Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Guppy35 on September 16, 2011, 06:50:19 PM
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Apparently Jimmy Leeward and his 51 Galloping Ghost. Not good :(
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What? Nooo :cry ... links?
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Dam! Anywhere to get additional info?
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:cry Man what is with this year and classic warbird crashes!?!?!? Sad to see history go down in flames like that, and I sure hope everyone is alright. :pray
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What? Nooo :cry ... links?
Google turned up this, http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/44556695/ns/us_news-life/t/report-plane-crashes-stands-reno-air-races/
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Live coverage here:
http://www.mynews4.com/content/asseenonnews4/live/default.aspx (http://www.mynews4.com/content/asseenonnews4/live/default.aspx)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rCNePeKn3Tg (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rCNePeKn3Tg)
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another piece of unreplaceable history lost. :mad:
ive heard hundreds were injured aswell, this isnt looking good. not one bit.
:salute
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:pray
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:cry Man what is with this year and classic warbird crashes!?!?!? Sad to see history go down in flames like that, and I sure hope everyone is alright. :pray
Shut up. It's a hunk of metal, that's all. This isn't a good one, though after being sent a video it isn't nearly what I thought when I first was told what had happened by those who are there.
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:pray
terrible, just terrible
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Several dead, It landed in the box center of the stands.
http://www.krcrtv.com/news/29211467/detail.html
:pray
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another piece of unreplaceable history lost. :mad:
ive heard hundreds were injured aswell, this isnt looking good. not one bit.
:salute
It's an airplane. The history is with the man. If you are talking about Jimmy Leeward and those who lost their lives then I agree. if you are talking about the airplane, you miss the point.
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Wished I hadn't seen that carnage.
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It's an airplane. The history is with the man. If you are talking about Jimmy Leeward and those who lost their lives then I agree. if you are talking about the airplane, you miss the point.
i wasnt talking about the airplane, the men who flew them are what really made history. but the plane is a good chunk of history that went down with him sadly.
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another piece of unreplaceable history lost. :mad:
BS statement. It's a highly modified race plane....nothing to do with history.
What is tragic is the loss of life.
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BS statement. It's a highly modified race plane....nothing to do with history.
i wasnt talking about the plane. human life is unreplaceable.
might wanna read my post that i put up before you replied...
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Jimmy Leeward was a good friend to the warbird community and one of the "good guys". I am sad beyond what words can describe. I last chatted with Jimmy in Colorado Springs back in March or April. It was a good talk and as always, I enjoyed his company immensely.
Jimmy wasn't known as "Smiling Jimmy" for nothing. I will definitely miss him.
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This is truly horrific. One of my greatest fears is to be in a crippled aircraft, diving for the ground, with no hope of recovery. I can only imagine how awful it would be to die like that. My prayers to the family of the pilot and those injured on the ground.
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It's a hunk of metal now, but it was a piece of art before it hit the ground. It looked like it might be pilot error, maybe a medical condition, Stroke, Heart attack, We'll never know. The owners of these planes are getting old and will not be replaced. It's sad, and says a lot about the US of today.
Maybe he was flying over the 30 HR a week limit imposed by the Unions and fell asleep. No, the pilot was an owner operator and was jacked up to the Hilt and racing hard, Making his investment stand out for the fans.
Very sad day.
I hope HB was at home.
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this might just end the air races. sad thing to lose a life, no matter the conditions.
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It's a hunk of metal now, but it was a piece of art before it hit the ground. It looked like it might be pilot error, maybe a medical condition, Stroke, Heart attack, We'll never know. The owners of these planes are getting old and will not be replaced. It's sad, and says a lot about the US of today.
Maybe he was flying over the 30 HR a week limit imposed by the Unions and fell asleep. No, the pilot was an owner operator and was jacked up to the Hilt and racing hard, Making his investment stand out for the fans.
Very sad day.
I hope HB was at home.
HB is fine.
Your other statements are foolish, ill informed and completely baseless with regard to reality.
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I'm told from those that were there that something came off the airplane before control was lost. Perhaps the elevator trim tab. Supposedly also he declared an emergency earlier on but which heat and why wasn't made clear to me. That isn't uncommon for abnormalities of any sort when racing.
If the elevator trim tab goes, then it's not inconceivable that as it looked in a couple different videos, pitch authority could be lost and without it pushing against the pull force a huge elevator deflection for that airspeed could be encountered. The video angles I've seen show an abrupt pitch up and an attempt at recovery by rolling the aircraft. What control authority was lost, how much G force and any number of other things should have been recorded via the real time telemetry which this aircraft had I understand. That is a huge help to determining the cause, though not much consolation for those killed, hurt and affected in this.
This man wasn't "hot dogging" for anyone. No Reno racer does. I don't think you'd find anyone more experienced as a Racer than Mr. Leeward and the information available points to a seemingly unrecoverable mechanical failure. That's all I have to say. Tailwinds.
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Foolish?
Glad you responded, that post was for you.
Not to make light of this situation, the pilot died doing what he loved and invested his time and money in.
I'm happy he passed doing what he loved. I feel for the fans that got hurt, but, they know their attending an event with airplanes racing overhead.
Name calling... Is that all you got?
Take it easy on me me Golfer, I'm outta practice.
I Fabricate the metal for several aircrafts and take offense when it called a hunk of metal. We would never send a pilot up in a hunk of metal.
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Theres some pictures coming out on Yahoo news, couple of the plane before it crashed.
http://news.yahoo.com/photos/air-race-crash-in-reno-1316226189-slideshow/# (http://news.yahoo.com/photos/air-race-crash-in-reno-1316226189-slideshow/#)
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This photo speaks volumes.
(http://www.salon.com/wires/image.html?image=64041c61-e636-4663-9c66-1ec9952e87ba@news.ap.org.jpg)
Take notice of the elevator.
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I see it.
Mechanical failure.
Apology to Golfer.
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This photo speaks volumes.
(http://www.salon.com/wires/image.html?image=64041c61-e636-4663-9c66-1ec9952e87ba@news.ap.org.jpg)
Take notice of the elevator.
Christ, you can even see the flutter in the frame from the trim tab.
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another piece of unreplaceable history lost. :mad:
ive heard hundreds were injured aswell, this isnt looking good. not one bit.
:salute
More planes have been restored because of air racing than any other reason.
There are more flying p51s now than there were 20 years ago.
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More planes have been restored because of air racing than any other reason.
There are more flying p51s now than there were 20 years ago.
im not talking about the damn plane guys!!! im talking about jimmy! who cares about the plane?! if jimmy had survived, somehow along with all the others, then its just a lost plane. easily replaceable!
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Also this photo:
(http://www.ksl.com/emedia/apimage/96254e80-3f4b-447f-98f5-3e82491e8a7f.jpg?filter=ksl/pgallery)
Notice the tailwheel came down suggesting high G forces, and no helmet is visible. Perhaps he blacked out from the plane pitching up violently after the trim tab separated.
Aside from the speculation, what a terrible day for all involved. There was a local fatal crash here yesterday too.
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This link was posted on another forum regarding another racing Mustang that lost an elevator trim tab causing a 10 G pitch up. This was back in 1998. Pilot survived and got the plane down.
http://www.warbird.com/voodoo.html
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I wonder if anybody has ever tried to convert one these unlimited race planes to a hydraulic assisted flying tail, at the speeds they go it seems like it would be safer.
This link was posted on another forum regarding another racing Mustang that lost an elevator trim tab causing a 10 G pitch up. This was back in 1998. Pilot survived and got the plane down.
http://www.warbird.com/voodoo.html
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Horrible tragedy - and kudos to the pilot for redirecting away from the grandstand (as eyewitnesses report happened).
_____
Also have to say kudos to this community. Read about the disaster in the news, but no one had any information about what may have led to the disaster. My next step was to come here, and true to form the AH aviation community had insights (and photos) I couldn't find elsewhere. <S>
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RIP to those who passed yesterday. May the injured recover quickly and fully.
:pray
I'm going to let the folks wo do the investigations for a living provide the information regarding the cause of the crash.
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Looks like a pretty violent crash
(http://static.iltalehti.fi/ulkomaat/lentonaytosetuMP_503_ul.jpg)
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http://www.cnn.com/video/?/video/us/2011/09/17/von-air-show-crash.dwilson&iref=NS1
scary film here.
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http://www.cnn.com/video/?/video/us/2011/09/17/von-air-show-crash.dwilson&iref=NS1
scary film here.
Say that film earlier... it's so surreal to hear and watch that impact...
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It's a hunk of metal now, but it was a piece of art before it hit the ground. It looked like it might be pilot error, maybe a medical condition, Stroke, Heart attack, We'll never know. The owners of these planes are getting old and will not be replaced. It's sad, and says a lot about the US of today.
Maybe he was flying over the 30 HR a week limit imposed by the Unions and fell asleep. No, the pilot was an owner operator and was jacked up to the Hilt and racing hard, Making his investment stand out for the fans.
Very sad day.
You're a CM? This is some of the most morally bankrupt syntax one can muster. "It's a hunk of metal now". You make me sick and it goes to show in what direction this game has headed.
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You're a CM? This is some of the most morally bankrupt syntax one can muster. "It's a hunk of metal now". You make me sick and it goes to show in what direction this game has headed.
The plane is not important, the lives that were involved are the important factor here.
I could care less about a P-51 crashing, it is a hunk of metal, and that's all it is...Human lives are far more important than any warbird.
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The plane is not important, the lives that were involved are the important factor here.
I could care less about a P-51 crashing, it is a hunk of metal, and that's all it is...Human lives are far more important than any warbird.
So making unsubstantiated statements of "pilot error, stroke, slams at Unions, says a lot about the US of today", is "the humane importance"? Got it, but it has no bearing of the fact that the plane suffered a catastrophic failure. The plane pitched up, rolled inverted and went nose first, this was told from a pylon judge at the races.
You also point out the obvious, I'm talking about the unnecessary crap that was contained in that post. Also it was a heavily modified and updated 51 and far from the 44-15651 serial number it was given. That post wasn't a "Human life is more important" post, but you are pretending that it is/was.
Take someone like Bodhi, who met with him several times and wasn't "talked down too" by Leeward. Jimmy seemed like he was just one of the guys and no doubt tried to clear his plane from the spectators. Human aspects are always at the forefront in my mind.
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was gonna post but...... :noid
damn.....6 billion people.......all im gonna say.
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So making statements of "pilot error, stroke, pitched up, says a lot about the US of today", is acceptable? Got it, but it has no bearing of the fact that the plane suffered a catastrophic failure. The plane pitched up, rolled inverted and went nose first, this was told from a pylon judge at the races.
You also point out the obvious, I'm talking about the unnecessary crap that was contained in that post. Also it was a heavily modified and updated 51 and far from the 44-15651 serial number it was given.
That post wasn't a "Human life is more important" post, but you are pretending that it is/was.
You are putting words into my mouth that I never stated. All that you said was:
"It's a hunk of metal now". You make me sick and it goes to show in what direction this game has headed.
That is what I was responding to. If you can not control your emotions and reasonably respond like a big boy. Take a seat.
I totally agree with you, I may have miss understood your response and I apologize for mine. But really, be mature at your responses...
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You are putting words into my mouth that I never stated. All that you said was:
"It's a hunk of metal now". You make me sick and it goes to show in what direction this game has headed.
That is what I was responding to. If you can not control your emotions and reasonably respond like a big boy. Take a seat.
Nice deflection.
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Why didn't the crash end up in a fireball? I read that some people have been splashed with fuel near the crash site. Anyway, it could have been much worse, as bad is it already it right now. However, I doubt given what we know that the pilot was even aware that he was about to slam straight down into the crowd with such G forces he was fighting against. Very sad event. My thoughts to victims and families, many of whom will end up missing arms and legs. Looking forward to the investigation results. Someone will be to blame for this as it looks like a recurring incident from the link guppy posted.
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Why didn't the crash end up in a fireball? I read that some people have been splashed with fuel near the crash site. Anyway, it could have been much worse, as bad is it already it right now. However, I doubt given what we know that the pilot was even aware that he was about to slam straight down into the crowd with such G forces he was fighting against. Very sad event. My thoughts to victims and families, many of whom will end up missing arms and legs. Looking forward to the investigation results. Someone will be to blame for this as it looks like a recurring incident from the link guppy posted.
I don't think Mr. Leeward was awake when he hit the ground. An instant onset of 10G's (I was told the airplane had on board telemetry, so we may know what it actually was) when you're not ready for it is no laughing matter. With that much force it can end up pushing you down in the cockpit, which happened to the pilot flying Voodoo back in the 90's when the same thing happened. You can't see the pilot in the profile shots of the aircraft and even though it's a modified canopy you have to be pretty well bent over to have your whole head below the canopy out of view.
With that trim tab gone and flying in excess of 400 Knots you're looking at 200-225lbs of force needed to even move the stick. Even if you were able to stay awake your only hope for a good outcome is to have the airplane climb skyward like Voodoo in the 90's. That hundreds of people were not killed in this accident is huge stroke of good fortune in a very dark situation.
Your last line is in poor taste.
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Well said, Golfer. A rapid onset of high G without knowing it's coming and no anti-G equipment can result in GLOC incapacitation.
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I thought it was medical from the way I had read it, finally worked up the courage to watch the video this morning. Nasty and fast, not the way I thought it was when I read about it. Seeing those photos obviously confirms it.
I posted this in squad and might as well here too as a testament to the character of the departed pilot. Years ago my father had just purchased a plane in FL and was returning it home with another family member when weather made them stop at a small grass field. A man came running up after they landed and offered them some hangar space for the storm, wouldn't take no for an offer. He moved several of his own planes around just to fit in the plane of someone he didn't even know. He took the pilots to lunch while the storm passed and offered his house as a place to stay for the night if needed, not allowing them to contribute a cent for the meal or the hospitality. The man of course turned out to be Jimmy Leeward. The aviation and racing community has lost a good one. :salute
And not just to him, but anyone who was injured in this tragic accident. Not a good day.
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I don't think Mr. Leeward was awake when he hit the ground. An instant onset of 10G's (I was told the airplane had on board telemetry, so we may know what it actually was) when you're not ready for it is no laughing matter. With that much force it can end up pushing you down in the cockpit, which happened to the pilot flying Voodoo back in the 90's when the same thing happened. You can't see the pilot in the profile shots of the aircraft and even though it's a modified canopy you have to be pretty well bent over to have your whole head below the canopy out of view.
With that trim tab gone and flying in excess of 400 Knots you're looking at 200-225lbs of force needed to even move the stick. Even if you were able to stay awake your only hope for a good outcome is to have the airplane climb skyward like Voodoo in the 90's. That hundreds of people were not killed in this accident is huge stroke of good fortune in a very dark situation.
Your last line is in poor taste.
Excellent post(s) Golfer.
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I thought it was medical from the way I had read it, finally worked up the courage to watch the video this morning. Nasty and fast, not the way I thought it was when I read about it. Seeing those photos obviously confirms it.
I posted this in squad and might as well here too as a testament to the character of the departed pilot. Years ago my father had just purchased a plane in FL and was returning it home with another family member when weather made them stop at a small grass field. A man came running up after they landed and offered them some hangar space for the storm, wouldn't take no for an offer. He moved several of his own planes around just to fit in the plane of someone he didn't even know. He took the pilots to lunch while the storm passed and offered his house as a place to stay for the night if needed, not allowing them to contribute a cent for the meal or the hospitality. The man of course turned out to be Jimmy Leeward. The aviation and racing community has lost a good one. :salute
And not just to him, but anyone who was injured in this tragic accident. Not a good day.
It would be difficult to know the real cause a day after and before the investiagation is competed as opposed to the media which rarely get the facts correct in the rush to get a story out.
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Well said, Golfer. A rapid onset of high G without knowing it's coming and no anti-G equipment can result in GLOC incapacitation.
Very true..
I was on the phone this afternoon with a friend who raced a P-51 and performed at airshows. He mentioned the Voodoo incident and stated that at 450 mph, the P-51 is heavily trimmed nose down to offset the tendency of the nose to come up. The loss of a trim tab will induce a sudden pitch up, sufficient to over-stress the airframe and induce GLOC. It's especially problematic for a pilot in his mid 70s, who will not have the conditioning of a 30-year old F-15 pilot. Moreover, you have absolutely no time to prepare yourself for the onset of g loading. A younger, more fit pilot may have not GLOC'd, but it's not likely. Hannah was young and in pretty good shape and he was out for more than long enough to have crashed.
I'll wager every P-51 racer will have its tab hinges inspected immediately. Indeed, perhaps the structure needs to be reinforced for racing. I would not be surprised is mandatory inspections were ordered for all racers in the unlimited class.
I've heard many comments made in the media about how the pilot managed to avoid the crowd... He didn't avoid anything, he was out like a light. It was simply good fortune or maybe Angels that steered the Mustang away from the general grandstand.
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Widewing is very wise in this situation.
Jim was a pretty good guy and will be missed in more than just the racing community. I build mustangs for a living (more recently Corsairs) and one thing that I (we) noticed is that he always remembered people and knew their names. Today feels a bit like the day after Gerry Beck died, both were cut from the same cloth, the aviation community is less today without them and their attitudes.
I, along with the rest of 74's crew are gonna go get really drunk now, i will repost on Monday. Until then, please keep the speculation to minimum.
thanks
pete
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I don't think Mr. Leeward was awake when he hit the ground. An instant onset of 10G's (I was told the airplane had on board telemetry, so we may know what it actually was) when you're not ready for it is no laughing matter. With that much force it can end up pushing you down in the cockpit, which happened to the pilot flying Voodoo back in the 90's when the same thing happened. You can't see the pilot in the profile shots of the aircraft and even though it's a modified canopy you have to be pretty well bent over to have your whole head below the canopy out of view.
With that trim tab gone and flying in excess of 400 Knots you're looking at 200-225lbs of force needed to even move the stick. Even if you were able to stay awake your only hope for a good outcome is to have the airplane climb skyward like Voodoo in the 90's. That hundreds of people were not killed in this accident is huge stroke of good fortune in a very dark situation.
Your last line is in poor taste.
When people die, everything I say has to be triple-quad checked as to not offend anyone. I don't have that luxury as i'm not good at discussing such subjects. You know where I stand on this, I don't have to prove it. If finding... no not finding; if speculating on a culprit is bad taste, so be it and let me reassert my respect about the victims(+collateral) of this incident who need no explanations at all (sarcasm). I know we must resist our impatience to know the facts but I still believe that someone has not corrected enough the trim tab fault and if any such recommendation has been made on the matter.
As for the rest, what you said pretty much sums up the preliminary theory of what really might have happened. Do you think the reason the plane veered down after rolling inverted is because it snap stalled momentarily until the pilot had time to react (if he even could)? Like Puma just said, anyone claiming the pilot tried to avoid the crowd is just trying to comfort the majority who know nothing about G forces and have the power to dictate if such races can continue unabated. Now I was about to say something I'm not sure if it is 100% politically correct politician speech, so I will step away.
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You're all idiots for arguing here.
Every one of you.
Say your condolences and GTFO. Every statement in harassment to one or another is disrespectful to lives
lost and injured.
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I don't think he stalled after seeing this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f7SdkIWQwjc (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f7SdkIWQwjc)
You're all idiots for arguing here.
Every one of you.
Say your condolences and GTFO. Every statement in harassment to one or another is disrespectful to lives
lost and injured.
This is not a tread about paying respect to the victims, we all do it by default and take it as such. I'm sure you know everyone here pays his respect to them, either publicly or personally; else he is a monster. Arguing about what happened is the least we can do on this forum.
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Awful situation. Godspeed.
Thank goodness that it appears that there was no fire to go with the impact, could have been a whole lot worse.
You're all idiots for arguing here.
Every one of you.
Say your condolences and GTFO. Every statement in harassment to one or another is disrespectful to lives
lost and injured.
Well said.
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You're all idiots for arguing here.
Every one of you.
Say your condolences and GTFO. Every statement in harassment to one or another is disrespectful to lives
lost and injured.
+1
Rest in peace Mr. Leeward and the eight other persons killed.
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+1
Rest in peace Mr. Leeward and the eight other persons killed.
Indeed :salute
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I don't think Mr. Leeward was awake when he hit the ground. An instant onset of 10G's (I was told the airplane had on board telemetry, so we may know what it actually was) when you're not ready for it is no laughing matter. With that much force it can end up pushing you down in the cockpit, which happened to the pilot flying Voodoo back in the 90's when the same thing happened. You can't see the pilot in the profile shots of the aircraft and even though it's a modified canopy you have to be pretty well bent over to have your whole head below the canopy out of view.
With that trim tab gone and flying in excess of 400 Knots you're looking at 200-225lbs of force needed to even move the stick. Even if you were able to stay awake your only hope for a good outcome is to have the airplane climb skyward like Voodoo in the 90's. That hundreds of people were not killed in this accident is huge stroke of good fortune in a very dark situation.
Your last line is in poor taste.
By the looks of this photo you are right about the G's pushing him down. If witnesses are correct it was amazing that he did get enough lift in the last seconds to get the plane away from the bleachers. RIP Mr. Leeward and the others that were involved.
(http://l.yimg.com/bt/api/res/1.2/jYoRbpYcu0h5Bi8ExcHFzQ--/YXBwaWQ9eW5ld3M7Zmk9aW5zZXQ7aD02MzA7cT04NTt3PTQ3OA--/http://media.zenfs.com/en_us/News/ap_webfeeds/23c6ee56ec89fb14f80e6a706700459c.jpg)
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This puts AH damage modeling and real life into perspective. In AH you can fly 400mph with the whole left elevator missing where in real life the loss of only a tab does this.
One can only wonder how small the hits that were required to take down a plane in reality sometimes were.
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You're all idiots for arguing here.
Every one of you.
Say your condolences and GTFO. Every statement in harassment to one or another is disrespectful to lives
lost and injured.
Name calling is uncalled for, sir. If you don't like the posts, you always have the choice to not open the thread.
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If witnesses are correct it was amazing that he did get enough lift in the last seconds to get the plane away from the bleachers. RIP Mr. Leeward and the others that were involved.
(http://l.yimg.com/bt/api/res/1.2/jYoRbpYcu0h5Bi8ExcHFzQ--/YXBwaWQ9eW5ld3M7Zmk9aW5zZXQ7aD02MzA7cT04NTt3PTQ3OA--/http://media.zenfs.com/en_us/News/ap_webfeeds/23c6ee56ec89fb14f80e6a706700459c.jpg)
A couple of things to note... Notice in the photo you posted that Mr. Leeland is not visible in the photo. In other photos, he is clearly slumped against the instrument panel. If he can't see out, he can't know where the aircraft is pointed. Leeland is obviously unconscious, due to GLOC. As several of us have mentioned, missing the grandstand was pure luck, or fate, or some higher power at work.
Note also that the g loading was severe enough to overpower the hydraulic cylinder and extend the tail wheel.... My understanding is that it requires g loading in excess of 9g to do that. So, this is strong evidence that Leeland was subjected to g forces of at least 9g, and very likely higher than that. Any pilot, especially a 74-year old pilot, will GLOC under that loading. He was unconscious immediately after the pitch up and the aircraft went where it did due to factors like torque, aileron and rudder trim.
I believe that the NTSB will rule this accident a result of a catastrophic mechanical failure, probably resulting from undetected fatigue of the trim tab hardware and/or mounting structure.
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Jimmy Leeward discussing the plane called “The Galloping Ghost".
http://www.theoaklandpress.com/articles/2011/09/18/news/doc4e74f9207b912230146063.txt (http://www.theoaklandpress.com/articles/2011/09/18/news/doc4e74f9207b912230146063.txt)
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:pray
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A couple of things to note... Notice in the photo you posted that Mr. Leeland is not visible in the photo. In other photos, he is clearly slumped against the instrument panel. If he can't see out, he can't know where the aircraft is pointed. Leeland is obviously unconscious, due to GLOC. As several of us have mentioned, missing the grandstand was pure luck, or fate, or some higher power at work.
Note also that the g loading was severe enough to overpower the hydraulic cylinder and extend the tail wheel.... My understanding is that it requires g loading in excess of 9g to do that. So, this is strong evidence that Leeland was subjected to g forces of at least 9g, and very likely higher than that. Any pilot, especially a 74-year old pilot, will GLOC under that loading. He was unconscious immediately after the pitch up and the aircraft went where it did due to factors like torque, aileron and rudder trim.
I believe that the NTSB will rule this accident a result of a catastrophic mechanical failure, probably resulting from undetected fatigue of the trim tab hardware and/or mounting structure.
I agree completely with this assesment. If you look at the picture it appears that the wings look deformed somewhat again highlighting the excessive G load.
Sad and tragic event followed by a T28 the very next day.Mr Leeland will surely be missed.
:salute
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A couple of things to note... Notice in the photo you posted that Mr. Leeland is not visible in the photo. In other photos, he is clearly slumped against the instrument panel. If he can't see out, he can't know where the aircraft is pointed. Leeland is obviously unconscious, due to GLOC. As several of us have mentioned, missing the grandstand was pure luck, or fate, or some higher power at work.
Note also that the g loading was severe enough to overpower the hydraulic cylinder and extend the tail wheel.... My understanding is that it requires g loading in excess of 9g to do that. So, this is strong evidence that Leeland was subjected to g forces of at least 9g, and very likely higher than that. Any pilot, especially a 74-year old pilot, will GLOC under that loading. He was unconscious immediately after the pitch up and the aircraft went where it did due to factors like torque, aileron and rudder trim.
I believe that the NTSB will rule this accident a result of a catastrophic mechanical failure, probably resulting from undetected fatigue of the trim tab hardware and/or mounting structure.
Unfortunately this is most likely what happened...as much as you want to believe he pulled up at the last second, everything points to the fact that he would not have been able to.
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I was there and witnessed the accident first hand this past Friday.. After seeing all the pictures and putting together what I saw/heard, I am 99% confident Jimmy was completely unconscious due to the excessive G load after the trim tab departed the aircraft.. The trim tab at 450mph is an absolutely critical piece if the airframe to keep the excess pressure off the stick. Even at 100mph if the trim tab isn't correctly set on the Cessna I fly, it requires a LOT of forward pressure on the yoke to stay level. Losing the trim tab at those speeds could EASILY overpower the pilot. I am almost positive that once the trim tab let go, the stick was thrown out of Jimmy's hands, and the sudden unexpected g-forces (some people are saying the telemetry read about 10g's instantly) caused him to lose consciousness and control of the plane all together. I didn't see any attempt to correct the path of flight, and the roll was probably due to the torque of the engine. It was just an absolute miracle the plane didn't end up in the grandstands.
I was about 300-350 yards away from the point of impact and it's not something I ever want to witness again. The sound and mental picture of the plane hitting the ground will be with me forever.. :(
The response to the situation however was amazing. The calm and orderly tending to the wounded was unlike anything I've ever seen. Even an old Vietnam era Huey that was on display fired up the engines and was the first helicopter on the scene taking people to the hospital. Amazing teamwork by all those that responded and they should all be commended. :salute
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Glad yr alright. Have too many fOlks I know close to this one.
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I was there and witnessed the accident first hand this past Friday.. After seeing all the pictures and putting together what I saw/heard, I am 99% confident Jimmy was completely unconscious due to the excessive G load after the trim tab departed the aircraft.. The trim tab at 450mph is an absolutely critical piece if the airframe to keep the excess pressure off the stick. Even at 100mph if the trim tab isn't correctly set on the Cessna I fly, it requires a LOT of forward pressure on the yoke to stay level. Losing the trim tab at those speeds could EASILY overpower the pilot. I am almost positive that once the trim tab let go, the stick was thrown out of Jimmy's hands, and the sudden unexpected g-forces (some people are saying the telemetry read about 10g's instantly) caused him to lose consciousness and control of the plane all together. I didn't see any attempt to correct the path of flight, and the roll was probably due to the torque of the engine. It was just an absolute miracle the plane didn't end up in the grandstands.
I was about 300-350 yards away from the point of impact and it's not something I ever want to witness again. The sound and mental picture of the plane hitting the ground will be with me forever.. :(
The response to the situation however was amazing. The calm and orderly tending to the wounded was unlike anything I've ever seen. Even an old Vietnam era Huey that was on display fired up the engines and was the first helicopter on the scene taking people to the hospital. Amazing teamwork by all those that responded and they should all be commended. :salute
Wow! I'm glad you are safe. I can only imagine what you are feeling, having witnessed that crash close at hand...
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Nova... I'm sorry you had to see that but I'm happy you're okay.
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To everyone affected by this horrific accident, my condolences, my family has been thru airshow crashes before, I have watched my dad crash, he luckily made a semi recovery. The first thing out of his mouth when I got to his plane was, " I kept it out of the crowd, tell your mom I am all right", which He wasn't but non the less, anyone who performs at air shows first priority is to keep the bad things out of the crowd. If he was not able to do it I can assure he was trying with all that he had. I will have the NTSB report along with the FAA report as soon as they come out. I am sure that Mr. Leeward will be found not at fault for this. I am truly thankful that it was not worse than it was, there was no fire. Realistically when the people that get into any type of plane whether it is a J-3 Cub or an unlimited class racer, we take a chance of a failure, it is part of aviation, things break, we hope and pray that we can keep it away from the crowd, and keep spectators from getting hurt. It is a part of aviation. Again if, and I am sure that he was, incapacitated from the g forces, either thru being mashed down to the panel, or being completely unconscious his last thought was for the safety of the spectators, not for himself. Let's face East and raise our glass for a departed aviator.
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Fully one third of that P-51s wings were modded off. Crazy.
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would the wings being chopped allow the plane to roll easier?
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would the wings being chopped allow the plane to roll easier?
So you have less form and skin friction drag.
Less drag = more speed.
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watching the video the roll did not seem smooth? :headscratch: I think there is more to this story.
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watching the video the roll did not seem smooth? :headscratch: I think there is more to this story.
With the pilot pushed all the way forward by the G forces maybe he could have accidentally been pushing the stick. Who knows?
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A video showed up on TV showing the entire roll to impact. I'm sure they will Frame-by-Frame analyze it to see if they can determine pilot position, consciousness, etc. Too sad.... :salute
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The questions I have:
If the elevator is leaving the plane at the attitude of the plane that it shows, what is the response the elevator makes before it detaches from the plane?
Does it waggle or flap loosely?
If it breaks or looses input, does it instantaneously fly off?
Do the elevators have to do more work/carry more load with the clipped wings?
Here is another video shown this morning and the part in question. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kw2CETrj_Ao (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kw2CETrj_Ao) There was a forward video in the plane and something similar to a black box that not only recorded the data it sent it in real time to the ground.
:pray ers to all involved,
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would the wings being chopped allow the plane to roll easier?
Roll easier? sure, and I would imagine making any recovery from departed flight far more difficult. That airplane was a tragedy looking to happen.
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Roll easier? sure, and I would imagine making any recovery from departed flight far more difficult. That airplane was a tragedy looking to happen.
That's a hugely ignorant comment in addition to being wrong.
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That's a hugely ignorant comment in addition to being wrong.
Removing 1/3 of each outer wing should make for a better roll. No?
Departing controlled flight ie stall, should be harder to regain with less surface area. No?
That airplane was modded out to hell and back. It simply got too hot for safe flight in my judgement. You disagree? Ok :x
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You realize the wing configuration was not the cause. Looking at the video it is obvious it was a failure of the trim tab on one side.
When shortening the wing I doubt they removed or lessened any of the control surfaces. The plane still had plenty of lift with less drag.
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When shortening the wing I doubt they removed or lessened any of the control surfaces.
A podcast uploaded to YouTube back in June has Jimmy Leeward discussing the plane.
He said his crew cut five feet off each wing and shortened the ailerons to half their original length, the back edge of the main wings used to control balance. They also removed the air scoop on the belly.
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Interesting..... although seeing as how they are not needing quick roll rate I guess I can see why....
One vid of him talking about his plane was removed from another site. Probably because of traffic.
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http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2011/09/18/national/main20108037.shtml
"The 65-year-old "Galloping Ghost" underwent years of massive overhauls that took a full 10 feet off its wingspan. The ailerons -- the back edges of the main wings used to control balance -- were cut from about 60 inches to 32.
Pilot Jimmy Leeward had said the changes made the P-51 Mustang faster and more maneuverable, but in the months before Friday's crash even he wasn't certain exactly how it would perform.
"I know it'll do the speed," he said in a podcast uploaded to YouTube in June. "The systems aren't proven yet. We think they're going to be OK. ""
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That airplane was too damned hot. The one thing I will take away from this tragedy is a deep disappointment that spectators were allowed to be in such close proximity to the racing circuit, so as to be practically underneath the airplanes. What a tragic thought process.
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I'm confused, I saw in a picture that the trim edges on the back of the left elevator came off, I don't think that would bring a plane down would it?
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"I know it'll do the speed," he said in a podcast uploaded to YouTube in June. "The systems aren't proven yet. We think they're going to be OK. ""
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That airplane was too damned hot. The one thing I will take away from this tragedy is a deep disappointment that spectators were allowed to be in such close proximity to the racing circuit, so as to be practically underneath the airplanes. What a tragic thought process.
Again your conclusions are wrong and I'm very confident the context is skewed way way way out of where it should be.
Not to mention you actually don't know where/why/how the spectators are separated from the end boundary of the circuit. 2000' and just like a regular airshow you don't carry momentum toward the crowd. This accident could NOT be planned for.
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I'm confused, I saw in a picture that the trim edges on the back of the left elevator came off, I don't think that would bring a plane down would it?
It's been explained just how it can. By me, by others. What caused the separation of the trim tab will be interesting to learn if possible.
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It's been explained just how it can. By me, by others. What caused the separation of the trim tab will be interesting to learn if possible.
I think what they were getting at is maybe the changes made to the plane made it much harder to control once something did go wrong. Granted these planes are built to do 1 specific thing and that's go fast and turn along a racing course but you can't say cutting 5 feet off the plane's wings as well as reducing the control surfaces is not going to affect how the aircraft handles.
You can't really treat this like a normal aviation accident because normal planes fall under known specifics as far as their testing and so forth. These types of mods greatly affect how the aircraft flys and who knows how it would react once something breaks.
Not trying to vilify the guy as I'm sure he was a great person, it's just this accident should be a wake up call if nothing else that things need to be looked at a bit closer with these type of events. The same bad things have happened in auto racing over the years and because of the accidents racing has become safer for both the drivers & the spectators. Early races for example, drivers used to show up with roll cages built out of wood and spectators used to line their cars or stand along the edges of the tracks. (morons still stand along the track sides in droves in off road racing & rally racing)
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A podcast uploaded to YouTube back in June has Jimmy Leeward discussing the plane.
He said his crew cut five feet off each wing and shortened the ailerons to half their original length, the back edge of the main wings used to control balance. They also removed the air scoop on the belly.
In 1949 Bill Odom wrecked his P-51 into a house in Cleveland and he died as well as two people who were in the house. The wings were not trimmed on that plane to my knowledge. This was an accident plane and simple. A very tragic accident.
Big shout out to the Huey, Viet-Nam vets keeping it real.
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I think the trim tab played only a peripheral role in this accident. Despite what Widewings friend said the nose isnt trimmed down that much and the pilot in this case was certainly trained to handle events like that. However...
The trim tab problem came to the attention of the pilot just as he approached a critical part of the course. Anyone that has flown on this course should know that. The problem facing the pilot wasnt "how do I get this down?" but "do I stay in the race or exit now?" and he had to make that decision very quickly or the choice would be made for him when he crossed the "deadline" (sorry... thats what its called). Having made the decision to stay in the race the pilot then HAD to pull hard enough that he blacked out.
Thats the only role the trim tab played in this. It forced a decision that the pilot may have made many many times before. This time it didnt work out.
Godspeed Jimmy.
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In 1949 Bill Odom wrecked his P-51 into a house in Cleveland and he died as well as two people who were in the house. The wings were not trimmed on that plane to my knowledge. This was an accident plane and simple. A very tragic accident.
Big shout out to the Huey, Viet-Nam vets keeping it real.
An apple is not an orange, regardless of how hard you might try to make it one.
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just like a regular airshow you don't carry momentum toward the crowd. This accident could NOT be planned for.
It would be very interesting to see a diagram of the race course and its relationship to the populated viewing areas on and near the tarmac.
The tragic reality is an highly modified airplane departed controlled flight and impacted a densely populated viewing area. Will also be interesting to hear from the people that set up the air races and determine spectator viewing areas. No doubt affected persons will be seeking lawful recourse in the tragedy and we will be privy to some of the details as time goes on...
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According to the news which I have seen. Some official news on the cause of the accident is suppose to come Friday.
How much can they determine by then?
Is the news I saw even correct?
Guess wait and see.
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Godspeed Jimmy.
Also,
Greg Morcum, 47, Marysville, Wash.
Michael Wogan, 22, Phoenix, Ariz.
George Hewitt, 60, Fort Mohave, Ariz.
John Craik, 47, Gardnerville, Nev.
Regina Bynum, 53, San Angelo, Texas.
Sharon Stewart, 47, Reno, Nev.
Confirmed Missing
Wendy Hewitt, Fort Mohave, Ariz.
Cherie Elvin, Lenexa, Kan.
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I believe that the NTSB will rule this accident a result of a catastrophic mechanical failure, probably resulting from undetected fatigue of the trim tab hardware and/or mounting structure.
The horizontal is a new build structure to the best of my knowledge.
Jimmy's name was Leeward, not Leeland.
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I think the trim tab played only a peripheral role in this accident. Despite what Widewings friend said the nose isnt trimmed down that much and the pilot in this case was certainly trained to handle events like that. However...
Chalenge, you don't think so? How about asking a guy with over 2,000 hours in P-51s, racing and airshows? I did... At speeds above 400 mph, a P-51's stick forces often require in excess of 100 lbs just to keep the nose level. A pilot cannot sustain that. Thus, he trims the elevators down to eliminate much of the force. However, trim changes with airspeed, and racing pilot will adjust trim as required. At very high speeds, should a trim tab fail, the surface holding trim is at least halved. Thus, the aircraft will immediately pitch up. A member of Leeward's ground crew reportedly stated that real-time telemetry indicated 10.4g peak loading. Not only is that more than enough to GLOC any pilot, but the extremely rapid onset of G virtually guarantees that Leeward was out within a second or two.
Bob Hannah could tell you how violent the pitch up is....
"About 5 seconds after Voodoo pitched up suddenly, Steve Hinton radioed Hannah, "You OK Bob?" "Yeah, this thing just popped big time", replied Hannah. What Hannah didn't mention is that the g-load from the quick pull-up had caused him to black out. He finally managed to reach the throttle and reduced Voodoo's power. At that point Hannah radioed that he "wasn't out of it yet," and that he wasn't thinking clearly. Later, he declared a mayday and made a perfect landing. . . . On the ground one could see what cause Voodoo's problems during the race. The left elevator torque tube failed when the elevator trim fluttered and departed the plane."
Bob Hannah was 41 years old and in excellent physical shape. Still, it took him a while to recover from the rapid onset of high g. Now, Leeward was 74 years old, with the reduced blood flow that follows all aging. He didn't have enough time to recover from the GLOC.
Pretty open and shut..... I'm very confident that this will be the finding of the NTSB investigation, especially since they now have the onboard data logger card, and that of the crew.
Has anyone seen the most recent video released? Jesus, Mary and Joseph... The guy who shot the video was barely 75 yards from the impact.
Here's a link to an NBC report with the video...
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21134540/vp/44586193#44586193 (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21134540/vp/44586193#44586193)
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In 1949 Bill Odom wrecked his P-51 into a house in Cleveland and he died as well as two people who were in the house. The wings were not trimmed on that plane to my knowledge. This was an accident plane and simple. A very tragic accident.
Big shout out to the Huey, Viet-Nam vets keeping it real.
Bill Odem's P51C "Beguine" nope not trimmed :rolleyes:
(http://images.rcuniverse.com/forum/upfiles/53802/Xs57527.jpg)
(http://www.airrace.com/images/7%20P-51C%20King%20Beguine%20%2005.jpg)
(http://www.airrace.com/images/Beguine105%20adj%20.jpg)
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Widewing is correct. In my friends mustang ( buzzin cuzzin) we always have to add nose down trim.
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The horizontal is a new build structure to the best of my knowledge.
Jimmy's name was Leeward, not Leeland.
Thanks for correcting the name misspelling... :aok
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Yes sorry Bodhi I followed Wides lead and carried it on,my mistake!
:salute
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One vid of him talking about his plane was removed from another site. Probably because of traffic.
June
Part 1 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Im-m1yllfSE (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Im-m1yllfSE)
Part2 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fent9Qa0clk (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fent9Qa0clk)
Thursday's interview
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fGkQY9v18RA (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fGkQY9v18RA)
This plane was not even a test plane, more the experimental category.
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At speeds above 400 mph, a P-51's stick forces often require in excess of 100 lbs just to keep the nose level. A pilot cannot sustain that. Thus, he trims the elevators down to eliminate much of the force. However, trim changes with airspeed, and racing pilot will adjust trim as required. At very high speeds, should a trim tab fail, the surface holding trim is at least halved. Thus, the aircraft will immediately pitch up. A member of Leeward's ground crew reportedly stated that real-time telemetry indicated 10.4g peak loading. Not only is that more than enough to GLOC any pilot, but the extremely rapid onset of G virtually guarantees that Leeward was out within a second or two.
That sounds very believable to me. What is disconcerting is that such forces are dealt on racing planes going hell fast - hell close to the ground in such close proximity to dense populations. If what you describe is true, as it very much seems to be, then this tragedy was just waiting to happen.
To have so much riding on a trim tab is almost approaching the breaking point of calculated risk with regards to pilots, spectators and machines.
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See Rule #4
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It would be very interesting to see a diagram of the race course and its relationship to the populated viewing areas on and near the tarmac.
The tragic reality is an highly modified airplane departed controlled flight and impacted a densely populated viewing area. Will also be interesting to hear from the people that set up the air races and determine spectator viewing areas. No doubt affected persons will be seeking lawful recourse in the tragedy and we will be privy to some of the details as time goes on...
Doubt there will be lawful recourse. All they need to do is read the back of their ticket...........
Watched that newer video..... you'd think that some outfit that called themselves NEWS would know the difference between a RACE and an AIRSHOW.
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See Rule #4
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Doubt there will be lawful recourse. All they need to do is read the back of their ticket...........
Watched that newer video..... you'd think that some outfit that called themselves NEWS would know the difference between a RACE and an AIRSHOW.
I think it is safe to say that there are enough elements of an air show, static displays, fly overs....etc etc that the Reno Air Race does indeed qualify as an minor airshow of sorts. Golfer, straighten me out on this if I am mistaken.
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I think it is safe to say that there are enough elements of an air show, static displays, fly overs....etc etc that the Reno Air Race does indeed qualify as an minor airshow of sorts. Golfer, straighten me out on this if I am mistaken.
In the same respect as the Indy 500 being a race and carshow. They are however referring to a crash in a race.
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its the mainstream media. what do you expect? absolute accuracy?
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Any accuracy at all would be a good place to start.
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OK, I know that I'm kicking over a hornet's nest with this one, but I am so disgusted by this low-life (he advertises daily in Phoenix as well) that I had to post this.
And, yes, I am well aware that the majority of lawyers out there don't wear this slimy suit.
http://www.renoairshowcrashattorney.com/
If I was a malicious individual, I'd be calling on fellow OC's to:
1) Tie up his toll free# with scornful calls
2) Launch a denial of service attack on his website
But, that would be if I was malicious.
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Truly amazing how an accident like this one can bring out the best in people, and the worst.. This is a clear example of the later.
That guy disgusts me :mad:
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my last post would not last long. it was filled with just as much low taste as that lawyer has. <S> to the good hearted souls. damn the rest :noid
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OK, I know that I'm kicking over a hornet's nest with this one, but I am so disgusted by this low-life (he advertises daily in Phoenix as well) that I had to post this.
And, yes, I am well aware that the majority of lawyers out there don't wear this slimy suit.
http://www.renoairshowcrashattorney.com/
If I was a malicious individual, I'd be calling on fellow OC's to:
1) Tie up his toll free# with scornful calls
2) Launch a denial of service attack on his website
But, that would be if I was malicious.
His secretary seems nice.
EDIT: Nevermind. I don't need a permanent vacation just yet.
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Poor girl is going to take a lot of heat because of her employer.
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Not sure if anyone has posted this link or not, but of the vids I've seen, this one seems to have the clearest view of the plane:
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2011/09/20/national/main20109115.shtml
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It is just so unbelievable. So unreal.
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To have so much riding on a trim tab is almost approaching the breaking point of calculated risk with regards to pilots, spectators and machines.
Trim tabs do just what is being described -- that is their usual function. Yes, they are subject to force during high-speed flight, and you don't want them to fail at high speed. Same is true of many elements of an airplane: a wing, a tail, an elevator, a windshield, a crankshaft, etc.
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Trim tabs do just what is being described -- that is their usual function. Yes, they are subject to force during high-speed flight, and you don't want them to fail at high speed. Same is true of many elements of an airplane: a wing, a tail, an elevator, a windshield, a crankshaft, etc.
Agreed. I never understood before this that a trim tab could be so critical as to cause the loss of an airplane.
The races will continue, as they should. that much is for sure.
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The year I went to Reno, one of the P-51 racers went through the wake of another plane, causing flutter, then broke apart and crashed.
It's a tragedy that one hopes never happens, but racing probably can't be fully safe unless it is all virtual.
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Michael Wogan, 22, Phoenix, Ariz.
When I read the name I wasn't sure if it was from the family I had know as a kid.
I found out today the son was killed instantly plane landed right where he was, father is still in critical condition.
I knew the uncle as a kid, still friends with his ex wife. She teaches a class with my wife. Very sad for the family.
:pray
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Very srry to hear that Sonic.
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It would be very interesting to see a diagram of the race course and its relationship to the populated viewing areas on and near the tarmac.
The tragic reality is an highly modified airplane departed controlled flight and impacted a densely populated viewing area. Will also be interesting to hear from the people that set up the air races and determine spectator viewing areas. No doubt affected persons will be seeking lawful recourse in the tragedy and we will be privy to some of the details as time goes on...
The following link takes you to a page which, if you scroll down, will give you a rough diagram. Scroll farther for a second diagram. Please note the runway in front of the viewing area...That runway is the line over which no race plane may cross for the safety of the spectators, and unfortunately, there are no dimensions shown, but it is normally a safe distance. The green "Home Pylon" would be on the racers starboard side while the checkered finish tower just barely shown above the home pylon would be on the racers port side.
The Reno Air Race Association is expecting, "No doubt affected persons will be seeking lawful recourse in the tragedy and we will be privy to some of the details as time goes on..." , and the courts will give everyone who was within 5 miles of the place a big settlement...Kind of like asking for hot coffee, spilling it in your lap, then suing because there was no warning label on the cup. Welcome to America in the 21st century.
The field, now a part of the Reno Airport Authority, was originally Stead Air Force Base.
The "densely populated viewing area" was not densely populated at the time of the crash. It was a Friday after noon, so maybe about 1/4 the number of people in the entire area, inside the "controlled by ticket admission area" that would have been there on a Saturday and Sunday.
Why is it you have all this "interest" in The National Championship Air Races now?
They have been held since 1964, and I'll bet you have never seen a one. I missed the first one, and three others in '68, '69, and 70, but have been to all the others, including 2001, the year they were not allowed to take off because of the attacks of 9/11.
http://rss.msnbc.msn.com/id/44569068/ns/us_news-life/ (http://rss.msnbc.msn.com/id/44569068/ns/us_news-life/)
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It's a miracle more weren't hurt.
Some were uninjured only a few feet from where the plane hit.
I talked to a friend who experienced a broken leg and he said there was no even attempting to move out of the way and instead watched it in fascination as it bore down on him.
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Telemetry from Galloping Ghost shows 11g pitch-up....
http://www.flyingmag.com/news/reno-crash-update-telemetry-data-emerges (http://www.flyingmag.com/news/reno-crash-update-telemetry-data-emerges)
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Telemetry from Galloping Ghost shows 11g pitch-up....
http://www.flyingmag.com/news/reno-crash-update-telemetry-data-emerges (http://www.flyingmag.com/news/reno-crash-update-telemetry-data-emerges)
Well...he was lights out.
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It would be very interesting to see a diagram of the race course and its relationship to the populated viewing areas on and near the tarmac.
The tragic reality is an highly modified airplane departed controlled flight and impacted a densely populated viewing area. Will also be interesting to hear from the people that set up the air races and determine spectator viewing areas. No doubt affected persons will be seeking lawful recourse in the tragedy and we will be privy to some of the details as time goes on...
The following link takes you to a page which, if you scroll down, will give you a rough diagram. Scroll farther for a second diagram. Please note the runway in front of the viewing area...That runway is the line over which no race plane may cross for the safety of the spectators, and unfortunately, there are no dimensions shown, but it is normally a safe distance. The green "Home Pylon" would be on the racers starboard side while the checkered finish tower just barely shown above the home pylon would be on the racers port side.
The Reno Air Race Association is expecting, "No doubt affected persons will be seeking lawful recourse in the tragedy and we will be privy to some of the details as time goes on..." , and the courts will give everyone who was within 5 miles of the place a big settlement...Kind of like asking for hot coffee, spilling it in your lap, then suing because there was no warning label on the cup. Welcome to America in the 21st century.
The field, now a part of the Reno Airport Authority, was originally Stead Air Force Base.
The "densely populated viewing area" was not densely populated at the time of the crash. It was a Friday after noon, so maybe about 1/4 the number of people in the entire area, inside the "controlled by ticket admission area" that would have been there on a Saturday and Sunday.
Why is it you have all this "interest" in The National Championship Air Races now?
They have been held since 1964, and I'll bet you have never seen a one. I missed the first one, and three others in '68, '69, and 70, but have been to all the others, including 2001, the year they were not allowed to take off because of the attacks of 9/11.
http://rss.msnbc.msn.com/id/44569068/ns/us_news-life/ (http://rss.msnbc.msn.com/id/44569068/ns/us_news-life/)
(http://reports.airrace.org/timing/UnlimitedRaceCourse.gif)
wrongway
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Found this on youtube just now. Seems someone made a animated flight model of what likely happened. I wonder how accurate this is, looks pretty close to what the real vids show.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mBd7cXoGbAo
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It has begun......
http://bestaccident-attorneys.com/reno-air-show-crash-lawyer/
They are like leeches. :rolleyes:
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i;m shocked it took this long.
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It was a week ago today that I was in Reno and witnessed this accident.. I can still vividly hear it and see it in my head and it makes me sick just thinking of it.. I wish I could get my mind off it, but it's really sticking with me even a week later.. :frown:
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Nova it will stick with you for a long time. In 2003 my dad and I were flying an airshow at our home base, I was 200 feet above him, and watched him crash. I had flown the bird 2 days before that, because he had not gotten down here from San Antonio, I had no problems with it. One year later I was in the dining facility in Mosul Iraq when it was blown up, that to this day does not bother me, with all the devastation that happened that day, I am not bothered by it, but I still have dreams and think about watching my dads SE-5 crash. I really don't know what to tell you, it is a hard thing to get over, but you will. Stick with it and keep your head up.
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It was a week ago today that I was in Reno and witnessed this accident.. I can still vividly hear it and see it in my head and it makes me sick just thinking of it.. I wish I could get my mind off it, but it's really sticking with me even a week later.. :frown:
it's gonna stick with ya.
20 years ago, i watched as a street racer ran from the police. i watched him clip a car, and caused a head on accident, and saw the people killed. that was 20 years ago. if i close my eyes, and think about it, i can still see those people laying there(one hanging partly out of the car). it's just something you kind of learn to live with.
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An interesting video on the subject.
http://vimeo.com/29519344
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An interesting video on the subject.
http://vimeo.com/29519344
wow.......beautiful seeing the airplanes at engine start and roll out. Puts a proper perspective on the whole race. And to see the point where the airplane began its loss of control and final decent was very educational for me. I thought the loss of the trim tab was the cause. It looked to me like it was more of a result of the problem and not the cause. Tail wheel was out before the trim tab was torn away.
At least the film stopped before impact. Thanks for sharing this
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An interesting video on the subject.
http://vimeo.com/29519344
Utterly definitive video....
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wow......
i thought that the trim tab was what caused the whole thing.......seeing this, it becomes obvious, that it wasn't.
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The video doesn't rule out the trim tab as the culprit, it just doesn't confirm it.
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wow......
i thought that the trim tab was what caused the whole thing.......seeing this, it becomes obvious, that it wasn't.
It's still not obvious that it wasn't the cause.. it's only less obvious that it was. Just because the trim tab hadn't yet broken off of the plane doesn't mean it wasn't malfunctioning when the plane pitched upwards.
One other possibility I can think of is that maybe the seat broke and the pilot grabbed the trim wheel as a last ditch effort to control the pitch. The abrupt trim movement during the High G forces might have been what caused it to break off? Just one of many theories at this point...
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It's still not obvious that it wasn't the cause.. it's only less obvious that it was. Just because the trim tab hadn't yet broken off of the plane doesn't mean it wasn't malfunctioning when the plane pitched upwards.
One other possibility I can think of is that maybe the seat broke and the pilot grabbed the trim wheel as a last ditch effort to control the pitch. The abrupt trim movement during the High G forces might have been what caused it to break off? Just one of many theories at this point...
good points. i made the mistake of assuming, due to the fact that it was still there through part of the climb. the seat issue you mentioned, could have something to do with that momentary over-rotation in the turn?
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What would Mr.Leeward say if he was interviewed today? Do you think he would blame his Crew or anyone else? You guys disrespect this Pilot and Race Team.
We'll never know, nor should we. They know the Game their Playing and so do the folks that show up to what ch a Race.
120 races prior to this, error free. These guys are to be complimented, not degraded.
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wow......
i thought that the trim tab was what caused the whole thing.......seeing this, it becomes obvious, that it wasn't.
It was absolutely the trim tab... It failed in the turn, detached completely later.... Did you notice how the Mustang suddenly tightened the turn then rolled and pitched up? The tail wheel came down on the initial tightening of the turn...
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What would Mr.Leeward say if he was interviewed today? Do you think he would blame his Crew or anyone else?
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Maybe he would say that fate intervened, and that his crew was the very best, and that his airplane was ready to race. Maybe he would say that life can sometimes be wonderful beyond description and rarely but surely so cruel as to be beyond understanding.
We'll never know, nor should we.
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What a terrible waste that would be, and really a poorly thought out thing to say. Every accident deserves to be understood and learned from to prevent another such occurrence from ever happening again.
They know the Game their Playing and so do the folks that show up to what ch a Race.
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I think Mr. Leeward, may he rest in peace, understood perfectly the risk he was taking, and I believe he would never endanger the race spectators under any circumstances, ever.
120 races prior to this, error free. These guys are to be complimented, not degraded.
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Where has anyone in this thread spoken out and degraded anyone else living or deceased regarding this tragedy. The airplanes are hot, the pilots and ground crew top professionals in their field. I believe that people who go to see these races do not typically believe their lives are at any sort of unusual or heightened risk. What happened there that day is a perfect example of life being unpredictable and without guarantee of safety, for anyone.
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When we point blame................Assuming we know...........Someone feels the Burden of Guilt.
It was Tragic! I cannot express my feelings for all that have lost a loved one or got hurt in this incident.
God Bless All
I know Jimmy would never jeopardize the fans in attendance, Just another example of who we are and the fight we face.
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It was absolutely the trim tab... It failed in the turn, detached completely later.... Did you notice how the Mustang suddenly tightened the turn then rolled and pitched up? The tail wheel came down on the initial tightening of the turn...
what i thought i noticed, was he was maintaining a bank angle...then rotated a few degrees farther into the bank. that's what i was asking about. it looked like that rotation was uncommanded, and corrected, then she climbed.......
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then she climbed.......
That is the point I think where G-LOC likely took hold. I can only imagine the force of gravity under such stress.
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what i thought i noticed, was he was maintaining a bank angle...then rotated a few degrees farther into the bank. that's what i was asking about. it looked like that rotation was uncommanded, and corrected, then she climbed.......
Could be that he hit the wake of a preceding plane, or that could be when the tab started to fail.
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I'm hearing telemetry numbers way in excess of 11Gs.
Will post them when they are official.
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That is the point I think where G-LOC likely took hold. I can only imagine the force of gravity under such stress.
i don't think any of us can......and i know i don't want to.......
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yeah, I hear ya CAP. I dont think Ive ever gone over 99mph and THAT was too damned fast. I enjoy being rooted firmly on the ground. I do enjoy watching others go fast though, from a good distance.
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yeah, I hear ya CAP. I dont think Ive ever gone over 99mph and THAT was too damned fast. I enjoy being rooted firmly on the ground. I do enjoy watching others go fast though, from a good distance.
i enjoy flying, and miss it a lot right now. in cessnas, i generally cruised at a screaming 115kts. i never felt the need to go much faster. my friends super decathalon, i think we cruised around 125 or 135 or so.
if i had ever been to the reno races, i'd have wanted to be as close as possible. and if they don't end up getting killed off, and i get the chance to go....i will still get as close as i possibly can. :aok
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yeah, I hear ya CAP. I dont think Ive ever gone over 99mph and THAT was too damned fast. I enjoy being rooted firmly on the ground. I do enjoy watching others go fast though, from a good distance.
Actually, this last June I got to go 325 mph. Peaked out at 4G.
In a P-51 Mustang.
With hands on throttle and joystick....
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Actually, this last June I got to go 325 mph. Peaked out at 4G.
In a P-51 Mustang.
With hands on throttle and joystick....
braggart!!!
:aok
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braggart!!!
:aok
Well, I managed to keep it bottled up for 3 months...that ought to be worth something!
Definitely a "bucket list" experience. I'm almost done with an AAR, and I'm lining up the photos for the post. More to follow.
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Well, I managed to keep it bottled up for 3 months...that ought to be worth something!
Definitely a "bucket list" experience. I'm almost done with an AAR, and I'm lining up the photos for the post. More to follow.
definite coolness. any vid too?
a couple of times, i had watched the feed from the cameras at warbird adventures on kissimmee gateway airport......
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Well, I managed to keep it bottled up for 3 months...that ought to be worth something!
Definitely a "bucket list" experience. I'm almost done with an AAR, and I'm lining up the photos for the post. More to follow.
Please do post. Lots of folks would love to see it.
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Another new picture surfaced
(http://jonathanturley.files.wordpress.com/2011/09/reno-2.jpg)
and may explain the up and down tail wheel in the video waldo posted.
http://jonathanturley.org/2011/09/21/new-picture-shows-pilot-missing-in-galloping-ghost-shortly-before-fatal-crash/#more-39722 (http://jonathanturley.org/2011/09/21/new-picture-shows-pilot-missing-in-galloping-ghost-shortly-before-fatal-crash/#more-39722)
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a dam pretty bird that is. notice the two holes lower left of the 177. This was the vent for the boil off colling system. adapted from the space shuttle.
side note: I would like to know more about the concave wing.
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There are some pictures around that are perhaps photoshopped fakes. This looks like one of them based on several factors (it is perfectly aligned on the 9 o'clock level point of view; even the prop is perfectly aligned; there is no bluriness at all, not even on the prop; no vapor coming out of the radiator-cooling ports, which is a feature of this racer's particular design; if you look at the video, it looks unlikely that there is anyone at the position needed to get this particular angle; the reflection in the prop hub looks like it shows a horizon with other airplanes parked on the ground or a few buildings).
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That's a similar picture (slightly enlarged and the photo is rotated 90º) to one that was released day-of the race and started circulating. It's legitimate.
Leeward is pinned forward, the tailwheel is forced down due to excessive G force, the propeller is spinning and the reflection/refraction in the canopy is correct.
Take note of this photo:
Same features, different angle.
(http://i538.photobucket.com/albums/ff345/martinguitarist/la-na-renocrashfr6.jpg)
The "original" version of the photo I saw day-of the crash.
(http://i538.photobucket.com/albums/ff345/martinguitarist/la-ne-renocrashfr8.jpg)
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I'm not disputing the features (tail wheel down, head down). Those are apparent in other pictures and frames of videos. I'm not a photography expert, but the picture with no blurring of the prop (and other aspects that I mention) looks fake to me.
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I'm not disputing the features (tail wheel down, head down). Those are apparent in other pictures and frames of videos. I'm not a photography expert, but the picture with no blurring of the prop (and other aspects that I mention) looks fake to me.
Incredi-fast shutter speeds are capable of such photos, especially with digitally enhanced stabilization as well as a tripod.
Looks real to me.
As an example, I took this picture of a fan moving at the fastest rate the fan could go, with a rather crappy little point & shoot camera.
Thumbnail, 3MB file size when clicked.
(http://img849.imageshack.us/img849/6905/sdc14386.th.jpg) (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/849/sdc14386.jpg/)
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I'm not disputing the features (tail wheel down, head down). Those are apparent in other pictures and frames of videos. I'm not a photography expert, but the picture with no blurring of the prop (and other aspects that I mention) looks fake to me.
I can easily freeze a prop with shutter speed.... Especially when viewed from the side.
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I'm not disputing the features (tail wheel down, head down). Those are apparent in other pictures and frames of videos. I'm not a photography expert, but the picture with no blurring of the prop (and other aspects that I mention) looks fake to me.
There is a forum for photographers, with 1900+ pages of aircraft photos and techniques. There is a lot of discussion about prop blur and how to achieve it as it is
desirable in photos of aircraft.
There are also some pics of 30mm rounds exiting the gun of an A10. :O They like to challenge themselves.
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I'm not disputing the features (tail wheel down, head down). Those are apparent in other pictures and frames of videos. I'm not a photography expert, but the picture with no blurring of the prop (and other aspects that I mention) looks fake to me.
You're right, you're not a photography expert. :lol
Actually it's hard NOT to freeze the prop when shooting planes against a bright sky, I like to get prop motion blur when I photograph airshows and it is difficult. You need to shoot a slower shutter speed and pan with the aircraft in order to keep the aircraft sharp and also have prop blur.
If you just leave your camera on auto-meter on a sunny day looking up at the sky the shutter speed will always be very high (likely 1/2000s or faster) and freeze the prop. I shoot an fly-in a few weeks back and shooting at 5.6 and ISO 100 I was getting shutter speeds of 1/3000s or faster I had to stop down to 8 and use a ND filter and polarizer to get down to a 1/160 shutter speed that would give me nice prop blur.
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You can get that effect with video footage as well. Nothing new.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ltMPMz37VPk&feature=related
This one is particularly funny:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rVSh-au_9aM&NR=1
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OK -- but it just seems that this photo is so unnaturally perfect, that I was suspicious of it.
(http://i538.photobucket.com/albums/ff345/martinguitarist/la-ne-renocrashfr8.jpg)
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I think you guys are right, though, that it is not fake. (And, yes, I do not know much about photography.)
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It does look perfect. But do realize that it was most likely cropped out of a almost perfect photograph.