Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: Midway on July 20, 2011, 02:25:41 PM
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Sequence of six screenshots:
(http://i1102.photobucket.com/albums/g451/AH_Midway/NoHO1.png)
(http://i1102.photobucket.com/albums/g451/AH_Midway/NoHO2.png)
(http://i1102.photobucket.com/albums/g451/AH_Midway/NoHO3.png)
Pulled trigger here:
(http://i1102.photobucket.com/albums/g451/AH_Midway/NoHO4.png)
External view:
(http://i1102.photobucket.com/albums/g451/AH_Midway/NoHO5.png)
Rounds landed:
(http://i1102.photobucket.com/albums/g451/AH_Midway/NoHO6.png)
I think no HO since he had no gun solution on me, esp when I pulled the trigger.
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Not a HO. His guns were never pointed at you and by the looks of it you two were maneuvering.
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Not a HO
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Almost, but he's the one who turned right into your guns.
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There's a certain group that thinks a HO is ONLY when both planes have guns shots on each other, and it takes 2 to HO. I think they are mistaken and very myopic.
I think he tried to turn into you so hard he put himself in front of your guns. I think if you want to get technical, the very moment you shot him it was a HO, but you didn't mauver for it and it was HIS fault for turning right into your gunsight like that.
So technically yes, but the only reason he would cry out "You HOer!" is because he's mad at being shot down.
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There's a certain group that thinks a HO is ONLY when both planes have guns shots on each other, and it takes 2 to HO. I think they are mistaken and very myopic.
That would include me. If the other guy can't pull the trigger when I do, I consider it not a head on shot, but a high angle deflection shot. Had he been guns on me, I would not have pulled the trigger.
:old: Salvaging my good name one fact at a time.
:)
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Not a HO, but due to Lag it is entirely possible to the other pilot that it was a headon...but he appears to turn into your guns.
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With close in manuvering it's not a HO. Now when u close from 1000 out straight in it's a HO.
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Not a HO. His guns were never pointed at you and by the looks of it you two were maneuvering.
Ditto. :aok
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A Hot to Hot aspect shot, in the same class with a HO. Mind you, that is a good shot you took there, if a little HO-Hinty.
If your actual life depended on it, and not a cartoon, no one would turn it down. But in a 1vs1 cartoon knife fight, you effectivly kicked him the nuts.
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Seeing who was involved in this, I think you two already know the answer and that there is a hidden message to your post. :noid
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There's a certain group that thinks a HO is ONLY when both planes have guns shots on each other, and it takes 2 to HO. I think they are mistaken and very myopic.
I think he tried to turn into you so hard he put himself in front of your guns. I think if you want to get technical, the very moment you shot him it was a HO, but you didn't mauver for it and it was HIS fault for turning right into your gunsight like that.
So technically yes, but the only reason he would cry out "You HOer!" is because he's mad at being shot down.
He ended up below me and to my right and at no point was he able to shoot and hit me. No collision either.
Is that really technically a HO to you? :headscratch:
If it is, why?
(http://i1102.photobucket.com/albums/g451/AH_Midway/NoHO7.png)
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Seeing who was involved in this, I think you two already know the answer and that there is a hidden message to your post. :noid
I <3 DMGOD. :)
He's awesome. :aok :salute
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Almost a Ho. No HO.
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Ditto. :aok
Agreed, that was not a ho, the other player was about 20 degrees away from having a gun solution.
I <3 DMGOD. :)
He's awesome. :aok :salute
Don't worry, J0ch1m and DMGOD love you ;)
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ok so the pics don't show the entirety of what transpired. Midway was turning hard into me as well. My point to him was, we had a good fight going and there were several opportunities where I could have chose to make the same shot he did but, did not because well it was a 1v1 with no cons around (mine or his) and just seemed cheap. Oh well
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In a 1 v 1, with next closest con so far away, I would've skipped that shot and continued the fight. In the mass furballs, I would've taken it.
You like taking any shot you can get, so it doesn't really matter if it's a pure 0 degree HO or not. People expect it from you, and any front-quarter shot is automatically a HO when it's you who took it.
For better or worse, you built up your reputation to what it is now, and it's going to have a lot of people assuming you're doing a pure HO.
From my experiences fighting you, you generally come steaming straight down the pipe, pretty much playing 'Chicken', and either I take a HO or I angle away, but regardless, you still take the shot.
For that reason, I actually don't care to fight you. I know a HO is coming, and not some nifty or awesome moves to create overshoots or reversals.
To each his own though.
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ok so the pics don't show the entirety of what transpired. Midway was turning hard into me as well. My point to him was, we had a good fight going and there were several opportunities where I could have chose to make the same shot he did but, did not because well it was a 1v1 with no cons around (mine or his) and just seemed cheap. Oh well
I don't want to take cheap shots. :(
If it was cheap, then I will learn from it. Going to finish my 1st year in AH next month and still much to learn. :banana:
and mir, realize I'm finishing my first year and slowly learning the unwritten rules of this simulation. So when someone like me comes 'streaming down the pipe playing chicken', it may be because they have not yet fully developed their skills and could use helpful hints via a PM or two when you see something that should have been done better. :salute
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From my experiences fighting you, you generally come steaming straight down the pipe, pretty much playing 'Chicken', and either I take a HO or I angle away, but regardless, you still take the shot.
For that reason, I actually don't care to fight you. I know a HO is coming, and not some nifty or awesome moves to create overshoots or reversals.
I think he may just be turning a corner -> http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,316838.0.html
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Oh good lord not another one....IT DOESN'T MATTER if you head on shot him or not. You got the dude smokin and probably got the kill. I mean for petes sake you guys were in poonfire16's get over it.
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Oh good lord not another one....IT DOESN'T MATTER if you head on shot him or not. You got the dude smokin and probably got the kill. I mean for petes sake you guys were in poonfire16's get over it.
Spitfire MK VIII for me. :)
It does matter when your (my) goal is to be a good pilot (simulated, that is).
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Oh good lord not another one....IT DOESN'T MATTER if you head on shot him or not. You got the dude smokin and probably got the kill. I mean for petes sake you guys were in poonfire16's get over it.
who peed in ur Wheaties?
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I don't want to take cheap shots. :(
If it was cheap, then I will learn from it. Going to finish my 1st year in AH next month and still much to learn. :banana:
and mir, realize I'm finishing my first year and slowly learning the unwritten rules of this simulation. So when someone like me comes 'streaming down the pipe playing chicken', it may be because they have not yet fully developed their skills and could use helpful hints via a PM or two when you see something that should have been done better. :salute
I understand that, but your proud boasting of HOing, trying to HO, you're HOing ability, ad nauseum forced your name to become associated with the person taking a HO.
I did have a good fight with you at one point, where you had shots on my 38. After the fight, I offered advice of controlling your speed, as you were flying it firewalled, but that was so long ago.
As a matter of fact, that was when you were just chatty on channel 200. Soon after, it seemed that you were gone for a little while, and when you returned, your online persona changed to one of arrogance and being antagonistic towards others. I actually commented on squad Vox that I didn't think it was the same Midway. I don't get it.
Do you want to be better skilled? Hold off on those shots in the 1 v 1's and work to get a shot behind the 3/9 line.
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definitely a HO, no argument. and a valid shot :aok
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I think it depends on the situation. However I look at it it's technically a HO, but that in itself doesn't make it a frowned upon shot.
If you were in the MA with a full red dar bar and cons coming in, you're dodging red left and right, that's a perfectly acceptable shot in my book. In that situation your goal is to get as many cons down as quickly as possible, even if you have to shoot someone in the face. When people swarm you 5v1 they aren't showing you any respect, so don't give them any in return.
However, if you're in a 1v1 against a similar plane with very little threat of someone picking you, I would pass up on that shot and maneuver for another. From the photos I see, I would say you had the upper hand in the fight. The opponent was a second or two later than you (on getting to a heads on/neutral position) so you clearly had an extra step. What you should have done (in my opinion) is used that extra step to break out early and hopefully get another shot. Whenever I get someone in that situation I use it to my advantage, because whatever I do it will take them an extra second or two to get back into position and then counter it.
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However I look at it it's technically a HO
the USAAF and I agree with you :aok
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ok so the pics don't show the entirety of what transpired. Midway was turning hard into me as well. My point to him was, we had a good fight going and there were several opportunities where I could have chose to make the same shot he did but, did not because well it was a 1v1 with no cons around (mine or his) and just seemed cheap. Oh well
I was going to say that providing single frames instead of film is usually a way to hide something and only show ones point of view. That been said, from those pics, I'd say not a HO. But we are missing the context. We can't tell from these pics if that was a contest of forcing the HO so no-one fires or a contest of who is going to get the 2 degree deflection in first. Meaningless post without the film, in my opinion.
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Is there... like a website that lists which shots people are giving me that I shouldn't be taking? I'd really like to make sure I understand which shots I'm getting are ok to take and which aren't. This could be a great aid to those new to the game, as well as myself who just doesn't quite understand what about that setup is unreasonable.
I get that 3k out jousting is bad... This makes sense to me. After how many turns are you allowed to take a deflection shot? Or is it that you're never allowed to 'legitimately' fire ahead of the 3/9 line? Or is it the 4/8?
Wiley.
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Wiley my complaint is it was a good clean fight with no outside threats why not work for a good clean shot. Oh well again guess its just me and my silly expectations
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Spit8 is just as uber as spit16. Doesn't matter if you were VIII and he was XVI, same plane for most of the performance specs. Only difference being roll rate.
That said, even if it was a cheap HO, even if it was a weak HO, it would still have been a good HO if only because of what you were HOing. No mercy for spit drivers!
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Wiley my complaint is it was a good clean fight with no outside threats why not work for a good clean shot. Oh well again guess its just me and my silly expectations
If you were in the middle of a fight to the point you were both turning into each other, you were both working for it. A HO is only undesirable if it's the ONLY thing some uneducated and unwilling-to-learn pilot only HOs HOs HOs with no care for anything else. Clearly both of you are manuvering here so it doesn't matter what angle the final shot was fired. Nothing wrong with it. You get guns on the bad guy in a valid fight there's no reason to "hold the trigger" through some misplaced idea that it's dishonorable. Good shot, good kill. End of story to me. Might not have to LIKE that he got you, but you can't deride him for it.
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What Wiley said only with sarcasm. Im pretty new and inept but I don't think there is anything wrong with the screen shots shot. I thought an HO was supposed to be bad because you didn't need any kind of angle to blast the bogie you just needed bigger guns. If your turning tighter than the enme and can get your guns on them without them getting guns on you isn't that what your supposed to do? If your both pointed at each others guns then I can understand why thats not so satisfying but that isn't the case here. I was wondering how much lag distorts all of this, anybody know if one persons 15 degrees off the nose is anothers 0 degrees? fairly often?
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I was going to say that providing single frames instead of film is usually a way to hide something and only show ones point of view. That been said, from those pics, I'd say not a HO. But we are missing the context. We can't tell from these pics if that was a contest of forcing the HO so no-one fires or a contest of who is going to get the 2 degree deflection in first. Meaningless post without the film, in my opinion.
Don't know how to post a film. Will try and figure it out. (just recently learned how to post pics)
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I think the only potential for a "HO" is on the initial merge and is easily avoidable. After the merge,all bets are off. Fights on.
If I can get guns on you first, I will fire first. No question. Chivalry in the MA will get you killed quickly. :salute
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Spit8 is just as uber as spit16. Doesn't matter if you were VIII and he was XVI, same plane for most of the performance specs. Only difference being roll rate.
That said, even if it was a cheap HO, even if it was a weak HO, it would still have been a good HO if only because of what you were HOing. No mercy for spit drivers!
Spit8 verts better and turns slightly better than the Spit16
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Wiley my complaint is it was a good clean fight with no outside threats why not work for a good clean shot. Oh well again guess its just me and my silly expectations
...and my point is, you gave him a shot. Where is the line? I want to know which angles I can give an opponent during a good clean duel where he's not 'allowed' to fire on me.
pembquist- In my experience, in a situation where the two of you are pulling as hard as you can, lag makes the other guy show slightly behind in his turn from where he actually is. So in this case, the enemy's nose is further through the turn than he appears on your screen.
Actually, having said that last comment, I'd bet from DMGOD's FE he was probably pretty close to nose-on as well.
Edit: I typoed and had the logic backward in my comment to pembquist.
Wiley.
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Technicaly not a HO, tarderly= straight up tard HO!
Exactly why would you shoot at this point? were you out #d? did he try to HO you previously? If neither of these was the case then IMHO the shot is tardish and not needed :aok
JUGgler
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Imo it doesn't even matter if it was a HO or not, HO is just a word with a very short sighted definition. The fact of the matter is, is that you had first guns by a large margin and DMGOD saw this. Instead of maneuvering away from your guns and attempting to set up a reverse or rope, he continued to pull directly at your nose, forcing a ~front quarter shot. I will shoot here EVERY single time as long as I do not think he can get nose full around for the front end ram. Is it a HO? Technically yes but in my book it's called a Free HO, because I am not risking anything on the shot, because DMGod never can get guns on you. The entire premise of why a HO is dweeby is because you are taking a 50/50 gambit of living or dying. In this scenario you are taking 0% chance of dying, so why not shoot? That's my take on it anyways. The caveat to this however is knowing when to stick in line for the shot and when to break away from the shot, based on if he is going to get nose fully around to you. This simply comes with experience and is based on plane, speed, and distance.
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Technicaly not a HO
the only official document ive seen which mentions head-ons was a USAAF doc that ?murdr posted. that showed any shot from the front quarter defined as a HO. no mention of the context, just the angular relationship between the 2 aircraft.
so technically it was a HO :)
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Wiley my complaint is it was a good clean fight with no outside threats why not work for a good clean shot. Oh well again guess its just me and my silly expectations
define precisely a "good clean shot". how many degrees AO are we talking?
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I told you tangzu was midway......... :noid
NOT
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As to whether it's a HO or not is irrelevant (though it clearly wasn't). Your opponent put himself in your sights, you fired, he died... WTG!!!
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Personally, I wouldn't have cried "HO", but its a s close as you can get. I would NOT have fired there. But that is the difference between a person looking for a kill, and a person looking for a fight. I generally don't shoot at anything under 90 degrees off. I maneuver to get a full profile, or a 6 shot. In the "pictured fight" (uploading a film is the same as a picture, you just need a site that stores files instead of pictures "myfreefilehosting.com" works) I would have gone into a hi yoyo or tail slide to drop in on his 6 and work for my shot from there.
I couldn't care less if you kill me, but I'd be very happy if you gave me a fight.
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Personally, I wouldn't have cried "HO", but its a s close as you can get. I would NOT have fired there. But that is the difference between a person looking for a kill, and a person looking for a fight. I generally don't shoot at anything under 90 degrees off. I maneuver to get a full profile, or a 6 shot. In the "pictured fight" (uploading a film is the same as a picture, you just need a site that stores files instead of pictures "myfreefilehosting.com" works) I would have gone into a hi yoyo or tail slide to drop in on his 6 and work for my shot from there.
I couldn't care less if you kill me, but I'd be very happy if you gave me a fight.
Film: http://myfreefilehosting.com/f/5a87d49a69_6.09MB
First attempt at uploading film so not sure this will work. :pray
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Personally, I wouldn't have cried "HO", but its a s close as you can get. I would NOT have fired there. But that is the difference between a person looking for a kill, and a person looking for a fight. I generally don't shoot at anything under 90 degrees off. I maneuver to get a full profile, or a 6 shot. In the "pictured fight" (uploading a film is the same as a picture, you just need a site that stores files instead of pictures "myfreefilehosting.com" works) I would have gone into a hi yoyo or tail slide to drop in on his 6 and work for my shot from there.
I couldn't care less if you kill me, but I'd be very happy if you gave me a fight.
When you get guns on your opponent when he cannot get guns on you, the fight is over. Continuing the fight any further is a pointless measure, especially in the MA, where the speed at which you kill enemies is the single most important metric in staying alive.
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When you get guns on your opponent when he cannot get guns on you, the fight is over. Continuing the fight any further is a pointless measure, especially in the MA, where the speed at which you kill enemies is the single most important metric in staying alive.
we're suppose to stay ALIVE !!!! damn!
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Spitfire MK VIII for me. :)
It does matter when your (my) goal is to be a good pilot (simulated, that is).
Spitfire MK VIII for me. :)
It does matter when your (my) goal is to be a good pilot (simulated, that is).
Nope it doesn't matter at all; so wrong answer. Now stop making stupid posts about the alleged or wannabe HO and just play.
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who peed in ur Wheaties?
No one did at all except for all the ding dongs that whine about HO shots and whatever else. I hated hearing about it 15+ years ago and I still hate hearing about it.
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we're suppose to stay ALIVE !!!! damn!
Whether you like to admit it or not, you are trying to stay alive every sortie you fly. But it certainly is a lot less mentally taxing to ignore all other threats and focus on the one you are fighting so I don't blame you for wanting to strip it down to that. :aok
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When you get guns on your opponent when he cannot get guns on you, the fight is over.
This...
I guess some folks just have a compulsion to play with their food Grizz. :lol
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When you get guns on your opponent when he cannot get guns on you, the fight is over.
nicely put :aok
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That was a good looking interception. I always say AH is at its core a guns game. That means get your guns on the target and kill them while NOT letting them get their guns on you. Everything else is weak bs.
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I will shoot here EVERY single time
Oh, we know :lol
And juggler will be spraying from 1K out in the 110 while you are fighting someone else, but it all about the good fights :rofl
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*exception to the rule.... 262s
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Is there... like a website that lists which shots people are giving me that I shouldn't be taking?
I don;t think that is the issue at all. I don;t like them and I will make fun of any one that takes them. Do I take them? Sure, if you catch me taking off or if you dove in to join a 4 vs 1, if you hoed me several times and failed, but even that does not happen that often. It is not my first choice or even last choice. It is the I am pissed off choice or the I thought you were the guy that vulched me earlier choice :lol But, I am not about to fly for 10 minutes to find someone to face shoot with only to end up in the tower or limping back. It is just stupid.
Now, what you do is up to you (you in general not you personally). The problems start when a HOer gets called out. For some reason, even though they will explain to you how valid and historical the shot is, they get really messed up if you tell them they did it. Try in on 200 and see :lol
As I said, never in the history of human kind has anyone been so upset, as HOer being told he HOed :old:
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Whether you like to admit it or not, you are trying to stay alive every sortie you fly. But it certainly is a lot less mentally taxing to ignore all other threats and focus on the one you are fighting so I don't blame you for wanting to strip it down to that. :aok
Indeed. But certainly more taxing for the keyboard when you of course need to whine on Ch200 about getting ganged. :lol
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Oh, we know :lol
And juggler will be spraying from 1K out in the 110 while you are fighting someone else, but it all about the good fights :rofl
Muhahahaha. I have no moral reserve with HOing if the other guy can't HO me back. The only time that it is dweebish is if he avoided the ram in a close quarter fight and I shot the top of his plane after he dodged the ram. It happens sometimes, especially in the DA, but I usually apologize and call it a cheap shot.
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The only time that it is dweebish is if he avoided the ram in a close quarter fight and I shot the top of his plane after he dodged the ram.
This seems to be the most common thing people do in the MA. Not speaking about you, Grizz, just in general.
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Doesn't matter whether it was a HO or not. Seems to me part of the discussion is context of the fight.
JUGgler and I had a stretch a while back where we ran into each other numerous times on the deck, he in his Jug and me in my 38G. Neither of us would have taken that shot knowing who we were fighting as the intent was to out fly the other guy and shoot him in the back.
Same applies to fighting Grizz, despite what he's saying.
That being said, if I'm in a furball with multiple red guys swirling around, I'd take that shot. 1 v 1, I wouldn't.
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It does matter when your (my) goal is to be a good pilot (simulated, that is).
I guess it all comes down to one question. What makes a pilot good (simulated or otherwise)?
- Super high K/D?
- Hundreds of kills per tour?
- Low fighter rank?
- High kills per hour?
- High kills per sortie?
- High hit percentage?
- All/any of the above in a 25 ENY ride?
- Low Attack rank?
- Never HO's (despite the fact that there are 100 different definitions of a HO)
- Well respected as a good dog fighter in the AH community?
Midway and others, play the game like YOU want to play it, ignore what others think (unless you really care what others think), and have fun. At the end of the day, none of us are making a dime off this game, there is no celebrity outside AH and you won't be on the 11 o'clock news if you do HO someone...
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I don;t think that is the issue at all. I don;t like them and I will make fun of any one that takes them. Do I take them? Sure, if you catch me taking off or if you dove in to join a 4 vs 1, if you hoed me several times and failed, but even that does not happen that often. It is not my first choice or even last choice. It is the I am pissed off choice or the I thought you were the guy that vulched me earlier choice :lol But, I am not about to fly for 10 minutes to find someone to face shoot with only to end up in the tower or limping back. It is just stupid.
Now, what you do is up to you (you in general not you personally). The problems start when a HOer gets called out. For some reason, even though they will explain to you how valid and historical the shot is, they get really messed up if you tell them they did it. Try in on 200 and see :lol
As I said, never in the history of human kind has anyone been so upset, as HOer being told he HOed :old:
This specific example is a good one though, to illustrate what drives me absolutely bonkers when people start 'calling people out on a HO'.
What it looks like to me is, the two of them merged, pulled hard, the guy on the inside pulled the trigger and got the kill. Maybe it was the first merge, maybe the fifth. Doesn't really matter much.
What if DMGOD hadn't turned as effectively as he did on this pass, and instead gave Midway a canopy shot from Midway having performed the exact same maneuver? Wouldn't everybody be sitting here talking about how legitimate and swell the kill was? Not an exciting kill, but legitimate.
Why does it suddenly become lame because DMGOD was really, really close to getting his guns on him?
There's a saying about 'close' 'horseshoes' and 'hand grenades' that applies there.
As far as I'm concerned, the only legitimate gripe on HOing is if you're just coming in from 1k or 3k out with your pipper on the enemy and trying to shoot him as you go by. Whining about getting shot from the front in a turnfight and not taking the shot just because the other guy's nose is pointed vaguely in your direction is ridiculous and equally as lame as the 1k out joust on merge.
Wiley.
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I guess it all comes down to one question. What makes a pilot good (simulated or otherwise)?
- Super high K/D?
- Hundreds of kills per tour?
- Low fighter rank?
- High kills per hour?
- High kills per sortie?
- High hit percentage?
- All/any of the above in a 25 ENY ride?
- Low Attack rank?
- Never HO's (despite the fact that there are 100 different definitions of a HO)
- Well respected as a good dog fighter in the AH community?
Midway and others, play the game like YOU want to play it, ignore what others think (unless you really care what others think), and have fun. At the end of the day, none of us are making a dime off this game, there is no celebrity outside AH and you won't be on the 11 o'clock news if you do HO someone...
:old: All of the above.
but the eny 25 thingy is optional. :D
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Midway, the eny25 thingy wont work in the spit8... i said it last year. Disabling the easy-mode button helps you improve lightening fast.
Remember, you were the best flying newb ive ever seen (true you have much more flight time than me). I lost the hope in ya, but "learn" from Bruv, dont brownen your nose and once youll go far and will be able to reach all those above.
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Only in air combat is it honorable to shoot a man in the back.
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Who the crap cares?
It's every pilot's individual responsibility to stay out from in front of your opponent's guns as far as I'm concerned. :salute
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Not a HO, when 2 good pilots fighting, the marginal of opertunity for a shot can be very slim. A lot of fight would comes down to an almost HO maneuever, but reality one plane have gun on the other. Then again there are also instances where the other pilot break it off to avoid the HO and end up givin the shot to the other.
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...when 2 good pilots fighting...
:O :aok :banana: :D :cheers: :salute :bolt:
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I guess it all comes down to one question. What makes a pilot good (simulated or otherwise)?
Dummies Guide to AH fighter stats
- kills per hour? - pilot's aggressiveness
- kills per sortie? - pilot's effectiveness
- ride(s)? - *can* give additional insight when the above are factored in.
- Well respected as a good dog fighter in the AH community? - again, ymmv
:aok
[/list]
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Got into a good fight with Grizz tonight and we ended up in one of those situations described here. I did not have guns on. He did. He didn't take the shot. I commented in reference to this thread that he hadn't taken the shot. His comment was 'it looked too much like a HO shot", also mentioning it might have looked more so on my end.
Sadly that fight got interrupted although he was gaining the advantage, but the point is the same. If you are in a good fight, why ruin it, by taking that shot?
In the end, it's up to you. No one really dies. But it's something to think about. What is your approach when you see another plane. If the kill is the most important thing, then take that shot. If the fight is the most important thing, then don't take that shot.
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- kills per hour? - pilot's aggressiveness
- kills per sortie? - pilot's effectiveness
these 2 also depend to a large extent on when you play (more red guys during primetime) and what you fly (eg. you spend less of your flight time rearming a jug vs a yak, or refuelling a jug vs a LA5).
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That being said, if I'm in a furball with multiple red guys swirling around, I'd take that shot. 1 v 1, I wouldn't.
Kind of a myopic viewpoint in respect to the MA. Let me paint a picture:
Say you get a shot opportunity, it's not a HO, but it's really close and you certainly would not take it in the DA. You know as well as I do shot opportunities usually are spread out, if you pass this one up, it might be another twenty seconds for you to get the next. Say you have 2 red cons 4k away bearing in. If you take the shot, kill the bad guy, you now have time to retrieve yourself into a good fighting position for the next cons who are eta 10 seconds in. If you pass the shot up, you will soon be in a 3v1. Your next shot opportunity on bogey #1 might be spoiled by simply having to get defensive with the other two. At this point in a low 38G, the fight is lost. And for what?
Would you "open up" what you consider a legit shot?
I always try to kill bad guys at any chance I get, as quickly as I can, because that's what it takes to be able to have a chance at surviving the endless streamline of bad guys coming for ya. The planes are free so they'll just keep coming :)
There are plenty of times where I know that if I miss this shot I'm dead (from the other planes). I cannot imagine handcuffing myself by worrying about which shots are okay and which are cheap in the eyes of Headonigus, the God of Aces High HO.
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Kind of a myopic viewpoint in respect to the MA. Let me paint a picture:
Say you get a shot opportunity, it's not a HO, but it's really close and you certainly would not take it in the DA. You know as well as I do shot opportunities usually are spread out, if you pass this one up, it might be another twenty seconds for you to get the next. Say you have 2 red cons 4k away bearing in. If you take the shot, kill the bad guy, you now have time to retrieve yourself into a good fighting position for the next cons who are eta 10 seconds in. If you pass the shot up, you will soon be in a 3v1. Your next shot opportunity on bogey #1 might be spoiled by simply having to get defensive with the other two. At this point in a low 38G, the fight is lost. And for what?
<snip>
Grizz,
The scenario you just described isn't really an isolated 1 v 1 though, if cons are 4k out and closing in on the fight. That just happens to be a break from multiples fighters engaging each other. However, the original post showed the only other con at 9.1k away, so that's the true 1 v 1 fight that can happen in the MA.
You're right about the point you're making for that scenario, but the two scenarios should be viewed differently different.
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Only in air combat is it honorable to shoot a man in the back.
:rofl :rofl
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Got into a good fight with Grizz tonight and we ended up in one of those situations described here. I did not have guns on. He did. He didn't take the shot. I commented in reference to this thread that he hadn't taken the shot. His comment was 'it looked too much like a HO shot", also mentioning it might have looked more so on my end.
Sadly that fight got interrupted although he was gaining the advantage, but the point is the same. If you are in a good fight, why ruin it, by taking that shot?
In the end, it's up to you. No one really dies. But it's something to think about. What is your approach when you see another plane. If the kill is the most important thing, then take that shot. If the fight is the most important thing, then don't take that shot.
I don't like fighting Grizz, he alwayse kills me. :(
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Kind of a myopic viewpoint in respect to the MA. Let me paint a picture:
Say you get a shot opportunity, it's not a HO, but it's really close and you certainly would not take it in the DA. You know as well as I do shot opportunities usually are spread out, if you pass this one up, it might be another twenty seconds for you to get the next. Say you have 2 red cons 4k away bearing in. If you take the shot, kill the bad guy, you now have time to retrieve yourself into a good fighting position for the next cons who are eta 10 seconds in. If you pass the shot up, you will soon be in a 3v1. Your next shot opportunity on bogey #1 might be spoiled by simply having to get defensive with the other two. At this point in a low 38G, the fight is lost. And for what?
Would you "open up" what you consider a legit shot?
I always try to kill bad guys at any chance I get, as quickly as I can, because that's what it takes to be able to have a chance at surviving the endless streamline of bad guys coming for ya. The planes are free so they'll just keep coming :)
There are plenty of times where I know that if I miss this shot I'm dead (from the other planes). I cannot imagine handcuffing myself by worrying about which shots are okay and which are cheap in the eyes of Headonigus, the God of Aces High HO.
Amen. This is exactly how I've approached this issue for years. From word to word.
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Grizz,
The scenario you just described isn't really an isolated 1 v 1 though, if cons are 4k out and closing in on the fight. That just happens to be a break from multiples fighters engaging each other. However, the original post showed the only other con at 9.1k away, so that's the true 1 v 1 fight that can happen in the MA.
You're right about the point you're making for that scenario, but the two scenarios should be viewed differently different.
Guppy never specified isolated 1v1 hehe. A lot of the time you might think that you are having a 1v1 but there might be cons just out of icon range coming towards you. That's still only an eta 30 seconds away. As Del says (but doesn't preach), "If you think you are having a 1v1 in the MA, your SA has failed you". This is generally true. Most 1v1s I engage in in the MA come with a reasonable degree of uncertainty of if and when they will be interrupted by approaching enemies. The only way to deal with this uncertainty is to kill the enemy at hand as quickly as possible. Any delay in that and you are risking wasting more E, more fuel, and most importantly, potentially crucial time that could mean whether you are prepared for the next fight or not.
I do agree, however, in the rare instances that I am fighting a true isolated 1v1 in a sector with like 2 bad guys and I know with a high level of certainty it will not be interrupted, I will fight for the fight, even sacrificing all energy related advantages to fight the one guy who keeps upping to fight me. This is rare in the MA.
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Guppy never specified isolated 1v1 hehe. A lot of the time you might think that you are having a 1v1 but there might be cons just out of icon range coming towards you. That's still only an eta 30 seconds away. As Del says (but doesn't preach), "If you think you are having a 1v1 in the MA, your SA has failed you". This is generally true. Most 1v1s I engage in in the MA come with a reasonable degree of uncertainty of if and when they will be interrupted by approaching enemies. The only way to deal with this uncertainty is to kill the enemy at hand as quickly as possible. Any delay in that and you are risking wasting more E, more fuel, and most importantly, potentially crucial time that could mean whether you are prepared for the next fight or not.
I do agree, however, in the rare instances that I am fighting a true isolated 1v1 in a sector with like 2 bad guys and I know with a high level of certainty it will not be interrupted, I will fight for the fight, even sacrificing all energy related advantages to fight the one guy who keeps upping to fight me. This is rare in the MA.
I got ya. I'm still putting things into the context of the original post. :)
And yeah, I recall the day when I was a few months into AH and kept upping a Spit to fight your 109, which you continually killed, even asking me something akin to wanting to stop since I was losing each time within 2 turns. :D
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I would not take that shot in a 1 on 1 "controlled airspace" duel.
I would take that shot in the main arena.
I would take that shot in an FSO and be thrilled to get it.
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As Grizz describe that's how I fly in MA. It's faster kill and continue to fight, then die and fly 5-10 min back to the fight.
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Got into a good fight with Grizz tonight and we ended up in one of those situations described here. I did not have guns on. He did. He didn't take the shot. I commented in reference to this thread that he hadn't taken the shot. His comment was 'it looked too much like a HO shot", also mentioning it might have looked more so on my end.
Whoops I missed this post. The reason I did not take the shot was because I felt that you could get nose around on me for the HO and it was foolish to stick in there and line up the shot with that potential on the table. Had I felt you were lagging the turn a little bit more and I saw more of the top of your plane at the time I made my decision, I likely would have continued on my flight path and taken the shot. So in all honesty, my decision was based largely on angles and risk/reward, and less on honor. Although it was an honor to fight your 38G last night. :angel:
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Only in air combat is it honorable to shoot a man in the back.
lol...then were was your honour last night?..You came blasting into a fight while i was 2v1 with a couple P40's, firing face on in your C2 on more than one occasion..not that i care..i just think that this is a funny statement from you..<S> :banana:
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Whoops I missed this post. The reason I did not take the shot was because I felt that you could get nose around on me for the HO and it was foolish to stick in there and line up the shot with that potential on the table. Had I felt you were lagging the turn a little bit more and I saw more of the top of your plane at the time I made my decision, I likely would have continued on my flight path and taken the shot. So in all honesty, my decision was based largely on angles and risk/reward, and less on honor. Although it was an honor to fight your 38G last night. :angel:
I'll give you this Grizz. You are honest and it is appreciated. I'll take the low angle shots when presented in the MA's. You may only have that one chance, especially against a great fighter pilot such as Corky.
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:headscratch: Well, based on everything I'm reading here, and knowing my original question was a close call, if I had to do it again, I'd take the shot.
At the time I didn't know if anyone might be just outside icon range or upping from the enemy base, and I wouldn't want to end up even slower and lower than I already was. I had a good shot, took it, and glad I did, although i understand some might consider it cheap. It was close, but I'd rather gather up alt and speed, which takes time, for the next fight than to keep this one going any longer since we already dropped our speed and alt so much.
:old: The key point being it will take some time to rebuild E after a slow turnfight, so the quicker one can get started the better.
Thanks for taking a look at it. Much appreciate the feedback. :aok
:airplane: :joystick:
:salute DMGOD for a fun fight which did last several turns. :ahand
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ROFLMAO...
HO??? not even close!!!
in the air:
:ahand :ahand :ahand
and then on 200:
:ahand
and again on the forums:
:ahand
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ROFLMAO...
HO??? not even close!!!
in the air:
:ahand :ahand :ahand
and then on 200:
:ahand
and again on the forums:
:ahand
Thank you, I find this hilarious myself without all the "By gawd Watson, I do believe that was a quarter deflection shot." Looks to me like one if not both were setting up for the head on. As for someone's 200 antics STFU and get a new plane it gets old. The real question to me is why Midway, was not trying to dodge that Tangzu guy 1-10 yrds off his 6 the entire time? :D WTG Midway
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MA: Shoot, nowhere near the HO
DA, challenged to duel: No HO, will shoot without a doubt
DA, friendly duel: No HO, but hold your trigger, better changes will come
DA, dueling ladder etc: No HO, but just wait
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Only in air combat is it honorable to shoot a man in the back.
I remember an interview with air combat veteran OBee O'brian where he described dogfighting as akin to being in a bar fight, and the best way to win a bar fight was to get around behind the guy and stab him in the back. He survived his air combat experiences to grow into old age so he must have had something going on there.
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Thank you, I find this hilarious myself without all the "By gawd Watson, I do believe that was a quarter deflection shot." Looks to me like one if not both were setting up for the head on. As for someone's 200 antics STFU and get a new plane it gets old. The real question to me is why Midway, was not trying to dodge that Tangzu guy 1-10 yrds off his 6 the entire time? :D WTG Midway
That is an annoying avator. Have you considerred switching to Spikes' avatar? :)
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Guppy never specified isolated 1v1 hehe. A lot of the time you might think that you are having a 1v1 but there might be cons just out of icon range coming towards you. That's still only an eta 30 seconds away. As Del says (but doesn't preach), "If you think you are having a 1v1 in the MA, your SA has failed you". This is generally true. Most 1v1s I engage in in the MA come with a reasonable degree of uncertainty of if and when they will be interrupted by approaching enemies. The only way to deal with this uncertainty is to kill the enemy at hand as quickly as possible. Any delay in that and you are risking wasting more E, more fuel, and most importantly, potentially crucial time that could mean whether you are prepared for the next fight or not.
I do agree, however, in the rare instances that I am fighting a true isolated 1v1 in a sector with like 2 bad guys and I know with a high level of certainty it will not be interrupted, I will fight for the fight, even sacrificing all energy related advantages to fight the one guy who keeps upping to fight me. This is rare in the MA.
+1
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That is an annoying avator. Have you considerred switching to Spikes' avatar? :)
The 200 ch comment was for the other person involved in the fight. I have nothing against spitfire besides a love for killing them so you go givem hell. As for the boobie avatars, I've found some but photobucket doesn't like boobies. Have fun. :cheers:
Edit: would be nice if you also backed off 200 a bit. I know, I know, it's fun. But consider your ways, it'll go far to repair your good name. :salute
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:headscratch: Well, based on everything I'm reading here, and knowing my original question was a close call, if I had to do it again, I'd take the shot.
At the time I didn't know if anyone might be just outside icon range or upping from the enemy base, and I wouldn't want to end up even slower and lower than I already was. I had a good shot, took it, and glad I did, although i understand some might consider it cheap. It was close, but I'd rather gather up alt and speed, which takes time, for the next fight than to keep this one going any longer since we already dropped our speed and alt so much.
:old: The key point being it will take some time to rebuild E after a slow turnfight, so the quicker one can get started the better.
Thanks for taking a look at it. Much appreciate the feedback. :aok
:airplane: :joystick:
:salute DMGOD for a fun fight which did last several turns. :ahand
A good pilot wouldn't have gotten himself in the position where he might have to decide on a shot like that one. Just saying.
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A good pilot wouldn't have gotten himself in the position where he might have to decide on a shot like that one. Just saying.
ehhhh... it's a fairly common angle (and shot.) and you don't always know who you're up against or what may be inbound...
it's somewhat contextual too, if it was at speed, ie the second or third merge, then ehhhhh and since it was in the horizontal and not vertical, at stall speeds taking the shot... eh. if it were in the vertical it'd be a discussion about a rope and the stall/front qte shot. <or at least the apparent stall/FQ shot - right grizz? :noid :banana: > in the vert it becomes more acceptable in a sense. There's a fine art to roping. They still get miffed tho', but not as vocal as the horizontal crowd.
In the MA, anything goes. DM was just unhappy he didn't get the fight he was looking for, Midway is just trying (and too hard at that) to find the acceptable "line." I think he has, yet it will continue to evolve into his own line, with experience.
Could be one helluva troll for all I care, lol. Maybe he's actually Levi? :noid