Aces High Bulletin Board
Help and Support Forums => Help and Training => Topic started by: Klam on August 29, 2011, 03:59:53 AM
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Hi, is there a way to work out the degrees per second I am achieving in a turn?
In a flat turn can I use the G meter to work it out?
I realise the g meter can't be used for this in turns with a vert component due to the gravity effect.
Maybe I am wrong in what I am looking for. Simply want to get the best out of my plane without
ruining it's performance by over-pulling in turns.
I usually ride P40e and 109e in EW
or FM2 F6F in MW
I don't go LW much
Any help appreciated
Klam
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Klam, first, let me say I have no idea how to calculate DPS. But let me save you a bunch of time by telling you that trying to fly (in combat) while calculating things like DPS, G's, and other mathematical stuff is not going to be practical while in the middle of a fight. Now I know that some people will disagree with me on this(I can already feel the wrath of the g33ks :D), but it really boils down to flying a lot and knowing your plane like the back of your hand. If you want to get the best out of your ride you have to fly it a lot and fly it to it's strengths(very basic stuff, true nonetheless). Now I'm not saying to not learn things like corner speed or stall speeds which can be useful to know; but keeping it simple and learning to recognize all the nooks of your ride (by feel) will serve you better in the long run. If you're trying to find the "edge" the best thing you can do is get a buddy on a similar skill level to 1v1 with you in the DA. This will serve you much better than solving mathematical problems while fighting.
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Messiah is spot on here, air combat is far to fluid to get into such depth during a fight :salute
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I agree, one should not be "trying to calculate best DPS or best CV turn" during a dogfight........
the better option would be to "know these things about your plane type / about other opponent plane types" long before you ever take off to fly a sortie
knowing these things can only help you be better at obtaining the best performance one can during a fight
you can find all this information, yourself, by using Badboy's AH BootStrap Calculator ( it has instructions on how to go about testing )
AH BootStrap Calculator Help & Training Thread: http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,284578.0.html
AH BootStrap Calculator Download Link: http://www.badz.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/Academy/AH_BootStrap.zip
hope this helps
TC
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Also, one could search for Spatula's AH Plane Comparison Chart that he developed..... it is another good piece of Study Material
<S>
TC
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Klam if you film while flying in circles you can time a turn for 360 degrees and figure out your degrees per second. It's easier to time the film than it is to time your turn while holding a flat turn at a given speed and G load. Finding your best sustained turn speed is a painstaking process but you can get close just by finding the speed where you can pull 2.5 G without speeding up or slowing down in a flat turn.
As a general rule if you can't pull 2.5 Gs you are going too slow. There will be many times in a slow fight where you have to pull hard to get a shot or to avoid getting shot but, as soon as you can, just ease your pull and get your speed up again.
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Finding your best sustained turn speed is a painstaking process but you can get close just by finding the speed where you can pull 2.5 G without speeding up or slowing down in a flat turn.
As a general rule if you can't pull 2.5 Gs you are going too slow.
Thank you Sir....That is what I was looking for. <S>
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Finding your best sustained turn speed is a painstaking process but you can get close just by finding the speed where you can pull 2.5 G without speeding up or slowing down in a flat turn.
Sorry I typed this in a hurry at work. I should have said the SLOWEST speed where you can pull about 2.5 Gs without slowing down.
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Turn performance is one of the least useful things to remember about your plane. The test conditions almost never apply to reality. Max speed makes a bit more sense - it is well defined and there are many scenarios where the test actually apply to reality, like long chases. When was the last time you went round and round in perfect flat circles with an opponent who kept the same speed as you?
The only turn related statistic that may be worth 1 byte of your memory storage is the minimum speed at which you can pull into blackout - above it you know that no one will pull more G than you and they will black out if they do.
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And note that the numbers you are looking for are very specific for the weight of the plane and other things, like altitude.
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Thanks for all the posts to my question.
All the opinions as to why I would ask are greatfully acknowledged.
One of my reasons was to have a better understanding of my e management.
Pulling a "near blackout" in every turn wasn't doing me any favours. Blowing too much e getting myself round after a pass left me
with a big disadvantage in a lot of my fights. I think I was rushing things a little.
I make most of my turns with some sort vertical component but I found I didn't use the e I already had effectively.
Pulling slashbacks and immel's too tight. I sacrificed the alt or speed I could have had for a snapshot on the next merge.
Conserving/spending my e a little better and using it more effectively in my limited ACM to make better angles is my goal.
The planes I like to fly don't accelerate too well so it seems a good idea to manage them better.
The G meter I was told can be used as an indicator for drag, which led to my question of degrees per second in sustained turns.
Thanks for the help
Klam
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You can always go into the TA and just do maneuvers watching the G-meter without having to worry about getting shot while doing them. It can give you a feel for the maneuver and E usage.
G-meter as a drag indicator, new one to me.
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You can always go into the TA and just do maneuvers watching the G-meter without having to worry about getting shot while doing them. It can give you a feel for the maneuver and E usage.
G-meter as a drag indicator, new one to me. :headscratch:
The G load on the wing is from the lift and with the lift you get induced drag in proportion. Some people just fly to the stall horn as if speed and G load don't matter and they end up turning slower than they would at their best sustained turn speed.
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The G load on the wing is from the lift and with the lift you get induced drag in proportion. Some people just fly to the stall horn as if speed and G load don't matter and they end up turning slower than they would at their best sustained turn speed.
Makes sense, no more head scratching :)
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Makes sense, no more head scratching :)
Personally I think of it as the turn rate meter not the drag meter. ;)
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I could be wrong but it seems to me most planes in AH perform best just as the stall horn begins to sound. That still allows you to pull into the early buffet to gain angles for a shot or to ease the bank to gain E for the vert. If you use that as a gauge there's no real thought that has to go into it during a fight as you have an audio queue.
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Am not sure if I have my sounds set right.
Am still chopping and changing sound packs.
No disrespect to the guys that made them but some planes sound like sewing machines.
Anyone recommend a good stall buffet sound?
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I could be wrong but it seems to me most planes in AH perform best just as the stall horn begins to sound. That still allows you to pull into the early buffet to gain angles for a shot or to ease the bank to gain E for the vert. If you use that as a gauge there's no real thought that has to go into it during a fight as you have an audio queue.
The stall horn tells you that you're close to the lift limit at your current speed. It doesn't tell you if you're at your best rate or smallest radius of turn.
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You can always go into the TA and just do maneuvers watching the G-meter without having to worry about getting shot while doing them. It can give you a feel for the maneuver and E usage.
G-meter as a drag indicator, new one to me.
Klam may have heard that from me,I often refer to the Gmeter as the drag meter as per FLS's post to explain induced drag. I was explaining that because we cant feel the "G" load that the G meter is the only way to tell how hard your turning. I try to show players how to unload the airframe and reduce G load to manage Energy,doing simple Cuban 8's,and have them note speed and alt as they're doing this.
When they pull too many G's their speed is reduced and the alt they climb to is lower and I explain that it's the drag from excess G's that do it,so think of the G meter as a drag meter..... Might not be 100% correct but it gets the point across.
:salute
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Yes Sir, it was you that told me that. :salute
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Yes Sir, it was you that told me that. :salute
Ya Klam I thought so when I read your post,clearly read FLS's post on induce drag as he's more correct than I am..... :o
:salute
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The stall horn tells you that you're close to the lift limit at your current speed. It doesn't tell you if you're at your best rate or smallest radius of turn.
Yes, I know that. I'm just saying that with most planes they coincidentally seem to be the same.
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Yes, I know that. I'm just saying that with most planes they coincidentally seem to be the same.
Since you hear the stall horn at various turn rates that seems unlikely. It's the stall horn and appropriate speed together that give your best sustained turn rate.
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Ya Klam I thought so when I read your post,clearly read FLS's post on induce drag as he's more correct than I am..... :o
:salute
I don't think I'm more correct it's just a different way of looking at it. Either way it suggests that you want to know how much G you can pull in a sustained turn and still maintain speed for vertical maneuvering.
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Since you hear the stall horn at various turn rates that seems unlikely. It's the stall horn and appropriate speed together that give your best sustained turn rate.
Clearly you still don't understand.
The stall horn will begin to sound at different speeds and at different turn rates in different planes. The stall horn doesn't sound at various turn rates in the same plane. Either you're entering the stall or not and it's more speed than turn dependent. It just happens the harder you turn the slower you go and the more likely you are to enter a stall. What I'm saying is that when the stall horn just begins to sound in the plane you're in you're likely at your best sustained turn rate. That's much different in a 190A-8 than it is in an A6M2.
Instantaneous turn rate is a whole different topic and generally happens well above stall speeds.
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The stall horn will begin to sound at different speeds and at different turn rates in different planes. The stall horn doesn't sound at various turn rates in the same plane. Either you're entering the stall or not and it's more speed than turn dependent. It just happens the harder you turn the slower you go and the more likely you are to enter a stall. What I'm saying is that when the stall horn just begins to sound in the plane you're in you're likely at your best sustained turn rate. That's much different in a 190A-8 than it is in an A6M2.
Instantaneous turn rate is a whole different topic and generally happens well above stall speeds.
The stall buzzer actually does sound at different turn rates (and speeds) in the same plane. All the stall horn is telling you is that you're near the lift limit, that's it. It doesn't care what speed you're at, or your turn rate, or your altitude, or G, just the critical AoA. If you're at the lift limit at 350mph you'll get a certain G which will give you a certain turn rate and radius. That's the best instantaneous turn rate/radius at that altitude, loading and speed but you can't sustain it in a level turn due to insufficient power.
If you hit the lift limit at 200mph your best instantaneous turn rate/radius will be different (lower rate, larger radius) than at 350mph due to less G available and, as 200mph will likely be above your Ps=0 line, you can't sustain that either. Your rate/radius will continue to change until you decelerate to the intersection of the lift limit and Ps=0 line at which time you can sustain a level turn at the lift limit without either climbing or descending but at even lower G than in the previous examples. This is the point where you get the aircraft's best sustained turn performance.
Note that those very different parameters (speed, turn rates, and turn radius') occur while the stall buzzer is going. You can also see that instantaneous and sustained turn rates aren't really different topics, they're the same thing just at different parts of the flight envelope. The difference between "instantaneous" and "sustained" is simply a function of power available and logically you can see that if you're willing to trade away altitude you can improve your sustained turn performance for a short while (Terra firma being the limiter). It's also obvious why a spiral climb reduces your sustained turn performance.
Hope this clarifies things a bit.
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I've been clear the whole time. I did fail to account for altitudes and things like that but my original comment was that your best turn rates occur at entry to the stall buzzer. No more no less. Sorry I'm not an aerodynamics wiz but your comments seem to confirm what I've been trying to say all along; if I want my best turn rate for the plane I'm in and the speed I'm going I want to just be entering the stall horn.
Anyway, sorry I ever posted to begin with.
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My comment was not intended as a slam on you BaldEagl. I think you understand the concept but, as is not unusual on the boards, you (and several others) have a few mistakes mixed in. Again, this isn't unusual, just trying to keep the record straight so to speak. <S>
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Sustained turn rates are pure academic exercise that bears almost no relevance to actual dogfighting. Instantaneous turn performance and turn radii will almost always be the deciding factors when the pilots are allowed to do what it takes to win instead of following a rigid theoretical flight pattern. Yet people are obsessed with sustained turns for some reason - maybe it is the unrealistic and simple geometry of sustained turns that allows them to draw simple circle pictures, while maneuvers with varying turn radii, speed and a 3rd dimension are more difficult to imagine.
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I've been clear the whole time. I did fail to account for altitudes and things like that but my original comment was that your best turn rates occur at entry to the stall buzzer. No more no less. Sorry I'm not an aerodynamics wiz but your comments seem to confirm what I've been trying to say all along; if I want my best turn rate for the plane I'm in and the speed I'm going I want to just be entering the stall horn.
Anyway, sorry I ever posted to begin with.
Once you get below your best sustained turn speed, pulling to the horn will give you your best turn for your speed but it won't be a good turn. At that point you're better off not pulling to the horn and letting your speed build until you can at least get your best sustained turn rate. Pulling to the horn above your best sustained turn speed will often give you the tactical performance you want and is usually a good choice but it isn't your best turn rate.
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Sustained turn rates are pure academic exercise that bears almost no relevance to actual dogfighting. Instantaneous turn performance and turn radii will almost always be the deciding factors when the pilots are allowed to do what it takes to win instead of following a rigid theoretical flight pattern. Yet people are obsessed with sustained turns for some reason - maybe it is the unrealistic and simple geometry of sustained turns that allows them to draw simple circle pictures, while maneuvers with varying turn radii, speed and a 3rd dimension are more difficult to imagine.
Nonsense. I agree that sustained turn rates numbers are academic in nature in that they are snapshots under specific conditions but that's true of most of the aspects of fighter performance comparison including corner, NRG addition rates, and turn rates and radius but they are hardly the "pure academic exercise" you think they are. Before flight they serve to give you an understanding of the relative merits and weaknesses between two aircraft. In flight, they are actually more "rule of thumb" than precise answers because of the dynamic nature of ACM; however, they still serve to influence your strategy and decisions in a fight. It's a poor fighter pilot who doesn't understand how to max perform his airplane in all parts of the flight envelope (what it's really capable of) and how it stacks up against an adversary. It's also a complement when a pilot is said to "fly by the numbers" in that he knows precisely how to get the maximum performance out of his plane.
You do use these numbers and concepts during a fight even if you personally don't realize you're doing it. That's how you recognize certain scenarios or conditions and say "hey, I know I can out rate the guy here," or "here's where I can gain separation because of my acceleration rate is better than his at this altitude," or "now's the time to go vertical because I know he's burned lots of E to get the angles he has". The OP's original question was really about knowing the consequences of his actions on his own aircraft, i.e., how much is a max instantaneous turn right now going to affect my NRG budget? Can I afford to trade-off altitude for a max performance turn or should I extend for separation and rebuild E? Do I have enough flight path separation to lead-turn or should I extend vertically for vertical separation? It also sounds to me like his biggest problem is he's doing precisely what you advocate, i.e., focusing on instantaneous turns and radius vice managing his E.
Nobody teaches that you "do this, this and then that and you win," not if he's a legitimate instructor. Some people do mistake discussions of things such as one and two-circle fights as a cookbook; "First add two parts G and one part speed and let simmer at full afterburner for two turns," but it's not a cookbook and it's not a "rigid theoretical flight pattern," it's a method. ACM is a dynamic and fluid environment and there is no number or method that is always right but that doesn't mean that fundamental principals don't apply. If you've ever diagrammed and analysed a fight in a debrief you'd see all sorts of instances where these allegedly "rigid theoretical flight patterns" are used. They're not all text book pretty but they're there. You'd also see most fights exhibit the use of both max sustained and instantaneous turns and you'd see where the rest of fighter performance comparison criteria such as radius and acceleration come into play.
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Mace2004, yes I am a geek too and like calculating and comparing such numbers. Still, out of all the useful statistics you can memorize, sustained turn rates compete for the last place at the bottom of the list.
I find it hard to think of a case where sustained turn rate will make a difference which is not in practice made by a correlated quantity, for example smaller turn radius. It has to be a huge advantage in turn rate to really be the most significant factor. Out of classic geometries of fights, the two circles merge is perhaps the only one where this makes a difference: i.e. the two planes pass and break each to the same side, lets say right, draw a figure 8 and merge again - the one to come 360 turn quicker will have the advantage and radius plays almost no role. However, in almost all practical cases, the first two circles will not be in sustained turns. Only if this drags on and the altitude is too low to allow vertical maneuvering, then the sustained turn rates kick in - will almost never get to that.