Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Hardware and Software => Topic started by: MaSonZ on September 05, 2011, 04:11:17 PM
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some day when i save up the money, probably not until my birthday, i wanna upgrade my card. right now i have a XFX Radeon 5750. it runs nicely, no issues, but i want a little more eye candy out of the game. finer resolution for the details and overall run it a little sooner. thoughts? preferably below $200ish would be great, but if its a couple over i can live it. just going for thoughts right now.
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it might not make a difference what you select today as probably it wont be here in 6 months :). what are your settings withing the game, maybe a better option would be to adjust them.
semp
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it might not make a difference what you select today as probably it wont be here in 6 months :). what are your settings withing the game, maybe a better option would be to adjust them.
semp
ive played with them, it runs smooth. i have all the shadows, detailed water, hi res pack, smooth shadows. other planes skins enabled, horizon enabled. all the goodies. would love to have the shadow texture size at 8192 and still run it smooth. right now that is at 1024 and im lookin about 40-50 with my other candy. could i OC things? yes, just dont feel a "need" to other then to say i did. and in AH with my performance like so, what would i gain?
i guess what i was asking in my OP was a card that would boost my performance. ive rerad a few threads about how the ATI cards have a numerical system for giving spoecs. the first number is generation, second one is its performance, etc. etc. things is, i dont wanna buy a 6770 if im not gonna gain much of a performance boost.
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it may or may not...you have a pretty new system. what mobo and ram did you put in it?
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MSI 880GM-E41 with 8GB (2X4GB) G.Skill ram. my CPU is an AMD Phenom II X6 1055T. it is all brand new, but i want more eye candy, and im addicted :cry
only thing is money is keeping me from finishing it to my liking right now :aok
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MSI 880GM-E41 with 8GB (2X4GB) G.Skill ram. my CPU is an AMD Phenom II X6 1055T. it is all brand new, but i want more eye candy, and im addicted :cry
only thing is money is keeping me from finishing it to my liking right now :aok
forget about the 6770, it will not be that much of an improvement to be wasting money on.......
keep your 5750 until you save up enough money and then purchase yourself a 6950 or 6970 ( the 2 GB version of either one )......... just make sure you have at least a 750 to 850 watt PSU minimal.........
with at least (1) 8 pin PCIe<--- can be 6+2 also for the 8 pin, and (1) 6 pin PCIe
if I remember correctly, the 6950 will use (2) 6 pin PCIe connectors, while the 6970 will use (1) 8 pin & (1) 6 pin on the PCIe power connectors.......
hope this helps
TC
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I would start making sure that your system isn't using processor power for unnecessary processes or programs.
If you have 26 icons in the system tray, then you can probably gain a ton of performance.
If your system has a scroll bar in the "processes" tab of task manager in it's default size window, them you might have some non essential stuff running.
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ive played with them, it runs smooth. i have all the shadows, detailed water, hi res pack, smooth shadows. other planes skins enabled, horizon enabled. all the goodies. would love to have the shadow texture size at 8192 and still run it smooth. right now that is at 1024 and im lookin about 40-50 with my other candy. could i OC things? yes, just dont feel a "need" to other then to say i did. and in AH with my performance like so, what would i gain?
i guess what i was asking in my OP was a card that would boost my performance. ive rerad a few threads about how the ATI cards have a numerical system for giving spoecs. the first number is generation, second one is its performance, etc. etc. things is, i dont wanna buy a 6770 if im not gonna gain much of a performance boost.
do you mean 40 to 50 fps? I think you should be maxing out your monitor refresh rate with the upgrade you got.
semp
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a 5750 is really low end, even with a meager 6870 you would see a HUGE improvement.
a AMD Phenom II X6 1055T is a 6 core CPU, you could run a 3DSmax rendering in the background and Aces high would still be smooth probably :P
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Radeon 5750 (passmark: 1502) is not really low end.
my GTS 250 (passmark: 1071) runs AH in HD, hires tex, with everything maxed (except self-shadow) and doesnt drop under 59fps. the 5750 should easily do the same.
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Radeon 5750 (passmark: 1502) is not really low end.
my GTS 250 (passmark: 1071) runs AH in HD, hires tex, with everything maxed (except self-shadow) and doesnt drop under 59fps. the 5750 should easily do the same.
Same card I'm using, GTS 250. It's been working great for over 2 years. :cheers:
Coogan
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a 5750 is really low end, even with a meager 6870 you would see a HUGE improvement.
a AMD Phenom II X6 1055T is a 6 core CPU, you could run a 3DSmax rendering in the background and Aces high would still be smooth probably :P
let me ask.. if its a low end why do people claim to play Crisis 2 and/or Black ops with it? those games are far more advanced graphically then AH....just saying.
im aware i have a 6 core CPU, but AH only uses 1 core of it.
i role with AH open, and mozilla with 6 tabs. mozilla takes upa good bit of space no doubt, but why would 5 free cores not be able to handle it?
if i could dedicate AH to a single core and isolate that core for STRICTLY AH i think i would be happening right now until i save up the money for a 6970....
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AH uses two cores (at least). You can set the affinity for each running program and choose which core they are using. Just start the program and then Ctrl+Alt+Del to get to TaskManager. Right click a program, choose Set Affinity and tick any core(s) you want to be used for that specific application. That's the way to do it in XP, probably the same in newer OSes, too.
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AH uses two cores (at least). You can set the affinity for each running program and choose which core they are using. Just start the program and then Ctrl+Alt+Del to get to TaskManager. Right click a program, choose Set Affinity and tick any core(s) you want to be used for that specific application. That's the way to do it in XP, probably the same in newer OSes, too.
uses two cores on an itnel CPU, only one on an AMD.
when i go to set affinity, it says access is denied, the operation could not be performed :headscratch:
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let me ask.. if its a low end why do people claim to play Crisis 2 and/or Black ops with it? those games are far more advanced graphically then AH....just saying.
im aware i have a 6 core CPU, but AH only uses 1 core of it.
i role with AH open, and mozilla with 6 tabs. mozilla takes upa good bit of space no doubt, but why would 5 free cores not be able to handle it?
if i could dedicate AH to a single core and isolate that core for STRICTLY AH i think i would be happening right now until i save up the money for a 6970....
A snailman would say, a good graph beats a lot of text
(http://www.hardware.fr/medias/photos_news/00/27/IMG0027222.gif)
Regarding the web browser in background, it will run fine as long as you don't have any flash videos (youtube) or apps running, these will kill your performance...don't ask me why!
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let me ask.. if its a low end why do people claim to play Crisis 2 and/or Black ops with it? those games are far more advanced graphically then AH....just saying.
im aware i have a 6 core CPU, but AH only uses 1 core of it.
i role with AH open, and mozilla with 6 tabs. mozilla takes upa good bit of space no doubt, but why would 5 free cores not be able to handle it?
if i could dedicate AH to a single core and isolate that core for STRICTLY AH i think i would be happening right now until i save up the money for a 6970....
You really do not get it. Just because a game looks pretty does not make it more graphically intense. A good flight sim will blow any game out of the water in the shear number of floating point operations needed to calculate flight.
Aces High will natively use 2 cores (messing with affinity is only for applications which are not natively multi-threaded), as long as they are Intel CPU's. On AMD CPU's, AMD provided a workaround for a bug in the design which we have to use. It disables the ability to allow the game to run on more than one core.
It does not matter how many cores a CPU has, as there is only ONE path to and from system RAM. Each CPU has to wait its turn to access system RAM, thereby reducing the performance of each core each time another core is running.
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i have youtube up, but nothing playing on it.
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i have youtube up, but nothing playing on it.
when you do that, look in your task manager under processes, if you see the flashutil.exe process running, end it.
can't understand people who think they have issues with ah performance on their systems while they have crap running in the background...run it "clean". fresh boot, kill anti-xxx programs, make sure your windows is running with the least number of processes possible, and don't be listening to mediaplayer, itunes, winamp, youtube videos, or anything but what is really necessary while playing ah. it will keep you from being foolish enough to throw money out the window on hardware you don't really need, and probably can't afford.
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^ what he said.
I get decent framerate and never get glitches or stutters, because before I fire up AH my system looks like this:
(http://i975.photobucket.com/albums/ae235/RTHolmes/AH%20stuff/tasks.png)
edit: before running FSAutostart I'm showing about 60 processes ... :uhoh
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i have youtube up, but nothing playing on it.
Thats enough to induce slowdowns in my experience.
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^ what he said.
I get decent framerate and never get glitches or stutters, because before I fire up AH my system looks like this:
(http://i975.photobucket.com/albums/ae235/RTHolmes/AH%20stuff/tasks.png)
edit: before running FSAutostart I'm showing about 60 processes ... :uhoh
My system looks like that always, without any autostart.
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I got 50 processes and have netflix playing on the other screen. I have full frames and never have stutters.
semp
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My system looks like that always, without any autostart.
thats fine for a dedicated gaming box/boot, but I have to run every single piece of software/protocol our company uses on this machine so thats not an option for me. I was going to set up a dedicated boot for AH but I already have XP Pro/Win7/OSX86/Ubuntu boots so ... FSAutostart to the rescue :aok
I got 50 processes and have netflix playing on the other screen. I have full frames and never have stutters.
good for you, even if its just down to good luck rather than good judgement :D
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I got 50 processes and have netflix playing on the other screen. I have full frames and never have stutters.
semp
No matter what you think you perceive, you have increased your chances of packet loss for the game as well as increased the randomness of the latency to the server.
You have also significantly increased the chances of application problems occurring. Just thinking of the context switching going here makes my head hurt.
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Aces High will natively use 2 cores (messing with affinity is only for applications which are not natively multi-threaded), as long as they are Intel CPU's. On AMD CPU's, AMD provided a workaround for a bug in the design which we have to use. It disables the ability to allow the game to run on more than one core.
It does not matter how many cores a CPU has, as there is only ONE path to and from system RAM. Each CPU has to wait its turn to access system RAM, there by reducing the performance of each core each time another core is running.
I am glad you posted this Skuzzy........... could you let us know if it is better to use "Dual Channel Ganged Mode" or is it better to use "Dual Channel UnGanged Mode" when setting up our system memory/computer for best performance in Aces High
I read in an online PC Review/article, that using "UnGanged" setting splits the bandwidth in half, therefore doubling throughput availability.......... something like running Ganged you have a single lane at a 128 bits, but using unganged you have double the lanes of bandwidth albeit at a lower 64 bits....... the article wrote that you increased the lanes of throughput for the memory using "unganged" * <----- I am going from memory so this is not word for word of how it read *
wish I could find that website/link where I read about this.........
which is better for Aces High?
TC
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"Ganged" versus "Unganged" is strictly an AMD architecture issue. At its simplest, the AMD Phenom dies have two memory controllers. You can make than act as one unit (ganged) or act independent of each other (unganged).
They still only have one path to/from the physical system RAM. Internally, they share access to the internal cache, so they are in the same boat as only one unit can access the cache at a time.
I would think it would be better, overall, to gang them.
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thats fine for a dedicated gaming box/boot, but I have to run every single piece of software/protocol our company uses on this machine so thats not an option for me. I was going to set up a dedicated boot for AH but I already have XP Pro/Win7/OSX86/Ubuntu boots so ... FSAutostart to the rescue :aok
Uhm, looking for excuses to get fired? Installing/playing games on work hardware :eek:
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Uhm, looking for excuses to get fired? Installing/playing games on work hardware :eek:
What's wrong with playing Aces High at work? I do. :)
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What's wrong with playing Aces High at work? I do. :)
:rofl
me too :D
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Uhm, looking for excuses to get fired? Installing/playing games on work hardware :eek:
he didn't mention the hardware belonged to the company...my hardware belongs to me, the software is provided by the company so i can do my job from home when called upon to do so.
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he didn't mention the hardware belonged to the company...my hardware belongs to me, the software is provided by the company so i can do my job from home when called upon to do so.
That's why there's something called 'work laptops'. Only a complete moron of an administrator would let any employee install game/fun/malware applications on anything that's going to be used on the company network.
I've seen a few of these along the lines.. Machine boots up 20 minutes. Slower than a turtle. User has replaced the mouse pointer with an animated kitten.. Mouse pointer regularly flashes as something (!) interrupts the processes.. Browser has at least 4 different extensions, 3 of which are from known malware/adware providers.. and that's just the visible part :D
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That's why there's something called 'work laptops'. Only a complete moron of an administrator would let any employee install game/fun/malware applications on anything that's going to be used on the company network.
I've seen a few of these along the lines.. Machine boots up 20 minutes. Slower than a turtle. User has replaced the mouse pointer with an animated kitten.. Mouse pointer regularly flashes as something (!) interrupts the processes.. Browser has at least 4 different extensions, 3 of which are from known malware/adware providers.. and that's just the visible part :D
haha that must be a REALLY old/cheap/both one. Cant even imagine, as the win xp was running fine on my old 200mhz pentium2-based machine : )
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haha that must be a REALLY old/cheap/both one. Cant even imagine, as the win xp was running fine on my old 200mhz pentium2-based machine : )
Actually it was a Core2duo 2Gig + 320gig hd laptop running windows XP.
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Uhm, looking for excuses to get fired? Installing/playing games on work hardware :eek:
Its a company box based at my home, and since I'm the sysadmin and also write our usage policies I dont anticipate too many problems ;) I even paid for the GPU myself, even though the workstation didnt have onboard vid so required a card anyway.
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What's wrong with playing Aces High at work? I do. :)
yeah but that's different you're friends with the boss. mine hates me :).
semp
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That's why there's something called 'work laptops'. Only a complete moron of an administrator would let any employee install game/fun/malware applications on anything that's going to be used on the company network.
I've seen a few of these along the lines.. Machine boots up 20 minutes. Slower than a turtle. User has replaced the mouse pointer with an animated kitten.. Mouse pointer regularly flashes as something (!) interrupts the processes.. Browser has at least 4 different extensions, 3 of which are from known malware/adware providers.. and that's just the visible part :D
i'm a systems admin and civ4 works fine on my work laptop. my work linux box has some good games on it too. if i had a work windows desktop, it would have stuff on it as well since i'm the guy who will have to reload it if it craps out.
i've cleaned up many cases of what you describe over the years, from people who made the rules everyone else was supposed to follow...3 or 4 full format 10 hour long, reinstalls and some missing "important" files gets the message across fairly well.
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let me ask.. if its a low end why do people claim to play Crisis 2 and/or Black ops with it? those games are far more advanced graphically then AH....just saying.
im aware i have a 6 core CPU, but AH only uses 1 core of it.
i role with AH open, and mozilla with 6 tabs. mozilla takes upa good bit of space no doubt, but why would 5 free cores not be able to handle it?
if i could dedicate AH to a single core and isolate that core for STRICTLY AH i think i would be happening right now until i save up the money for a 6970....
ehh no
i can play black ops with a 60fps rate all maxed out but aces high all maxed i got low-high 30's so black ops is not near aces high grafics becasue of the hugeness of aces high and the tiny little maps of black ops
plus in black ops anything pass 50 feet out side of the "map" is a 2d shape and is a simple painting and has no shadow to it. ace high is not this way.
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ehh no
i can play black ops with a 60fps rate all maxed out but aces high all maxed i got low-high 30's so black ops is not near aces high grafics becasue of the hugeness of aces high and the tiny little maps of black ops
plus in black ops anything pass 50 feet out side of the "map" is a 2d shape and is a simple painting and has no shadow to it. ace high is not this way.
really? havent played black ops or Crisis 2 ion the PC, but that is interesting to know. :rock
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ehh no
i can play black ops with a 60fps rate all maxed out but aces high all maxed i got low-high 30's so black ops is not near aces high grafics becasue of the hugeness of aces high and the tiny little maps of black ops
Actually advanced game engines can produce blistering speeds on maps much larger than AH2's. The only issue is most likely that HTC has no resources nor financial reasoning to build such an engine.
I know Skuzzy will most likely jump immediately on the comment. I've seen enough software projects where 1 team says something can't be done while the other team produces the scope needed, and more with ease and performance.
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Actually advanced game engines can produce blistering speeds on maps much larger than AH2's. The only issue is most likely that HTC has no resources nor financial reasoning to build such an engine.
I know Skuzzy will most likely jump immediately on the comment. I've seen enough software projects where 1 team says something can't be done while the other team produces the scope needed, and more with ease and performance.
there you go again ripley, completely out in left field and the play is at second base. name one game that has a map fully rendered at more than 500 yards.
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there you go again ripley, completely out in left field and the play is at second base. name one game that has a map fully rendered at more than 500 yards.
Are you claiming AH2 renders maps *fully* at more than 500 yards? Every game has LOD levels which hide the smallest details at beyond what can be seen on end-users monitor.
So if AH2 indeed renders all of the area at full detail, that's nothing but poor optimization. IIRC some early versions of AH2 suffered from very poor performance (slideshow) because some ground clutter was rendered to far and beyond and was later optimized.
In fact I know AH2 has strict LOD rules in place. It can be seen with 'detail' sliders in settings and the way that distant aircraft location information is updated in slow intervals.
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Actually advanced game engines can produce blistering speeds on maps much larger than AH2's. The only issue is most likely that HTC has no resources nor financial reasoning to build such an engine.
I know Skuzzy will most likely jump immediately on the comment. I've seen enough software projects where 1 team says something can't be done while the other team produces the scope needed, and more with ease and performance.
It is not the size of the map. It is the view distance. We are always looking for better technology to make things run better. No one, we are aware of, has come up with a terrain engine that can handle our view distances without choking most computers.
If you have first hand experience with a terrain engine, which allows a 34 mile (or greater) diameter view distance, without choking on a 2Ghz, dual core CPU with 2GB of RAM and an Intel video chip, please feel free to post it. We would be happy to look at it.
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It is not the size of the map. It is the view distance. We are always looking for better technology to make things run better. No one, we are aware of, has come up with a terrain engine that can handle our view distances without choking most computers.
If you have first hand experience with a terrain engine, which allows a 34 mile (or greater) diameter view distance, without choking on a 2Ghz, dual core CPU with 2GB of RAM and an Intel video chip, please feel free to post it. We would be happy to look at it.
Obviously your hardware requirements are very tight. I was thinking something of the likes of frostbite 2 engine but that falls far beyond those specs.
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Actually advanced game engines can produce blistering speeds on maps much larger than AH2's. The only issue is most likely that HTC has no resources nor financial reasoning to build such an engine.
I know Skuzzy will most likely jump immediately on the comment. I've seen enough software projects where 1 team says something can't be done while the other team produces the scope needed, and more with ease and performance.
agree with skuzzy says belowIt is not the size of the map. It is the view distance. We are always looking for better technology to make things run better. No one, we are aware of, has come up with a terrain engine that can handle our view distances without choking most computers.
If you have first hand experience with a terrain engine, which allows a 34 mile (or greater) diameter view distance, without choking on a 2Ghz, dual core CPU with 2GB of RAM and an Intel video chip, please feel free to post it. We would be happy to look at it.
now i have modded black ops and i can tell you, they use a VERY VERY VERY basic engine. black ops has bout one or two big maps. and there engine is so basic that they have no building's past a like 1/5 of the map or the game would freeze and you had to CTRL ALT DEL out. after a patch black ops disallowed custom maps because they can be to big...
in aces high we can make our own maps with huge distance,s and in any shape or form.... try that in any other game and prepare for a "(insert game here) .exe has stoped responding.
aces high 2 IMHO is THE best game Ive ever played in term of not only game play but what you can do.
Obviously your hardware requirements are very tight. I was thinking something of the likes of frostbite 2 engine but that falls far beyond those specs.
now idk about the new never before played frostbite two engine. but frostbite one is the same way as black ops or any other game besides aces high for that matter. past a certain point everything is simply 2d shape no shadow just a painting, the best thing about frostbite is that you can simply blow stuff up. not one frostbite 1 game has a 34 mile view all the way around like aces high i think the max was like 26 miles long and only 6 miles wide. this was a modded map that someone made for BC2 and it was the max frostbite would do, and even then it had rendering problems.
aces high has a engine that is advaced in a way that its huge, okish graphics's but a single core CPU and no vid card (my old computer) can run at a solid 30 fps at minum graphics's.
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agree with skuzzy says below now i have modded black ops and i can tell you, they use a VERY VERY VERY basic engine. black ops has bout one or two big maps. and there engine is so basic that they have no building's past a like 1/5 of the map or the game would freeze and you had to CTRL ALT DEL out. after a patch black ops disallowed custom maps because they can be to big...
in aces high we can make our own maps with huge distance,s and in any shape or form.... try that in any other game and prepare for a "(insert game here) .exe has stoped responding.
aces high 2 IMHO is THE best game Ive ever played in term of not only game play but what you can do.
now idk about the new never before played frostbite two engine. but frostbite one is the same way as black ops or any other game besides aces high for that matter. past a certain point everything is simply 2d shape no shadow just a painting, the best thing about frostbite is that you can simply blow stuff up. not one frostbite 1 game has a 34 mile view all the way around like aces high i think the max was like 26 miles long and only 6 miles wide. this was a modded map that someone made for BC2 and it was the max frostbite would do, and even then it had rendering problems.
aces high has a engine that is advaced in a way that its huge, okish graphics's but a single core CPU and no vid card (my old computer) can run at a solid 30 fps at minum graphics's.
FB2 is known for it's ability to run huge maps and long view distances utilizing advanced realtime effects while at it. The developer of black ops may have set limitations on the implementation in order to make the game lighter - it doesn't mean that the engine wouldn't be able to handle it.
Let's take WOT for example - it uses BigWorld engine and is limited to 1kmx1km maps. The BigWorld engine can however handle much larger maps, it was developer decision to limit max map size to 1x1km.
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One thing to keep in mind when looking at game engine implementation in finished products:
Titles like black ops are multi platform. Most likely it's mainly developed for consoles and then ported to PC. Consoles have a very limited hardware (XBOX for example has memory as low as 512Mb, graphics frame buffer 10Mb eDram/512mb shared/Ati xenos which is similar to ATI Radeon X1900/X1950 etc.) which equals to a 5-7 year old gaming PC and this creates great big limitations on everything that console games can do, which then unfortunately gimps the PC versions also.
Many current games do not get a native PC version and it shows heavily in the end result. So if BO is limited to strict LOD/view distances it's most likely because the ancient console hardware just can't cut the mustard.
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so let me get this straight ripley, you think it would be a good idea for htc to use a game engine that would eliminate the use of windows xp, require 4 gigabytes of ram, a quad core processor and at least 800 megabytes of video memory to function properly...to gain nothing more than a highly destructible environment. i guess you don't remember the outcry that occurred with the last graphics update that was made, or the plethora of outcries since with every update released.
aside from cross platform (no mac os) porting capabilities, the destructible environment and the implementation of screen space ambient occlusion (some sort of new adaptive pixel shader) are the selling points.
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you guys need to step back and stop arguing over something that has nothing to do with the op.
semp
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you guys need to step back and stop arguing over something that has nothing to do with the op.
semp
been thinking this... but its kind of interesting to a degree.
a "destroyable" eye candy could be nice to a degree... but then it rule out any chance of those without the money or time to put a custom rig together number 1, and 2 it would be boring after a while, what could be destroyed that would add spice to the game? trees and bushes? fun... if we could drive through the bushes and hedges though it would be more worth the time. back to point one with that though im sure.
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See Rule #4
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"Ganged" versus "Unganged" is strictly an AMD architecture issue. At its simplest, " the AMD Phenom dies" .............. .<snip>
Freudian Slip??
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Freudian Slip??
if anything maybe a typo whether he meant dies or dyes, I would assume
these cpus have multiple dyes/dies on them.........
we all know Skuzzy prefers to work with Intel,so no reason for him to make a typo coming by way of subconcious feelings.. hehe
hope this helps
TC
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if anything maybe a typo whether he meant dies or dyes, I would assume
these cpus have multiple dyes/dies on them.........
we all know Skuzzy prefers to work with Intel,so no reason for him to make a typo coming by way of subconcious feelings.. hehe
hope this helps
TC
That is quite incorrect. If you recall when Intel made the Prescott core CPU's I was vehemently against those things. They were the worst CPU's foisted on the general public.
I have no personal preference, except to whatever happens to work best with the game, at any given moment.
Just FYI, "die" is the correct term for the silicon wafer.
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That is quite incorrect. If you recall when Intel made the Prescott core CPU's I was vehemently against those things. They were the worst CPU's foisted on the general public.
I have no personal preference, except to whatever happens to work best with the game, at any given moment.
Just FYI, "die" is the correct term for the silicon wafer.
oh yes sir, I do recall those prescotts....... those were them CPU with a free Sonya, weren't they
I actually meant you have less trouble with Intel based systems on average concerning Aces High, being the reason you prefer them..... I was not implying that you are biased toward Intel in any way over other brands..... sorry if I misled anyone.....
anyways......... is all good
TC
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My general issues with AMD (multi-threading bug aside) has been the motherboard chipsets. I got to discuss this with a wheel at AMD once and he lamented the same problem. Intel has always been ahead of the game due to the chipset support they provide.
I was hoping when AMD acquired ATI, they would really jump in behind the ATI chipset and fully develope it. Seems that chipset has been floundering about since the acquisition.