Author Topic: Last of a dying breed...  (Read 6747 times)

Offline Tank-Ace

  • Persona Non Grata
  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 5298
Re: Last of a dying breed...
« Reply #60 on: November 14, 2011, 06:42:07 PM »
you talk like your lips don't fit.

Commenting on my spelling, I assume?
You started this thread and it was obviously about your want and desire in spite of your use of 'we' and Google.

"Once more unto the breach"

Offline Guppy35

  • Radioactive Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 20386
Re: Last of a dying breed...
« Reply #61 on: November 14, 2011, 06:47:52 PM »
Not true, they just never won a notable battle without a substancial lead in numbers.

Neither did the Luftwaffe.

That's that same stupid revisionist history bit where the glorious LW outnumbered and out gunned somehow with the greatest pilots the world has ever seen, took on the numerically advantaged Allies and blah blah blah.

The Luftwaffe won the battles where they had more and better planes and more experienced pilots.  When the roles got reversed they got their rear ends kicked too.  Irony is they started it with all the advantages, couldn't win it, and got their backsides handed to them when the other side got it's act together.
Dan/CorkyJr
8th FS "Headhunters

Offline Ardy123

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3417
Re: Last of a dying breed...
« Reply #62 on: November 14, 2011, 06:51:28 PM »
Neither did the Luftwaffe.

That's that same stupid revisionist history bit where the glorious LW outnumbered and out gunned somehow with the greatest pilots the world has ever seen, took on the numerically advantaged Allies and blah blah blah.

The Luftwaffe won the battles where they had more and better planes and more experienced pilots.  When the roles got reversed they got their rear ends kicked too.  Irony is they started it with all the advantages, couldn't win it, and got their backsides handed to them when the other side got it's act together.

I think the part you are all missing, is whomever has more toys wins the fight.... in the beginning it was the Germans, once they took on the Russians, it soon became the Allies.

More toys = win!
Yeah, that's right, you just got your rear handed to you by a fuggly puppet!
==Army of Muppets==
(Bunnies)

Offline Guppy35

  • Radioactive Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 20386
Re: Last of a dying breed...
« Reply #63 on: November 14, 2011, 06:56:09 PM »
I think the part you are all missing, is whomever has more toys wins the fight.... in the beginning it was the Germans, once they took on the Russians, it soon became the Allies.

More toys = win!


Exactly.  Where we play a game where a fair fight should be part of the deal, when it was real life and death. no one was concerned about fairness. 

I think it's fair to say that any country with pilots produced good ones.  They made do with what they had and those with the most experienced and well trained pilots and quality aircraft at the end, won. 
Dan/CorkyJr
8th FS "Headhunters

Offline Ardy123

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3417
Re: Last of a dying breed...
« Reply #64 on: November 14, 2011, 06:58:43 PM »
hey made do with what they had and those with the most experienced and well trained pilots and quality aircraft at the end, won. 

This is where we disagree, you could be the best fighter pilot in the world, if your out numbered greater than 2x or in a poor position, your dead... Skill won't make up for numbers. Well maybe if your in a f16 and they are in ww1 biplanes....
Yeah, that's right, you just got your rear handed to you by a fuggly puppet!
==Army of Muppets==
(Bunnies)

Offline Brooke

  • Aces High CM Staff
  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 15718
      • http://www.electraforge.com/brooke/
Re: Last of a dying breed...
« Reply #65 on: November 14, 2011, 07:36:27 PM »
Having numbers is one advantage for sure, but it's not the only advantage that can exist.  There were major battles where the outnumbered side did well (German invasion of France, Battle of Britain, defense of Malta, AVG, early stages of battles of Finns vs. Soviets, etc.)

Offline Guppy35

  • Radioactive Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 20386
Re: Last of a dying breed...
« Reply #66 on: November 14, 2011, 07:38:29 PM »
This is where we disagree, you could be the best fighter pilot in the world, if your out numbered greater than 2x or in a poor position, your dead... Skill won't make up for numbers. Well maybe if your in a f16 and they are in ww1 biplanes....

I was agreeing with you bunnies :)

At the beginning the LW had the largest batch of operational experienced pilots.  By the end the Allies had the largest batch of experienced operational pilots.  My point being the same as yours
Dan/CorkyJr
8th FS "Headhunters

Offline Ardy123

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3417
Re: Last of a dying breed...
« Reply #67 on: November 14, 2011, 09:27:19 PM »
I was agreeing with you bunnies :)

 :aok ahh
Yeah, that's right, you just got your rear handed to you by a fuggly puppet!
==Army of Muppets==
(Bunnies)

Offline Debrody

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 4487
Re: Last of a dying breed...
« Reply #68 on: November 14, 2011, 11:53:59 PM »
This is where we disagree, you could be the best fighter pilot in the world, if your out numbered greater than 2x or in a poor position, your dead... Skill won't make up for numbers. Well maybe if your in a f16 and they are in ww1 biplanes....
Ehm not as sure.
The only hungarian fighter group was the 101st Puma (Cougar) squadron, formed in '42. They never had more than 26 pilots in the same time.
They were operational from Stalingrad to Kursk: downed 132 russian planes while lost only 20, also only 6 pilots died. Axixs did not had numerican superiority then...
In '44 summer the americans were doing bombing raids to my country. Tipically once a week, like 500-900 bombers escorted by 100-250 ponies and 38s. This squadron downed 110 heavies and 56 fighters while only lost 10 pilots. True, they had german help during this time, but never could get more than 60 pilots together.
Later, the russians became the major threat again. 156 Kills, 21 deaths. As you see, not as imperssive, as the russian numbers were getting more overhelming and we lost a couple ace pilots.
Grand total 454 downed enemy aircraft for losing 37 pilots and about 60 aircrafts (not sure)... all in the late war, against the russian horde.

Be a wolf. Fly Luftwaffe.
« Last Edit: November 15, 2011, 12:32:01 AM by Debrody »
AoM
City of ice

Offline BaldEagl

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 10791
Re: Last of a dying breed...
« Reply #69 on: November 15, 2011, 12:16:47 AM »
My rebuttal is, "who won the war again?".

That would be the allies.  Are you truely so ignorant to belive America won WWII alone?
I edit a lot of my posts.  Get used to it.

Offline Guppy35

  • Radioactive Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 20386
Re: Last of a dying breed...
« Reply #70 on: November 15, 2011, 12:58:39 AM »
Ehm not as sure.
The only hungarian fighter group was the 101st Puma (Cougar) squadron, formed in '42. They never had more than 26 pilots in the same time.
They were operational from Stalingrad to Kursk: downed 132 russian planes while lost only 20, also only 6 pilots died. Axixs did not had numerican superiority then...
In '44 summer the americans were doing bombing raids to my country. Tipically once a week, like 500-900 bombers escorted by 100-250 ponies and 38s. This squadron downed 110 heavies and 56 fighters while only lost 10 pilots. True, they had german help during this time, but never could get more than 60 pilots together.
Later, the russians became the major threat again. 156 Kills, 21 deaths. As you see, not as imperssive, as the russian numbers were getting more overhelming and we lost a couple ace pilots.
Grand total 454 downed enemy aircraft for losing 37 pilots... all in the late war, against the russian horde.

Be a wolf. Fly Luftwaffe.

Did they win the battle?  Always take the claims numbers with a grain of salt too regardless of what country.  It makes for better propaganda if the other guy has all the advantages.

Look at how you wrote it.  The impression would be these 26 pilots took on 500-900 USAAF bombers and 100-250 escorts at a time and came out on top.  A quick glance at the 15th AF history shows 8 trips to Hungary from June 1st to the end of August 44.  Your numbers suggest that one squadron alone knocked down 20+ USAAF birds every trip.

A quick check of the MACR (Missing Air Crew reports) shows 28 fighters and bombers not returning from those 8 missions to Hungary.  There is an MACR for every USAAF bird lost in combat giving the details on the loss.

Everybody over claimed.  Look at the AVG claims and the Japanese claims in China.  They're crazy off.  Folks have researched both sides and it's downright silly in retrospect.  A classic example.  February 25, 1942.  Three AVG pilots claimed 5 Japanese fighters.  There were no Japanese losses.  Even worse the Japanese claimed 25 Allied planes shot down.  Later that same day the AVG claimed 21 fighters and 1 bomber, when in total the Japanese lost 2 fighters, most likely to RAF Hurricanes also involved.

There was just a discussion on another board where a LW guy was trying to connect actual kills to claims by a LW ace named Bartels.  He was asking for 38 losses on two different days in the Med, where this guy claimed 7 38s near his own field.  Well there was one 38 lost and it was to flak.  Someone else piped in that he'd also claimed 4 51s in a fight were only two were lost and they weren't even in the same area.  His 100+ kills look kinda silly when you consider that 11 of them from 3 flights were just disproved.

Again it makes for better stories if the truth gets bent a bit in wartime.  Gotta keep folks in the game so to speak

Also keep in mind that the LW while out numbered against the Allied bombers and fighters did their best to use their ground control to put their fighters on to undefended parts of the formations so they could achieve numerical superiority in a certain area while trying to avoid Allied fighters.  This leads to Allied pilots talking about encountering large numbers of German birds and being up against a larger force.

Dan/CorkyJr
8th FS "Headhunters

Offline Tank-Ace

  • Persona Non Grata
  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 5298
Re: Last of a dying breed...
« Reply #71 on: November 15, 2011, 01:04:51 AM »
If you're out numbered, you've got to fight harder, fight better, and fight smarter than the other side to give yourself even a punchers chance at winning.
You started this thread and it was obviously about your want and desire in spite of your use of 'we' and Google.

"Once more unto the breach"

Offline Stang

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 6127
Re: Last of a dying breed...
« Reply #72 on: November 15, 2011, 01:06:03 AM »
Someone said pumas and cougars in here, that's what I'm talking about...


Oh, and yeah, listen to Guppy.


 :aok

Offline Guppy35

  • Radioactive Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 20386
Re: Last of a dying breed...
« Reply #73 on: November 15, 2011, 01:24:31 AM »
If you're out numbered, you've got to fight harder, fight better, and fight smarter than the other side to give yourself even a punchers chance at winning.

Well that eliminates the Luftwaffe from the discussion, or at least their leadership.  They thought they were better then they were.  They went after folks who in the end were going to out produce them, and train more pilots then they could.  They failed to see the need for a long range bomber. They failed to come up with a long range fighter. They had the first combat jet and failed to know how to use it and in the end they were left a broken and defeated Air Force.  When they had the experience, numbers and technical superiority they were unable to close the deal.  The Allies caught up and closed it for them.

Did they have some exceptional pilots? Absolutely, and they either ended up dead or POWs.
Dan/CorkyJr
8th FS "Headhunters

Offline zack1234

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 13217
Re: Last of a dying breed...
« Reply #74 on: November 15, 2011, 01:56:19 AM »
Having numbers is one advantage for sure, but it's not the only advantage that can exist.  There were major battles where the outnumbered side did well (German invasion of France, Battle of Britain, defense of Malta, AVG, early stages of battles of Finns vs. Soviets, etc.)

The Germans did well in Europe in the Battle of France because French and British were rubbish.

The Axis powers knew once the Allies had got thier house in order it would not be as easy to wage a war to their liking.

There are a lot of Myths in the war on regards to prowess.

The Allies prevailed due to the ability to wage and "Maintain" effective military stratigie, the Axis powers were not capable of "Sustaining" a effective military strategy.
There are no pies stored in this plane overnight

                          
The GFC
Pipz lived in the Wilderness near Ontario