Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: ToeTag on August 12, 2011, 10:14:31 AM
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I have narrowed it down to two rifles based on reviews. However I know this bbs has more opinions and informed people than the forums I've been doing my research on. So far I have been seriously considering buying either a Savage 111 or the Marlin X7 in 30-06 or 308 caliber. So far I have not seen a bad word about either of these rifles. Anyone know of another rifle that falls into this price range with an equal or better reputation? Or if one of these rifles has an edge over the other?
Thanks in advance
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Depends on what your going to do with the rifle. Hunting or just target practice.
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=evr_tP9cJWY :neener:
Language warning.
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As I was writing this, I knew I should have mentioned Intent.......I just moved to Montana. I will be doing some hunting next year. Big game sheep, elk and deer. Longest shots from my eyes will be maybe 300 yds.
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I have a savage 30'06 and it's a wonderful rifle. Bolt is easily removed cleaned and replaced, cleaning is simple and straightforward, and I absolutely love the trigger pull. The one I bought came with a 1x - 10x variable zoom scope that works great, and is also easily adjusted. Plus I just love the 30'06 round. :)
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Yea I heard you can find ammo for a 30-06 under most rocks.
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BTW, Born and Raised in Northern Montana... I'd say 30'06 is good, if you have a bad shoulder, 270 is also a decent round that'll work on most game. Wouldn't trust it w/ a girzzly though.
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I've had a Savage before as well. Was a very nice shooting rifle. I sold it simply because there is very little you can legally use it for in the Peoples Republic of Illinois.
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I love my model 700 in 270 hunting deer and hog in Texas.
You may want a heavier round for moose and such.
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The 3 guys I have spoken to regularly hunt in MT. They all suggested the 06 or 308 calibers. Larger rounds damage to much meat they say.
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I have hunted there spend the money and get a weatherby 7mm magnum. I love both the 308 and the 30-06 but for elk and longer shots go with the weatherby
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The nice thing about the 06 is the ability to buy heavier grain ammo. I use 180gr in WV for everything, but I know 220gr are available which will give you the extra punch for larger game like elk and bear. I haven't used .308 so I am no means a .308 expert. But I have used a .30-06 for about 15 years now (Winchester model 70).
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i shoot a Husqavarna Nitro 30.06 real fine big game rifle. as far as the bigger rounds wrecking meat, that's hogwash. Shot placement determines the damage, just make a clean shot.
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My dad's got a Savage .308 and another in .22-250, they're model 110s though. They're excellent rifles, and I'd have absolutely no trouble recommending them. The accutrigger is a really, really nice feature IMO.
He's spent a ridiculous amount of time messing around with them and has the .308 shooting MOA at 500 yards. For what you've mentioned wanting to use it for, I think I'd go 30-06 just for the ability to use heavier bullet weights on elk. The .308 will do the job, but shot placement's a bit critical.
YMMV.
As to larger calibers wrecking more meat, obviously a clean shot is a clean shot. Doesn't matter if you're using a .243 or a .50 BMG. Put one through the ribs broadside, minimal meat spoilage, the critter falls over dead.
Now, my brother in law is using a .300 Win Mag using 180 grain bullets. He took a slightly (max 25 degree) front quartering shot on a mule deer last year. The bullet deflected off the upper leg bone just below the shoulder blade and went back... It exited the opposite corner ham, pretty much obliterating it. Now it's a single anecdote, we can play shoulda coulda woulda all day, but IMHO if it had been a lighter, slightly lower velocity .30 cal like a .308 the damage would've been mitigated, it probably wouldn't have done as much damage at the back and stopped before it exited the body cavity. IMO it magnified the error.
The heavier calibers do give you more versatility in bullet weights for shooting larger stuff though, that can't be argued.
Wiley.
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I highly suggest a Savage rifle. The .30-06 is the most versatile caliber out there. For the larger big game (elk, moose, bear), the 180grain stuff does nicely. For deer and antelope the 150gr stuff is the way to go. Heck, if you are going to reload a "reduced" charge is easily had for target practice.
Leave all the other crap behind. You cant go wrong with that combo for an entry level rifle and caliber.
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I have to ask, how much experience do you have with long-range rifle shooting?
I only ask because it is a rather difficult and technical undertaking.
If your experience level is low, you'll want a rifle with inexpensive rounds due to the fact that you'll want to put in a LOT of practice before you go out and try it on a live animal.
Remember, the animal is giving everything it has, the shooter should respect the hunt enough to be proficient at his task. Wounding an animal is a terrible feeling (I've done it), but to wound an animal through lack of preparation is unforgivable.
This isn't meant to be degrading towards you in any way, just wanted to give some food for thought.
:salute
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.270 and 30-06 is akin to Chevy v Ford, just so you know.
My family shoots .270, great flat trajectory with a smaller grain bullet. Great for deer, can handle elk but you need a well placed shot. 30-06 is heavier, great gun and more then enough for elk and moose. For bear either will do if you place the bullet well though a 7mm is better just in case you only get one good shot. Problem I hear with 7mm (not having shot one) is the kick tends to cause flinching and jerking on the trigger so accuracy is a mess.
As for the .308, can't say though if you go with the 30-06 you won't have any regrets, certainly considering the availability of rounds.
Scope, I have a Leopold. A little more expensive but worth it. With scope, what ever you go with find a good gunsmith for the mount. More then anything a sloppy mount will cause you confidence problems.
Good luck and post pictures of what you kill. I brag that my family owns the largest set of 2-point Mule Deer horns ever taken. 30" spread. If I knew how to post pictures I would post them. If someone knows how I could email it to them and they could post. You won't believe it until you see it. Taken in the Ponsigont, Southern Utah back when they grew real Mule Deer.
Boo
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Savage or a Howa.
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Its ok I can just go akimbo.
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308 is the round I prefer. More manageable recoil, a bit flatter traj out to 300 yrds or so and still uses the mean old tried and tested .30 cal.
30-06 works great too.
I wouldn't turn down either of those rifles.
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If your experience level is low, you'll want a rifle with inexpensive rounds due to the fact that you'll want to put in a LOT of practice before you go out and try it on a live animal.
:salute
YUP! :aok Thats why I wont shoot past 200 unless I am absolutly confident in my ability, even after a looong stalk. I have to much respect for the animal to get sloppy during a hunt. Not to mention I don't want to track and haul a bad shot in these hills! I'm not in SC any more. There's eyes in these hills and they are hungrier than I am!
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YUP! :aok Thats why I wont shoot past 200 unless I am absolutly confident in my ability, even after a looong stalk. I have to much respect for the animal to get sloppy during a hunt. Not to mention I don't want to track and haul a bad shot in these hills! I'm not in SC any more. There's eyes in these hills and they are hungrier than I am!
Great attitude. :aok
Whatever rifle you choose, we wish you a safe and successful hunt.
(I'd go with the '06 myself. Becinhu's Winchester Model 70 is an all around dream in my honest opinion.)
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Toe Tag........I live in Kalispell and Hunt in the Lincoln Area. GET THE .30 06 Ive killed Many ELK as far out as 437 yards. Use a 180 Grn Round I prefer the Nosler accu bond or Partition. Both very deadly. Get the premium round if your planning shooting over 200 yards. If not then get the $20.00 a box stuff.
Also look at the Burris Fullfield II for a scope. Great price and it has increments for up to 500 yards. They work. BTW I shoot a Remington Model 721 Made in 1957. and my daughter shoots its twin in a .270. Dont get the .270 NOT Great for elk.....
BTW. Welcome to MONTANA :)
(http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj212/skerlock/DSCN0133.jpg)
(http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj212/skerlock/DSCN0418.jpg)
(http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj212/skerlock/Dispelk1.jpg)
(http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj212/skerlock/280.jpg)
(http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj212/skerlock/DSCN0422.jpg)
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i shoot a Husqavarna Nitro 30.06 real fine big game rifle. as far as the bigger rounds wrecking meat, that's hogwash. Shot placement determines the damage, just make a clean shot.
Agreed......I think the 300's and up are overkill...
KAm
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Seriously look at the Howa, the Ranchland for a nice compact rifle comes in 308, and the 1500 comes in both 308 and 30-06.
We don't have the same sort of big game as much as you do in the US (for me its feral pigs, feral goats, fallow deer, and red deer). So I have ranchland in a 243 with a Nilkon scope on it. It's a beautiful hitter, took this fallow in the back of the head at 275 yards:
(http://www.cqrt.co.nz/ms/fallow.jpg)
(p.s. before anyone comments that's a long range fuel tank :D )
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Forget the fuel tank, I'm just wondering how you made that great shot with yellow duct tape all over your face.
:headscratch:
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Nice mount Kam...did you do that? Also did I mention that I am a complete Noob here in MT? Would like to know where to go. Also is there a chance that I won't get a licence here? The whole lottery thing kinda has me timid about being able to hunt and purchasing a rifle.
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Lottery? Be here for 6 months become a resident and get "A" tags. Yes I killed that 6 x 6 and my daughter and I got the 2 bulls...and deer.
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Savage. You have a lot of hunting experience telling you the same thing in this thread.
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Wouldn't trade my Ruger M77 in 30-06 for the world.
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(p.s. before anyone comments that's a long range fuel tank :D )
I've got one of those too! :rofl Been working on it though, so my range isn't what it used to be... :D
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Entry level rifle?
Strange choice of words
Your first rifle should be an AR 15 chambered in 223
You should be intimately proficient in its use, cleaning and repair
You should own at a minimum 2000 rounds of ammo (55 grain FMJ BT)
You can kill game with a knife or spear, and start fires with a 9 volt battery and steel wool
If you own one rifle...make it an AR...and your next investment should be a folding shovel
Keep your powder dry
Salute
Oneway
(http://www.cadframers.com/ah/2.4.jpg)
(http://www.cadframers.com/ah/2.4.png)
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I'd say get a marlin 30-30. :aok its a gun great for everthing!
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Entry level rifle?
Strange choice of words
Your first rifle should be an M-16A2 chambered in .223 ball. Open sights, of course.
You should be intimately proficient in its use, cleaning and repair. Until you are qualified 50/50 or "Expert".
Keep your powder dry
Salute
Oneway
I'd say get a marlin 30-30. :aok its a gun great for everthing!
Got one, love it, no good past 100 yards. (Marlin 336CS to be exact.) I hunt in brush, open sights. I mean USED to hunt in brush. Quit in '99. Birds only now. Maybe coyotes this winter...
EDIT: I did edit Oneway's post. oops.
EDIT2: Actually, I think it was 40/40. It's been 12(?) years.
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Entry level rifle?
Strange choice of words
Your first rifle should be an M-16A2 chambered in .223 ball. Open sights, of course.
You should be intimately proficient in its use, cleaning and repair. Until you are qualified 50/50 or "Expert".
Keep your powder dry
Salute
Oneway
That is a felony...but I concur with your sentiment
The GCA passed in 1968 makes that impossible other than in terms of transfer of existing systems and platforms pursuant to the NFA passed in 1934
But like I said...I concur...with the exception that FA is a waste of ammo...Burst (3) selective fire is far more desirable
Salute
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That is a felony...but I concur with your sentiment
The GCA passed in 1968 makes that impossible other than in terms of transfer of existing systems and platforms pursuant to the NFA passed in 1934
But like I said...I concur...with the exception that FA is a waste of ammo...Burst (3) selective fire is far more desirable
Salute
I was pointing our friend toward an enlistment. :lol
EDIT: A2 is 3 shot burst iirc.
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I was pointing our friend toward an enlistment. :lol
EDIT: A2 is 3 shot burst iirc.
Copy A2 = 3
I did not know that because I am just another civilian
They will not let me own such things
Having shot both Full and Burst and SA....in the M16...
Selective SA is still my preferred choice...I would rather put less bullets in a smaller pie hole than a more bullets in a bucket hole
Nothing demoralizes the opposition faster than measured, accurate, effective and concentrated fire...
Quantity of fire will never overcome Quality of fire in 1 v 1 small arms engagement...all else being equal
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308 is the round I prefer. More manageable recoil, a bit flatter traj out to 300 yrds or so and still uses the mean old tried and tested .30 cal.
30-06 works great too.
I wouldn't turn down either of those rifles.
You better check your charts again, the .308 Win has nothing on the .30-06 in terms of performance regardless of bullet weight. The are very close, but the .30-06 will edge out the .308 every time in trajectory/velocity, and it can handle the larger bullets easier.
Someone mentioned the "7mm", by the statements made it appears as if the cartridge in question is the 7mm Rem mag. It is truly a beast of a 7mm, but there are other popular rounds that rank even higher in recoil, namely the .300 Win Mag. I reload the 7mm-08 and the 7mm Rem Mag (.30-06 too).
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You better check your charts again, the .308 Win has nothing on the .30-06 in terms of performance regardless of bullet weight. The are very close, but the .30-06 will edge out the .308 every time.
.308 is a standard NATO round aka 7.62×51mm NATO...
The 308 will kill anything inside of 200 yards...and if you can't stalk that close...hmmm...do a few seasons killing with a bow an arrow and the 308 will seem to be a cannon
The 308 is lethal on head shots out to 600 with some basic training (windage, elevation, ballistics)
A deer rifle that is chambered in the 7.62x51 has the ancillary benefit when the you know what hits the fan...the ammunition will be more readily available
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Anybody talking headshots at 600 is full of beans.
Or expertly trained.
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Anybody talking headshots at 600 is full of beans.
Or expertly trained.
OUT TO
The ballistics are lethal OUT TO that range
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Longest I ever shot was 350, and those little plastic green men with the red stars on their helmets were awfully small.
Knocked 'em all down though.
EDIT: Ahhh roger that oneway. Please be a little more clear for dummies like me. :)
But still, "lethal on head shots out to 600 with some basic training"?
I smell beans.
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Customized Long Range AR15 plan form
And this is an AR spitting 223
I have a Remington 700/308 in an Accuracy International Stock system that I can promise you...with less than an hour of training, you could punch holes in soccer balls at 600 and not break a sweat...
The win 308 is not a great round...I would rather have a 7mm Rem Mag...but the 308...in the right hands with the right tools is potent...I would not want to be down range of my 308 under any circumstance
To illustrate the point...here is some meek 223 stuff...and again...you would not want to be on the receiving end of this accurate fire...under any circumstance
18" barrel 1:7 twist chucking 77 grain Sierra Match Kings, Varget hand loads..LCA Brass, Remington SR 7.5 primers
(http://www.cadframers.com/ah/mr.1.png)
INPUT: Down Range view through a 12x Leopold...range to target...500 yards (gps)...5 degree elevation...plate size 12x18...x-wind 10 kts
(http://www.cadframers.com/ah/mr.2.png)
OUTPUT:
(http://www.cadframers.com/ah/mr.3.png)
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That's a 34" tire! 90% of those rounds at 500 yds woulda missed my pin-head. :lol
Nice shooting though... :aok
I will leave you with this... no more bean smells because beans don't burn on the grill.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PjVtKsSZwE4
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Toe Tag you got alot of good info here but in the end You have to make the choice. Check with true gun store and better yet one with a rifle range, you can try different calibers and find the one that fits you best. When you find your gun take it to a good gunsmith have him set your scope and bore sight it, and have him polish the triger assembly it really helps. When you go to sight it in get 3 to 4 different brands of ammo every gun shoots ammo different get a good note book to recorde your dope. AHH crap I could go on and on, what ever you get take your time dont rush and ask lots of questions if your not happy it will never be a joy to go shoot.
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Don't know about the Marlin, but it is fairly easy to change barrels on a Savage if you want to shoot another round. I have a Savage 12fv that was bought with a 22-250 barrel for varmints. Right now it has a Shilen barrel chambered in .260 Remington AI on it. .260 is basically a .308 Win necked down to .264...better ballistics. I use that barrel for whitetail hunting and just burning powder at the range(is fun to shoot little groups...I reload too). Some guys have just one action/stock and several barrels and change them out depending on the need. Is fun to tinker with. Lots of info on the forum @ savageshooters.com. Whatever you get is important to shoot it a lot to become familiar with cheek weld, sight picture, trigger, etc. so you know where the round is going when the trigger breaks. And shoot from different positions......lot of guys can shoot lights out from a bench but can't hit jack from positions you sometimes have to use when hunting. Whatever you get, enjoy it.
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Mac-90=cheap.
7.62 ammo=cheap.
Cheap fun gun = :D
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Mac-90=cheap.
7.62 ammo=cheap.
Cheap fun gun = :D
Actually, the Mac-90 is not cheap. The BATFE has banned importation of firearms from China thanks to the Chinese trying to sneak in a boatload of FA rifles for civilian sale some time ago. So the price of them have gone up. A "cheap" variant of what you are speaking of is the WASR-10. ;) Oh, and while ammo is cheap for the time being, if the Obama administration has their way ammo sales from Europe will be banned soon and that mean SHY-HIGH prices for 7.62x39.
For learning "how to", that rifle is not a good tool, imo. A basic bolt action would be better.
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OUT TO
The ballistics are lethal OUT TO that range
Check your charts again. The ballistics you speak of can be had by many calibers, including the 5.56 NATO/.223 Rem. You are quite correct, the 7.62 NATO is a fine cartridge and in no way shape or form does it take a back seat to the .30-06, but it certainly does not out perform the latter.
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From what my gramps always told me, .22 rifle to start
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From what my gramps always told me, .22 rifle to start
I'm good with my Glock 19, I have (2) .22's, (2) Browning A500's in 20 ga and 12 ga and (1) 410 ga. I got the basics down as far as shooting, but this will be my first high power rifle. Just wanted to know if these two were good starters or if there was a nicer entry level rifle.
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I'm good with my Glock 19, I have (2) .22's, (2) Browning A500's in 20 ga and 12 ga and (1) 410 ga. I got the basics down as far as shooting, but this will be my first high power rifle. Just wanted to know if these two were good starters or if there was a nicer entry level rifle.
springfield 1903 perhaps or enfield 303?
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If you looking for a cheap, reliable, fairly accurate bolt action to start, I'd say grab $200 bucks and go to your local gun show/store and get a nice M91/30 and one of those spam cans and starting plinking.
I recently picked up a '39 Tula and she is a blast! Literally! :aok
But I also use my step dads Savage in 30-06 and she is good too. :D
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http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=245718879
check out this rifle
This rifle is made on the same line and is essentually the same as the S&W 1500 and the Weatherby Vanguard. My first rifle, a S&W model 1500 in 7mm mag. was a gift from my wife in 1984 and have used it for hunting deer, elk, and bear virtually every year since. I have since purchased a second exact model off of gunbroker to have for a backup. coincidentally, I just put a scope on it today, and sighted it in. It shoots like a tack driver, just like the original. 2 years ago I bought a Weatherby vanguard for my son as he wanted a rifle just like mine, because he has seen me kill lots of animals with mine. I also purchased it through gunbroker. so I essentually have three identical rifles, all 7mm mag and all even the same scopes.(original weaver K6-W)
As other people have posted already, shot placement is the key to kills, not the bullet size or gun model. I shoot a 7mm mag because sometimes I shoot long range and like a flatter trajectory. 30.06 is an excellent choice as well, as the numerous bullet weight choices make it suitable for many different situations.
68valu
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Entry level rifle?
Strange choice of words
Your first rifle should be an AR 15 chambered in 223
You should be intimately proficient in its use, cleaning and repair
You should own at a minimum 2000 rounds of ammo (55 grain FMJ BT)
You can kill game with a knife or spear, and start fires with a 9 volt battery and steel wool
If you own one rifle...make it an AR...and your next investment should be a folding shovel
Keep your powder dry
Salute
Oneway
(http://www.cadframers.com/ah/2.4.jpg)
(http://www.cadframers.com/ah/2.4.png)
just curious why a minimum of 2k rounds?
semp
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Flash mobs.
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Flash mobs.
:aok :rofl :rofl
I saw the howa in 30-06 and the package scope is much nicer and its only $429.00 vs the savage, same caliber at 399.00 with a cheap 35.00 scope.
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For sophisticated western armies there are sophisticated western rifles.
For everyone else, there's Kalashnikov!
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just curious why a minimum of 2k rounds?
semp
When the zombie apocalypse comes (not a matter of if - only when - see U.K. London last week)...bullets will be worth their weight in gold
In fact they are high on the short list of things to have in quantity - such as:
Water - water purification capability
Antibiotics
Beans
Rice
Fire
Guns - Ammo (lots of both)
Basic fishing tackle kit - minimum of a hand line and several hooks in various sizes
Blades (knives, machete, axe) - Means to sharpen (stones & steels)
Food seeds
Vice grips
WD-40
Duct tape
Bailing Wire
Basic tool kit - mechanical
Basic tool kit - DC electrical
Basic tool kit - wood
:aok
Feel free to add to this list
Adds:
AC wind generator (as found on sail boats)
Diode array (AC>DC)
Solar panels (as found on sail boats)
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=evr_tP9cJWY :neener:
Language warning.
ROFL :devil
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I shoot and hunt. I have done long range silhouette competition as well as normal hunting with the .308. The 06 has an edge over the .308 as far as velocity is concerned. It will shoot the heavier bullets, 168 and 180 grains, about 200+ FPS faster than the .308. The 308 is no slouch and certainly enough gun for elk as long as you do your part. I like the slightly lighter bullets better in the 308. I shoot the 150 gr for deer and feral pig. I shoot the 168 gr for long range shooting out to 500 meters in silhouette competition all in 308. For elk a good "premium" bullet like a Barnes in 168gr. will shoot flatter than the 180 in both 30-06 and 308. It will hold together and make plenty of penetration to get the job done. FWIW the military match ammo in .308 now seems to be the 174 gr slug, kind of right in between the 168 and the 180 weight.
I also hand load and my loads do not take a back seat to the "premium" ammo the manufacturers put out. The loads are tailored to the gun unlike the commercial stuff. Not that I am knocking commercial ammo. I shoot lots of surplus commercial stuff when I get a good price on it. Right now I use only 2 rifle powders fro 223 through 30-06. One will actually do all of them but is not the best option for accuracy in all or for velocity. BL(C)2 is a great rifle powder and pretty darn clean burning in medium velocity loads. I load some ammo for my step son to hunt with in his 06 and I set it for middle of the road velocity. Better recoil management and great accuracy. My 308 loads are in the same ball park. I stopped looking at max velocity loads a long time ago. Too little gain for the expense and wear on the rifle and brass not to mention me.
You do not need a magnum round to hunt North American game with the exception of the big bears. The 06 and 308 are plenty for deer and elk sized critters.
You really can't go wrong with either caliber. The 06 a little bit faster, the 308 maybe a touch more accurate and easier (cheaper) to find ammo and or brass.
I have had and used extensively the .223 (5.56), 22-250, 308, 3006 as well as black powder rifles to hunt game with. I would not feel under gunned with the .308 for anything other than the big bears. I love the 22-250 for varmints but the 223 is easier on the ears, barrel and far cheaper to shoot.
There is nothing wrong with the Remington 700 or the Savage rifles, especially with their accu trigger.
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:aok :rofl :rofl
I saw the howa in 30-06 and the package scope is much nicer and its only $429.00 vs the savage, same caliber at 399.00 with a cheap 35.00 scope.
Package scopes on the Howa's are usually Nikko-Stirling which are fairly 'average'. The entry level Savage is like the old Stevens isn't it - no accutrigger etc? imho the Howa is a much nicer action/finish (I had a Savage Stevens 200 in 223 for a while).
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Actually, the Mac-90 is not cheap. The BATFE has banned importation of firearms from China thanks to the Chinese trying to sneak in a boatload of FA rifles for civilian sale some time ago. So the price of them have gone up. A "cheap" variant of what you are speaking of is the WASR-10. ;) Oh, and while ammo is cheap for the time being, if the Obama administration has their way ammo sales from Europe will be banned soon and that mean SHY-HIGH prices for 7.62x39.
For learning "how to", that rifle is not a good tool, imo. A basic bolt action would be better.
I love the mac 90 had two of them, very easy to take apart, accurate, does not jam....but I wouldn't use it to hunt with though, I would rather have a 444 marlin for hunting :D
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When the zombie apocalypse comes (not a matter of if - only when - see U.K. London last week)...bullets will be worth their weight in gold
In fact they are high on the short list of things to have in quantity - such as:
Water - water purification capability
Antibiotics
Beans
Rice
Fire
Guns - Ammo (lots of both)
Basic fishing tackle kit - minimum of a hand line and several hooks in various sizes
Blades (knives, machete, axe) - Means to sharpen (stones & steels)
Food seeds
Vice grips
WD-40
Duct tape
Bailing Wire
Basic tool kit - mechanical
Basic tool kit - DC electrical
Basic tool kit - wood
:aok
Feel free to add to this list
Adds:
AC wind generator (as found on sail boats)
Diode array (AC>DC)
Solar panels (as found on sail boats)
something I see wrong with the way you think,
-do you keep a full drawer of fire? a dresser? house? how much fire is enough?
-no beer? then why bother staying alive.
-no pron either? not even a movie on beta? a have a whole room dedicated to my magazines, of course they're for research only, but i sure as hell would like to keep them.
:salute
semp
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I shoot and hunt. I have done long range silhouette competition as well as normal hunting with the .308. The 06 has an edge over the .308 as far as velocity is concerned. It will shoot the heavier bullets, 168 and 180 grains, about 200+ FPS faster than the .308. The 308 is no slouch and certainly enough gun for elk as long as you do your part. I like the slightly lighter bullets better in the 308. I shoot the 150 gr for deer and feral pig. I shoot the 168 gr for long range shooting out to 500 meters in silhouette competition all in 308. For elk a good "premium" bullet like a Barnes in 168gr. will shoot flatter than the 180 in both 30-06 and 308. It will hold together and make plenty of penetration to get the job done. FWIW the military match ammo in .308 now seems to be the 174 gr slug, kind of right in between the 168 and the 180 weight.
I also hand load and my loads do not take a back seat to the "premium" ammo the manufacturers put out. The loads are tailored to the gun unlike the commercial stuff. Not that I am knocking commercial ammo. I shoot lots of surplus commercial stuff when I get a good price on it. Right now I use only 2 rifle powders fro 223 through 30-06. One will actually do all of them but is not the best option for accuracy in all or for velocity. BL(C)2 is a great rifle powder and pretty darn clean burning in medium velocity loads. I load some ammo for my step son to hunt with in his 06 and I set it for middle of the road velocity. Better recoil management and great accuracy. My 308 loads are in the same ball park. I stopped looking at max velocity loads a long time ago. Too little gain for the expense and wear on the rifle and brass not to mention me.
You do not need a magnum round to hunt North American game with the exception of the big bears. The 06 and 308 are plenty for deer and elk sized critters.
You really can't go wrong with either caliber. The 06 a little bit faster, the 308 maybe a touch more accurate and easier (cheaper) to find ammo and or brass.
I have had and used extensively the .223 (5.56), 22-250, 308, 3006 as well as black powder rifles to hunt game with. I would not feel under gunned with the .308 for anything other than the big bears. I love the 22-250 for varmints but the 223 is easier on the ears, barrel and far cheaper to shoot.
There is nothing wrong with the Remington 700 or the Savage rifles, especially with their accu trigger.
'tis good to see another person who has true knowledge in said topic. :aok :salute
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I love the mac 90 had two of them, very easy to take apart, accurate, does not jam....but I wouldn't use it to hunt with though, I would rather have a 444 marlin for hunting :D
Nothing wrong with that. If you are fond of the 7.62x39, there is a company that took some old junky k98's and re-barreled them to 7.62x39, so hunting with that caliber is not out of the question. However, the .30-30 has identical ballistics and has far more of a variety of ammo to chose from. ;)
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If you looking for a cheap, reliable, fairly accurate bolt action to start, I'd say grab $200 bucks and go to your local gun show/store and get a nice M91/30 and one of those spam cans and starting plinking.
I recently picked up a '39 Tula and she is a blast! Literally! :aok
But I also use my step dads Savage in 30-06 and she is good too. :D
Mosin Nagants are awesome first rifles. Very simple weapon. The bolt is only 5 parts and it fits together like a puzzle piece. Fun cheap and easy to use/maintain
I also have a 39 tula :aok
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something I see wrong with the way you think,
-do you keep a full drawer of fire? a dresser? house? how much fire is enough?
-no beer? then why bother staying alive.
-no pron either? not even a movie on beta? a have a whole room dedicated to my magazines, of course they're for research only, but i sure as hell would like to keep them.
:salute
semp
Fire good - fire warm - fire cook meat - fire boil wort...be able to make fire in a blizzard
Beer - make beer - grain, yeast, water...hops..make with fire
Pron - makes you go blind - rather...need shelter mate - who can make fire - and then beer - pron follows
Uhgh
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I live in Ole Louisiana and I have a .444 I absolutley love it but around here most of the hunting I do is duck hunting with a 12ga Remington 870 Wingmaster chambering a 3" drylok shell.
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Man, gun people are so serious. Riots happen, as they did in London, but rice and WD-40 generally don't help. Or answer the poor guy's question.
So to answer the question...
1) Figure out what you want to DO with your rifle. Hunt? Target shoot? Climb a clock tower and make a political statement?
2) Figure out what rifles will do that.
3) Get the one you like.
There aren't really entry-level rifles. There are cheap pieces of crap that you want to avoid, but don't waste your time with some phallic-compensation elephant gun.
However I think what you're really asking is what rifle to learn to shoot with. Hopefully this will help.
If you're learning to shoot, what you need is to get a lot of rounds down-range - this matters WAY more than the rifle. First, learn the principles of marksmanship. Then get a half-decent .22 long bolt action with an adjustable iron peep sight and hit the range. Yes, REAL men will laugh at you with your popgun compared to their custom 30-06 with the 10x scope, the bipod, the built-in water purifier and all. However they will not outshoot you when you're cranking out a thousand rounds a week. Even if you can afford this with .30-06, the learning curve will be steeper with fullbore. Why make it hard?
Once you have your rifle, practice the principles of marksmanship at home, just getting used to getting into position, getting a sight picture and releasing the round (obviously don't do this with live ammo!) Find a range where you can shoot from sixty feet, it's less macho than a hundred metres, but it will let you get more groups done in less time. Get a spotting scope (not a rifle scope!) and a notebook. Put up ten-target paper, get in the prone and start shooting groups. Fire a group of five, mentally noting any flaw in your technique for each round, check results with the scope, make WRITTEN notes for EVERY ROUND about what technique flaws (or triumphs) led to what result. Your notebook should look like this.
Day: 12 Aug 11
Conditions: Sunny and clear, 32, no wind.
Group #1
1. Position was good
2. snatched trigger, went high and right.
3.
4.
5. position shifted, went right.
Group #2
etc.
Just keep doing this until lunch. Then do it more after lunch. Then do it more after supper. Then go home and come back the next day. You'll quickly learn what a good shot feels like, and to correlate errors with results. When you get good at groups look into shot plotting, wind and temperature adjustment, other positions and more advanced stuff. If at all possible get a coach, but there are many more bad coaches than good ones, so if your coach deviates very far from the above plan, get another one. Above all, fire a thousand rounds a week, and do it every week for a year. If you can shoot more, do it. For .22 long this will cost you about $2000 in ammo, plus a couple of hundred for the rifle, which is a far better plan than investing $2000 in a rifle and a couple of hundred in the ammo for it. You will end the year a very good shot indeed.
At this point, you can go out and get any rifle you like, and it will do what you want it to.
And always remember! Guns don't kill people, irresponsible gun owners kill people.
;)
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Go big or go home......Barett 50 cal...
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I love the mac 90 had two of them, very easy to take apart, accurate, does not jam....but I wouldn't use it to hunt with though, I would rather have a 444 marlin for hunting dinosaurs :D
Fixed :aok
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Fixed :aok
:rofl
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Go big or go home......Barett 50 cal...
Guys like you feel the need to make up for a small appendage. ;)
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I have narrowed it down to two rifles based on reviews. However I know this bbs has more opinions and informed people than the forums I've been doing my research on. So far I have been seriously considering buying either a Savage 111 or the Marlin X7 in 30-06 or 308 caliber. So far I have not seen a bad word about either of these rifles. Anyone know of another rifle that falls into this price range with an equal or better reputation? Or if one of these rifles has an edge over the other?
Thanks in advance
Of those two, the Savage, in .308. However, I suggest you check gun broker and auction arms, as well as Davidson's. My personal rifle of choice for a bolt action is the Winchester Model 70. I own about a 1/2 dozen of them in various calibers. I've bought a couple of them really cheap from the auction sites, and a couple really cheap at WalMart. I think I've bought 4 of my rifles for under $425, tax, shipping, and transfer fee, with a nice Simmons scope.
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Your more trusting than I am. I don't buy what I can't touch. I also want something new.
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Your more trusting than I am. I don't buy what I can't touch. I also want something new.
They were all new. From dealers.
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Bummer! Went in to buy the 111 and filled out the paper work. Then I get a "delayed".....? WTF?!!!!
"if we don't call you back by the 23rd then he's ok" was the response to the store.
Anyone been here before? Just wondering if it's the 14.00 dollars I owe the IRS. :noid
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I see this at our shop occasionally, 80% of the time its that your name is the same as someone in the data base whom shouldnt be trying to buy a gun. I wouldnt worry to much if you have nothing to worry about. Could also be a random check, meaning your the lucky one out of every 50 calls that gets delayed to make sure the system (NICS/PICS) is working.
My favorite was when someone would come in, ask us to run the check to "see" if he could buy a gun(knowing full well he shouldnt even be trying).........I used to tell them that if they think there is a reason they wont pass, then no i wont, and you need to go check with your local law enforcement office. When they would tell me ok nevermind, Id like to buy this gun, I (we) wouldnt sell it to them.Owner of the shop backs us up everytime :aok
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Go with a .308 or 7mm-08 and learn to place the shot exactly where it should be. Follow good barrel cleaning practices and use copper as well as powder solvent. See online videos about correct cleaning a cleaning rod guides to avoid damaging barrel.
Savage is hard to beat for the price. Get a good recoil pad as well. No need to beat yourself up. Limbsaver is a good brand. Don't go cheap on the scope.
Howa, Tika, Browning, Winchester are all good shooters.
.30-06 is a great cartridge and you can get good factory ammo at Walmart even if needed in a pinch. However it's got a kick and since you may have not shot a lot you don't want to develop a flinch. 270 has taken game all over as well but I like a little bigger bullet.
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A good .06 doesn't have a bad kick. I have 2. My grandfather's Sears & Roebuck .06 is the only gun I have ever been afraid of. Stinkin thing kicks like a mule. Solid walnut stock with original recoil pad on it. My Winchester Model 70 .30-06 doesn't have 1/10 the kick of that beast. The recoil is actually lighter after I broke the original stock and replaced it with a synthetic.
I did start hunting/shooting when I was 10 though. Started with a .22, moved up to a .410, then a .30-30 which was MY first gun that I purchased on my own at 13 (Dad signed for it). I got 10 bucks a week allowance and I walked across the street from my grandmothers every Sunday to put my 10 bucks down on the layaway. Took me all summer to buy it (it was $130 in 1983ish).
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SWEET...got the call. Going to the range on Saturday. :aok
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I learned to shoot usin a lever action Marlin .22 .. as a previous poster said, rounds down range and knowledge of how to shoot will get you where you want to go.
Moved up to a semi auto Remington .22 rifle .. I would go out with 3k rounds or so and just plink at a range ..practicin shootin the center out of a paper target.
Moved the target out when it got too easy.
Took my first deer with open sight Springfield 30-06 .. tween the eyes at 30 yards or so.
I was 15 then, had spent a summer shootin crows for a farmer with my .22.
He paid me a nickel apeice and I financed alla U-control and R/C planes I useda fly doin just that :)
As in Aces High .. it was the finisher after a proper setup:
.. a few hours of trackin thru the snow up at the South fork of the Dearborn River, near Lincoln, Montana.
He heard us and was behind a rock shelf, head popped up framed by bush right at ground level, I whispered to Dad, he had no visual till I fired and the head dropped.
Dad lectured me on bein sure of my shot all the way over to the shelf .. deer was layin at the bottom, 4-point, dressed out to about 180lbs when we finished.
We (my brother, Dad, a friend of Dad's, and I) packed out two miles back to the camp and truck (a '49 international.. went anywhere)
Tip for hunting in the mountains of Montana . . get a good side arm .. 357/44 Ruger or some such.
Be proficient with it.
You have a bear/Elk/Hog pissed off and come out of the bushes at you just frik-kin shoot it till it stops movin.
Rifle can be a hindrance in close up encounters.
They do happen.
Basic training in the USAF ..first day with the M-16 was 'interesting' ..I shot expert ..it was soo much like shootin my lil .22 :)
I useda shoot the center out of my target and then work on the guys next to me -evil grin-
Years later they converted by usin .22 adapters in the M-16 .. made it even more like my lil .22 :)
-Frank aka GE
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Was wondering about the side arm. I can pick the ears off of you at 30 yds with my Glock 19. If I loaded g-shock ammo would that be sufficient for lions, pigs and bears? considering I'll hit them in the head 12 outta 16 rapid fire?
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Was wondering about the side arm. I can pick the ears off of you at 30 yds with my Glock 19. If I loaded g-shock ammo would that be sufficient for lions, pigs and bears? considering I'll hit them in the head 12 outta 16 rapid fire?
Come back down to earth. Stop talking tactical ghetto. If you are going to hunt with a handgun, use a proper caliber and gun. A Glock 19 is neither. You dont want volume, you want accuracy. A 6in barreled .357 Mag revlover loaded with 158gr HP's will do nicely. When a lion, hog, or bear comes charging, you dont have time for "12 outa 16", you will have time for 1 or 2 aimed shots and when those rounds connect you want them to stop dead the target and a 9mm Luger is lacking. Trust me. This comes from a guy who carried a 9mm Sig while on LEO duty. Wild game and mankind are 2 different things.
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Was wondering about the side arm. I can pick the ears off of you at 30 yds with my Glock 19. If I loaded g-shock ammo would that be sufficient for lions, pigs and bears? considering I'll hit them in the head 12 outta 16 rapid fire?
Only if you hold it sideways.
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Stop talking tactical ghetto.
There's tactical ghetto speak? What part of "is G-shock ammo"..by the way there is a g-shock brand name of ammo out there....is ghetto the "G" ? I swear you ask a legitimate question and the complete maroon's come out!
Only if you hold it sideways.
What dip stick takes the sights of their gun out of the sight picture? Probably the guy thats going to die.
And further more what the F is both of your problem? It was a simple question. Your answer should have been "9mm is not a good round for a charging bear even if it is G-shock .....etc.
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We had a Bull Elk come chargin out of the brush while we were walkin down a path .. heard him comin from a few hundred feet so we were out of his path when he came into view about 30 feet from us.
Dad's friend had a 30-30 lever action Winchester.
Dad put his arm over the guys barrel and said that lil popgun will just piss him off.
I was 6'2" when I was 15 and my head was at this beasts shoulder.. it was *huge*
It braked to a stop when it saw us, took a long look, Dad and I both had our Rugers on him ..if he had taken the step toward us we would have had a hell of a time dressin all that out and packin it ..prolly 1500 lbs of meat.
The beast turned and continued on its way, smashing down small trees off into the distance.
We kinda looked at each other .. laughed a bit .. I mean we would have been at that all day long just cleanin it up.. LOL.
You'd want a round that will go thru all that bone first time, no muss no fuss .. and if you took an unexpected dip in the creek you would still want that gun to fire if required ..revolver will. Semi auto may not.
-Frank aka GE
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There's tactical ghetto speak? What part of "is G-shock ammo"..by the way there is a g-shock brand name of ammo out there....is ghetto the "G" ? I swear you ask a legitimate question and the complete maroon's come out!
What dip stick takes the sights of their gun out of the sight picture? Probably the guy thats going to die.
And further more what the F is both of your problem? It was a simple question. Your answer should have been "9mm is not a good round for a charging bear even if it is G-shock .....etc.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v229/theatomicpunkkk/LightenUpFrancis.jpg)
:neener:
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Was wondering about the side arm. I can pick the ears off of you at 30 yds with my Glock 19. If I loaded g-shock ammo would that be sufficient for lions, pigs and bears? considering I'll hit them in the head 12 outta 16 rapid fire?
Aside from the fact that this post shows a distinct lack of any knowledge about hunting you need to check the regs. You will find that hunting regulations cover things like type of weapon used, caliber and amount of shells allowed in the weapon at the time.
No one who knows anything about hunting those kinds of critters in their right mind thinks that any 9 x 19 from ANY style firearm is a valid round for hunting lions and bears. Trying to do so would be a definite application for a well deserved Darwin award. That gene pool would show serious need of cleaning.
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Roger that!
Maverick, I was going to post the same question earlier but checked the Montana regs for and answer to that particular question and found no such limitations (which I thought was kind of unusual).
http://fwp.mt.gov/hunting/regulations/
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I shoot a .454 Casull and Load up a .45 Colt to beyond .44 mag performance.
I have seen both Griz and Lions in the wild. To even think about purposely hunting one of them with ANY kind of handgun is about as crazy an idea as one could come up with. Oh I know its been done, and usually with a couple .458 win rifles as backup. First off South Africa is the only place in Africa you can even hunt with a handgun, and maybe thats changed since Ive been there. Imagine pulling out your trusty 9mm here http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-SH78t65Ii0&feature=related
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I shoot a .454 Casull and Load up a .45 Colt to beyond .44 mag performance.
Slight derailment of the thread, but this sentence intrigues me. Why would you do such a thing instead of just using .454 brass? Or are you meaning you have a .454 Casull, and you also have a second pistol in .45 colt you load heavy?
edit: Just watched the lion video. As long as I live, I don't think I'll ever understand people who decide to go hunting big cats, particularly on foot. Particularly with bolt guns. I could be persuaded to hunt big cats from a jeep if it were equipped with a ma deuce, but I wouldn't see much point to it. <g>
Wiley.
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I shoot a .454 Casull and Load up a .45 Colt to beyond .44 mag performance.
I have seen both Griz and Lions in the wild. To even think about purposely hunting one of them with ANY kind of handgun is about as crazy an idea as one could come up with. Oh I know its been done, and usually with a couple .458 win rifles as backup. First off South Africa is the only place in Africa you can even hunt with a handgun, and maybe thats changed since Ive been there. Imagine pulling out your trusty 9mm here http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-SH78t65Ii0&feature=related
Notice the high fence in the background. Canned hunt. :mad:
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yup that's not hunting.
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Slight derailment of the thread, but this sentence intrigues me. Why would you do such a thing instead of just using .454 brass? Or are you meaning you have a .454 Casull, and you also have a second pistol in .45 colt you load heavy?
Wiley.
you can shoot 45 colt ( somtimes called 45 long colt) out of a 454 Casull. 45LC is cheaper (relatively speaking)than 454 ammunition.
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I know, what confuses me is if he's loading for performance, why not use casull brass? I guess I've just never been a fan of shooting the shorter stuff in the longer calibers for any reason. I get the cheap practice angle, but I'm just curious why he'd do it.
No big deal it just struck me as odd.
Wiley.
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Yes. I have both. A Rageing Bull and a Vaqero. I dont bother with .45 Colt thru a Casull cause, #1 I dont have to, #2 I dont want the carbon buildup in the cylinders, #3 I Load the Casull for extreme performance. I bought the vaqero for mostly cowboy shooting anyway but do ocasionally load it up just for the heck of it. Almost all Lion hunting in RSA is canned now. I have no interest in Hunting Lion, not that I can afford it, but if I did it would be with my .375 H&H.
Slight derailment of the thread, but this sentence intrigues me. Why would you do such a thing instead of just using .454 brass? Or are you meaning you have a .454 Casull, and you also have a second pistol in .45 colt you load heavy?
edit: Just watched the lion video. As long as I live, I don't think I'll ever understand people who decide to go hunting big cats, particularly on foot. Particularly with bolt guns. I could be persuaded to hunt big cats from a jeep if it were equipped with a ma deuce, but I wouldn't see much point to it. <g>
Wiley.
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Roger that!
Maverick, I was going to post the same question earlier but checked the Montana regs for and answer to that particular question and found no such limitations (which I thought was kind of unusual).
http://fwp.mt.gov/hunting/regulations/
Not unusual at all. This is MONTANA, Less than 1,000,000 people and most of the hunters want to insure the animal goes down, So the proper caliber is the concern, especially with elk they are apx. 500 - 800 lb. animal. Anything less than a .270 is irresponsible in my book. The 30-06 is prob the best all around for Deer and ELK. I have taken elk as far out as 437 yards and as close as 10 yards. Its the most effective caliber in diverse conditions. Deer arent an issue. I hunt elk and shoot deer. I plan for elk not deer. Plus the deer up here are good size and weight. The thing about elk is that 12 of the 16 elk Ive gotten were QUICK snap shots freehand within 100 yards in the trees. No time for bi-pods or leaning against trees, prone etc. You need to practice hitting an 8"target on a snap shot freehand at 100 yards. Pull up count to 1 or 2 sec and shoot. That works for me.
Kam
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Yes. I have both. A Rageing Bull and a Vaqero. I dont bother with .45 Colt thru a Casull cause, #1 I dont have to, #2 I dont want the carbon buildup in the cylinders, #3 I Load the Casull for extreme performance. I bought the vaqero for mostly cowboy shooting anyway but do ocasionally load it up just for the heck of it. Almost all Lion hunting in RSA is canned now. I have no interest in Hunting Lion, not that I can afford it, but if I did it would be with my .375 H&H.
Number 2 was where I was stuck. :). Makes good sense now.
Wiley.
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I own a Uberti Remington 1895 in .45 Long Colt. I've fired some potent hand loads through it, but I find that lower velocity ammo is a tad more accurate. The hand loads were about 20 grains of W296 under a 225 grain bullet. I seem to recall that my old Speer manual stated that these rounds developed well over 1,300 fps at the muzzle. Back off the load to 16 grains and accuracy gets noticeably better, at the expense of knockdown power and penetration.
Likewise, I've loaded .357 Magnum with 23 grains of W296 under a 110 grain JHP. In my Rossi SRS (clone of the Winchester 92) with its 16" barrel, these consistently generate around 2,100 fps. Move up to a 125 grain JHP, and muzzle velocity drops to just over 1,900 fps. I love this rifle... Very light, very fast action and good accuracy. If I had to pick only one of my weapons to use for everything, I'd pick this lever gun. Best pack rifle that I ever owned....
(Edit: If you buy a Rossi Win '92, invest in a spare firing pin... This is the rifle's only weakness. I had one machined and case hardened as the original ones are not very durable)
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Entry level rifle?
Strange choice of words
Your first rifle should be an AR 15 chambered in 223
You should be intimately proficient in its use, cleaning and repair
You should own at a minimum 2000 rounds of ammo (55 grain FMJ BT)
You can kill game with a knife or spear, and start fires with a 9 volt battery and steel wool
If you own one rifle...make it an AR...and your next investment should be a folding shovel
Keep your powder dry
Salute
Oneway
Interested on your thoughts on 55 grain for the ar. With 1/7 twist the groups come in tighter with 69 grain.
I was told to match the grain with the barrel twist. Seems to work.