Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: lyric1 on July 20, 2011, 07:49:00 PM
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With the new kid on the block soon to get here. Are we are so top heavy with perked rides in regards to tanks that it may be time to review a few of these & remove them from the perk points roster? Flame on. :bolt:
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Tanks are a harder thing than airplanes. The machine guns on a Hurricane Mk I are quite capable of putting holes into an Me262 whereas the 2pdr on a Cruiser Mk IV is wholly incapable of hurting the Tiger II, or probably the Tiger I, Panther V G, T-34/85 and T-34/76 as well.
It also seems that if the M4A3(76) is unperked you end up with ~80% of tanks being the M4A3(76). Unperking the T-34/85 might be doable without ~80% of tanks ending up being T-34/85s.
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i think m4 76 and t85 should have a perk of 5 they own pnzer and m8s and both of them can kill panthers and tigers. and the rate for fire for the m476 is insane for its perk price. or at least lower perks for the panther and tiger
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One perk doesn't count as a perk.
wrongway
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It also seems that if the M4A3(76) is unperked you end up with ~80% of tanks being the M4A3(76).
I think we have more than 80% now using the M4A3 (76) with it's 1 perk price tag. Totally based off of no statics of course just my general impression. :)
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One perk doesn't count as a perk.
wrongway
But that one perk did significantly cut back the M4(76) usage, effectively cutting it by half.
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I think we have more than 80% now using the M4A3 (76) with it's 1 perk price tag. Totally based off of no statics of course just my general impression. :)
(http://img198.imageshack.us/img198/802/cuurentusagetanks.jpg)
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i think m4 76 and t85 should have a perk of 5 they own pnzer and m8s and both of them can kill panthers and tigers. and the rate for fire for the m476 is insane for its perk price. or at least lower perks for the panther and tiger
So? Panzer IV H has no inherent right to be the top free tank. Should we demand that C.205s be perked because they "own" Spitfire Mk Is?
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screw the perks work on the armor. panthers and tigers are being killed with one hit from Shermans from 2-3k and that should be
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This looks like a problem for the M-18 to solve.
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screw the perks work on the armor. panthers and tigers are being killed with one hit from Shermans from 2-3k and that should be
Which Sherman? And you don't happen to have a film?
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So? Panzer IV H has no inherent right to be the top free tank. Should we demand that C.205s be perked because they "own" Spitfire Mk Is?
do they lol
pnzer is ah first tank there for it sets the standard for all other tanks m4 76 is very new in ah world and i think it and the t85 should be perked at 3-5 and both are beasts compared to the pnzer.
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do they lol
Absolutely :old:
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Absolutely :old:
fair enough but does their evy jive with the ownage statement
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The other thing I like about the idea of unperking the T-34/85 and M4A3(76) is that you could then bump the ENY on the Panzer IV H to something in the 20ish range, which would leave the side with numbers an inferior but usable tank once the perk tanks, T-34/85 and M4A3(76) were disabled by ENY limits. Right now the perk tanks and the Panzer IV H get disable, leaving the side with numbers to try to fight Panther V Gs, Tiger Is and now Tiger IIs with only T-34/76s and M4A3(75)s, a near hopeless task no matter the numbers advantage.
Because the Panzer IV H has a decent gun it could at least offer a fighting chance against the super heavies.
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(http://img198.imageshack.us/img198/802/cuurentusagetanks.jpg)
I was wrong again :( Great chart as always though :aok
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I think the firefly should cost closer to what the m4-76 does...tell me why the m4-76 is harder to kill than the firefly? Reloads faster, and the gun isn't that much worse.
Bring back the firefly's importance
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I think the firefly should cost closer to what the m4-76 does...tell me why the m4-76 is harder to kill than the firefly? Reloads faster, and the gun isn't that much worse.
Bring back the firefly's importance
I do have a pet peeve when it comes to the M476 armour & gun especially against Tigers.
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Reloads faster, and the gun isn't that much worse.
The M4(76) reloads faster, but the Firefly's gun has about 33% better penetration. Right now the VC has the most powerful gun in Aces High.
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It also seems that if the M4A3(76) is unperked you end up with ~80% of tanks being the M4A3(76). Unperking the T-34/85 might be doable without ~80% of tanks ending up being T-34/85s.
Got a fix for it: unperk both, but give APCR round (HVAP) to the Panzer. Each tank gives you a different mix of benefits and drawbacks.
M4(76) Pros: Decent gun, good armor Cons: lack of APCR
T-34/85 Pros: APCR, top tier speed, good armor Cons: weak turret, sub par gun with standard AP
Panzer Pros: APCR, decent gun Cons: weak armor, limited number of APCR rounds
M4 would probably be a bit more popular still, but this would definitly reduce its popularity by a fair degree.
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A quick and sketchy chart that shows both Usage (k+d) and k/d at the same time and may help to judge the importance or impact each tank has in the LW MA. Data is for current tour.
(http://img839.imageshack.us/img839/3195/usagevskd.jpg)
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That graph seems to show the Firefly is over-perked and the M4A3(76)W a bit under-perked. Maybe 5 for the (76)W and 10 for the Firefly might be fairer. Perhaps 60 for the King Tiger?
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A quick and sketchy chart that shows both Usage (k+d) and k/d at the same time and may help to judge the importance or impact each tank has in the LW MA. Data is for current tour.
(http://img839.imageshack.us/img839/3195/usagevskd.jpg)
Say, that's not a pie chart! :old:
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Say, that's not a pie chart! :old:
Oh, I forgot to bring the pie with that chart. Here is yours:
(http://i405.photobucket.com/albums/pp140/DESTINY898/Food%20Fight/pie_in_face_1.jpg)
:neener:
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Oh, I forgot to bring the pie with that chart. Here is yours:
(http://i405.photobucket.com/albums/pp140/DESTINY898/Food%20Fight/pie_in_face_1.jpg)
:neener:
Is that custard pie? :aok
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That graph seems to show the Firefly is over-perked and the M4A3(76)W a bit under-perked. Maybe 5 for the (76)W and 10 for the Firefly might be fairer. Perhaps 60 for the King Tiger?
Sounds good.
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The problem is there is a threshold of "ability", and the T23/76, M4/75, Panzer IV, M8, and M3/75mm are on one side and everything else is on the other with quite a gap between.
Tanks like the M4/76mm and the T34/85mm have a distinct advantage over those listed above, and are not far behind at all the "Big 3" (now the Big 4). So, where does HTC draw the line? It is easy to earn GV perk points, just like it is to earn bomber perk points.
I would hope HTC seriously evaluates their ENY values on the GV. I think the the ENY values need to change above all. Especially the M4/76, there is a reason the Sherman Firefly is almost non-existent any more. My opinion, of course.
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Here is what I know from experience. At V135 at the first bridge nearest V135 itself I was shooting an M-4 way up on my left along with others from the spawn itself. He was about 3800 meters away. I hit him five time in a Tiger. He shoot me once and kills my turret but I had supplies and go on to hit him two more times until he gets my turret again with one shot. I had to drive to the base and land as I had no more supplies.
Someone got him as I was driving and I only got an assist. This is not uncommon with the M-76 Sherman. While that is not a bad gun on the M-4/76 it should have no effect on the front armor of a Tiger at a range of 3800 meter. I don't even use the Panther because anything shooting at it one shot kills it most the time. If you are spending the perks on a Panther spend a few more and use at Tiger.
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The problem is there is a threshold of "ability", and the T23/76, M4/75, Panzer IV, M8, and M3/75mm are on one side and everything else is on the other with quite a gap between.
Tanks like the M4/76mm and the T34/85mm have a distinct advantage over those listed above, and are not far behind at all the "Big 3" (now the Big 4). So, where does HTC draw the line? It is easy to earn GV perk points, just like it is to earn bomber perk points.
To illustrate the difficulty of assigning "fair" perk tags:
The K/D's in the chart above are overall arena k/d's and thus include alot of kills and deaths pf and by other causes than tank combat (most notably planes).
Here are the real k/d's of pure tank combat, tour 137:
(http://img829.imageshack.us/img829/3550/tankstats137.jpg)
If you examine the table closely, you can find that there is no simple, linear ranking in terms tank A > tank B > tanks C. For example, the Tiger has almost 5 times better K/D vs the M4(75) than the Panther - but the Panther seriously pwnd the Tiger in that tour. Main reason for that: the 75mm M4 has a slight chance to penetrate the Panther's armor but is almost useless vs the Tiger. But panther & Tiger can punch through each other's armor at quite long ranges, so other factors start to come into play. This just shows how complex that matter is.
The second table just shows how frequent any specific type of encounter was for example 1.08% of all tank vs tanks combats had been Tiger vs T-34/85 (Edit: There is missing one entry: Panther vs Panther = 0.17%)
:old:
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Other than against the M4A3(75) and T-34/76, the T-34/85's K/D is not particularly stunning. It does well against Panzer IV Hs, but is hardly unkillable by them.
Based on Lusche's charts I really can't see any reason why it is even perked, but if it is going to have a token, 1 point perk, the M4A3(76) should be more in the 5-10 perk point range. The only fight the T-34/85 does better on than the M4A3(76) is vs the Tiger I, almost certainly due to HVAP ammunition.
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The problem is there is a threshold of "ability", and the T23/76, M4/75, Panzer IV, M8, and M3/75mm are on one side and everything else is on the other with quite a gap between.
Tanks like the M4/76mm and the T34/85mm have a distinct advantage over those listed above, and are not far behind at all the "Big 3" (now the Big 4). So, where does HTC draw the line? It is easy to earn GV perk points, just like it is to earn bomber perk points.
I would hope HTC seriously evaluates their ENY values on the GV. I think the the ENY values need to change above all. Especially the M4/76, there is a reason the Sherman Firefly is almost non-existent any more. My opinion, of course.
Giving APCR rounds to the panzer would help bridge the gap. Weak armor (as thin as 50mm on the front of the turret) would keep it unperked, but it would put it more on a level field with the perk tanks.
Firefly is perked a 10 would be fine, now that its had its been weakened. But 5 for the M4(76) would be a bit much. It still has the third lowest KTD. a Perk price of 3 might work though.
And as a final note, R105, your gun should have had no effect at 3800yds either. The tiger's penetration has dropped to around 120 at 2000yds IIRC, and with slope, the M4 has ~100mm of armor or so.
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Drop the 85 to 0 or 1. Up the M4-76. Drop the Tiger. Its not worth much anymore.
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This looks like a problem for the M-18 to solve.
you know its bad when... :noid