Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: chipr on November 13, 2011, 04:20:40 AM
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Since I started playing about 4 months ago, I've only flown American planes with exception to the jet planes and only been with the Bish in the MA. If I fly an allied plane, i.e Spit 9, it has to have the USA insignia. My squaddies say that I'm missing out on planes that may better suit my style. My rebuttal is, "who won the war again?". I know there are tons of benefits from flying the axis planes, u can find out the strengths and weaknesses firsthand.
Is there any others like me? I truly doubt it.
chipr
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Since I started playing about 4 months ago, I've only flown American planes with exception to the jet planes and only been with the Bish in the MA. If I fly an allied plane, i.e Spit 9, it has to have the USA insignia. My squaddies say that I'm missing out on planes that may better suit my style. My rebuttal is, "who won the war again?". I know there are tons of benefits from flying the axis planes, u can find out the strengths and weaknesses firsthand.
Is there any others like me? I truly doubt it.
chipr
ib4luftweeniesclaiminggermanironisbetter.
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*sigh* who won the war?
Millions of innocents murdered by all sides in their "richeous" intents and means.
Thousands upon thousands of merchant mariners who met their end at the end of the others guns and torpedos?
Countless unknown massacres and hate driven acts of revenge.
Shattered economies, destroyed heritages, decimated cultures.
A generation of emotionally scarred and depraved people.
How could of anyone won? Everybody lost; its just a manner and question of how much they lost.
If your flying because of some illusion of a countries agenda, that might be fun, yes; but we are (mostly) men here and we fly what we think looks the coolest and sexiest beast we can get our hands on. We arn't here in memorial and continuance of the greivances of war, nor to remember specific people lost in it. We are here to fly planes and you won't get the most out of your experience here unless you remember that!
Some like the 190, some like the mustang, others like the Spitfire; but who knows? It may be a genetic thing? Whos to say?
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Since I started playing about 4 months ago, I've only flown American planes with exception to the jet planes and only been with the Bish in the MA. If I fly an allied plane, i.e Spit 9, it has to have the USA insignia. My squaddies say that I'm missing out on planes that may better suit my style. My rebuttal is, "who won the war again?". I know there are tons of benefits from flying the axis planes, u can find out the strengths and weaknesses firsthand.
Is there any others like me? I truly doubt it.
chipr
Who cares what you fly or why you like to fly it? As long as you enjoy what you fly, that's all that matters.
ack-ack
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*sigh* who won the war?
Millions of innocents murdered by all sides in their "richeous" intents and means.
Thousands upon thousands of merchant mariners who met their end at the end of the others guns and torpedos?
Countless unknown massacres and hate driven acts of revenge.
Shattered economies, destroyed heritages, decimated cultures.
A generation of emotionally scarred and depraved people.
How could of anyone won? Everybody lost; its just a manner and question of how much they lost.
If your flying because of some illusion of a countries agenda, that might be fun, yes; but we are (mostly) men here and we fly what we think looks the coolest and sexiest beast we can get our hands on. We arn't here in memorial and continuance of the greivances of war, nor to remember specific people lost in it. We are here to fly planes and you won't get the most out of your experience here unless you remember that!
Some like the 190, some like the mustang, others like the Spitfire; but who knows? It may be a genetic thing? Whos to say?
calm down, buddy. you totally took my message the wrong way.
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I never fly German Planes because they smell of sausages and beer :old:
I lie stuka because they have a big fat bomb :) and a poo gun :)
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Who cares what you fly or why you like to fly it? As long as you enjoy what you fly, that's all that matters.
ack-ack
Can you say, dbag?
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:rofl
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I don't think that just because a certain set of planes were on the winning side you should only fly that set. But you pay your money and I don't care what you fly.
Ive flown every plane in this game and each has their own reason and can be fun. Yes you should get out and try the others, but keep in mind this isn't AvA arena either everyones is fighting with everything.
So I would think you'd be the only one who limits yourself to just allied planes or any set to be exact. I love the Brew, but it I'm goin to chase bombers Ill up a 152 ora K4, then turn around and up a A6m3 to fight of a cv.
Diversity is your firend, and maybe just maybe cut back on the drama just a bit. Its a game not a reality show.....
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I don't think that just because a certain set of planes were on the winning side you should only fly that set. But you pay your money and I don't care what you fly.
Ive flown every plane in this game and each has their own reason and can be fun. Yes you should get out and try the others, but keep in mind this isn't AvA arena either everyones is fighting with everything.
So I would think you'd be the only one who limits yourself to just allied planes or any set to be exact. I love the Brew, but it I'm goin to chase bombers Ill up a 152 ora K4, then turn around and up a A6m3 to fight of a cv.
Diversity is your firend, and maybe just maybe cut back on the drama just a bit. Its a game not a reality show.....
Roger that, good points.
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the op used misleading words in the title of his post...very far removed from "a dying breed" in actuality. and the whole "who won the war" bit...puhleeez. :rolleyes:
so you have picked a set of toys to play with and you choose not to broaden your experiences, some do, some don't...everyone has their favorites. it's no big deal and definitely not worthy of any forum drama.
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i started playing the spit9 , later the spit8 and finally i broaden my experience with the pony. am I missing on any part of the game? I dont think so. as the only part of the game I wish to participate is the fun part. I dont really care if the fun part is with the pony or the 109, as long as I have fun, well there it is.
semp
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If you want to fly for the side with the largest contribution to winning the war, you ought to be flying Soviet aircraft.
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Is there any others like me? I truly doubt it.
chipr
Nope, you stand out in this crowd.
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Nope, you stand out in this crowd.
:lol
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Many are proud Americans and true patriots that play this game. That is not what draws us here. Our common love of aviation and admiration of those who fought in the skies brings us together.
Learning is important. What are the capabilities of specific aircraft? Knowing strengths and weaknesses could help you fly your American plane better, but it sounds like you have to prove your patriotism in the virtual skies of AH. That is really not necessary.
If flying American birds makes you happy, then great, stay your course. America had some fantastic aircraft. Saying your the only true patriot (or the last of a dying breed), because of that is total hooey.
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I truly dont care what you fly as long it isn't a fudging Brewster :mad:
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Makes mental note to irritate Jo by flying a brewster :devil
Wurz ;)
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Makes mental note to irritate Jo by flying a brewster :devil
Wurz ;)
:lol how you been wurz?
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You may think Allied Aircraft were superior and that's why they won but when the AVG faced the zero in their P-40s it was superior tactics and Pilot training that won the Day. The better Cartoon Pilot will usually win no matter what they fly. :joystick:
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Been good fella, actually got to fly the last couple of days - which has been fun.
Got a different car yet? and how ya doing?
Wurz
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Makes mental note to irritate Jo by flying a brewster :devil
Wurz ;)
Yes :)
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Since I started playing about 4 months ago, I've only flown American planes with exception to the jet planes and only been with the Bish in the MA. If I fly an allied plane, i.e Spit 9, it has to have the USA insignia. My squaddies say that I'm missing out on planes that may better suit my style. My rebuttal is, "who won the war again?". I know there are tons of benefits from flying the axis planes, u can find out the strengths and weaknesses firsthand.
Is there any others like me? I truly doubt it.
chipr
yeah the allies won the war,but the pilots in those planes won the battles-the spitfire won the battle of brittian,,becase they had homefield advantage-if the german pilots didn't have to fly so far,the outcome may have been different in the air war with brittian..just because your an american doesen't mean you have to fly amer planes..they r just saying have more fun experiment..also fly other planes will help you understand how they work in combat,when youre flying against them--true i primarly fly 51'd's but my main tank is a panzer and sometimes i use a panther.if you want find out how good u r, fly against the player-named midway--his main ride is a spit.
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*sigh* who won the war?
Millions of innocents murdered by all sides in their "richeous" intents and means.
Thousands upon thousands of merchant mariners who met their end at the end of the others guns and torpedos?
Countless unknown massacres and hate driven acts of revenge.
Shattered economies, destroyed heritages, decimated cultures.
A generation of emotionally scarred and depraved people.
How could of anyone won? Everybody lost; its just a manner and question of how much they lost.
If your flying because of some illusion of a countries agenda, that might be fun, yes; but we are (mostly) men here and we fly what we think looks the coolest and sexiest beast we can get our hands on. We arn't here in memorial and continuance of the greivances of war, nor to remember specific people lost in it. We are here to fly planes and you won't get the most out of your experience here unless you remember that!
Some like the 190, some like the mustang, others like the Spitfire; but who knows? It may be a genetic thing? Whos to say?
amen
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Been good fella, actually got to fly the last couple of days - which has been fun.
Got a different car yet? and how ya doing?
Wurz
ah yes im selling my police car...parents chipped in and bought me a 04 chevy 2500
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You may think Allied Aircraft were superior and that's why they won but when the AVG faced the zero in their P-40s it was superior tactics and Pilot training that won the Day. The better Cartoon Pilot will usually win no matter what they fly. :joystick:
Thats true. American Iron wasnt necessarily the best planes in the air. With that being said, the pilots were heads and shoulders above most axis pilots.
My apologies for sounding narcasistic <misspelled>. Maybe had I put a ? after the subject and I should have ended my op with are there others like me and cut out the "i doubt it" part. But eh, it was early in the AM when I was browsing the forum and leaving my 2 cents everywhere.
Sorry for the confusion, that was not my intent.
chipr
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I'm the opposite of you, not for political reasons or because I'm taking sides or trying to fight a war that's long since over and done with. It's because I'm part of a comparatively very tiny group of people (in AH and outside of it) who know... what the Luftwaffe pilots went through, their professionalism and courage as well as their sense of duty (ranging from political fanatics to those opposing the regime). They had to endure severe lack of support, even betrayal and counter-productive measures from the highest political level of their so called "leadership".
This, we not only respect but also honor by flying and representing them in games like AH. We love you guys too, who are opposing us, because without you we would not have the experts on the other side to fight and learn from. And I must say that it's total bull that you have to fly the planes of the 'other team' in order to learn them thoroughly and their weaknesses. It totally suffice to know the weakness of the pilot flying the plane and that has little if anything to do with the type. All you need to know, is displayed before you in a fight.
Fly the planes you want to learn thoroughly, and become a expert in due time. Flying other types only mess with your process of learning that type. So do it the way that suits you best, and have fun.
I :salute all who do this and have much respect for you all, regardless of what type of plane is 'your' type. Because we share the passion for flying. I distance myself from all hatred and politically sourced enthusiasm for destruction, if you are a hater you are not my friend. If you fly allied planes and hate the axis (pilots, planes or whatever) you are no better than those you hate, think about that. Oppression is available in all colors.
Here's to the good fights, the ruthless fights, to those who realize that this is just a game. That the fact that we fly is in itself in remembrance of those who did this for real. :cheers: :cheers:
(http://www.aviation-arthouse.com/watermark3.php?i=78)
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I truly dont care what you fly as long it isn't a fudging Brewster :mad:
;) just for you.......
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yeah the allies won the war,but the pilots in those planes won the battles-the spitfire won the battle of brittian,,becase they had homefield advantage-if the german pilots didn't have to fly so far,the outcome may have been different in the air war with brittian..just because your an american doesen't mean you have to fly amer planes..they r just saying have more fun experiment..also fly other planes will help you understand how they work in combat,when youre flying against them--true i primarly fly 51'd's but my main tank is a panzer and sometimes i use a panther.if you want find out how good u r, fly against the player-named midway--his main ride is a spit.
Did you read what you wrote before you posted it?
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Since I started playing about 4 months ago, I've only flown American planes with exception to the jet planes and only been with the Bish in the MA. If I fly an allied plane, i.e Spit 9, it has to have the USA insignia. My squaddies say that I'm missing out on planes that may better suit my style. My rebuttal is, "who won the war again?". I know there are tons of benefits from flying the axis planes, u can find out the strengths and weaknesses firsthand.
Is there any others like me? I truly doubt it.
chipr
I can't fly Japanese, Royal, or Russian...
I fly German and United States...
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I can't fly Japanese, Royal, or Russian...
I fly German and United States...
Why so, if I may ask?
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You may think Allied Aircraft were superior and that's why they won but when the AVG faced the zero in their P-40s it was superior tactics and Pilot training that won the Day. The better Cartoon Pilot will usually win no matter what they fly. :joystick:
japanese had better trained pilots earlier in the war. most grew up flying airplanes from a young age. and the p40 sucked as compared to the japanese, read the book by the best japanese pilot and see what they thought of the p40's and their training.
semp
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Question chipr, how does the Allies/Soviets winning the war through about 6:1 numbers advantage prove the superiority of their aircraft?
If anything, the Axis not only holding out, but making advances against those odds would argue the exact opposite.
I fly the 109, and I only realy and truly fear 3 planes, and 2 of them only under certian circumstances:
P-38 (when flown well, as odds are its either AKAK or a SAPP'er at the stick)
F4U (when well flown, since they can be a real female-dog to handle when well flown)
And finally, the only other plane I truely dread encountering in the MA's is..... The Ta-152, since 90% of the ones you see are flown by aces.
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I ain't afraid of any plane except for the one that's above me ;)
American rides are my go-to set as well, but I feel like I have more fun or a more rewarding experience when I fly German or a C2.
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Thats true. American Iron wasnt necessarily the best planes in the air. With that being said, the pilots were heads and shoulders above most axis pilots.
:huh :headscratch:
Uhhhh, OK........
Possibly that was true in the last year or so of the war, but that's only because the top Axis pilots had all been killed. For the first 3 years of the US's involvement in WWII, our pilots, with few exceptions, were in the fight of their lives against pilots with far more experience and greater skills than many/most of them.
<---- No rose colored glasses
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I generally prefer British and Japanese planes, but there is nothing I can't or won't fly.
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:huh :headscratch:
Uhhhh, OK........
Possibly that was true in the last year or so of the war, but that's only because the top Axis pilots had all been killed. For the first 3 years of the US's involvement in WWII, our pilots, with few exceptions, were in the fight of their lives against pilots with far more experience and greater skills than many/most of them.
<---- No rose colored glasses
Walter Nowotny, just saying.....
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Did you read what you wrote before you posted it?
no sir i did not-krap i forgot the russian's--where did i screwup?and i don't hate anybody,in the game or in real life..im not saying germans had bad pilots or bad planes,i'm just saying they had a harder time fighting against england because they had to fly farther to the fight than the brits did when they were escorting bombers.i'm sure there were excellant pilots and crews...maybe i should just shut up now.but meant no disrespect to anyone from any country.then or now.
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So, this Chipr guy, he's a plant right?
:O
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So, this Chipr guy, he's a plant right?
:O
$5 says hes Skuzzy :noid.
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Question chipr, how does the Allies/Soviets winning the war through about 6:1 numbers advantage prove the superiority of their aircraft?
If anything, the Axis not only holding out, but making advances against those odds would argue the exact opposite.
I fly the 109, and I only realy and truly fear 3 planes, and 2 of them only under certian circumstances:
P-38 (when flown well, as odds are its either AKAK or a SAPP'er at the stick)
F4U (when well flown, since they can be a real female-dog to handle when well flown)
And finally, the only other plane I truely dread encountering in the MA's is..... The Ta-152, since 90% of the ones you see are flown by aces.
Do understand that when the LW was 'winning' they had more planes and better trained pilots too. What goes around and all that.
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Thats true. American Iron wasnt necessarily the best planes in the air. With that being said, the pilots were heads and shoulders above most axis pilots.
chipr
aaannnd again...where do you get these silly ideas? you're a penguin shade aren't you?
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Since I started playing about 4 months ago, I've only flown American planes with exception to the jet planes and only been with the Bish in the MA. If I fly an allied plane, i.e Spit 9, it has to have the USA insignia. My squaddies say that I'm missing out on planes that may better suit my style. My rebuttal is, "who won the war again?". I know there are tons of benefits from flying the axis planes, u can find out the strengths and weaknesses firsthand.
Is there any others like me? I truly doubt it.
chipr
I try to stick to allied planes, but as long as it does not have a swastika on it I'm good.
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I try to stick to allied planes, but as long as it does not have a swastika on it I'm good.
Don't worry, we'll soon seduce you into the 109. Even AKAK had admited its fun to fly :devil.
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Since I started playing about 4 months ago, I've only flown American planes with exception to the jet planes and only been with the Bish in the MA. If I fly an allied plane, i.e Spit 9, it has to have the USA insignia. My squaddies say that I'm missing out on planes that may better suit my style. My rebuttal is, "who won the war again?". I know there are tons of benefits from flying the axis planes, u can find out the strengths and weaknesses firsthand.
Is there any others like me? I truly doubt it.
chipr
It is personal preferences. I love flying the P-47D-25. That is what i fly the most and yet some people think I have ACM skills bombing the crap out of GVs. Sigh! Sigh!
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Don't worry, we'll soon seduce you into the 109. Even AKAK had admited its fun to fly :devil.
:rofl
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The Western Black Rhino recently died too.
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The Western Black Rhino recently died too.
Damn poachers and idiots who make it profitable thinking that ground up rhino horn (basically the same stuff as fingernails) will make little willy harder and last longer.
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The Western Black Rhino recently died too.
Died? Do you mean extinct? One year survey is not a final result to deteriming if they are extinct. Technically, it takes up to five years of survey to finalize thier statues.
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Since I started playing about 4 months ago, I've only flown American planes with exception to the jet planes and only been with the Bish in the MA. If I fly an allied plane, i.e Spit 9, it has to have the USA insignia. My squaddies say that I'm missing out on planes that may better suit my style. My rebuttal is, "who won the war again?". I know there are tons of benefits from flying the axis planes, u can find out the strengths and weaknesses firsthand.
Is there any others like me? I truly doubt it.
chipr
First off Ack-Ack was on your side of the argument and secondly...its your $15 a month you fly whatever the heck you want to whenever you want to and tell the rest of the "crowd" to blast off!
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Died? Do you mean extinct? One year survey is not a final result to deteriming if they are extinct. Technically, it takes up to five years of survey to finalize thier statues.
The last of a breed, just like chipr.
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The last of a breed, just like chipr.
I will give you that.
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Chipr, be not afraid my friend, the ignoramus is still thriving in society. Your breed is far from extinct. :rolleyes:
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we all know that hitler was to stupid to put he he177 into mass production to winz the war :devil
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we all know that hitler was to stupid to put he he177 into mass production to winz the war :devil
Don't forget the thousands of Maus tanks also.
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I fly pretty much just Japanese aircraft now. That is mainly because growing up the Japanese air war, other than comments like "the Zeke burned and was a POS and that's why they lost", the plight of the Japanese was largely a mystery to me. Not as much has been written on them, compared to the other countries.
I do get taken back a little by folks who only fly one plane because they heard it won the war.
Through my reading and to some extent playing this game, ive learned that the "paper" stats of an airplane matter the least. And will venture to state that "straight line speed" is the most useless and miss leading stat that is often quoted in regards to flying/fighting in this game.
Ki-43....Banzai!
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My rebuttal is, "who won the war again?".
80% or more of the war in Europe was between Germany and the Soviet Union (as measured by number of soldiers, number of tanks, number of aircraft, number of guns, number of casualties, sizes of battles, or terrain involved, or any combination of those).
You should fly the Soviet planes some of the time, then. ;)
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Communist propoganda!! Lies! The Russians never fought a single notable battle in that war!
:noid :bolt:
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Not true, they just never won a notable battle without a substantial lead in numbers.
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Not true, they just never won a notable battle without a substancial lead in numbers.
you talk like your lips don't fit.
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you talk like your lips don't fit.
Commenting on my spelling, I assume?
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Not true, they just never won a notable battle without a substancial lead in numbers.
Neither did the Luftwaffe.
That's that same stupid revisionist history bit where the glorious LW outnumbered and out gunned somehow with the greatest pilots the world has ever seen, took on the numerically advantaged Allies and blah blah blah.
The Luftwaffe won the battles where they had more and better planes and more experienced pilots. When the roles got reversed they got their rear ends kicked too. Irony is they started it with all the advantages, couldn't win it, and got their backsides handed to them when the other side got it's act together.
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Neither did the Luftwaffe.
That's that same stupid revisionist history bit where the glorious LW outnumbered and out gunned somehow with the greatest pilots the world has ever seen, took on the numerically advantaged Allies and blah blah blah.
The Luftwaffe won the battles where they had more and better planes and more experienced pilots. When the roles got reversed they got their rear ends kicked too. Irony is they started it with all the advantages, couldn't win it, and got their backsides handed to them when the other side got it's act together.
I think the part you are all missing, is whomever has more toys wins the fight.... in the beginning it was the Germans, once they took on the Russians, it soon became the Allies.
More toys = win!
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I think the part you are all missing, is whomever has more toys wins the fight.... in the beginning it was the Germans, once they took on the Russians, it soon became the Allies.
More toys = win!
Exactly. Where we play a game where a fair fight should be part of the deal, when it was real life and death. no one was concerned about fairness.
I think it's fair to say that any country with pilots produced good ones. They made do with what they had and those with the most experienced and well trained pilots and quality aircraft at the end, won.
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hey made do with what they had and those with the most experienced and well trained pilots and quality aircraft at the end, won.
This is where we disagree, you could be the best fighter pilot in the world, if your out numbered greater than 2x or in a poor position, your dead... Skill won't make up for numbers. Well maybe if your in a f16 and they are in ww1 biplanes....
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Having numbers is one advantage for sure, but it's not the only advantage that can exist. There were major battles where the outnumbered side did well (German invasion of France, Battle of Britain, defense of Malta, AVG, early stages of battles of Finns vs. Soviets, etc.)
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This is where we disagree, you could be the best fighter pilot in the world, if your out numbered greater than 2x or in a poor position, your dead... Skill won't make up for numbers. Well maybe if your in a f16 and they are in ww1 biplanes....
I was agreeing with you bunnies :)
At the beginning the LW had the largest batch of operational experienced pilots. By the end the Allies had the largest batch of experienced operational pilots. My point being the same as yours
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I was agreeing with you bunnies :)
:aok ahh
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This is where we disagree, you could be the best fighter pilot in the world, if your out numbered greater than 2x or in a poor position, your dead... Skill won't make up for numbers. Well maybe if your in a f16 and they are in ww1 biplanes....
Ehm not as sure.
The only hungarian fighter group was the 101st Puma (Cougar) squadron, formed in '42. They never had more than 26 pilots in the same time.
They were operational from Stalingrad to Kursk: downed 132 russian planes while lost only 20, also only 6 pilots died. Axixs did not had numerican superiority then...
In '44 summer the americans were doing bombing raids to my country. Tipically once a week, like 500-900 bombers escorted by 100-250 ponies and 38s. This squadron downed 110 heavies and 56 fighters while only lost 10 pilots. True, they had german help during this time, but never could get more than 60 pilots together.
Later, the russians became the major threat again. 156 Kills, 21 deaths. As you see, not as imperssive, as the russian numbers were getting more overhelming and we lost a couple ace pilots.
Grand total 454 downed enemy aircraft for losing 37 pilots and about 60 aircrafts (not sure)... all in the late war, against the russian horde.
Be a wolf. Fly Luftwaffe.
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My rebuttal is, "who won the war again?".
That would be the allies. Are you truely so ignorant to belive America won WWII alone?
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Ehm not as sure.
The only hungarian fighter group was the 101st Puma (Cougar) squadron, formed in '42. They never had more than 26 pilots in the same time.
They were operational from Stalingrad to Kursk: downed 132 russian planes while lost only 20, also only 6 pilots died. Axixs did not had numerican superiority then...
In '44 summer the americans were doing bombing raids to my country. Tipically once a week, like 500-900 bombers escorted by 100-250 ponies and 38s. This squadron downed 110 heavies and 56 fighters while only lost 10 pilots. True, they had german help during this time, but never could get more than 60 pilots together.
Later, the russians became the major threat again. 156 Kills, 21 deaths. As you see, not as imperssive, as the russian numbers were getting more overhelming and we lost a couple ace pilots.
Grand total 454 downed enemy aircraft for losing 37 pilots... all in the late war, against the russian horde.
Be a wolf. Fly Luftwaffe.
Did they win the battle? Always take the claims numbers with a grain of salt too regardless of what country. It makes for better propaganda if the other guy has all the advantages.
Look at how you wrote it. The impression would be these 26 pilots took on 500-900 USAAF bombers and 100-250 escorts at a time and came out on top. A quick glance at the 15th AF history shows 8 trips to Hungary from June 1st to the end of August 44. Your numbers suggest that one squadron alone knocked down 20+ USAAF birds every trip.
A quick check of the MACR (Missing Air Crew reports) shows 28 fighters and bombers not returning from those 8 missions to Hungary. There is an MACR for every USAAF bird lost in combat giving the details on the loss.
Everybody over claimed. Look at the AVG claims and the Japanese claims in China. They're crazy off. Folks have researched both sides and it's downright silly in retrospect. A classic example. February 25, 1942. Three AVG pilots claimed 5 Japanese fighters. There were no Japanese losses. Even worse the Japanese claimed 25 Allied planes shot down. Later that same day the AVG claimed 21 fighters and 1 bomber, when in total the Japanese lost 2 fighters, most likely to RAF Hurricanes also involved.
There was just a discussion on another board where a LW guy was trying to connect actual kills to claims by a LW ace named Bartels. He was asking for 38 losses on two different days in the Med, where this guy claimed 7 38s near his own field. Well there was one 38 lost and it was to flak. Someone else piped in that he'd also claimed 4 51s in a fight were only two were lost and they weren't even in the same area. His 100+ kills look kinda silly when you consider that 11 of them from 3 flights were just disproved.
Again it makes for better stories if the truth gets bent a bit in wartime. Gotta keep folks in the game so to speak
Also keep in mind that the LW while out numbered against the Allied bombers and fighters did their best to use their ground control to put their fighters on to undefended parts of the formations so they could achieve numerical superiority in a certain area while trying to avoid Allied fighters. This leads to Allied pilots talking about encountering large numbers of German birds and being up against a larger force.
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If you're out numbered, you've got to fight harder, fight better, and fight smarter than the other side to give yourself even a punchers chance at winning.
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Someone said pumas and cougars in here, that's what I'm talking about...
Oh, and yeah, listen to Guppy.
:aok
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If you're out numbered, you've got to fight harder, fight better, and fight smarter than the other side to give yourself even a punchers chance at winning.
Well that eliminates the Luftwaffe from the discussion, or at least their leadership. They thought they were better then they were. They went after folks who in the end were going to out produce them, and train more pilots then they could. They failed to see the need for a long range bomber. They failed to come up with a long range fighter. They had the first combat jet and failed to know how to use it and in the end they were left a broken and defeated Air Force. When they had the experience, numbers and technical superiority they were unable to close the deal. The Allies caught up and closed it for them.
Did they have some exceptional pilots? Absolutely, and they either ended up dead or POWs.
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Having numbers is one advantage for sure, but it's not the only advantage that can exist. There were major battles where the outnumbered side did well (German invasion of France, Battle of Britain, defense of Malta, AVG, early stages of battles of Finns vs. Soviets, etc.)
The Germans did well in Europe in the Battle of France because French and British were rubbish.
The Axis powers knew once the Allies had got thier house in order it would not be as easy to wage a war to their liking.
There are a lot of Myths in the war on regards to prowess.
The Allies prevailed due to the ability to wage and "Maintain" effective military stratigie, the Axis powers were not capable of "Sustaining" a effective military strategy.
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There are many examples in the history of war of a smaller (but better-trained or better-equipped or more-proficient or more-motivated) force defeating a larger foe. That's all I was saying. There are examples in WWII of particular battles, but because in the end the larger armies won, you can't make the case that a smaller force won the war. There are many other examples: Marathon, decades of Hannibal vs. Romans, Crecy, Henry V at Agincourt, Caesar's conquest of Gaul, the defeat of Boudica, Alexander vs. Persians, etc.
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The Allies prevailed due to the ability to wage and "Maintain" effective military stratigie, the Axis powers were not capable of "Sustaining" a effective military strategy.
The cold reality was that it became a war of attrition, a war the axis could not win. All the strategy in the world would not have saved them nor would the allies lost had they had the worst strategy around (~25x numerical adv). Debrody is correct, that often a much smaller attack force of axis pilots would attack a larger group, and many would come home but despite their success at surviving, they failed the objective, which was to stop the bomber formations. Which I would like to add is impossible for 26 fighters to do considering the numbers the allies put up. I would like to point out 3 things though...
1) Much like the British in the battle of the Britain, the Germans had an effective radar network that allowed them to engage with an alt advantage.
2) Against the 8th, which was not defended by fighters effectively until the '44, had different goals. The 8ths goal was to get to the target, not to pad their AH fighter rank or figure out who was grizz and gang the f**k sh**t out of him. On the same token, the LW goal was to take out the bombers, not tangle with the p51s/p47s.
3) As the war progressed, the LW was ever more comprised of kids with less than 10 hours in the cockpit, with a few uber aces whom were able to survive the impossible.
As much as this sounds like I am contradicting my previous post, let me try to explain. It was one thing that expert Axis pilots could survive and another that they were 'successful' in completing the intended goal. It didn't matter if Galland or Heartman got 20 kills a flight, there were still 1200 bombers and 900 fighters left still progressing to the target, flattening the cities & destroying the factories. The numbers were so mismatched it was hopeless, which goes back to my previous point, its a numbers game, and....
more toys = win!
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Ok what did I miss, when did this become a noodle measuring contest? I thought the war had been fought already.
~500.000 aircrew and pilots died in the skies over Europe between 1939-1945. Reading this thread give me the impression you bunch think that was not enough!
:bhead
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;)
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That would be the allies. Are you truely so ignorant to belive America won WWII alone?
I fly the spit9 too :)
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Since I started playing about 4 months ago, I've only flown American planes with exception to the jet planes and only been with the Bish in the MA. If I fly an allied plane, i.e Spit 9, it has to have the USA insignia. My squaddies say that I'm missing out on planes that may better suit my style. My rebuttal is, "who won the war again?". I know there are tons of benefits from flying the axis planes, u can find out the strengths and weaknesses firsthand.
Is there any others like me? I truly doubt it.
chipr
Its probably my age but I would prefer the MA was Axis V Allies. The majority obviously disagree and want the option to fly all the planes in alegiance to a squad or chess piece. I try to fly allied planes mainly those you can put a roundel on the wing. Your rebuttal makes no sense it is a matter of immersion in the game but I dont sit at home eating powdered egg and drinking warm week beer with a leather helmet on (yet :D).
While it can be argued the most significant battle of WW2 was the Battle of Britain the majority of the german army were normally deploid on the eastern front fighting the soviet union who also paid the highest price in terms of loss of life.
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Strategy is planning a effective military campaign.
The military campaign was attrition.
Peirre Closstermanns book has a very good chapter that explains that the German Airforce was still effective into 1944-45. When I get home I will quote the chapter,apparently the allied suffered a massive attack which left the Allied airforce at a disadvantage.
Lucky the Germans surrendered.
If they had not "Berlin,Hiroshima,Nagasaki" who knows.
In the end we are all now a big happy family :banana:
I am still the best looking AH by the way :rofl
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Guppy, thats unreal.
That time, during the "American Summer", Hartmann and his squad had their base field in Vien. Our pilots were often winging with their german collegues, since Vien is just about 100 miles from Veszprém (our main field).
I can belive you that my numbers may be too much, but thats impossible they only lost 28.
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Ok guys, there's only one way to settle this. :devil
Have a rerun of the air war (http://www.matrixgames.com/products/320/details/Gary.Grigsby%27s.Eagle.Day.to.Bombing.the.Reich) over Europe.
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we can "should of, would of, could of" all we want, but the fact still remains.
The Allies won, the Axis lost.
None of this bickering is going to change that.
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we can "should of, would of, could of" all we want, but the fact still remains.
The Allies won, the Axis lost.
little arrogant guy, now let me know what you wanna bring out from that?
im getting curious.
Sounds pretty much like this: "<3 luftwannabe dudes, WE WAN TEH WARZ".
Persians won too... still, Das Ist Sparta!
;)
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little arrogant guy, now let me know what you wanna bring out from that?
im getting curious.
Sounds pretty much like this: "<3 luftwannabe dudes, WE WAN TEH WARZ".
Persians won too... still, Das Ist Sparta!
;)
maybe his point was - it's just history, none of this arguing on the forums is going to change a thing
if you want to re-write it in your head to help your ego then fine
what actually happened is fairly well documented :aok
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little arrogant guy, now let me know what you wanna bring out from that?
im getting curious.
Sounds pretty much like this: "<3 luftwannabe dudes, WE WAN TEH WARZ".
Persians won too... still, Das Ist Sparta!
;)
yes. that's exactly what i meant. I just didnt want to hurt your feelings by being rude.
:)
maybe his point was - it's just history, none of this arguing on the forums is going to change a thing
if you want to re-write it in your head to help your ego then fine
what actually happened is fairly well documented :aok
:aok
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:lol
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~500.000 aircrew and pilots died in the skies over Europe between 1939-1945. Reading this thread give me the impression you bunch think that was not enough!
Its very sad that so many young men had to die because of a few megalomaniacs.
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Its very sad that so many young men had to die because of a few megalomaniacs.
yes
(http://cdn.newsone.com/files/2009/03/pope.jpg)
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who won the war?
I thought Japan did? :eek:
All my hardware is Japanese. I fly their planes a lot. Huh? What happen?!!!
Someone set us up the bomb I think!
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Like that scene in "1941" where they are trying to get the radio into the sub hatch and the one fella says "Why did we make these so big?".....
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Its very sad that so many young men had to die because of a few megalomaniacs.
Isn't that the truth. We want to make those young men bigger then life. They've been my hero's since I was 6 years old. They were always in my mind, 7 feet tall and made of steel. I remember back in 85 when I got to go to England for the 41 squadron reunion. I couldn't believe I was going to get to meet those Spit XII drivers. I remember getting to RAF Coltishall and walking into the OC where the vets were sharing a pint and talking. I'm 5' 10" tall. I figured I'd be looking up at these guys. 7' tall and all that. Turned out I was physically taller then all of them. They'd grown older. They were teachers, engineers, a minister, businessmen etc. They were not supermen, but real people who did things they had to do hoping to get back to their lives.
Sadly many of their buddies hadn't gotten the chance to live out their days to old age.
To me that doesn't make them less of a hero to me, but more. As they were ordinary men doing extraordinary things. And I think it's too easy for folks to forget that and to try and make this pilot or that pilot somehow more then human. In the end that diminishes them.
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Extraordinary circumstances usually force people to do extraordinary things, the result is extraordinary people. Ordinary habits won't get you extraordinary results, in case you were looking for any. Just sayin' ...
If you want to get anywhere in life, being normal is not what will get you there. For many of 'that' generation, all they wanted was to get back to 'normal' but they were not asked. It was required of them to become extraordinary, to never know the ordinary life. For many, that meant their life, and to them, that was normal.
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Extraordinary circumstances usually force people to do extraordinary things, the result is extraordinary people. Ordinary habits won't get you extraordinary results, in case you were looking for any. Just sayin' ...
If you want to get anywhere in life, being normal is not what will get you there. For many of 'that' generation, all they wanted was to get back to 'normal' but they were not asked. It was required of them to become extraordinary, to never know the ordinary life. For many, that meant their life, and to them, that was normal.
And the applicability exists in all people. We want to call the WW2 folks the "Greatest Generation", yet we ignore our own kids, many who have done multiple tours in combat, far more then the WW2 guys. My nephew's been home now for a few months. He saw all kinds of combat. He's still my nephew and still a kid.
Think of all the extraordinary things those kids who lost their lives might have done had they not had to fight that war.
Again, understand the WW2 guys have been my heroes for most of my 51 years. I've known and spent time with many of them. They dealt with the world they had at the time, as the kids we have now are doing it again. I'm not minimizing what they accomplished. When I see folks trying to make them out to be more then they were, I'm going to point it out, as they did to me, over and over again in getting to know them. They weren't 7 feet tall, made of steel.
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And the applicability exists in all people. We want to call the WW2 folks the "Greatest Generation", yet we ignore our own kids, many who have done multiple tours in combat, far more then the WW2 guys. My nephew's been home now for a few months. He saw all kinds of combat. He's still my nephew and still a kid.
Think of all the extraordinary things those kids who lost their lives might have done had they not had to fight that war.
Again, understand the WW2 guys have been my heroes for most of my 51 years. I've known and spent time with many of them. They dealt with the world they had at the time, as the kids we have now are doing it again. I'm not minimizing what they accomplished. When I see folks trying to make them out to be more then they were, I'm going to point it out, as they did to me, over and over again in getting to know them. They weren't 7 feet tall, made of steel.
We are all human, but I would suggest that being human is so much more than what the modern man is taught to understand. We are all unique, therein lie our strength. Numbers are good, but only if diversity is allowed within. Look at the soviet socialist model and the mass carnage within their ranks in all battles they participated. Ignorance is not bliss, it is damnation. In so many ways. Fighter pilots are a bit of a unique breed in the military, because they are allowed much individualism. This is also partly why they are such extraordinary men in the minds of most people, I would argue.
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We are all human, but I would suggest that being human is so much more than what the modern man is taught to understand. We are all unique, therein lie our strength. Numbers are good, but only if diversity is allowed within. Look at the soviet socialist model and the mass carnage within their ranks in all battles they participated. Ignorance is not bliss, it is damnation. In so many ways. Fighter pilots are a bit of a unique breed in the military, because they are allowed much individualism. This is also partly why they are such extraordinary men in the minds of most people, I would argue.
I think we're agreeing somehow but not saying it the same way. In Airwarrior we had our old buddy Earl Miller who flew with us. Earl was a real life WW2 fighter pilot with a Silver Star & DFC having flown combat in 39s, and 47s in the MTO from 42-45. He later flew combat in A-1s in Vietnam. But Earl was one of us, BSing on the boards, talking about this and that. He was one of the gang. Those of us who got to meet him found out even more how he was one of us. What was extraordinary about Earl was that he was one of us, yet he'd done all that stuff we pretended to. He wasn't bigger then life which I think folks who knew him would agree, made him that much more special to us.
Does that make sense? Earl was superman to us because we knew he wasn't superman.
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(https://camo.team9000.net/93a8fad7baf56a23dffaf1fa3e8158fdac4295c9/687474703a2f2f666162756c6f75736c796d6f6465726e646973636f2e66696c65732e776f726470726573732e636f6d2f323031302f30342f747572746c657a6f6d6269652e6a7067)
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Real heroes are humble.
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I think we're agreeing somehow but not saying it the same way. In Airwarrior we had our old buddy Earl Miller who flew with us. Earl was a real life WW2 fighter pilot with a Silver Star & DFC having flown combat in 39s, and 47s in the MTO from 42-45. He later flew combat in A-1s in Vietnam. But Earl was one of us, BSing on the boards, talking about this and that. He was one of the gang. Those of us who got to meet him found out even more how he was one of us. What was extraordinary about Earl was that he was one of us, yet he'd done all that stuff we pretended to. He wasn't bigger then life which I think folks who knew him would agree, made him that much more special to us.
Does that make sense? Earl was superman to us because we knew he wasn't superman.
Oh I'm not disagreeing with you at all. Like you say we just word it differently. Somehow we are all extraordinary in the sense you depict Earl. Not all find that extraordinary side though but get stuck on external attributes (like being larger than life). That may be fun, but only for so long (like until that moment you realize you're not larger than life). Maybe Earl was that 'larger than life' guy at some other time in his life, before you got to know him. People are never static, but dynamic and evolve over time. Or at least we like to think so. Those who are static, well there's something wrong with them usually and quite frankly.
Very much like this:
"All the world's a stage,
And all the men and women merely players:
They have their exits and their entrances;
And one man in his time plays many parts..."
By Shakespeare
ok so it's in the AM here so not going to dwell into this much further :salute
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People are never static, but dynamic and evolve over time. Or at least we like to think so.
I'm pretty static while I play AH.... :joystick:
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I'm pretty static while I play AH.... :joystick:
I'm so static its ludicrous! :x
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Oh I'm not disagreeing with you at all. Like you say we just word it differently. Somehow we are all extraordinary in the sense you depict Earl. Not all find that extraordinary side though but get stuck on external attributes (like being larger than life). That may be fun, but only for so long (like until that moment you realize you're not larger than life). Maybe Earl was that 'larger than life' guy at some other time in his life, before you got to know him. People are never static, but dynamic and evolve over time. Or at least we like to think so. Those who are static, well there's something wrong with them usually and quite frankly.
Very much like this:
"All the world's a stage,
And all the men and women merely players:
They have their exits and their entrances;
And one man in his time plays many parts..."
By Shakespeare
ok so it's in the AM here so not going to dwell into this much further :salute
One of Earl's favorite stories was after they got P47s. Earl is about 5'2" and the cockpit was large in the Jug. He had fun pulling up alongside C-47s and ducking below the canopy rail so it looked like it was an empty Jug :)
I guess keeping your sense of humor in wartime is somewhat extraordinary
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And the applicability exists in all people. We want to call the WW2 folks the "Greatest Generation", yet we ignore our own kids, many who have done multiple tours in combat, far more then the WW2 guys. My nephew's been home now for a few months. He saw all kinds of combat. He's still my nephew and still a kid.
Think of all the extraordinary things those kids who lost their lives might have done had they not had to fight that war.
Again, understand the WW2 guys have been my heroes for most of my 51 years. I've known and spent time with many of them. They dealt with the world they had at the time, as the kids we have now are doing it again. I'm not minimizing what they accomplished. When I see folks trying to make them out to be more then they were, I'm going to point it out, as they did to me, over and over again in getting to know them. They weren't 7 feet tall, made of steel.
I think the reason that WWII holds such a power over people's hearts and minds is because it really was the last great war. No other conflicts before or after have shaken not just nations or contients but the whole world. And few of the wars since have been fought not for something, but against something so vile that it unites entire countries to fight behind a cause.
Untill another conflict on such a scale occures, WWII will always be the war people remember.
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I think the reason that WWII holds such a power over people's hearts and minds is because it really was the last great war. No other conflicts before or after have shaken not just nations or contients but the whole world. And few of the wars since have been fought not for something, but against something so vile that it unites entire countries to fight behind a cause.
Untill another conflict on such a scale occures, WWII will always be the war people remember.
The danger becomes if we romanticize it too much it does become some sort of 'good' war. There is no such thing. In so many ways you could argue it's still not over, but then again WW2 was really just the continuation of WW1 in many ways
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I said it was the last Great War, not a good war. Something can be great, and at the same time, the blackest evil imaginable. The two aren't antonyms, or even mutualy exclusive terms.
And thats arguable, to a certian extent. While the war as a conflict may not be good, the war as its causes and the sacrafice made by the men and women who join behind those casues can, in some cases, be considered good.
Like I said, the allies in WWII didn't fight FOR something. They didn't stand to gain anything from a victory (that the United States emerged as unarguably the most powerfull nation at the time was merely a result of their use of atomic weapons. The loss of life, the families torn apart, and the suffering by those who endured it will never be worth that dubious distinction). What they did was fight against hitler and the Axis, because they believed that he and the evil he stired up needed to end.
In that sense, WWII was also the only 'good' war. That being said, you are right, its not good to overly romanticize the war. However if we allow it to slip into abscurity in the same way many other conflicts have, it no longer serves as a warning to future generations.
I think its safe to say that WWII is over. Unless theres still German-french emnity simmering below the surface that I'm unaware of. Although France seems to have been rather..... reserved, and withdrawn from world afairs since WWII.
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Don't limit yourself to one country's aircraft.
Maybe 60% of the time I'm in an FM-2, but I also love flying the 109F. When I want to roll heavy, I'm either in a 38J or an A-20, i'll up zekes to try to break a base cap, K4s or D9s for bomber intercept, and i'll fly yaks because they're down right fun.
It's all about what gives you the best advantage due to circumstances, and what makes the game fun
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It can broaden your view of aviation history, let you see the good and bad points of various aircraft, and even give you more insight into the comparative advantages and disadvantages of your favored aircraft.
Also, it can be like trying other foods instead of being dull and eating hamburgers for every meal of your life, even if hamburgers did happen to be the victors of the Great Food Battle of the 1900's. We've got sushi and pasta and borscht and schnitzel and fish and chips, too! :)
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LOL! :rofl oh man... if I were like that i Would only be able to fly the p47.. well im not a subscriber anymore so what the heck eh :rolleyes:
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wat.
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Brooke eats Sushi :cry
Chicks eat Sushi :)
Fish chips and peas and a round if bread is for blokes :old:
Flew the Niki yesterday forgot how much fun it is :)
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WWII very much was a continuation of WWI. This traveller's guide (http://easyhiker.co.uk/what-hitler-did-in-compiegne/) website explain it rather well I believe. The famous words of Ferdinand Foch "This is not a peace, it is a armastice for 20 years!" was not in surprise after reading the document. For it was Ferdinand Foch who negotiated the terms, or rather set them as there wasn't much of a negotiation. So it was a statement, it was never intended to be peace. One can argue that it was a continuation of the war by other means. WWII was a very logical continuation of the chain of events.
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WWII very much was a continuation of WWI. This traveller's guide (http://easyhiker.co.uk/what-hitler-did-in-compiegne/) website explain it rather well I believe. The famous words of Ferdinand Foch "This is not a peace, it is a armastice for 20 years!" was not in surprise after reading the document. For it was Ferdinand Foch who negotiated the terms, or rather set them as there wasn't much of a negotiation. So it was a statement, it was never intended to be peace. One can argue that it was a continuation of the war by other means. WWII was a very logical continuation of the chain of events.
In many ways, ww1 and ww2 was a violent dismantlement of the 'old/colonial Europe'. In ww1 forced the collapse of the Austro-hungarian Monarchy, Ottoman Monarchy & Russian Monarchy. Ww2 was in a way, Germany trying to 'recreate' its 'glory' of the first Reich (Holy Roman Empire) and second Reich (Prussian Empire) combined with a perverted twist of hate. Furthermore, ww2 accelerated the decline of the British Empire as it nearly bankrupted England and soon after lost many of its colonies it had acquired during its days as a Monarchy (India in 1948, etc..). Furthermore, France lost its colonies and Italy acquired and lost colonies. As well as the US loosing its only major colony, the Philippines.
In the end, it thrusted Europe into the 20th and 21st century, with no option of going back.
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Yes Foch I read that :old:
We are still feeling the results if these great events today :old:
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In the end, it thrusted Europe into the 20th and 21st century, with no option of going back.
And now... we have credit default swaps. :lol
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I think its safe to say that WWII is over. Unless theres still German-french emnity simmering below the surface that I'm unaware of. Although France seems to have been rather..... reserved, and withdrawn from world afairs since WWII.
Well they have deposed the leaders of two sovereign countries last week. Who next for the sake of the Euro? :P
They are like a bad marriage with the woman wearing the trousers. I guess America has to now step in and solve this one too oh wait your even more broke nvm.....
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Brooke eats Sushi :cry
Chicks eat Sushi :)
Samurai eat sushi! :aok
Fish chips and peas and a round if bread is for blokes :old:
Flew the Niki yesterday forgot how much fun it is :)
Ah, yes! Fish and chips and peas and a pint! Or bangers and mash, or a pie and chips, or a full English breakfast! Mmmmm. Old Speckled Hen or a Boddingtons, please!
My favorite fish and chips was at the Golden Hind in London, followed by The Three Lion's British pub near where I live in the USA (I have British food about once a week).
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oh wait your even more broke nvm.....
Don't worry -- our current administration loves to print money by the trillions.
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Don't worry -- our current administration loves to print money by the trillions.
Current? Methinks you need to read some history of the last 30 years or so.
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My first main ride was a Russian one.
I have more kills in German planes than in those any other nationality.
But the plane I have most kills in is a British one.
Three or four tours out of my ~70 total had a distinct country "theme", but I always found it to be incredibly boring after two weeks.
I started as Bish in 2005 (can't remember what side I was on in 01), then went Rook in 2006 and later became a Knight. Lost track of my cartoon nationality since then.
Seems my cartoon patriotism is quite underdeveloped. :noid
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Current? Methinks you need to read some history of the last 30 years or so.
I'm not a great expert by any means, but one of my hobbies is financial and economic history. Here's a graph from the Fed that covers the last 100 years in the US and is the source of my above opinion. The current administration stands out uniquely.
(http://research.stlouisfed.org/fred2/graph/fredgraph.png?&id=AMBNS&scale=Left&range=Max&cosd=1918-01-01&coed=2011-10-01&line_color=%230000ff&link_values=false&line_style=Solid&mark_type=NONE&mw=4&lw=1&ost=-99999&oet=99999&mma=0&fml=a&fq=Monthly&fam=avg&fgst=lin&transformation=lin&vintage_date=2011-11-16&revision_date=2011-11-16)
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Don't worry -- our current administration loves to print money by the trillions.
Oh, but that's not the doing of the administration, you are giving them too much credit! :rofl
The Federal Reserve is a private bank, has nothing to do with federal government, other than perhaps buying its services... :lol
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Oh, but that's not the doing of the administration, you are giving them too much credit! :rofl
The Federal Reserve is a private bank, has nothing to do with federal government, other than perhaps buying its services... :lol
True, but I suspect that the Fed usually has gone along with most policies of the administration of the day.
Also, a lot of the money doled out was under control of the government (not the domain of the Fed alone):
February 2009
$787 Billion Stimulus Package – Average Americans Bailout
February 2009
$275 Billion Stimulus Package – Homeowners Bailout
March 2009
$30 Billion Stimulus Package – AIG Bailout
March 2009
$15 Billion Stimulus Package – Small Business Loans
March 2009
$1 Trillion "Toxic Asset" Program – Banks Bailout
March 2009
$22 Billion Stimulus Package – Automakers Bailout
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'A lot', perhaps. Not the majority of it. Don't kid yourself though. In the words of Alan Greenspan when asked the question if the president can order the fed what to do; "No other federal institution can overrule any of our actions." Oh and there he go implying that the fed is a federal institution.
2.5 trillion to Citigroup under the table? A total of ~16 trillion USD in zero-interest loans without repayment obligations to private banks around the globe between dec 2007 and june 2010. Is that a good monetary policy at a time when the debt is over 14 trillion? For the fed perhaps, not for the people no.
And to imagine that the space program could have been saved for a measly 4 Billion, is that true?
All of this money is credit. In other words it's worth no more than a breath of fresh air.
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Japan been in debt for past 20 years :old:
They seem to carry on :uhoh
Everyone who bought on credit are to blame as well not just the banks, people used to save up for things :old:
These loans are to keep the credit system going for another 20 years, so the likes of those with credit cards can buy things because they are to stupid to save up for :old:
I bought my 2011 ford focus with cash i saved, thats a strange way to buy things with real money not borrowed of a greedy money lender bank :rofl
Poland is one of the few countries in europe thats not been effected by the recession :old:
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I'd like to have what you're smoking. I see the credit system struggling in the coming 20 months, the 20-year scope just isn't there. When the USD lose its world currency status the USA will experience a +25% loss of living standard. China is spending their USD wisely, buying up everything they can lay their hands on and price is not the issue to them. They just want to get rid of their USD without raising too much suspicion.
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Vortex, I think we both feel the same way about it. :uhoh
All of this money is credit. In other words it's worth no more than a breath of fresh air.
Until it doesn't get repaid, then you and I get to pay it back with real money.
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No... we pay it back with our productivity, forget money. Our productivity and that of our children, and grandchildren...
I don't think many people realize what's at stake. Earlier this year the US federal budget went past the tipping point. Point of no return as it's known to pilots. Even if taxes were raised to 100% the federal budget would not balance out. That means it's officially out of control.
What can be done about it? Get rid of the fed, they are the root cause and we owe them nothing. It's all smoke and mirrors.
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Vortex, I think we both feel the same way about it. :uhoh
Until it doesn't get repaid, then you and I get to pay it back with real money.
Silly people buying on credit are to blame :)
In Germany they save up for things they want by putting it in the bank :banana:
In the US and UK they spend spend on credit cards and cry like babies when the debt needs paying back :banana:
It is called "MONEYTARISM" to coin a economic term :old:
Yes China is buying up debt so silly people can keep buying what they should not really have :old:
China cannot feed itself, the biggest exporter of food products to China is the...........USA :banana:
I like Chicken fried rice and king prawns in blackbean sauce every Friday night paid with cash :old:
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Silly people buying on credit are to blame :)
In Germany they save up for things they want by putting it in the bank :banana:old:
Must be a different Germany than the one I'm living in :headscratch:
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You have 200 billion in gold reserves I believe?
Have you paid that Greek debt off by the way :rofl :rofl :rofl
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You have 200 billion in gold reserves I believe?
I was referring to private individuals. "they they save up for things they want by putting it in the bank". Consuming on credits is rampant. Over-indebtedness even at a young age is not a rare thing. The times have changed. :old:
Have you paid that Greek debt off by the way :rofl :rofl :rofl
I pay nothing to nobody. No taxes for me :devil
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You pay no taxes you a Junker? :banana:
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True, but I suspect that the Fed usually has gone along with most policies of the administration of the day.
Also, a lot of the money doled out was under control of the government (not the domain of the Fed alone):
February 2009
$787 Billion Stimulus Package – Average Americans Bailout
February 2009
$275 Billion Stimulus Package – Homeowners Bailout
March 2009
$30 Billion Stimulus Package – AIG Bailout
March 2009
$15 Billion Stimulus Package – Small Business Loans
March 2009
$1 Trillion "Toxic Asset" Program – Banks Bailout
March 2009
$22 Billion Stimulus Package – Automakers Bailout
didnt know the "current" administration passed all those bailouts :rofl they were all signed on the dotted line before the current administration stepped into office...
now can we get this thread back on track with my next post?
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little arrogant guy, now let me know what you wanna bring out from that?
im getting curious.
Sounds pretty much like this: "<3 luftwannabe dudes, WE WAN TEH WARZ".
Persians won too... still, Das Ist Sparta!
;)
this is all i hear out of this
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SMWi7CLoZ2Q
:bolt:
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didnt know the "current" administration passed all those bailouts
Yes. I selected only the ones for current. (That's why I left the dates in, so that you can see that.) There were others before the current as well, of course.
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Yes. I selected only the ones for current. (That's why I left the dates in, so that you can see that.) There were others before the current as well, of course.
those the dates they were enacted? or approved?
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those the dates they were enacted? or approved?
Approved (i.e., when they were signed).
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Stop! Make the bad men go away with their political implications!
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Stop! Make the bad men go away with their political implications!
It's good for you! Eat your spinach! :)
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need to recheck my dates then... anyways
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SMWi7CLoZ2Q <-this at times :D
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Hey BAR I didnt get my paper again this morning :rofl What Up ?
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The Federal Reserve is a private bank, has nothing to do with federal government, other than perhaps buying its services... :lol
That's not true at all. Would it be that hard to go look it up before posting?
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That's not true at all. Would it be that hard to go look it up before posting?
I dare you to dig.
Oh and btw in Washington D.C. that is true, the states I do not know.
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I dare you to dig.
You might want to start with the Federal Reserve's website, which breaks down its quasi-governmental status and purpose quite nicely. It's a .gov address FWIW, but further discussion belongs in the O'Club.
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The Federal Reserve bank is a privately owned entity.
I don't care what they say on their website. :rolleyes:
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The Federal Reserve bank is a privately owned entity.
I don't care what they say on their website. :rolleyes:
a privately owned entity that works for the government :noid
zis is ze conspiracy of ALL TIME!
Hey BAR I didnt get my paper again this morning :rofl What Up ?
:noid
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a privately owned entity that works for the government :noid
zis is ze conspiracy of ALL TIME!
:noid
nope.....not in any way does it "work" for the government. :rofl
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nope.....not in any way does it "work" for the government. :rofl
ink you missed the sarcasm :aok
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ink you missed the sarcasm :aok
:rofl
its hard to get that through text......we need a "right over the head smiley" I deserve one :(
:o
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:rofl
its hard to get that through text......we need a "right over the head smiley" I deserve one :(
:o
:rofl :cheers:
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(http://hem.bredband.net/turnik/icons/badbaduser.gif)
or this...
(http://hem.bredband.net/turnik/icons/icon_doh.gif)
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(http://hem.bredband.net/turnik/icons/badbaduser.gif)
or this...
(http://hem.bredband.net/turnik/icons/icon_doh.gif)
:rofl