Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Wishlist => Topic started by: Skyguns MKII on October 25, 2011, 05:43:27 PM
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TAKE THIS
(http://i51.tinypic.com/2yuewzm.jpg)
ADD THIS
(http://i56.tinypic.com/33utvs0.jpg)
AND END UP WITH THIS
(http://i52.tinypic.com/wm1myx.jpg)
Role
Ground attack
Manufacturer
Henschel
First flight
25 May 1939
Introduction
April 1942
Retired
1945
Primary users
Luftwaffe
Hungarian Air Force
Romanian Air Force
Produced
June 1940 - September 1944
Number built
865
General characteristics
Crew: one, pilot
Length: 9.75 m (31 ft 11¾ in)
Wingspan: 14.20 m (46 ft 7 in)
Height: 3.25 m (10 ft 8 in)
Wing area: 29.0 m² (312.15 ft²)
Empty weight: 4,020 kg (8,860 lb)
Max takeoff weight: 5,250 kg (11,574 lb)
Powerplant: 2 × Gnome-Rhône 14M 4/5 14-cylinder radial engines, 522 kW (700 hp) each
Performance
Maximum speed: 407 km/h (220 knots, 253 mph) at 3,830 m (12,570 ft) (clean)
Range: 690 km (372 nmi, 428 mi)
Service ceiling: 9,000 m (29,530 ft)
Rate of climb: 8.1 m/s (1,595 ft/min)
Armament
Guns: ** 2 × 13 mm (.51 in) MG 131 machine guns 2 × 20 mm MG 151/20 cannons
up to 8 × 50 kg (110 lb) fragmentation bombs or a 30 mm (1.2 in) MK 101 armor-piercing gun externally
(30MM REPLACED BY 75MM PAK40 AS WAR CONTINUED)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iNYemXJ7jmE&feature=mh_lolz&list=LL3mavm0jIeU_PlBdvdqnd9Q
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I seen a few pictures of these planes. not many made but they were great tank busters!
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snip
Would there be any reason to take this over the b25H tho?
The b25 has a 75mm aswell, along with (what it looks like) better defensive power.
Im not saying it shouldn't be Added simply because theirs something better already in game.
Im just thinking it may become the german Beau, in a sense that it'll be popular for a week, then be hangered for the b25H.
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Would there be any reason to take this over the b25H tho?
The b25 has a 75mm aswell, along with (what it looks like) better defensive power.
AP ammo?
To take something that can barely fly? Oh wait, you said B-25. Never mind on that last one. :p
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Would there be any reason to take this over the b25H tho?
The b25 has a 75mm aswell, along with (what it looks like) better defensive power.
Im not saying it shouldn't be Added simply because theirs something better already in game.
Im just thinking it may become the german Beau, in a sense that it'll be popular for a week, then be hangered for the b25H.
b25 was never designed to take out tanks, this was. I'm sure it carried Armor piercing. This aircraft would ultimately outclass the 25h in Antitank defence against a base. Not to mention it would be more maneuverable and you wouldn't have to worry about pulling out or setting up your shot as much as a 25h.
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As posted in many of the other Hs129 threads, the 75mm was only installed on a handful before the order was cancelled. Of the 1000+ built, only 20-odd made it off the lines with the big gun, and no telling whether it made it into regular service.
The majority of the Hs129s used the Mk101 30mm gun, which was showings its age by not being able to take out Soviet tanks as early as 1943... The Hs129 was never improved quickly enough and was cancelled. The real canopener of the war was the Ju-87G, despite having only 37mm rounds, they were more than able to open any tank on the Eastern Front.
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Would there be any reason to take this over the b25H tho?
The b25 has a 75mm aswell, along with (what it looks like) better defensive power.
Im not saying it shouldn't be Added simply because theirs something better already in game.
Im just thinking it may become the german Beau, in a sense that it'll be popular for a week, then be hangered for the b25H.
LOL We get you don't want the Beau, but since when did you decide the future and how something is flown? You are now talking about how a plane we don't have, won't be used. Give it a rest will ya?
As for the Hs 129, it's a nice looking bird. Performance was an issue with it and as mentioned the big gun bird was not a factor. I'd take the more produced version though just for fun :)
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As posted in many of the other Hs129 threads, the 75mm was only installed on a handful before the order was cancelled. Of the 1000+ built, only 20-odd made it off the lines with the big gun, and no telling whether it made it into regular service.
The majority of the Hs129s used the Mk101 30mm gun, which was showings its age by not being able to take out Soviet tanks as early as 1943... The Hs129 was never improved quickly enough and was cancelled. The real canopener of the war was the Ju-87G, despite having only 37mm rounds, they were more than able to open any tank on the Eastern Front.
this
lets get the 87 w/t 37mms.
(goes to find that thread)
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As far as i know the hungarian air force wasnt using theese.
Would be the little brother of the 410. A cool plane, just not as much inportant.
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LOL We get you don't want the Beau, but since when did you decide the future and how something is flown? You are now talking about how a plane we don't have, won't be used. Give it a rest will ya?
As for the Hs 129, it's a nice looking bird. Performance was an issue with it and as mentioned the big gun bird was not a factor. I'd take the more produced version though just for fun :)
It was mere speculation.
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, and no telling whether it made it into regular service.
Yes there is, the 23 75mm armed B-3s served in the SG 9 during the winter of '44-45.
The majority of the Hs129s used the Mk101 30mm gun, which was showings its age by not being able to take out Soviet tanks as early as 1943...
B-2 used three different main weapons, MK101, MK103 and BK 3.7 all of which could be featured as loadout options in AH. According to Tony Williams MK103 could penetrate 42-52mm of armor from 300m at 60degree angle which is enough to easily penetrate the top armor of all tanks in AH except the Tiger I and II. MK103's performance is comparable to the NS 37 of the il-2. NS 37 penetrates 48mm of armor from 500 meters in the angle of 90 degrees. BK 3.7 is the same cannon used in the G-2 -Stuka.
The Hs129 was never improved quickly enough and was cancelled.
Where did you get the idea that it was cancelled? Depending how you want to count it, it was produced from December '40 until September '44. The HS129 was more than adquate for its job and the biggest flaw of it was that there wasn't enough of them considering the lenght of the Eastern Front and the quantity of the opposition.
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It's usage in the arenas would be determined largely by whether it has F3 mode than any other variable.
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This one might be tough to model, IIRC the engine gauges are mounted on the cowlings and you looked out the canopy at the gauges sitting right there on the engines.
I think I aw pics of that somewhere anyway.
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B-2 used three different main weapons, MK101, MK103 and BK 3.7 all of which could be featured as loadout options in AH. According to Tony Williams MK103 could penetrate 42-52mm of armor from 300m at 60degree angle which is enough to easily penetrate the top armor of all tanks in AH except the Tiger I and II. MK103's performance is comparable to the NS 37 of the il-2. NS 37 penetrates 48mm of armor from 500 meters in the angle of 90 degrees. BK 3.7 is the same cannon used in the G-2 -Stuka.
Yes both the Mk101 and Mk103 were fitted, but the common majority were these 30mm guns. The BK37 was never used. I believe only one or two airframes were even mocked up before that avenue of thought was throroughly discontinued, and they started planning for the 75mm gun instead. Meanwhile they tried a number of experimental downward firing rockets and such, but overall the pilots complained the 30mm guns could not take out the Soviet armor.
That's why the Ju87D/G doesn't carry 30mm gunpods.
Are you so sure about those 75mm guns being used? The first handful of airframes were sent to SG9 in August 1944 for service testing and they found a number of issues. There was a major problem with the reload mechanism that took an entire team of specialists all the way through November to work on, and then they never found a solution because by this time it became apparent there was a larger problem. Firing the gun actually damaged the airframe.
Before they could solve these problems they were forced to destroy their planes in January 1945 as Allied ground forces over-ran their field/position. It doesn't sound like this was active front-line testing, from the description, but I could be wrong on that. It SOUNDS more like a controlled testing environment, similar to any other number of German squadrons field-testing new aircraft.
^-- This is why I said I wasn't sure if they ever saw combat... I know they were in a hostile area (all of Germany was, at the time!) but how much was relatively safe testing and test flights, vs combat missions? It's unclear, but doubtful it saw much action if any.
Where did you get the idea that it was cancelled?
Um.... from the fact that they stopped building it. Do you know what cancelled means? It means "no longer wanted," "contractually discontinued," "production shut down, prematurely" or fill in any term you want to use.
The order to cancel production was given in or around August 1944 (same time they started testing) when Allies over-ran some factories in France that were producing either engines or whole aircraft (I cannot recall which), after which point the Hs-129 was cancelled. The production didn't wrap up until September I believe (I am guessing they just finished the airframes they had in progress?)
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This one might be tough to model, IIRC the engine gauges are mounted on the cowlings and you looked out the canopy at the gauges sitting right there on the engines.
I think I aw pics of that somewhere anyway.
wasn't a 110 model like that?
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I think the 110Cs had a few instruments on the cowling of each engine. Maybe just oil or temperature dials, but they may have been supplemental to what was in the cockpit. On the Hs-129, the ones in the cockpit were outside the cockpit!
EDIT: Okay, it did have some inside. There were a trio of engine dials on each cowling as the main dials (no duplicates in cockpit) and the gunsight itself was outside of the windscreen.
(http://t2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRKr4aGWr_70ZXmdGeYUem324bEyxfN_PZ9THZYQ039Z5Ev2QmChg)
But it did have some stuff under the windscreen. Compass, speed, etc.
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Um.... from the fact that they stopped building it. Do you know what cancelled means? It means "no longer wanted," "contractually discontinued," "production shut down, prematurely" or fill in any term you want to use.
Cancelled means no longer planned or scheduled. 'Discontinued' would be the more relevant word in this case.
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Would there be any reason to take this over the b25H tho?
The b25 has a 75mm aswell, along with (what it looks like) better defensive power.
Im not saying it shouldn't be Added simply because theirs something better already in game.
Im just thinking it may become the german Beau, in a sense that it'll be popular for a week, then be hangered for the b25H.
Because it fired AP rounds (would give 132mm penetration, like the KwK 40 L'48).
And even if the 75mm version didn't provide any real benefit over the B-25H, we need because it would provide the Germans with an effective straffer-tank buster, which they lack entirely.
Particularly needed for a Kursk scenario.
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Cancelled means no longer planned or scheduled. 'Discontinued' would be the more relevant word in this case.
Uhhh... nope. P-40 production was "cancelled" too... It's not a technical term. It's basic English. The airframe development was unchanged since almost 1941-42 and in mid 1944 it was cancelled. It couldn't compete and the over-running of the factory (limiting actual production) may have been the last straw. I don't know about the politics of the decision, but it was axed. Same as any number of planes in WW2.
Why try and spin it, to save the feelings of the Hs-129? :confused:
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it would provide the Germans with an effective straffer-tank buster, which they lack entirely.
Particularly needed for a Kursk scenario.
As mentioned, the Hs-129 is not the solution to this problem. It was not the solution for the Germans, either.
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It's ok to say it's a good looking airplane and you think it would be fun to fly in AH :)
I think that was it's biggest problem for real. It looks better then it actually was!
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It's ok to say it's a good looking airplane and you think it would be fun to fly in AH :)
Yes, it's perfectly okay to say that!
But to claim we desperately need a 75mm PAK40 in-game to fill a gaping planeset hole? Not so much.
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It's usage in the arenas would be determined largely by whether it has F3 mode than any other variable.
Why? I flew the hurriD quite a bit before the 37mm were put on the IL2.... Tank plinking is addicting.
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Why? I flew the hurriD quite a bit before the 37mm were put on the IL2.... Tank plinking is addicting.
What you do =/= what everyone else does.
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Krusty, why are you so emphaticly opposed to the Hs 129? It meets addition criterion, it would give us something we don't have (multiple things infact: a German anti-tank strafer, a 30mm Mk 103-using aircraft (making addition of other 190F models easier), and a strafer firing 75mm AP).
It seems your only reason for being aginst it is that it wasn't historicly significant enough to suit your own personal (i.e., irrelevent) criterion.
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Yes, it's perfectly okay to say that!
But to claim we desperately need a 75mm PAK40 in-game to fill a gaping planeset hole? Not so much.
never said that, was implying it was interesting, but I'm good for any armament killing tanks.
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+1 anything new
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Uhhh... nope. P-40 production was "cancelled" too... It's not a technical term. It's basic English.
That's the production, order or contract being cancelled. Saying the aircraft was cancelled implies it didn't it make it to the production phase which is incorrect. It's remarkable that you're so condescending to people about their 'basic English' when your command of it is so poor.
Cancelled (Adjective): No longer planned or scheduled.
Discontinued (Adjective): Permanently no longer available or in production.
http://en.wiktionary.org
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Is anyone else wondering who put Krusty in charge of vetting all Wishlist requests?
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Is anyone else wondering who put Krusty in charge of vetting all Wishlist requests?
Krusty can give his opinions as much as he likes. HTC ultimately decides and we all know that.
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Krusty can give his opinions as much as he likes. HTC ultimately decides and we all know that.
Very good point! So he can safely be ignored? :banana:
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Very good point! So he can safely be ignored? :banana:
You can debate with him, just don't let it get too personal.
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I think it more likely we'd get the Ju 87G than the Hs 129. HTC can add that easily when they redo the dive bomber version and it does pretty much the same job scenario-wise as the 129. Given it's better cockpit visibility and I'd guess better turning ability it would probably be slightly less suicidal as an MA ride too.
BTW the Ju 88 also had instruments mounted on the engine nacelles.
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I wants my 75mm AP rounds!!!!! :cry :cry :cry
Gimme Gimme Gimme I NEED! I NEED! I NEED!!!
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See Rule #4
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The BK37 was never used. I believe only one or two airframes were even mocked up before that avenue of thought was throroughly discontinued, and they started planning for the 75mm gun instead.
(http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f147/Wmaker/BK37.jpg)
"Another weapons option was a 37mm BK 3.7 with 12 rounds in a gondola placed under the fuselage. This same weapon - a modified Flak 18 - was also fitted under the wings of the Junkers Ju 87G-1 Stuka."
Source: Henchel Hs 129 in action
Are you so sure about those 75mm guns being used?
Yes I am. Its use is well described in Martin Pegg's excellent book about the aircraft. For example, during one period during '45, 9 nine Soviet tanks were destroyed during the course of 14 sorties.
Um.... from the fact that they stopped building it. Do you know what cancelled means? It means "no longer wanted," "contractually discontinued," "production shut down, prematurely" or fill in any term you want to use.
By your logic every aircraft in the mankind's history of flight has been or will be 'cancelled'. :D You tried to make a point that Hs129 wasn't succesful and thus was cancelled. It simply is not the case. As I said, the biggest flaw of the Hs129 was that there wasn't enough of them. In the fall of '44 German bomber production was largely shut down aswell in favor of the fighter production. Doesn't mean that those bombers were unsuccesful either.
Depending how you count it, Hs129 was produced over 3,5 years.
I'll quote Mr. Pegg:
"Development problems are an inevitable part of the life of any aeroplane and frequently stimulate the most attention. This is certainly true in the case of the Hs 129 and although these were overcome through development, the aircraft has continued to be associated more with its early problems than with its later success."
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Many of the In Action books are inaccurate in many details. The 37mm wasn't used.
I thank you for the extra info on the 75mm. Good to know!
You are wrong on the following, though:
By your logic every aircraft in the mankind's history of flight has been or will be 'cancelled'. :D You tried to make a point that Hs129 wasn't succesful and thus was cancelled. It simply is not the case.
Your lack of English as a native language is creating an issue where there isn't one. Allow me to attempt to clarify. Henschel wasn't making money unless they were producing a plane. They didn't want to STOP production. They were told to from an outside authority. That is what we call being cancelled. IF, on the other hand, they decided of their own free will to stop producing it, that would be "discontinued." There is a difference in meaning.
P.S. I never said it was cancelled because it wasn't successful, just that when it was cancelled it was still unable to compete. The airframe remained unchanged for many years while ground targets leapt ahead light years in armor development. When the Hs-129 was developed, the Panzer IV F1/F2 was the biggest baddest thing on the battlefield. There's a big difference between this and the T-34/85, for example. It's like the Cr.42 being used in limited capacity up to 1943/44... Doesn't mean it could compete, just that they were desperate.
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Many of the In Action books are inaccurate in many details. The 37mm wasn't used.
I posted a photo of a 37mm armed Hs129 which clearly taken in the field conditions and you say it wasn't used? Did they photoshop that pic or what then? You keep saying it wasn't used and yet you are unable to provide any source to prove your stance and at the same time I just posted a photo which shows a 37mm equipped Hs129.
I couldn't care less if you in your personal universe think that it wasn't used. If you are certain it wasn't used I'm sure you can provide proof which says so and I'm sure this source of yours is also able to explain how the photo I posted is a fake. :D What are you waiting for, just post the source!
Not that it matters in the context of AH either way. I'd always take the MK103 in favor of the BK 3.7 anyway as the MK103 is already more than capable to penetrate the top armour of most tanks, carries 100 rounds of ammo instead of 12 and is lighter.
Henschel wasn't making money unless they were producing a plane. They didn't want to STOP production. They were told to from an outside authority. That is what we call being cancelled. IF, on the other hand, they decided of their own free will to stop producing it, that would be "discontinued." There is a difference in meaning.
Is this your own opinion or can you provide me with an actual source?
Martin Pegg's book has nice info on the halting of the production but I just don't have the energy to quote it because it really is useless knowing you anyway. Over thousand Hs129s were produced and they served with distinction...something which the winner's side of the history hasn't exactly potrayed in the light it deserves. Thanks for Martin Pegg's exhaustive research alot of those details have now been published.
P.S. I never said it was cancelled because it wasn't successful, just that when it was cancelled it was still unable to compete. The airframe remained unchanged for many years while ground targets leapt ahead light years in armor development. When the Hs-129 was developed, the Panzer IV F1/F2 was the biggest baddest thing on the battlefield. There's a big difference between this and the T-34/85, for example. It's like the Cr.42 being used in limited capacity up to 1943/44... Doesn't mean it could compete, just that they were desperate.
At first, the main armament was 20mm cannons and 50kg bombs. Later larger calibre weapons were developed and installed into it. I'd call that development. In real life the attack angles were a lot less shallow than in AH for example. In real life the attacks were performed from the sides and from the rear. The steep angles that many use in AH would have been quite hazardous. As I've already said, MK103 penetrates the roofs of most tanks (only Tiger I and II are excluded from this) in AH with ease.
And as far as competing in general, both the Martin Pegg's book and Kagero's operational history of the Hs129 are both filled with accounts how Hs129 alone halted Soviet armour offensives and left scenes where tens of tanks burning, T-34s, Klim Vorosilovs etc. Those accounts are too numerous to quote.
If people aren't willing to dig any deeper than to the popular "commonly accepted" history for this aircraft, there's not much I can say to convince anyone. And I don't really care one way or the other, the information has been published and it is the physical parameters which deside what kind of aircraft it would be in AH. And in many way it would compare favourably to the Il-2 with 37mm cannons in AH. Weather people are willing to learn or not is another matter.
Books:
Hs129 in Combat by Kagero publications
Hs129 PANZERJÄGER! by Martin Pegg
Hs129 in action
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You can debate with him, just don't let it get too personal.
In all honesty I think it's more fitting if I just ignored him. Thanks for the advice though :salute
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Wmaker... a picture of a guy standing next to a plane is your proof? Proof that the gun was fitted or tested, but not that it was used, and not clear evidence of any field use. Not proof that it was put into production in any numbers.
Here's a picture of some guys standing next to an Argus-powered Hs-129... Surely that's proof it's was the main version that saw service? No? It didn't see any? But they're in uniform!
(http://i286.photobucket.com/albums/ll105/jg54Grunherz/Henschel%20Hs-129/Hs129A-0.jpg)
You see how that does not work with any sort of logic? That's why your picture is no proof of any kind.
Let's show the rest of the page that photo comes from:
(http://i286.photobucket.com/albums/ll105/jg54Grunherz/Henschel%20Hs-129/Hs129B-3comBK37fotosyplan.jpg)
That's hardly indicative of field use.
You like to pick fights and argue. You take data -- just enough data -- to try and pick a fight without always backing it up. Sometimes you're right, and when you're not you get really combatitive because you know you don't have much wiggle room.
Your photo, for example. You say that's proof. Seriously? You yourself showed the math that the 30mm were getting the job done (thanks for the clarification by the way). The 37mm wasn't part of the equation. The handful of 75mm saw combat, but again only a handful were being tested. The majority of the airframes making all those late-war kills must have been armed with the Mk103 gunpods.
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Is anyone else wondering who put Krusty in charge of vetting all Wishlist requests?
That's my job.
wrongway
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Wmaker... a picture of a guy standing next to a plane is your proof?
What the guy is wearing and his general appearance and what that particular plane looks like is my proof that the photo is taken from the field. You, yourself initially said:
Yes both the Mk101 and Mk103 were fitted, but the common majority were these 30mm guns. The BK37 was never used. I believe only one or two airframes were even mocked up before that avenue of thought was throroughly discontinued, and they started planning for the 75mm gun instead.
That's not a mockup in the photo, it's an actual cannon. Never said it was used in large numbers.
Also, believe it or not, I take the caption of any publication over your drivel any day of the week. Anyway, as I said, weather BK 3.7 would be a loadout or not in the possible AH incarnation of the Hs129 I really wouldn't care either way. MK103 would perform better in AH anyway.
We can of course compare certain loadouts already in AH. For example, Il-2's 37mm load was used experimentally by 96 planes during the august of '43. Pretty small % considering the numbers of il-2s produced.
You like to pick fights and argue. You take data -- just enough data -- to try and pick a fight without always backing it up. Sometimes you're right, and when you're not you get really combatitive because you know you don't have much wiggle room.
This is hilariously ironic coming from you.
The only main cannon I'd ever use would be the MK103. 100 rounds in a single center-line cannon would be very nice to use when mounted to an aircraft which is a great gun platform largely due to counter rotating props.
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So you're nitpicking my use of "mocked up"? I didn't mean a fake gun. The Germans put enough random guns on enough random test frames. To mock something up for me is to put it together quickly to see what it's like. I'm not talking paper mache, or wooden decoys like the AVG used. I fully realize it's a real gun in that picture. That doesn't negate the fact that it was not a production setup, which you know and are trying to avoid.
I'll tell you why it doesn't prove to be a "field" use, as well. Its caption tells us nothing. It just says there's a BK3,7 on an Hs129. The caption does not say it was in use nor that it was seen outside of the photo there. It's also a war-time photo. Every capable man of fighting age (and even children too young -- Hitler Youth!) was put in a uniform. There are going to be guards at any airfield. Somebody somewhere is going to want his photo taken. Even if he has nothing to do with the plane itself. There is no identifying indicator anywhere in that photo. You can't see the field, the location, any indicators. It might as well be at Rechlin!
You may have not been saying they saw much use, but the way you've been fighting over the matter you imply that's what you think. Your own comment: "I posted a photo of a 37mm armed Hs129 which clearly taken in the field conditions and you say it wasn't used?" implies you think I'm wrong and is suggesting your stance is that they WERE used. Everything you've posted suggests you're taking the opposite stance I was taking.
Aside from some additional info on the PAK40/BK7,5 you have only been nit-picking my choice of words? Okay. Nitpick what you want, but unless you think the BK3,7 was put in production and you think the Hs129 was built until the end of the war, my 2 points remain true: The BK3,7 wasn't used, and the HS129 production was cancelled.
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See Rule #4
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So you're nitpicking my use of "mocked up"? I didn't mean a fake gun.
Heh, and it's me who doesn't understand english. :D
You aren't worth communicating to.
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See Rules #2, #4
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To others...
Regarding the BK 3.7...
It was indeed found in testing that it caused adverse effects to the flying qualities of the Hs129. But as can be seen it was fitted to the aircraft instead of "never used".
Anyway, advantages the Hs129 would offer compared to the Il-2 for example:
- Two air cooled engines instead of single liquid cooled one.
- Centerline main weapon (MK103) with 100 rounds. No convergence issues, ie. nice for opening up against flaks from longer ranges. Better accuracy, less ammo wasted.
- 20mm cannons for dealing with softer targets such as LVTs, M18s, M3s and aircraft...no need to waste precious main gun ammo for those.
- Counter rotating props eliminate many of the slipping/nose swaying problems of a single engined aircraft such as the Il-2 and make for a very good gun platform. Also it gives a better low speed aileron authority compared to the Il-2.
Btw, I quickly looked for the ignore feature and couldn't find it. Does the BBS still feature it?
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To others...
Regarding the BK 3.7...
It was indeed found in testing that it caused adverse effects to the flying qualities of the Hs129. But as can be seen it was fitted to the aircraft instead of "never used".
So the argument for inclusion of this weapon load out is it was fitted, tested, and found unsatisfactory?
Isn't that like asking for the Super Pershing with the 90mm T15E1. One was produced and saw combat....
wrongway
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BK-37 isn't really needed for the Hs-129. The Mk 103 30mm would probably be effective enough to take out panzers and T-34's.
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So the argument for inclusion of this weapon load out is it was fitted, tested, and found unsatisfactory?
Isn't that like asking for the Super Pershing with the 90mm T15E1. One was produced and saw combat....
wrongway
It was produced, it saw combat. include it! :old:
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So the argument for inclusion of this weapon load out is it was fitted, tested, and found unsatisfactory?
Isn't that like asking for the Super Pershing with the 90mm T15E1. One was produced and saw combat....
wrongway
[Edit #2: comment edited.... Now you know how he is. It's self evident without me adding to it.]
EDIT: In my defense, I'm sure almost any adult American has heard the term "to mock up a prototype" or something similar in the business field, or at work, or even with whatever hobby they have. It definitely does not mean to fake it.
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[Edit #2: comment edited.... Now you know how he is. It's self evident without me adding to it.]
EDIT: In my defense, I'm sure almost any adult American has heard the term "to mock up a prototype" or something similar in the business field, or at work, or even with whatever hobby they have. It definitely does not mean to fake it.
There is a HUGE difference between a mock up and prototype. I suggest a dictionary.
A mock up would be a life size scale model. It would may or may not be built with materials designed for production. If it were a car it would be used to wind tunnel test, test ergonomics, ensure parts fit properly.
A prototype is built after the mock up stage here is the key diff. It operates under its own power with the intended propulsion system and production materials.
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- Centerline main weapon (MK103) with 100 rounds. No convergence issues, ie. nice for opening up against flaks from longer ranges. Better accuracy, less ammo wasted.
- Counter rotating props eliminate many of the slipping/nose swaying problems of a single engined aircraft such as the Il-2 and make for a very good gun platform. Also it gives a better low speed aileron authority compared to the Il-2.
I think it sounds very interesting, especially the above two points. I might take up ground attack if it gets added.
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Mock-up
(http://i836.photobucket.com/albums/zz281/Megalodon2/hs129-1.jpg)
Real In the Air
(http://i836.photobucket.com/albums/zz281/Megalodon2/hs129.jpg)
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Looks like a very heavily armoured cockpit.
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Real In the Air
(http://i836.photobucket.com/albums/zz281/Megalodon2/hs129.jpg)
Actually that in-flight photo is with the wooden mock-u aswell.
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BK-37 isn't really needed for the Hs-129. The Mk 103 30mm would probably be effective enough to take out panzers and T-34's.
YES
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See Rule #4
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See Rule #4
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I ask is a prototype the same as mock up?
I await your response.
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See Rule #4
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See Rule #4
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prototypes never survive first contact witi the user
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I'll make it simple.
You are being charged by a lion. Do you want...
A. A mock up of a rifle.
B. A prototype of a rifle.
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C. A Suzuki GSXR1100
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See Rule #4
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See Rule #4
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See Rules #2, #4
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Any information on the rate of fire of the various weapons?
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See Rule #4
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Translated for the rest of us :rofl
But there is no dispute that the 75-mm version was fielded?
How many and why was it found unsatisfactory?
wrongway
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See Rule #4
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See Rule #4
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I don't think the info is in the thread. Frankly it has been refuted and asserted to the point that it's not obvious what is reliable. Perhaps this has been the point?
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Krusty, sorry, but if the Glostor Metor never having shot down an enemy aircraft in combat (note: aircraft, not guided bomb) doesn't disqualify it from being in the game, low production numbers, and relative lack of use shouldn't keep the Hs 129 out of the game.
You don't like us talking about the BK 37? Fine, say it wasn't used, and then offer an alternative if it existed *cough*Mk 103*cough*.
Point is stop being so dismisive of the aircraft. It would be a better use of HTC's time than about 1/2 the EW crap that almost never gets flown.
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I don't think Krusty is saying it isn't a valid addition. I think he is saying it isn't a very useful addition.
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Ah, but that simply isn't the case. It would offer Il-2 style tank busting at longer ranges (due to the center line mounting) with probably a bit better survivability.
Hs 129 with the 75mm firing AP would probably be even better, preformance drop be damned. No other aerial cannon could offer the ability to one-shot tanks from the front. It could even kill the King Tiger without having to aim for specific weak spots.
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See Rule #4
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It wouldn't really be leathal as the NS-37. IIRC, it would be comperable to the 40mm Vickers S Gun on the hurricane IID.
Good aginst Panzer IV F's, and other light armored/soft targets, but a T-34 would probably be safe for the most part.
And the TseTse was being considered apparently, perhaps still is, yet the low production numbers of only 18 were built and 27 total aircraft built/converted didn't seem to disqualify it.
Also, I remember Pyro or one of the HTC crew saying that as long as individual weapons are correct for an aircraft variant, overall use of those weapons, and wether or not multiple weapons were used in combination is ignored.
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Effect on the game is considered though and if the Hs129 with the 75mm cannon would have a substantially negative effect on the tank game, plinking highly perked Tiger IIs with reasonable expectation of success for example, it very well could be left out.
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Krusty, sorry, but if the Glostor Metor never having shot down an enemy aircraft in combat (note: aircraft, not guided bomb) doesn't disqualify it from being in the game, low production numbers, and relative lack of use shouldn't keep the Hs 129 out of the game.
You don't like us talking about the BK 37? Fine, say it wasn't used, and then offer an alternative if it existed *cough*Mk 103*cough*.
Point is stop being so dismisive of the aircraft. It would be a better use of HTC's time than about 1/2 the EW crap that almost never gets flown.
That I would disagree with. There are things going on in AH beyond the MA and those early war birds get used. While I have no problem with the HS-129, you seem to forget that while it's up and about lugging a 75mm cannon in your vision, there will be guys in other birds saying, 'easy kill' when they see it. And I don't think the tankers will have a problem with fighter guys clobbering it when they see it out to shoot tanks.
I would speculate that it would get about as much use if not less then those 'early war' birds you refer to.
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Effect on the game is considered though and if the Hs129 with the 75mm cannon would have a substantially negative effect on the tank game, plinking highly perked Tiger IIs with reasonable expectation of success for example, it very well could be left out.
Perfect excuse to implement perked ordnance load outs. Something that would be usefull, and we get a 2 fer 1 with this.
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There were about 25 Hs-129B-3's that cane from the factory, delivered. A few more B-2's that were field mods.
There were about 200 109F-4 that came from the factory with gondolas, we cant have those..... so I wouldnt count on the 75mm Hs-129.
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Just to be annoying, here is another pic of the 3,7cm Hs-129:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TGcmOGbhKqA&feature=related (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TGcmOGbhKqA&feature=related)
2:41
Or just give the Ju-88 its twin 3,7cm option... it would still be more survivable than the Stuka.