Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: shermanjr on July 30, 2011, 12:31:04 PM
-
was watchin some dofights episodes (death of the luftwaffe) and i was talkin bout the 190 down low on the deack bein able to outturn the p51d. i nkow that 190s can out roll 51s but can they out turn em i always had the notion that 190 cant turn with a lanc i mostly a midwar player but to late war 190s turn better. only thing i can think fo that would help the 190 is that he having way less fuel and / or the p51 lost critical parts
and also saw a piece about a p47 getting jumped by 2 109s getting hit in the rite wing and the wing catchin fire and still flying it for soem time after word and out flying both of em bringing into aspect the toughness of p47 and i do belive this model had wing tanks but dont think wing fires r modeled in here and most of the time firs means death in 6 or so sec
-
:rofl
-
was watchin some dofights episodes (death of the luftwaffe) and i was talkin bout the 190 down low on the deack bein able to outturn the p51d. i nkow that 190s can out roll 51s but can they out turn em i always had the notion that 190 cant turn with a lanc i mostly a midwar player but to late war 190s turn better. only thing i can think fo that would help the 190 is that he having way less fuel and / or the p51 lost critical parts
and also saw a piece about a p47 getting jumped by 2 109s getting hit in the rite wing and the wing catchin fire and still flying it for soem time after word and out flying both of em bringing into aspect the toughness of p47 and i do belive this model had wing tanks but dont think wing fires r modeled in here and most of the time firs means death in 6 or so sec
You answered your own question right there! They get more wrong than they get right.
-
190s can't quite match a P51s "turn rate" in the game I do not believe, but they can easily outmaneuver a P51 using a combination of roll rate, turning capability, and engine power.
-
190s can't quite match a P51s "turn rate" in the game I do not believe, but they can easily outmaneuver a P51 using a combination of roll rate, turning capability, and engine power.
Gonzoville lists the 190d at full flaps as a few feet better than the p51D in game, in a straight up full flaps turning fight I can beat them in the turn, the time that takes depends on the quality of the opponent of course. A big advantage the p51 has is the ability to pop 1 notch out before the 190d I have found myself getting beaten in that situation were they keep the speed of the turn just above my flap deployment speed.
-
was watchin some dofights episodes (death of the luftwaffe) and i was talkin bout the 190 down low on the deack bein able to outturn the p51d. i nkow that 190s can out roll 51s but can they out turn em i always had the notion that 190 cant turn with a lanc i mostly a midwar player but to late war 190s turn better. only thing i can think fo that would help the 190 is that he having way less fuel and / or the p51 lost critical parts
That was the impossable odds episode wasent it? where the single p51 dove on over 40 190's, spraying&praying em. then 1 of the 190's engages the p51. The fight gets down to the deck, the pony lights the 190 up a little, then the 190 slams into a barn?
and also saw a piece about a p47 getting jumped by 2 109s getting hit in the rite wing and the wing catchin fire and still flying it for soem time after word and out flying both of em bringing into aspect the toughness of p47 and i do belive this model had wing tanks but dont think wing fires r modeled in here and most of the time firs means death in 6 or so sec
Your thinking of the "legend of y29" episode. When the p47 had its wing lit on fire by 2 109's, then he used the slagheaps in an effort to dodge the 109's fire. until that p51 dove down to clear his six.
-
no it was showin bout operation bodenplatte
-
no it was showin bout operation bodenplatte
...Y29 came under attack during that Luftwaffe operation. which is why the episode is labeled "legend of y29"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1lW2nU4vRWM
-
well i guess because or broader area of the attack
-
Depending on the speed, the 190A-5 can out turn almost any plane in the game. Its just a matter of getting the other plane either too fast, or too slow.
Our 190A5 is, if I understand correctly, based off of a captured 190G-3. I'm not an expert on the 190's in general, and I know next to nothing about the later models, but, again if I understand it correctly, the result is that we have a 190A5 that is underpowered (they were limited to 1.45 ata at sea level, where ours is limited to 1.36 I think).
Regardless, the 190 is not a turn fighter. 190's have top of the line climb rate, acceleration, and roll. This suits them to BnZ fighting, since they can claw back energy, even if they lose some pulling out or during manuvering, and the roll is great for possitioning the nose during an attack.
-
Depending on the speed, the 190A-5 can out turn almost any plane in the game. Its just a matter of getting the other plane either too fast, or too slow.
Our 190A5 is, if I understand correctly, based off of a captured 190G-3. I'm not an expert on the 190's in general, and I know next to nothing about the later models, but, again if I understand it correctly, the result is that we have a 190A5 that is underpowered (they were limited to 1.45 ata at sea level, where ours is limited to 1.36 I think).
Regardless, the 190 is not a turn fighter. 190's have top of the line climb rate, acceleration, and roll. This suits them to BnZ fighting, since they can claw back energy, even if they lose some pulling out or during manuvering, and the roll is great for possitioning the nose during an attack.
If you mean "outturn" as in on the deck, stallfight wise you would be totally incorrect. zero, Wildcat, spitfire, brewster, val, kate, i16, 109, ki84, niki, f6f, f4u, hurricane, are going to own it in those regards. It is more maneuverable than some of these though.
-
Zero, spitfire, brewster, 109, ki-84, and hurricane all suffer at high speeds. Above 350, even 300 for the zero, I doubt that any of these can clearly keep with a 190, or any other high speed turner for that matter.
I give you the rest of them, with the exception of the I16 and N1K2, at very high speed (375+)
-
was watchin some dofights episodes (death of the luftwaffe) and i was talkin bout the 190 down low on the deack bein able to outturn the p51d. i nkow that 190s can out roll 51s but can they out turn em i always had the notion that 190 cant turn with a lanc i mostly a midwar player but to late war 190s turn better. only thing i can think fo that would help the 190 is that he having way less fuel and / or the p51 lost critical parts
and also saw a piece about a p47 getting jumped by 2 109s getting hit in the rite wing and the wing catchin fire and still flying it for soem time after word and out flying both of em bringing into aspect the toughness of p47 and i do belive this model had wing tanks but dont think wing fires r modeled in here and most of the time firs means death in 6 or so sec
Dogfights much? :rofl
-
The Spitfire, Brewster and Ki-84 will turn with, or out turn, the Fw190 at any speed, Tank-Ace. The Ki-84 is most limited as it will lose control surfaces above about 475mph. The Spitfire has to be careful not to turn too tight and break its wings. The Brewster will bleed speed out fast. None of them will be out turned by the Fw190 as they can all pull blackouts and beyond that it does not matter.
I am particularly puzzled at your inclusion of the Spitfire on that list as it had notoriously light elevators all the way up to compression.
-
No, they won't. Ki-84 has some of the lowest tolerances for speed in the game. Spitfire, as you stated, has to be carefull at high speeds. Both can have some real trouble keeping with a 190 in a spiral-dive.
Brewster, I'll give you. I haven't flown it in a while, and I don't remember its handling characteristics very well.
-
Tank-Ace,
Turn off Combat Trim on the Ki-84 and ~90% of its problems go away. It is truly stunning the performance difference.
Spitfire can keep with the Fw190 in a spiral dive so long as the Fw190 does not use its roll rate to switch directions, it isn't that] fragile. Spitfires roll like crap at high speeds.
-
IDK, all I know is that I've lost wings under heavy manuvering at speeds as low as 430mph. Was a spit 14, IDK if the wings are weaker or anything, I'm not a spitdweeb, but I can say for certian a 190 could have pulled the same manuver and survived.
And I'll have to try that with the Ki-84.
-
I'm curious about the comments regarding Spit losing wings in high speed turn. A couple of things come to mind.
First, until the clipped wing spit came into play, the elliptical wing Spit Did have issues with wing torsion at high speeds. IIRC NACA Report 868(?) detailed studies comparing both the P-47C-1 and the Spit V with respect to aileron diminished effectiveness at 400 mph with extensions to control reversals in 550 mph range.
The Jug had ~ 65% aileron effectiveness at 400 and the Spit was at 31% -indicating a significant amount of torsion in the outer panels of the wing as the Q loads increased. Another curiosity of the Spit was that twist of the wing was not done on the leading edge, but on the trailing edge which I think was unique. But there is no reason for a Spit to shed wings unless the initial turn exceeded ~ 10-12G and somehow avoided a stall well before it reached that level of loading... So how were the modelling assumptions applied to create the game effect?
-
I don't think we'll ever know all the sources they've used to model our planes and tanks. For whatever reason, whether it be to hide the use of speculation or to keep things from competitiors I don't know, but (I don't think) they've ever disclosed their sources.
-
First, until the clipped wing spit came into play, the elliptical wing Spit Did have issues with wing torsion at high speeds.
That would imply either the shape of the wing was not symmetric to the applied aerodynamic force or the force was not acting uniformly about the wing I believe..
-
I'm curious about the comments regarding Spit losing wings in high speed turn. A couple of things come to mind.
First, until the clipped wing spit came into play, the elliptical wing Spit Did have issues with wing torsion at high speeds. IIRC NACA Report 868(?) detailed studies comparing both the P-47C-1 and the Spit V with respect to aileron diminished effectiveness at 400 mph with extensions to control reversals in 550 mph range.
The Jug had ~ 65% aileron effectiveness at 400 and the Spit was at 31% -indicating a significant amount of torsion in the outer panels of the wing as the Q loads increased.
Blast it, you structures & loads guys always have to bring up aerolasticity don't you. I like my bodies rigid. :D
-
I'm very happy aileron reversal isn't modeled in the game! :uhoh
-
If you look at your aileron deflection at high speeds you'll see that the travel is reduced.
Hitech mentioned looking at the possibility of modeling wing flex and aileron reversal.
-
"First, until the clipped wing spit came into play, the elliptical wing Spit Did have issues with wing torsion at high speeds."
All wings flex, more or less, but because of wing area the Spit's wings flex more that usual and it was most noticeable from aileron reversal at high speed dives and visually evident from outer machineguns firing a bit here and there during maneuvers. Not many other, if none at all, planes had machineguns fitted that much outboard so the wing flex in those was not that evident during firing.
The wing clipping did not affect to wing flexing, AFAIK, but the changes in wing structure in later models did.
-C+
-
All wings flex, more or less,
Yes. :) If a fly sits on a rail road track piece suspended from both ends. Does it bend because of the weight of the fly? Yes it does. The question is, just how much. :D