Aces High Bulletin Board
Help and Support Forums => Help and Training => Topic started by: JustEric on August 18, 2011, 05:08:30 PM
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I often get into tnb fights that go into a flat turn (merry go round). When I'm flying a spit against a F class plane I point the nose up while in the flat turn and do a spiral climb. I don't actually climb but I go down vertically slower than the F class plane. The F class plane runs out of air before I do and they either crash (most of the time) or flatten out and give me their 6. My question is, what makes the spit retain altitude better than the F class plane? What factors can I look at when comparing planes to see if a spiral climb will be effective? I was thinking it's a combination of the climb rate and acceleration that keeps you above the other plane in a spiral climb.
I know the spiral climb is not the end all be all ACM maneuver but it sure seems to be one of the most important to perfect.
For Molly => :devil
Thanks,
Pollux
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Pollux,
Are you talking a 109F4? vs a spit 5.
:salute
BigRat
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Pollux,
Are you talking a 109F4? vs a spit 5.
:salute
BigRat
Pretty sure he is talking about F4ish planes
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Pollux
I think you answered your own question,climbrate and acceleration, however drag also planes a huge part.A streamlined watercooled engine,like in the spit,tends to have much less drag than a big wide radial like in a corsair or hellcat.
Sure there's other factors involved and we could get into a great aero discussion but basically your correct.
:salute
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Thanks for the quick responses. Yes, I was talking about the F4U, F6F, FM2 and F4F (F series) planes.
I didn't think about drag yet but I suspect that has a fuzzy relationship to Acceleration. Acceleration is probably determined by power minus drag. But as a general rule, I'll bet you can use Acceleration as a indication of drag also.
I'm looking for some general rules that I can use to make a plane to plane specific tactics sheet. For example, Spit 9 versus F4u-1. Spit 9 should use a spiral climb. Spit 9 should use loops. Spit 9 should not try to out turn the F4U-1 in a flat turn. Spit 9 should not follow F4U - 1 in yo yo's at the same alt. Spit 9 should not try to scissor with the F4U-1. Spit 9 should not follow rolling scissors with the F4U-1. The important thing to remember is that the Spit 9 cannot beat the F4u-1 in a slow turning fight and it should use it's acceleration and climb rate to push the F4u-1 to the ground.
The way I envision the tactic sheet is to create one sheet for each plane. Down the page you have every other plane listed. Across the page you have tactics (like flat turn, spiral climb, yo yo, loop, scissor, rolling scissor ...) and maybe even comparative attributes (faster or slower at 1k alt, better turn rate with flaps, better turn rate without flaps, better climb rate ...). The idea is that when I'm flying I have a cheat sheet to remind me how to fight my fight when I run into a plane I'm not used to flying against.
Back to looking for some general rules that I can use formulate tactics. From the previous responses it sounds like I might be able to compare two planes Climb and Acceleration rates to determine if a spiral climb could be used as a tactic. For example, a Spit 9 has a better climb rate and faster acceleration then an FM2. So, the conclusion is that the Spit 9 can employ a spiral climb as an effective offensive/defensive maneuver. That all sounds good until you look at the comparison between the P38j and the F4u-1. The P38 as a better climb rate and also has better acceleration then the F4u-1. The conclusion would be that the P38 could use the spiral climb as a tactic against the F4u-1. I'm not sure but I don't think the P38j could use a spiral climb against a F4u-1. I think the last thing the P38 should do is flat turns. Back to square one :( Maybe I need to consider another variable.
Does anyone know if someone has already created a tactics cheat sheet?
Thanks and please respond if you have any thoughts.
Pollux
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plane to plane specific tactics sheets might possibly give players a false sense of security
the major factor that always comes in to play between the 2 planes in the fight is that one will initially be the "Energy Fighter" while the other will be the "Angles Fighter" technically speaking.....
the plane with the Higher E, regardless if it is the F4U-1 or if it is the Spit 9....... will be the "E"nergy Fighter plane.......... and will remain the Energy Fighter until the pilot of the plane bleeds his "E" to equal or below the "E" of the opposing plane, and the slower plane will be the "Angles Fighter" and will remain the Angles Fighter until the pilot equalizes the Energy between the 2 planes or until the slower pilot works their way to having the most Energy...... at this time the planes switch up........
other factors that come in to play will be:
a players skill level in the plane he is in vs their opponents skill level of the plane their opponent is in
a players overall skill level in game vs their opponents over all skill level in game
time would be better served learning the fundamentals of BFM, of Energy Management, of Situational Awareness........... instead of trying to focus on interpetation of tricks or tactics for certian plane types
regarding the original Topic of this thread.... you ask about a "Spiral Climb" but talk about being the last one to the deck which is more along the lines of a "Spiral Dive" ........ although you are describing a turn fight where you are using yo-yos and end up losing altitude over the course of the engagement
hope this helps
TC
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Spit 9 should not try to out turn the F4U-1 in a flat turn. Spit 9 should not follow F4U - 1 in yo yo's at the same alt. Spit 9 should not try to scissor with the F4U-1. Spit 9 should not follow rolling scissors with the F4U-1. The important thing to remember is that the Spit 9 cannot beat the F4u-1 in a slow turning fight and it should use it's acceleration and climb rate to push the F4u-1 to the ground.
Actually, Spit IX is more capable than you give it credit for and can hold its own vs F4U-1/F4U-1A, including all situations you listed above.
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What factors can I look at when comparing planes to see if a spiral climb will be effective? I was thinking it's a combination of the climb rate and acceleration that keeps you above the other plane in a spiral climb.
It is all about the available power (per mass) of the plane. Since the G loads will be greater than 1, induced drag will play an increasing role as the G loads increase. The Spit has both aspects in favor - It has good power for its weight and its induced drag is quite small (parasitic drag is not so low for its weight by the way). The F4U, F6F etc planes are high wingloaded planes which means that typically they produce higher induced drag, in particular at low speeds (they must maintain higher angle of attack to pull the same G as a spit).
If the maneuver is an actual climbing spiral or a descending spiral depends on how much E is burned in the maneuver vs. the engine power. The F series will have a much less favorable energy budget that the spit and will get worse as the spiral is tightened.
I'm looking for some general rules that I can use to make a plane to plane specific tactics sheet. For example, Spit 9 versus F4u-1. Spit 9 should use a spiral climb. Spit 9 should use loops. Spit 9 should not try to out turn the F4U-1 in a flat turn. Spit 9 should not follow F4U - 1 in yo yo's at the same alt. Spit 9 should not try to scissor with the F4U-1. Spit 9 should not follow rolling scissors with the F4U-1. The important thing to remember is that the Spit 9 cannot beat the F4u-1 in a slow turning fight and it should use it's acceleration and climb rate to push the F4u-1 to the ground.
That is completely incorrect. Spit 9 turn a hell of a lot better than the F4u. You have to keep a clear distinction between instantaneous and sustained turns, as well as between turn radius and turn rate. The F4u are exceptional at instantaneous maneuvers and can achieve surprisingly small turn radius. The spits are better at any sustained maneuvers due to the better energy budget and will eat the F4u if it comes down to turn rate. The Spits 9,8,16 are perhaps the best E fighters in the game when the fight is kept below 300 mph, without giving up much of their TnB ability (Note that I said E fighters, not BnZ which is only 1 form of E fighting).
The F4u looses energy fast in high G maneuvers. It will keep doing very tight and fast turns as long as it keeps loosing speed and altitude. Once the speeds drop to around 200 mph and the F4u can no longer pull into a blackout, the spit will have a massive turn rate advantage and the energy gap will open quickly in favor of the spit. The problem is that at this point most pilots do not understand the difference between turn rate and turn radius: they either try to slow down with the F4u and blow toss out the window the spit's energy advantage, or keep fast and pull on the stick as hard as possible to maximize the turn rate just to fly into the F4u guns because they do not understand the geometry of the fight.
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Thanks and please respond if you have any thoughts.
I'm a mediocre pilot at best, but I'll offer my thoughts anyway!
Spit 9 vs F4U-1, my general plan is to keep it turny until the F4U deploys flaps, then use the vertical to out-E him...works even better in a Spit8 or 16
I don't think the cheat sheets are a great idea, after a while you just get to know what tactics to employ vs what planes...flying them all yourself especially helps identify their weaknesses :]
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It is all about the available power (per mass) of the plane. Since the G loads will be greater than 1, induced drag will play an increasing role as the G loads increase. The Spit has both aspects in favor - It has good power for its weight and its induced drag is quite small (parasitic drag is not so low for its weight by the way). The F4U, F6F etc planes are high wingloaded planes which means that typically they produce higher induced drag, in particular at low speeds (they must maintain higher angle of attack to pull the same G as a spit).
If the maneuver is an actual climbing spiral or a descending spiral depends on how much E is burned in the maneuver vs. the engine power. The F series will have a much less favorable energy budget that the spit and will get worse as the spiral is tightened.
That is completely incorrect. Spit 9 turn a hell of a lot better than the F4u. You have to keep a clear distinction between instantaneous and sustained turns, as well as between turn radius and turn rate. The F4u are exceptional at instantaneous maneuvers and can achieve surprisingly small turn radius. The spits are better at any sustained maneuvers due to the better energy budget and will eat the F4u if it comes down to turn rate. The Spits 9,8,16 are perhaps the best E fighters in the game when the fight is kept below 300 mph, without giving up much of their TnB ability (Note that I said E fighters, not BnZ which is only 1 form of E fighting).
The F4u looses energy fast in high G maneuvers. It will keep doing very tight and fast turns as long as it keeps loosing speed and altitude. Once the speeds drop to around 200 mph and the F4u can no longer pull into a blackout, the spit will have a massive turn rate advantage and the energy gap will open quickly in favor of the spit. The problem is that at this point most pilots do not understand the difference between turn rate and turn radius: they either try to slow down with the F4u and blow toss out the window the spit's energy advantage, or keep fast and pull on the stick as hard as possible to maximize the turn rate just to fly into the F4u guns because they do not understand the geometry of the fight.
I think your response pretty much supports what I was saying. When I fly against a F4U-1 to F4U-4 with a Spit 9, I know all I have to do is survive until the e states are turned in my favor. Usually that takes from 30 seconds to a couple minutes. Before the e states are equalized, the F4u uses it's superior instantaneous turn rate (with flaps) and superior turn radius to get angles. If I can survive long enough, the F4u will go below my e state and have to rely on it's speed and alt to feed its turning hunger. If I play into the F4u's game, I will cut my throttle and try to pull in behind while it uses copious amounts of alt to feed its turn, and give up my adv. That is why I stay high, let the f4u continue to use it's energy (speed/alt) until it's all gone and then go in for the kill. Trying to turn with the spit, means you cut your throttle, and give up your comparative advantage. Basically, the f4u should lose the fight every time unless the Spit pilot makes a mistake. Of course if the F4u has a substantial energy advantage they may get the kill with their instantaneous turn rate and turn radius advantages.
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plane to plane specific tactics sheets might possibly give players a false sense of security
the major factor that always comes in to play between the 2 planes in the fight is that one will initially be the "Energy Fighter" while the other will be the "Angles Fighter" technically speaking.....
the plane with the Higher E, regardless if it is the F4U-1 or if it is the Spit 9....... will be the "E"nergy Fighter plane.......... and will remain the Energy Fighter until the pilot of the plane bleeds his "E" to equal or below the "E" of the opposing plane, and the slower plane will be the "Angles Fighter" and will remain the Angles Fighter until the pilot equalizes the Energy between the 2 planes or until the slower pilot works their way to having the most Energy...... at this time the planes switch up........
other factors that come in to play will be:
a players skill level in the plane he is in vs their opponents skill level of the plane their opponent is in
a players overall skill level in game vs their opponents over all skill level in game
time would be better served learning the fundamentals of BFM, of Energy Management, of Situational Awareness........... instead of trying to focus on interpetation of tricks or tactics for certian plane types
regarding the original Topic of this thread.... you ask about a "Spiral Climb" but talk about being the last one to the deck which is more along the lines of a "Spiral Dive" ........ although you are describing a turn fight where you are using yo-yos and end up losing altitude over the course of the engagement
hope this helps
TC
QFT
read this and then reread it :aok
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Co E, Co alt, lets say 300mph speeds both planes. A well flown Corsair can immelman up twice, and is gong to be at about 100mph at the top of the 2nd one. I'd venture to say the spit 9 is going to be in a better situation speed wise at the top of the 2nd, and with far superior acceleration can definitly get above the hog on the third merge. From the 2nd merge on it's the spits job to get above the hog, it's the hogs job to survive, since up is not much of an option at this point. The hog after the 2nd verticle move should be in E conservation/rebuilding mode, the spit has to be carefull not to let the hog hide enough E below it, for a flap dump and a quick pull up shot (you know that thing I pull on you, when you think you are safe). This is the reason I'm so keen on teaching a hog pilot to gain the high ground early, becouse later it's a much harder option due to the hogs poor climb and acceleration compared to the spit. Pollux you've been sparring with me for long enough now, you know if that hog gets above that spit, the spit is in trouble. But if the spit can fight a verticle energy managment game with the hog, the hog has the harder fight. What I teach for the hog goes for almost any plane in the set, fight for the high ground. you want to be fighting down while your opponent fights up. Giving up the verticle early in a fight is a bad idea in almost all cases. It's the same if I was fighting with an F4U or an A20, I want that high ground early as possible. Besides Pollux, aren't you supposed to be flying the F4U :old:
:salute
BigRat
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Hey Big Rat :neener: Yes, I remember many fights with your F4U where you surprised me with your e state. :salute
Thanks to everyone for your input!
Pollux
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A huge benefit of the spiral climb is that you are forcing the enemy to turn to try to get guns on you. Rather than a straight climb where they can shoot at you. So it is in it's simplest form the same as a flat turn to evade being shot but with the element of climb added. In this way it is possible for a lesser turning/better climbing plane to use it's climb advantage combined with it's turn disadvantage to produce a safe out-climbing acm than a straight climb. Not relating to your question particularly, just throwing it out there!
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A huge benefit of the spiral climb is that you are forcing the enemy to turn to try to get guns on you. Rather than a straight climb where they can shoot at you. So it is in it's simplest form the same as a flat turn to evade being shot but with the element of climb added. In this way it is possible for a lesser turning/better climbing plane to use it's climb advantage combined with it's turn disadvantage to produce a safe out-climbing acm than a straight climb. Not relating to your question particularly, just throwing it out there!
Not only that but if the guy following doesn't have enough E and trys to cut inside the turn he has to go almost vertical possibly leading to a rope or, if he starts to stall he might have to level or dive giving you his canopy or his six. Either way it's a good thing as long as you have the E to do it and he doesn't.
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As far as making "cheat sheets" for each probable plane matchup....you're getting way too complicated. It's not like it was in RL where there was a limited number of threat airframes you could reasonably expect to encounter. Keep it as simple as possible.
Know which fight you are going to fight BEFORE the first merge. You can do that by estimating your E state versus the bandit. Based on E states and a general understanding of your turn, climb, and acceleration rates versus the bandit's you're going to immediately go for an angles fight or an energy fight while always trying to maintain an escape route. If you're caught low and slow you're obviously more limited in your options. I fly the hogs pretty exclusively which makes the equation even simpler since it's "limited" at best in acceleration and climb (especially the birdcage -1) so if I'm caught at an E disadvantage and the opponent's first move is an energy retaining merge then I know I'm in deep doo. Most every plane in the arena can BnZ a low slow hog at will. My only chance is to show enough leg to bait them into the only fight I have a chance of fighting and that's a ragged edge down and dirty turn fight full of plenty of flap work and a bunch of high and low yo yo's and some serious foot stomping rudder and throttle work (the hog is one VERY busy plane to fly well in a slow fight).
KISS principle. Co E --> Can I out turn him or can he out accelerate/out climb me? Yes = Angles fight. No = E fight. You'll get a feel for blending the two fights together based on how the bandit reacts to your maneuvering.
-dtrip
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What factors can I look at when comparing planes to see if a spiral climb will be effective? I was thinking it's a combination of the climb rate and acceleration that keeps you above the other plane in a spiral climb.
I know the spiral climb is not the end all be all ACM maneuver but it sure seems to be one of the most important to perfect.
Thanks,
Pollux
Actually, you migh tlike to look at Badboy's tutorial on the E-M diagram. http://www.simhq.com/_air/air_011a.html
Let me attempt to paraphrase If you pull g above your sustained turn limit at whatever point you are on the speed continuum, you will decelerate at constant alt. In order to maintain speed, however, you might trade alt. So, these birds you're flying against likely just don't have as high a sustained turn line as you and have to trade energy for the g they're pulling - and they do this by giving up their alt to maintain their speed at the g-loading dictated by the knife-fight they're in.
In this case, it'll be instructive to, for your desired comparative purposes, go back to the sustained turn limit equation - wing loading (lower is better) and bank angle (max - higher is better) feature prominently here. Wingloading is clear enough and the Spit has a nice low one . Max bank is dictated by power loading.
In short, low wingloading and high power loading make for a bad-aced fighter - at least in the turn and burn or angles game. If you follow Badby's E-M logic, though, the right hand side of the e-m is the plac ein which a higher wingloaded a/c can make up for his sustained turn deficit - another topic.
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Actually, you migh tlike to look at Badboy's tutorial on the E-M diagram. http://www.simhq.com/_air/air_011a.html
This should be required reading for all aspiring virtual ace dweebs on the concept of rate of "N-R-G" change, what controls it, and how it impacts an airplane's "maneuver-ability" including spiral climbs.
....In short, low wingloading and high power loading make for a bad-aced fighter.
QFT :aok
(http://www.tonyrogers.com/news/images/0104viper5.jpg)
....
My penny's worth on Air Combat Principia:
1) There are no absolutes in air combat, it's all relative.
2) You can't defy aerodynamics, nature always wins.
3) There is no spoon (i.e., if your thinking is limited, your dogfighting will be limited by your thinking).
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DTango - I love that photo. It's a perfect example of the most counterinituitive aspect of this thing - how a poorer-turning but faster a/c can get 6 on a better turner.
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DTango - I love that photo. It's a perfect example of the most counterinituitive aspect of this thing - how a poorer-turning but faster a/c can get 6 on a better turner.
:lol that wasn't quite my intent with the pic...but yeah, your comment illustrates pricinpia #1 and #3!
BTW the pic is the F-16 demonstrating it's better turn rate and radius vs. the F-4E.
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One thing I forgot to add, and that people might think about a little, was the impact of drag. Recall that Cl appears in the denom of that sustained turn equation. It'll be the Cl that delivers enough lift at some extreme bank theta max such that you lose no alt. This is where relative drag plays in to making or breaking the fighter. You can express, of course, the Cl as a function of the Cd0 and Cd, right? I.e., Cl = ((Cd-Cd0)/k)^.5. and THAT's ASSUMING WE'RE IN THE LINEAR CD VS CL REGION...
Since sustained turn will go up as Cl required decreases, we want to minimize (Cd-Cd0)/k
Remember that k = 1/(pi*AR*e) so that the denom will grow with AR. Leaving that aside since intuitively pleasing anyway, we can go on. Since Cd0 is a constant and Cd is always going to be greater than Cd0 at positive lift, we can say we want minimal induced drag for the necessary lift, yes? And this is why a Spitfire makes a better fighter than a barn door if both have the same wingloading and powerloading. I.e. you want something with a very healthy d(Cl)/d(Cd) as well as the two aforementioned attributes.
I'd welcome feedback on this since I kind of did it out of my head and could be all wet - but it's making sense and I'm lucid, at least right now.
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:lol that wasn't quite my intent with the pic...but yeah, your comment illustrates pricinpia #1 and #3!
BTW the pic is the F-16 demonstrating it's better turn rate and radius vs. the F-4E.
In which case, as the F-4e burns some e to get that last bit of angle, the F-16 will be able to point the nose straight up and accelerate vertically out of plane, immie, and come right back down on the now-bled f-4e stuck double-ugly pig.
It's really no contest. the 16 has it all over the Phantom except for maybe top speed. I'm sure the structural limit line on the 16 is probably better anyway so even in high-speed maneuvers probably the 16 kills it.
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One thing I forgot to add, and that people might think about a little, was the impact of drag....
You dare bring maths into this??? ;) (I know, kettle / pot thingy going on here). This is why I love this equation:
(http://brauncomustangs.org/images/eq1-1.jpg)
It's the E=mc^2 of dogfighting. So magnificently elegant, explains how the world works, but deceptively sophisticated in a brain blowing sort of way. Many a virtual pilot has gone down in flames flummoxed by this enigma (how did that Spit catch me?? where did it get all it's E??? etc.). As you elude to that "D" in the equation in itself is a tricky little devil.
To add to your discussion assuming a situation of sustained maneuvering when total drag in maneuvering exactly cancels out thrust (when Ps=0), after monkeying around with the equations turn-rate can be expressed as:
(http://brauncomustangs.org/images/eq1-4.jpg)
(turn radius is just V^2/numerator of the turn rate equation).
This confirms your view that the healthier the Cl/Cd for a maneuvering airplane, the better the Ps margin and thus the better the fighter.
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You dare bring maths into this??? ;) (I know, kettle / pot thingy going on here). This is why I love this equation:
(http://brauncomustangs.org/images/eq1-1.jpg)
It's the E=mc^2 of dogfighting. So magnificently elegant, explains how the world works, but deceptively sophisticated in a brain blowing sort of way. Many a virtual pilot has gone down in flames flummoxed by this enigma (how did that Spit catch me?? where did it get all it's E??? etc.). As you elude to that "D" in the equation in itself is a tricky little devil.
To add to your discussion assuming a situation of sustained maneuvering when total drag in maneuvering exactly cancels out thrust (when Ps=0), after monkeying around with the equations turn-rate can be expressed as:
(http://brauncomustangs.org/images/eq1-4.jpg)
(turn radius is just V^2/numerator of the turn rate equation).
This confirms your view that the healthier the Cl/Cd for a maneuvering airplane, the better the Ps margin and thus the better the fighter.
please for the sake of all humanity stop.....just stop....you are hurting my head :cry
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You dare bring maths into this??? ;) (I know, kettle / pot thingy going on here). This is why I love this equation:
(http://brauncomustangs.org/images/eq1-1.jpg)
It's the E=mc^2 of dogfighting. So magnificently elegant, explains how the world works, but deceptively sophisticated in a brain blowing sort of way. Many a virtual pilot has gone down in flames flummoxed by this enigma (how did that Spit catch me?? where did it get all it's E??? etc.). As you elude to that "D" in the equation in itself is a tricky little devil.
To add to your discussion assuming a situation of sustained maneuvering when total drag in maneuvering exactly cancels out thrust (when Ps=0), after monkeying around with the equations turn-rate can be expressed as:
(http://brauncomustangs.org/images/eq1-4.jpg)
(turn radius is just V^2/numerator of the turn rate equation).
This confirms your view that the healthier the Cl/Cd for a maneuvering airplane, the better the Ps margin and thus the better the fighter.
This confirms my view that bbs desperately need another forum entitled the Tango/Godzilla admiration society. Thanks for that more rigorous path.
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please for the sake of all humanity stop.....just stop....you are hurting my head :cry
As the Dr. says, "take two tylenol and then call me." ;) 'Course truth be known this stuff makes my head hurt too. This drawing should help us all:
(http://thetongsweb.net/images/spiral_climb2.jpg)
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This confirms my view that bbs desperately need another forum entitled the Tango/Godzilla admiration society.
:rofl
Dear God, No. It probably already exists in some sick alternate universe in which case doing that here would create a paradox collapsing the whole multiverse along with it. I don't want that on my head! It hurts enough already.