Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: Tyrannis on July 31, 2011, 03:09:15 AM
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Hey guys, i was in a custom GV arena, i upped a sherman firefly but the highest top speed i could get out of it on flat terrain was 20mph.
From what ive found from a little research, the firefly could reach at least 25 mph.(40km/h)
http://www.enotes.com/topic/Sherman_Firefly
http://www.onwar.com/tanks/uk/data/firefly.htm
I tested it offline on flat terrain and i still could only manage 20mph. even when holding the W button down.
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HTC probably modeled a slower speed to simulate the British stopping for tea. Otherwise, I too question it.
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no, Dale fixed it to represent Monty's screw-up at falaise. Since monty didn't move fast enough, our firefly won't move fast enough :lol.
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:rofl Such tasteful humour :D
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no, Dale fixed it to represent Monty's screw-up at falaise. Since monty didn't move fast enough, our firefly won't move fast enough :lol.
I think on that basis the regular Sherman should take at least 2 years to get started :rofl.
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Hey guys, i was in a custom GV arena, i upped a sherman firefly but the highest top speed i could get out of it on flat terrain was 20mph.
From what ive found from a little research, the firefly could reach at least 25 mph.(40km/h)
http://www.enotes.com/topic/Sherman_Firefly
http://www.onwar.com/tanks/uk/data/firefly.htm
I tested it offline on flat terrain and i still could only manage 20mph. even when holding the W button down.
Have you done any research? neither those are credible sources, official document from the British Army specifications of the FireFly.
Our ingame Firefly is correct. By the way, you can't really research online because some webpages simply cut and paste from others without actually doing research themselves, I had to pour through 60 documents and 3 books to gather the average speed should of been 20-22mph. I haven't even started on German documents because most of it is in german and translation is a pain.
(http://i849.photobucket.com/albums/ab56/Misconduc/Firefly.jpg)
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for whatever reason, a lot of the british tanks were slower than their contemporaries. But I don't know why the firefly would be. The 17lber isn't THAT much heavier than an M3 75mm. I don't see how it could drop the speed by 5-7mph.
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well i wasnt just the gun the turret was also redsigned for the gun also didnt they double the with of the track couldnt that be just wondering
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well i wasnt just the gun the turret was also redsigned for the gun also didnt they double the with of the track couldnt that be just wondering
the width of the track was normal for the Firefly. youre thinking of special sherman designs such as the Easy8 etc where there was more armor or wider tracks etc.
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turret is unchanged isn't it? I was under the impression they modified the recoil system of the gun, to make use of the Sherman's wide turret.
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turret is unchanged isn't it? I was under the impression they modified the recoil system of the gun, to make use of the Sherman's wide turret.
look at a sherman 76mm turret and the firefly turret. theyre different
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No, M4(76) doesn't use the origional sherman turret. They use an enlarged one.
Firefly turret and M4(75) turret should be the same. Infact, they're the same tank near enough. Just superficial changes, a different engine, and a new gun.
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Maybe the British put an RPM limiter on their engines to help with the longevity of the engines and transmissions???
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well there were some changes
. a second hatch was put in for the loader
. the hull gunner was elimated for more ammo storage which gave it more weight
. the mantle was 13 mm thicker then the 75mm
. and the added a large armourd bustle bin to fit the radios in the back of the turret
so maybe thats why she's a little slower
plus if you look at this photo on this link of the 75mm and the firefly you will see the difference.
http://www.juniorgeneral.org/JClick.php?UID=2504
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I wouldn't think that adding some weight to a tank would lower its top speed too much but would affect its acceleration. I think a big change in speed would come from a change in transmission or an engine that operates at lower RPM.
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As far as I know, the brits just slapped their 17lbers into the (modified apparently) turret of an M4A4. I don't think they changed the transmission or engine. But limiting its RPM makes about as much sense as any other guess, since the M4's turret traverse was independent of its engine.
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As far as I know, the brits just slapped their 17lbers into the (modified apparently) turret of an M4A4. I don't think they changed the transmission or engine. But limiting its RPM makes about as much sense as any other guess, since the M4's turret traverse was independent of its engine.
engine in the firefly was different from the shermans. there was also a weight difference, firefly being heavier. the information is easy to find, no need to speculate incorrectly.
Firefly Chrysler A57 multibank engine - 470hp
M4A3 75/76/105mm Ford GAA-III V-WC - 500hp
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engine in the firefly was different from the shermans. there was also a weight difference, firefly being heavier. the information is easy to find, no need to speculate incorrectly.
Firefly Chrysler A57 multibank engine - 470hp
M4A3 75/76/105mm Ford GAA-III V-WC - 500hp
HP is about 1 of 10 criteria when comparing motors. ;) Far too much importance is placed on the "HP" value of an engine. Gear ratios, torque, etc etc, all play a bigger role than most people know. :)
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HP is about 1 of 10 criteria when comparing motors. ;) Far too much importance is placed on the "HP" value of an engine. Gear ratios, torque, etc etc, all play a bigger role than most people know. :)
true, except for the fact that the transmission and gear ratios remained the same from the m4a1 to the m4a6...spicer manual synchromesh 5 speed
1st gear - 7.56:1
2nd gear - 3.11:1
3rd gear - 1.78:1
4th gear - 1.11:1
5th gear - 0.73:1
Reverse - 5.65:1
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Whats the motor used on the M4A4, of which the Firefly is a modification? Chrysler A57.
I rest my case.
The M4 Sherman we have is a different model of M4 than the firefly is converted from.
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The only modification to the Firefly of any note was the changing of the gun to the 17 Pounder. The engine remained unaltered. The turret was not changed either. There was no time for that as the variant was being modified with some urgency for the Normandy invasion in June 1944.
All the sources I can find puts its best speed at 37-40 kph or 22-24 mph. I cant find a source anywhere giving it less than that, so far. Sources will disagree on 1 mph easily.
I cant find any varient of an "MBT" Sherman (one used as a tank not an engineer vehicle or some other variation), US (Army or Marines) or British or Canadian that had a top speed of less than 22 mph. The fastest variants seems to be the M4A3 versions with the Ford V8s.
20 mph seems a bit on the low end. At least from the sources I have seen. I dont have what HTC has on the vehicle.
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The only modification to the Firefly of any note was the changing of the gun to the 17 Pounder. The engine remained unaltered. The turret was not changed either. There was no time for that as the variant was being modified with some urgency for the Normandy invasion in June 1944.
All the sources I can find puts its best speed at 37-40 kph or 22-24 mph. I cant find a source anywhere giving it less than that, so far. Sources will disagree on 1 mph easily.
I cant find any varient of an "MBT" Sherman (one used as a tank not an engineer vehicle or some other variation), US (Army or Marines) or British or Canadian that had a top speed of less than 22 mph. The fastest variants seems to be the M4A3 versions with the Ford V8s.
20 mph seems a bit on the low end. At least from the sources I have seen. I dont have what HTC has on the vehicle.
22.25mph is what roughly I am showing for the speed of the Firefly, no clue why its slower then an M4A4, being it had the same engine a Chrysler A57 Multibank engine and weigh's 34.8 tons vs the Firefly being 34.75 tons, However the M4A4 is rated at 25mph Road and 20mph Cross country, while I assume the Firefly is 22.25mph Road and some what slower maybe 19.75mph cross country.
My best guess at this is the Firefly should be 24-25mph Road as all the evidence I've collected really doesn't add up entirely, I would think its highly possible the documents are wrong, also another possibility is for example crews tended to add sandbags to the tanks for added protection - thus increasing weight, however I would believe these were field tested without any modifications for example the early versions of the Firefly didn't have wet storage for the ammunition as Fireflies risked Fire/explosion for the storage of rounds before the americans introduced this.
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no clue why its slower then an M4A4, being it had the same engine
I think the explanation for that is quite simple. Sources vary. It really had the same speed roughly. You get differing quotes for the M4A4 and the Firefly both, so there is no surprise when you make comparisons they sometimes are different.
As far as "extra stuff" added on to the tank? all AFVs in WW2 had that. US, Brit, Canadian, Polish Shermans all had all sorts of things thrown on them. That is not modelled by HTC I would not think and I cant see it being a reason as there was no standard exta stuff to quantify. Each crew had their own decisions to sandbags, tracks, tents, bogies, netting, added camo, whatever. Its like asking what was a standard gypsy wagon fitted with. Good luck finding that. ;)
...I was taking a 2nd look at the M4A3(75) and M4A3(76) speeds as well. Most sources put them at between 29-32 mph. 26 mph also seems a bit on the low end which is the top speed for both in AH on lvl ground. The Shermans were not a slow tank. The 500 hp gas engine versions could clip along at a fairly brisk pace.
Is there a possibility with the upgrade they are missing the top gear?
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The only modification to the Firefly of any note was the changing of the gun to the 17 Pounder. The engine remained unaltered. The turret was not changed either. There was no time for that as the variant was being modified with some urgency for the Normandy invasion in June 1944.
All the sources I can find puts its best speed at 37-40 kph or 22-24 mph. I cant find a source anywhere giving it less than that, so far. Sources will disagree on 1 mph easily.
I cant find any varient of an "MBT" Sherman (one used as a tank not an engineer vehicle or some other variation), US (Army or Marines) or British or Canadian that had a top speed of less than 22 mph. The fastest variants seems to be the M4A3 versions with the Ford V8s.
20 mph seems a bit on the low end. At least from the sources I have seen. I dont have what HTC has on the vehicle.
I think his point is that M4A4 that the Firefly was based on has a different engine then the M4A3 or M4A3(76)
Scanned this from Mark Hayward's book on the Firefly. Looks like sustained speed on the road was 20mph. Note the cross country speed. A lot slower. With the additional ammo carried and larger size of the shells, I imagine the weight increased a bit too along with the weight of the larger cannon.
Looks like HTC has it about right
(http://i152.photobucket.com/albums/s199/guppy35/Firefly.jpg)
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I think the explanation for that is quite simple. Sources vary. It really had the same speed roughly. You get differing quotes for the M4A4 and the Firefly both, so there is no surprise when you make comparisons they sometimes are different.
As far as "extra stuff" added on to the tank? all AFVs in WW2 had that. US, Brit, Canadian, Polish Shermans all had all sorts of things thrown on them. That is not modelled by HTC I would not think and I cant see it being a reason as there was no standard exta stuff to quantify. Each crew had their own decisions to sandbags, tracks, tents, bogies, netting, added camo, whatever. Its like asking what was a standard gypsy wagon fitted with. Good luck finding that. ;)
...I was taking a 2nd look at the M4A3(75) and M4A3(76) speeds as well. Most sources put them at between 29-32 mph. 26 mph also seems a bit on the low end which is the top speed for both in AH on lvl ground. The Shermans were not a slow tank. The 500 hp gas engine versions could clip along at a fairly brisk pace.
Is there a possibility with the upgrade they are missing the top gear?
There's some interesting information, I have never seem the "Standard VC 25.2 mph" or 23 mph for both. Also throws a curve ball in saying sustained speed was 20 mph? Who made these comments because the article does not show".
I have continued my research and I continue to see 22mph for the Firefly, however I cannot explain once again why this tank is slower then the standard Sherman M4A3 and M4a4.
I would hope someone from HTC can say something here because really I am in the doghouse to explain this as my documents really gives no more information other then 22.25mph road.]
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Look at the weight difference between a regular M4A4 (Standard VC) and the M4A4 Firefly. 3 ton difference. Seems like it would make a difference in speed.
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Tested offline with flat terrain. Most if not all are max speeds within 1 mph from any sources I can see.
Tiger I- 25 mph
Tiger II- 24 mph
Panzer IV H- 25 mph
Panther G- 28 mph
T-34/85- 32 mph
T-34/76- 34 mph - that is an absolute top end speed on a road without a doubt and thats its AH peformance.
If there is a class singled out to have their speeds at "sustained road" speeds they all seem to be Shermans. That an M4A3(75) is only 1 mph faster than a Tiger I is hard to justify Firefly debate aside. The Sherman family seems curiously slow compared to the AFVs above imho or conversely the tanks on the first list are too fast if we are using "sustained speeds" and not "max speeds".
Tested same base:
Firefly- 20 mph
M4A3(75)- 26 mph
M4A3(76)- 26 mph (2 tons heavier than the 75 version).
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Interesting. I've never been a numbers person, but the line has always been that the Sherman used it's speed and mobility to try and deal with Tigers and Panthers. Doesn't make sense if it's slower then a Tiger.
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Interesting. I've never been a numbers person, but the line has always been that the Sherman used it's speed and mobility to try and deal with Tigers and Panthers. Doesn't make sense if it's slower then a Tiger.
youre thinking of M4A3s not the firefly and also AH uses all the GV's max speeds not their true off road speeds. IRL the KT wouldnt go faster than 5mph on dirt and the TigerI would have problems also. The M4s are lighter therefore faster also offroad IRL
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http://afvdb.50megs.com/index.html
Interesting site that has some good info on the Sherman. The listed "sustained speeds" for the M4A3s are 26 mph and the Firefly as 20 mph. Same as AH. The trouble is of course as stated above the other GVs in the game use max speeds so its apples and oranges. It looks to me that all 3 Shermans in the game require a speed adjustment upwards. Either that or the other GVs need a downward adjustment from their max speeds. Its an honest mistake but I think that Tyrannis stumbled on to something here.
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http://afvdb.50megs.com/index.html
Interesting site that has some good info on the Sherman. The listed "sustained speeds" for the M4A3s are 26 mph and the Firefly as 20 mph. Same as AH. The trouble is of course as stated above the other GVs in the game use max speeds so its apples and oranges. It looks to me that all 3 Shermans in the game require a speed adjustment upwards. Either that or the other GVs need a downward adjustment from their max speeds. Its an honest mistake but I think that Tyrannis stumbled on to something here.
Problem is there isn't any viable sources to this claim, I showed proof of the Firefly's top speed was 22.25mph, this is from my source, HTC probably has their source which is some others I read at 20mph. If you can show proof the Firefly did excess of 22mph, show the documents and it will be examined :)
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Squire, all GV's use maximum potential speed. M4's had a larger speed advantage over their german counterparts...... off road.
If you used cross-country speed, you would see that better.
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Problem is there isn't any viable sources to this claim, I showed proof of the Firefly's top speed was 22.25mph, this is from my source, HTC probably has their source which is some others I read at 20mph. If you can show proof the Firefly did excess of 22mph, show the documents and it will be examined :)
Top speed and sustained speed are two different things. The source I posted says the same thing in terms of top speed 22.25. Clearly if you are traveling a distance, you can't maintain that top speed and settle into the sustained speed of 20mph
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This is what I posted: All the sources I can find puts its best speed at 37-40 kph or 22-24 mph
Now if it turns out they use 22mph I say im ok with that as I have seen that as a source.
The problem is you can't get faster than 20 mph. Which I think is just too slow. At some point a line has to be drawn I think and I would say with the Firefly 22 mph is the lowest value you can find in any source.
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This is what I posted: All the sources I can find puts its best speed at 37-40 kph or 22-24 mph
Now if it turns out they use 22mph I say im ok with that as I have seen that as a source.
The problem is you can't get faster than 20 mph. Which I think is just too slow. At some point a line has to be drawn I think and I would say with the Firefly 22 mph is the lowest value you can find in any source.
I wonder how the difference in top speed and sustained speed was figured. At some point after certain time did it slow to 20 despite pedal to the metal?
I'm not a GV guy so I don't know the answer to this, but how often do guys in the game go barreling around at full speed? Is that 2 mph that much of a difference in game?
Again I'm not a GV guy so it won't impact on me either way. I'm just curious.
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Not really. Makes for slightly shorter transit times, and not much else.
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Is that 2 mph that much of a difference in game?
10% is pretty big. There are quite a few cases where if a tank were 10% faster it would be the difference in a base capture or successful defense.
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10% is pretty big. There are quite a few cases where if a tank were 10% faster it would be the difference in a base capture or successful defense.
x2. I traveled from one base all the way to a friendly field getting vulched just in time with a Wirble to shoot the troops dropping out of a goon. I only got one, but it bought us the 4-5 mins for FH to pop. I saved the field :joystick:
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I wonder how the difference in top speed and sustained speed was figured. At some point after certain time did it slow to 20 despite pedal to the metal?
I'm not a GV guy so I don't know the answer to this, but how often do guys in the game go barreling around at full speed? Is that 2 mph that much of a difference in game?
Again I'm not a GV guy so it won't impact on me either way. I'm just curious.
Its like having 2 engines in your 38, when you lose one you slow down which makes running away impossible so you rather have 2 engines. In my case I enjoy the Panther because of its 29 mph speed - only the T34/85 is faster at 32 mph, it makes a huge difference when you are running from hill to hill or tree sections to tree sections to find cover in a GV fight.
True 4 mph doesn't seem much, but I can say speed has saved me a few times.
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22.25mph is what roughly I am showing for the speed of the Firefly, no clue why its slower then an M4A4, being it had the same engine a Chrysler A57 Multibank engine and weigh's 34.8 tons vs the Firefly being 34.75 tons, However the M4A4 is rated at 25mph Road and 20mph Cross country, while I assume the Firefly is 22.25mph Road and some what slower maybe 19.75mph cross country.
My best guess at this is the Firefly should be 24-25mph Road as all the evidence I've collected really doesn't add up entirely, I would think its highly possible the documents are wrong, also another possibility is for example crews tended to add sandbags to the tanks for added protection - thus increasing weight, however I would believe these were field tested without any modifications for example the early versions of the Firefly didn't have wet storage for the ammunition as Fireflies risked Fire/explosion for the storage of rounds before the americans introduced this.
it wasnt just sand bags they added to increase there protection if youlook at the photos on this website http://www.canadiansoldiers.com/vehicles/tanks/mainbattletanks.htm
youll see that they used lots of spare track. as addon spaced armour which is alot heavier then sand bags i believe
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There were three main engins in the M4 the GAA ford V8,the Chrysler A57 multibank, and the Continental R975 radial, there was a 4th engine issued only in the pacific and only to the marines it was the D200A radial Diesel. Having driven the GAA and the R975 the GAA seemed to have the most power while the radial fouled the plugs bad when idling for a long time. All my Books and manuals state that M4s converted to the Firefly were powered by the multibank engine, plus the gun weighed in at 3 tons you had the armored box on back for the radios and you had a loaders hatch cut into the turret roof and a new gun mantlet. Being a tanker for years dont go by what books say about speed you can have 10 tanks and all ten run at slightly different speeds. Here are some good pics of a fire fly http://the.shadock.free.fr/sherman_minutia/firefly_tank/index.html