawger) and Stevie Wonder in the skies of Aces High.
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Can I ask you no icon guys a question? How do you feel about the unrealistically wide field of view you get from your monitor versus real life and the advantage that gives you being able to look around your plane versus zooming in so you have a more realistic 1:1 view through your monitor?
Wiley.
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Also just because somebody has a plutonium or radioactive in their avatar doesn't mean they are all knowing...
goes for any other element of the periodic tables too! Only Skuzzy is all knowing! (http://i286.photobucket.com/albums/ll100/atcnick/smiley_bowdown.gif?t=1242063151)
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It's been proven beyond any doubt by countless people that full icons is far more realistic to show what the human eye can see in real life than no icons is. No icons is a farce used under the guise of elistism and inflated superiority. Just look at any "no icons" argument and the only claims they can use to defend themselves are "you suck if you don't master flying with no icons"
It is neither a crutch nor a cheat nor is it unrealistic. The human eye sees a sh**load more than any computer monitor can display, ever. It sees it better, faster, with much easier reactions and motions.
The reason most shot-down pilots in WW2 never saw the enemy that shot them down was because they weren't looking, not because they were looking and could not see the enemy.
If the "no icons" folks are going to leave because icons get turned back on in the AvA, maybe they need to master actual fighting and manuvering rather than relying on "being lost" by the target at 100 yards. (<<<That is elitism and inflated superiority at its best :rolleyes:) Maybe it's not a bad thing they want to quit over this petty artificially-inflated premise going away.
Bull!
one can Positively Id AC type in real life 400-1000 at best.. That's were Ac type is idenifialbe in AH.... test it... at 400-1000 with no icons on you can Id AC type just like real world. In real world your not going to id ac type beyond that .. Mr k your just plane wrong... that is why no icons are more realistic and immersing, you guys are just looking for easy and instant gratification.you have no point of reference other than your limeted no icon flight time put in more time and your opinion will change..
I flew with against above mentioned mr K in the AVA... heck of a nice guy on coms btw... He seems to turn into Dr Mr hide on the BBS though..Anyway the second time I slapped him and his wing man down he immediately when into that's why I hate no icons he said he couldn't see me...
I mean the guy could see my red dot heading at him on DAR and I saw him just fine, his DAR dot for one showed up.. and I could also see a black con coming my way even against the ground clutter because it was a 'moving' black dot.... its a no brain-er... .. I had to even let him shoot me down once so he wouldn't feel bad and leave. WTF I had the same settings as he did and I saw him :headscratch
Guys are threatened by the settings they are set in their ways and do not want to change, and some are unwilling to relearn something new. Instead they :cry when things don't go their way and give up... walking off saying.... "this sucks :mad:"
The entitlement instant gratification attitude that is sweeping this generation is mind boggling....
Noboby is saying that no icons make you, elite, better or anything of the sort.
No Icons just makes a dog fight feel way more exiting. Everything happens at a faster pace and by default its way more thrilling and AMC are 10X's more effective... your communication needs to be tip top and your wing tactics do as well to prevail.
I flew in the AVA last night with icons set at 2.4 and truthfully speaking only for myself not the staff To me it was a step backwards..
But the guys are doing what they feel is best to grow the arena and they want to make it appeal to the MA crowed I think its a nobale effort because they are trying to please more guys.
I just think it kind of counters the spirit of the AVA in regard to realism and immersion... but they do mean well.. The majority of the staff enjoys Icons and it looks like that's the direction the arena will me moving at this point. Just not my cup of tea..
That said others do like those settings and they are entitled to them they have plenty of servers to fly icons already icons dominate AH...
We should not criticise them for liking "icons on" any more than they should criticise us for not liking "icons off" but generally if you say you like no icons the guys that want icons on attack you for it...
So far that's how it generally plays out in this comunity.
As all the other arenas are MA like and have icons on it would be nice to have at-least one arena that offered no icons to give the ones that like no icons a place to fly. as it sits now its icons or the highway in AH there is not on single arena that allows no icons so it seems a bit of a one way street to me..
I don't think wanting one place to fly No icons is asking to much. As it sits now The AH comunity has an attitude of only icons on and if you don't like it to bad as demonstrated in the fact that every arena has icons on as of now...
Be nice if we could have a No icon arena like early war AVA mid war ext. .......Just becouse some of us like no icons it we are considered to be full of elistism and inflated superiority.. :rolleyes:
(http://simhq.net/ads/ads/SimHQ_crash_TIR.gif) (http://youtu.be/_AO0F5sLdVM)
That is incredibly rude and insulting to everyone that may not agree with your point of view.
Right back at yea :aok
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Correct me if I am wrong but there is a way to make everybody happy here. Folks can turn off icons if they choose to, or leave them on if they want to. Everybody is happy! :aok
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Correct me if I am wrong but there is a way to make everybody happy here. Folks can turn off icons if they choose to, or leave them on if they want to. Everybody is happy! :aok
you're very correct in that icons are a toggable feature...
something the no-icon = immersion fellas conveniently continue to ignore - they always have because it's not so much about "immersion" as it is taking advantage of the no-icons to mitigate their own suckage. :noid
when asked to go no-icons all the way for both sides, high-pitched voices squeak in about "how can i give a check 6?" my answer? just like they did in the real show - holler over radio and hope they guy is listening amidst the radio chatter. radio comms = "immersion," right?
But what really gets me is how disparate icons (none for enemy and 1-3k for friendly - or some variation thereof where the friendly has an icon advantage over the enemy) often lead to the very things that the AvA has been held up as (and constantly shot down as being not). This disparity results in both an unfair advantage to friendlies (easier to set up picks) and leads to ganging as a friendly wanders over to two distant dots but has to get within practical engaement range (about 3k) to positively identify what's going on and by that point it's "well, since I'm already here..."
icons or no icons i don't really care; i do care that whatever the settings are, they are the exact same for both.
ideally I'd like the "dot-con" concept, and I'd be fine with it being a constant size (for both sides... no range data - just dot/planetype for enemy and dot/alt-i... no range data, for friendly.
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serious disadvantage there you can lose a guy easy behind a part of your canopy(and not regain vis till hes shooting) but he will only lose you for a few seconds unless he has a very large plate or something obscuring his view.
Makes it fun in AvA becuase you can acually sneak up on people sometimes with dot dar on.(no tracers is a plus)
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you're very correct in that icons are a toggable feature...
something the no-icon = immersion fellas conveniently continue to ignore - they always have because it's not so much about "immersion" as it is taking advantage of the no-icons to mitigate their own suckage. :noid
when asked to go no-icons all the way for both sides, high-pitched voices squeak in about "how can i give a check 6?" my answer? just like they did in the real show - holler over radio and hope they guy is listening amidst the radio chatter. radio comms = "immersion," right?
But what really gets me is how disparate icons (none for enemy and 1-3k for friendly - or some variation thereof where the friendly has an icon advantage over the enemy) often lead to the very things that the AvA has been held up as (and constantly shot down as being not). This disparity results in both an unfair advantage to friendlies (easier to set up picks) and leads to ganging as a friendly wanders over to two distant dots but has to get within practical engaement range (about 3k) to positively identify what's going on and by that point it's "well, since I'm already here..."
icons or no icons i don't really care; i do care that whatever the settings are, they are the exact same for both.
ideally I'd like the "dot-con" concept, and I'd be fine with it being a constant size (for both sides... no range data - just dot/planetype for enemy and dot/alt-i... no range data, for friendly.
The problem I see with turning them off individually in an arena were they are on for others is that it creates an uneven playing field again but this time for the guy that turn icons off.
From my experience the desired effect of game play derived from no icons settings is lost. No icons both sides creates a very different style of game play than you will get with icons on for both sides.
The fights are different for one between Icons off and icons on.
With icons OFF there is less ganging and globing on Acm's are much more effective and communication team work and formation come into play much more.
To me that is a bit more realistic and historical..
Icons off for enimy and on for freindly is silly. I agree
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Acm's are much more effective
:headscratch:
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Interesting, so if enemylowicon range is set at 3k as well, the icons will stay the same regardless of alt?
That is my understanding jimson. Having played with the icon settings and the enemy low icon setting and how it ties into the radar alt numerous times. :) If you set the enemy low iconrange also to 3k which is the same as the enemy and friendly icon range then nothing will change no matter what you set the radar alt to be.
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Somebody better check Raven for rabies. :uhoh
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Bull!
one can Positively Id AC type in real life 400-1000 at best..
You need to get your eyes checked.
Is the situation complex? Yes, a Spitfire and Bf109 from directly to the rear look similar at much closer ranges than they do in planeform, but I 100% guarantee that I can tell the difference between them at 1000 yards instantly if I am looking at them from any angle other than directly to the rear or front.
You are delusional with how short ranged you think eyesight is.
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I prefer a no-icon AvA, but support turning them on for an arena more players will enjoy. Outta here! :bolt:
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It's been proven beyond any doubt by countless people that full icons is far more realistic to show what the human eye can see in real life than no icons is. No icons is a farce used under the guise of elistism and inflated superiority. Just look at any "no icons" argument and the only claims they can use to defend themselves are "you suck if you don't master flying with no icons"
It is neither a crutch nor a cheat nor is it unrealistic. The human eye sees a sh**load more than any computer monitor can display, ever. It sees it better, faster, with much easier reactions and motions.
The reason most shot-down pilots in WW2 never saw the enemy that shot them down was because they weren't looking, not because they were looking and could not see the enemy.
If the "no icons" folks are going to leave because icons get turned back on in the AvA, maybe they need to master actual fighting and manuvering rather than relying on "being lost" by the target at 100 yards. Maybe it's not a bad thing they want to quit over this petty artificially-inflated premise going away.
krusty... why do you say this when you know fully well you can ID an aircraft at any long range if you look closely enough with the zoom (which is 1:1 IRL ratio). with that said, i'd prefer no icons in a historic setting due to the ability to see enemy and ally from long range by studying the silouettes. in the MA they need icons whether they are 6K or more is fine. 6K can tell you the difference between an enemy typhoon and an allied one with enough time to react to the threat. In a historical situation this is not needed
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Stop calling any of this realistic in real world terms of immersion. This is a 2D rendering of a 3D environment that we like chaseing each other around in. Vision is only approximated because we are focusing on a 2D panel 24-42 inches from our eyes. That means our eyes are never used in mid, far, or wide focus mode. We use exclusivly near focus to make out the pixels that are rendered to us to approximate width, depth and distance. HiTech feeds our brains a visual trick and we respond with "willingness to immerse" then let our imaginations take over and fill in the rest.
You are arguing the visual quality and clairity of 60 flat paintings every second that try to emulated a 3D lighted world. NOne of our eye's, LCD and vidcards show us this exactly the same as each other. Yet we argue from the single unique window into this picture show that is our own perspective of the pictures in front of us. But, with absolutly no experience to what those we argue against see on their monitor. You would be surprised how many variences in the ability to see colors and combinations of colors our eyes have across the population. We don't all percive green, brown, yellow, grey and blue the same when they are patterened next to each other. The colors presented to us in the game are how someone in the HTC production staff sees color in the real world.
None or limited Icons is just another way to play the game and has its fans. Just different than the full Icons in the MA's not better. AvA limited Icons always seems to have bad light conditions and everyone hiding in the dirt waiting to reverse pick you and run away. Just the reverse of the MA's perch position to start the pick. That posted film from IL2 looked like all the spits were AI. Nice eyecandy but in Aces High the 109 hero would have been dead very soon after the first pass staying that close to so may spits.
Why not you no icon guys goto the DA with shane and 1v1 duel him with no icons turned on? Then Hiding in the dirt or alt stops being the strongest ACM manuver.
Here is something I found from a pilot with 35 years active flying about visual recognition and vision.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Subject: Re: HOW FAR AWAY CAN A PILOT DETECT AN AIRCRAFT WITH THE NAKED EYE
Answered By: omnivorous-ga on 20 Oct 2003 15:31 PDT
Kongulu --
As you can imagine, there are many variables that determine how far
away an aircraft is visible. However, the FAA's exhibits in Advisory
Circular AC 90-48C imply that air-to-air visibility for another large
aircraft should be about 10 miles:
Avweb
"A Radar for All Seasons" (FAA AC 90-48C, March 18, 1983)
http://www.avweb.com/newspics/ac90-48c.gif
Advisory Circular AC 90-48C (Pilots' Role in Collision Avoidance)
http://www.avweb.com/news/news/183050-1.html
In all of my years of flying (over 35), I can tell you that it's hard
to see another aircraft, often even at 1 mile. I've spent lots of my
time flying in and out of Paine Field, where Boeing produces its
wide-body aircraft -- and in areas such as Moses Lake, WA where pilots
are trained on wide body aircraft.
I have seen other objects -- most notably a hot air balloon backlit by
the setting sun late in the day -- from 10-15 miles.
Your best chances of spotting another plane are:
? when it is above you
? at night, when lighting makes aircraft visible for dozens of miles
? when there's a contrasting background (such as an aircraft flying
across the snow field of Mt. Rainier)
? at high altitude where the air is clearer -- and in the mountain and
coastal ranges like the western U.S. where the air is free of dust and
humidity.
You may have seen aircraft flying at altitudes of 35,000' to 45,000'
above you. What you notice first is the vapor trail, typically only
visible at altitudes above 35,000'. Even with a plane at 35,000' or
almost 7 miles, it's difficult to detect the plane -- even from the
ground, where you're stationary.
There are many attributes that reduce the visibility of another
aircraft, including the structure of the eye itself. The Airman's
Information Manual (AIM) notes, in its recommendations on proper
scanning techniques, that "foveal" vision -- the smaller center in the
rear of the eye -- provides only about a 10 degree angle for sharpest
vision. In warning pilots to set up a series of narrow scan in
successive 10-degree arcs, the AIM "An aircraft at a distance of 7
miles which appears in sharp focus with the foveal center of vision
would have to be as close as 7/10 of a mile in order to be recognized
if it were outside of foveal vision."
Federal Aviation Administration
AIM
Section: 8-1-6 Vision in Flight
One of the best documents on best practices for collision avoidance is
this Aicraft Owners' & Pilots Association (AOPA) publication:
AOPA
"Collision Avoidance" (2002)
http://www.aopa.org/asf/publications/sa15.pdf
In order to help pilots overcome the weaknesses of vision, we tend to
rely on several things:
1. a route structure that separates eastbound and westbound aircraft
into odd (east) and even (west) altitudes
2. commercial aircraft carry TCAS (Traffic Alert and Control Systems)
that electronically track other aircraft nearby:
Mitre Corporation
Traffic Alert and Control Systems (May 21, 2003)
http://www.caasd.org/proj/tcas/
3. and we rely on Air Traffic Control alerts about nearby
traffic. When you're flying cross-country and see few of the
airplanes nearby, it makes you realize how tough it is to see other
aircraft.
Google search strategy:
"collision avoidance" + vision + aircraft
Best regards,
Omnivorous-GA
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air-to-air visibility for another large
aircraft should be about 10 miles:
Thank you, Bustr. The key word here is "large." Generally, if you know what direction to look (think dot dar) you can pick out airliners at a good distance. Smaller aircraft - such as WWII aircraft size - are much much more difficult to see, particularly if they are below you. I think the no icons settings simulate this very accurately.
- oldman
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Thank you, Bustr. The key word here is "large." Generally, if you know what direction to look (think dot dar) you can pick out airliners at a good distance. Smaller aircraft - such as WWII aircraft size - are much much more difficult to see, particularly if they are below you. I think the no icons settings simulate this very accurately.
- oldman
Indeed it does. We have the equivalent of dot dar in the plane I fly in the real world. Airliners are fairly easy to spot using the TCAS system. Small aircraft are much more difficult, especially against similar color background.
It is amazing the number of aircraft you never see.
There are tragic examples of large aircraft hitting each other head on without one ever seeing the other.
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Bull!
one can Positively Id AC type in real life 400-1000 at best..
Whatever else is written in this thread I have no comment about, but that is rubbish. I have professional experience standing in Cab, identifying light aircraft by type beyond 3 miles. It's done every day at hundreds of airports across the planet.
If you couldn't positively id them until 400-1000 (at best) life would be very exciting....and short.
rgds
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Whatever else is written in this thread I have no comment about, but that is rubbish. I have professional experience standing in Cab, identifying light aircraft by type beyond 3 miles. It's done every day at hundreds of airports across the planet.
If you couldn't positively id them until 400-1000 (at best) life would be very exciting....and short.
rgds
So it is your contention that you can reliably identify manufacturer and model of an aircraft the size of a Me-109 at 18,000 feet or more range? I'm not talking about just seeing them and knowing there is a small airplane three miles away. That can be done. I am talking about identifying them without prior knowledge of type from communicating with the pilot.
That would be pretty impressive.
20/20 is the visual acuity needed to discriminate two points separated by 1 arc minute or about 1/16 of an inch at 20 feet.
This translates into a person with 20/20 vision requiring a letter E 112 feet tall at 3 miles to be able to read the letter yet persons here are claiming to be able to pick out details of a aircraft no more than 25 feet in any dimension.
I am amazed. Shocked, even.
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Whatever else is written in this thread I have no comment about, but that is rubbish. I have professional experience standing in Cab,
Do you mean identifying planes in flight from a position on the ground? Much easier to see a plane against the sky than it is against the earth. This is so in a no-icons environment as well, no one complains about not being able to see bogies above you. The trouble is picking them out co-alt or below, where the background is the earth. Then it's quite difficult, both in the game and in real life.
- oldman
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It's done every day at hundreds of airports across the planet.
Is that with binoculars? At approach speed (vs cruising or high speed combat)?
Best.
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The two sides of this argument won't agree because there is no reason to. Just accept some of us are boob men and others are tush men. Then split the name Aces High into two catagories.
Aces High - Where the boob men fly high in the sky in the MA.
Aces Low - Where the tush men fly low in the dirt in the AvA.
Hmmm, there is that furball lake kind of insanity........ :noid
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mmMMMMmmmm Bacon :D
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Here's a suggestion for an AvA arena icon setting that should not require too much boolean, and could possibly make the next update:
Add a system parameter that allows the arena administrator to set all icons to the same color (like light grey for example?).
This would give the anti-"no icons" player the ability to better see planes at a "safer" distance, but not instantly identify friend or foe by those neon red and green billboards. You'd still have to read the plane type. This could get tricky in a furball of any size.
Pro-"no icons" players would at least not have to bear the blazing red and green billboards. Check sixes for friendlies could still be made as well (I'd guess).
IIRC individuals can set icon colors on their front end as they wish, but as far as I know, there is no system parameter to force a single color across the entire arena.
This seems to be a very simple, workable compromise.
Comments???
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Comments???
The AvA staff has no control over the coding.
- oldman
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Here's a suggestion for an AvA arena icon setting that should not require too much boolean, and could possibly make the next update:
Add a system parameter that allows the arena administrator to set all icons to the same color (like light grey for example?).
This would give the anti-"no icons" player the ability to better see planes at a "safer" distance, but not instantly identify friend or foe by those neon red and green billboards. You'd still have to read the plane type. This could get tricky in a furball of any size.
Pro-"no icons" players would at least not have to bear the blazing red and green billboards. Check sixes for friendlies could still be made as well (I'd guess).
IIRC individuals can set icon colors on their front end as they wish, but as far as I know, there is no system parameter to force a single color across the entire arena.
This seems to be a very simple, workable compromise.
Comments???
Light grey for both sides?
I kind of like this idea.
I think there is some merit here, but like Oldman says that would be up to HTC.
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Here's a suggestion for an AvA arena icon setting that should not require too much boolean, and could possibly make the next update:
Add a system parameter that allows the arena administrator to set all icons to the same color (like light grey for example?).
This would give the anti-"no icons" player the ability to better see planes at a "safer" distance, but not instantly identify friend or foe by those neon red and green billboards. You'd still have to read the plane type. This could get tricky in a furball of any size.
Pro-"no icons" players would at least not have to bear the blazing red and green billboards. Check sixes for friendlies could still be made as well (I'd guess).
IIRC individuals can set icon colors on their front end as they wish, but as far as I know, there is no system parameter to force a single color across the entire arena.
This seems to be a very simple, workable compromise.
Comments???
Single color icons that allowed switching off inside a minimum distance would be a very good start. The single color would aid in seeing but not identifying friend or foe.
Absence of type ID of course would be necessary.
No range information also would be required.
A soft halo has been suggested in the past as it would give aspect information. Color could be made to slowly fade or intensify to represent closure without giving precise data.
And the icon disappearing completely inside of 800 yards would preserve the visuals of the close in fight.
All of the above are at least ten year old ideas, so I'm not going to hold my breath in anticipation of the code or coad.
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Years ago I made a wishlist item about icons that automaticaly turn off under 800 yards. I advised to map the icons toggle button to my stick and do it manualy. I never did bother because it was too much complications to scroll through the different icons settings rather than just clean 'on/off' function. I still think it would be a lovely option to have, could call it 'Dynamic Icon Mode' or something. The planes look so good up close on a decent computer, the icon just takes away from that at close ranges, imo.
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Putting aside the shallow and ignorant mockery -
To the guys that are generally querying what features that allow you to identify at distance:
Identifying features vary on different aircraft. Once you learn the "set" it's not hard to identify types at quite long distances. Old hands find aircraft faster and identify them much further out than novices. You only reach for the binoculars when you have two similar types in the same area and you need to pick who is first etc.. You simply couldn't work if you had to id them all that way.
Speed makes absolutely no difference to the id task. Having said that, it is unusual for approaching aircraft to be >200 kts with the exception of fast military. An aircraft coming in very fast may be easier to identify simply because it's usually a rare thing unless at a military or joint-user field.
So what do you look for? Not the makers name or rego obviously. Number of engines, high or low wing, size, wing tips (tanks, fairings, rounded or square), fuselage shape, undercarriage can be useful (fixed or otherwise). Some aircraft have other charachteristics that make them easy to id at very long distances. A B52 coming in low can be spotted many miles out - not by size but by the smoke trail. There are far less aircaft types in AH than in real life (pity) and amonst the types present there are some quite strong if features.
A while ago I had the pleasure of visiting the UK and attending flying legends at Duxfords. They conclude that show with a flypast known as a "Balbo". The nature of such a flypast requires the aircraft to form and approach the field in a very wide circuit. Neither I nor the people around me had any difficulty sorting one type from another by naked eye at considerable distances. Now here is the thing - watch the same flypast on youtube, on your computer, and you are faced with the same problems you have in AH. The flat 2D world and tiny screen vs half a sky robs you of the clues you need until they get so close you could sneeze on them. Here, have a look:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tj07ITv_tTw&feature=related (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tj07ITv_tTw&feature=related)
If you go outside and start watching planes fly over you may be well surprised at how easy they are to identify. It's far easier than on Youtube.
Historically there was much mis-identification of aircraft especially early in WW2. Poor training, poor knowledge of the opposing plane types (especially Japanese) and fear and stress all had a role in mis-identification. Hurricanes being shot down by Spitfires over Dunkirk - how can you explain that? They were close enough to shoot them so they had to be close enough to id them? You'd think! I wasn't there but I'd be surprised if the explanation was "they were really hard to see at 1200 feet so we shot them anyway, just to be sure........
rgds
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Years ago I made a wishlist item about icons that automaticaly turn off under 800 yards.
:aok
I've probably read it too, and many ideas of others as well, so I make no claim for an original idea. :D
My only thought was to suggest a relatively simple-to-implement system parameter as a first step for further development, if that should ever be done.
The AvA staff has no control over the coding.
Very true. My suggestion was for HTC since they too read all these forums. :)
Single color icons would add a lot to scenarios too, not just AvA.
If the new H2H system gets rolling, then it would offer a middle ground option between blazing red and green and no icons for those arenas as well.
All of the above are at least ten year old ideas, so I'm not going to hold my breath in anticipation of the code or coad.
Alas, the wheels of progress turn slowly... :salute
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:aok
I've probably read it too, and many ideas of others as well, so I make no claim for an original idea. :D
My only thought was to suggest a relatively simple-to-implement system parameter as a first step for further development, if that should ever be done.
Very true. My suggestion was for HTC since they too read all these forums. :)
Single color icons would add a lot to scenarios too, not just AvA.
If the new H2H system gets rolling, then it would offer a middle ground option between blazing red and green and no icons for those arenas as well.
Alas, the wheels of progress turn slowly... :salute
Actually, with regards to icons, they don't turn at all. I've never seen icon code change appreciably in either Warbirds or AH in 14 years. There is no incentive to do so. The money is in the Main Arena and they will always (rightfully) be blazing neon.
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Years ago I made a wishlist item about icons that automaticaly turn off under 800 yards.
I like this idea very much!
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The money is in the Main Arena and they will always (rightfully) be blazing neon.
Agreed.
Nevertheless, in these days of economic woe, small changes could attract those with more sophisticated tastes and perhaps bolster the player base.
Another simple suggestion.
Use one of the following four identifiers for "plane type" at 6K when the icon first displays:
inline
radial
twin
multi
This general level of identification more closely corresponds to the identification process, though again, not perfect by any means.
There's already code in place to change the "plane type" information from an initial display of, say, SPIT, to SPIT 8, so this would probably be a simple implementation and not hit game performance hard.
Best.
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Just learn the planes silhouette it comes naturally after you do it for a couple of weeks..
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Wow, I thought I weighed in on this :huh
Count me as a "Don't like icons". Have been in there a couple of times and I miss the challenge of finding and loosing those tiny little planes. It is perfect for TracIR. The neon sign above your prey(usually me) is,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,not the AvA to me. It has been a blast to not be seen and not see the enemy. It felt like your earned the kill & on the flip side of the coin, deserved to be shot down. It promoted more comms between sometimes complete strangers.
No Icons also seemed to keep the odds even. Even in a 2 vs 1, it felt more like teamwork when you were the the two & I always enjoyed the irony of slipping away to re-engage the 2.
So in closing I don't like the icons on :bolt:
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if everyone that has posted in this thread, flew in the AVA on a daily or every other day bases, this thread would have never been needed.
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It has been a blast to not be seen and not see the enemy.
Although the opinion is that this happened a lot in real life, this is a game and most actually have a blast fighting the enemy instead of not seeing the enemy. ;)
It felt like your earned the kill & on the flip side of the coin, deserved to be shot down.
IMO many guys don't "earn" their kill when all they do is fly at treetop level to hide, then zoom up and rake their "foe" in the belly. They still seem to do this with icons on, probably more so now, to hide their icon rather than just have their dot blend into the ground clutter.
Like I've said before, I've been on both sides of the icon/no icon debate and am currently on the "short icon" side. It would be great if the icon could fade in and out based on distance and icon range setting.
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if everyone that has posted in this thread, flew in the AVA on a daily or every other day bases, this thread would have never been needed.
Good point, Jaeger.