Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: bustr on November 16, 2011, 01:18:24 PM
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I was reading a breakdown of Hispano 20mm AP rounds from WW2. The 1943 AP MkIII was interesting.
Penetration of armor at 200 yards at a 30 degree angle was 48mm.
Penetration of armor at 600 yards at a 30 degree angle was 30mm.
Some Wirbel Armor Specs.
Turret 16mm
Sides 30mm
Rear 20mm
Engine 11mm
I suppose there is some nit picking arm chair issue about it like only 2000 rounds ever got to the fronts and they refused to fire or when fired hit houses in the next country and bounced off wet paper bags.
http://www.wwiiequipment.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=96:hispano-20mm-armour-piercing-ammunition&catid=44:gunsrockets&Itemid=60
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I don't think our Hispanos are using AP of any kind. I believe they are just HE rounds.
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I think they are AP. All Pixels
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Much like all the other guns with mixed beltings we have hybrid ammo. It carries qualities both AP and HE. It's an averaged round. So it might not have the penetration of the best AP round but it will also be explosive.
P.S. If you're 30 degrees down in a speeding Spitfire/Typh/Moss, firing at 200 yards, you're about to make a big crater in the ground.
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I don't think our Hispanos are using AP of any kind. I believe they are just HE rounds.
our hispano/other cannon rounds are AP/HE mixed together i believe.
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We all sneak in on Wirbels. This round would make 1943-45 hispano armed planes wirbel killers from 600 yards. Rear six 600 yard shots on runners might have a different ending half the time. Any 30mm pilot armor in our fighters?
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Its just not only the armour you have to pass through.
For example a FW190a8 hit from rear with a bullet would have to go through the metal skin at a bad angle, the aft fuel tank rear side, the fuel ( if filled wth petrol it REALLY slows down the bullet) then the aft tank front side,then you have the pilot armour , and the pilot clothes and then the pilot.
Did I miss any parts ?
Seeing a wirbewindl that is stationary , flying at 200mph+ is Very hard, if its not sitting on plain open ground UN-camouflaged. Also you do not only need to spot it , you have to put angle with your guns on it , and hit a 2*1.5 meter turret. Also you need some bullets , killing one crew member does only stop them from shooting for a couple of seconds. Our stupid GV icons makes the spotting very easy compared with real life.
When I was travelling in my tank over a snowy road, an attack pilot did not see me , flying right ontop of me, nor the rest of my platoon,according to that pilot seeing small ground targets was very hard. ( this was in the 80's)
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"Did I miss any parts ?"
Yes, or no actually. In fact you do not need to get through any of the fuel tanks to hit the pilot in FW190 from the rear.
However, the pilot is pretty well covered from ground fire since the fuel tanks reside under the cockpit.
http://fw190.hobbyvista.com/v18.jpg
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Ed. Ok, AUX tank will provide some additional protection -if it is assembled. Although it was usually empty when you went into combat but still there is one more item to cause a bullet to tumble in addition to main compass.
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Seeing a wirbewindl that is stationary , flying at 200mph+ is Very hard,
Wrong.
You went through a normal discussion and pulled your false claims to promote an anti-GV-icon agenda that had no place in this thread to begin with.
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Wonders why a manned 38mm field ack can hit a wirbel 53 times and it drives off undamaged.
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That would explain a 20mm hit sprite and no viable damage.
The 20mm Hispano in AH, regardless if it is a Mk2 or Mk5, does 4.03 "lbs" of damage.
The best 20mm in the game, followed by the Japanese Type 99 Mk II @ 3.85 lbs mounted in the George and Zeke fighters (not to be confused with the weaker Type 99 Mk I or Ho-5 Japanese 20mm also found in AH). Third place belongs to the German MG 151/20 20mm doing 3.55 damage found on most 109's and all 190's.
Anyways, I always thought AH modeled the 20mm HE only, don't ask me why though.
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Wonders why a manned 38mm field ack can hit a wirbel 53 times and it drives off undamaged.
Manned ack is modeled on the 40mm Bofors. Also, I'd be willing to bet HTC modeled only HE for ack ack guns. :)
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I'm pretty sure it's HE. You can still kill lighter tanks with it depending where you hit.
I don't think it's modeled off the 40mm bofors when there are 37mm real world examples to model it off of.
We have the 40mm on the PT stern as well as on CVs, also, and it's different from the 37mm. I think it's just modeled with HE only. That's why we now have 17lb ground guns to shoot at tanks, instead of 37mm HE flak.
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Anyways, I always thought AH modeled the 20mm HE only, don't ask me why though.
Despite comments above, I believe that is correct. It does not model the individual round types, such as HE and tracer for the Hispano or HE, HEI and Minengeschoss rounds, instead averaging the rounds. I could be mistaken, but as I am not familiar with AP rounds being part of WWII fighter belts I do not believe those rounds are modeled.
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You are mistaken. They were very common in all types of guns from MGs to cannons. 20mm Hispano rounds more solid than explosive. 30mm solid slugs from Mk108s, etc.
It was very common to have AP in the belting.
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our hispano/other cannon rounds are AP/HE mixed together i believe.
Krusty beat you no need for post count ups
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Maybe the current version of ammo in the game is a blessing in disguise to promote players not complaining about over modeled ammo damage. Considering the strength of the under modeled complaints. We are lucky the Mauser Mk213 never made it into the war. Our 30mm tater at 1000M/sec 1300 rounds per minute. I seem to recall watching a modern test firing of a 50 cal AP round that passed through a cinder block and I think 1/2inch of steel plate 16 inches past the cinder block with no tumbling.
I suppose most of this audience read the analysis I linked befor commenting. I guess the british didn't issue much AP ammo for their fighters as the article asserts? Or maybe it was in a single theater and year. India/Burma 1942. By 1943 the MkIII AP got almost 2X the penetration based on the first linked article. That 50 cal AP ammo in the 1942 report is no shrinking violet itself. Wasen't the RA/40 AP ammo pretty much the browning 50 cal standard ammo for the Allies in WW2?
So one could infer from the posters in this thread that our ammo in the game is some kind of averaged HE cluge based on a static number power table and this british ww2 document is so much diddly pooh? At least its all a consitant cluge.
(http://img233.imageshack.us/img233/9960/ap23wz.jpg)
(http://img683.imageshack.us/img683/919/ap19az.jpg)
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Krusty beat you no need for post count ups
you think i read what krusty writes? :neener:
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you think i read what krusty writes? :neener:
I'm led to believe you read little of what anyone writes and comprehend even less.
wrongway
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:lol
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Lol
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Wrong.
You went through a normal discussion and pulled your false claims to promote an anti-GV-icon agenda that had no place in this thread to begin with.
Krusty, when you have real life expierence flying in a 300mph aircraft 1-2k AGL, trying to spot a tank pained in a color(s) that blend in with the background, AND is sitting in a dense stand of trees, then, and ONLY then, can you say hes wrong.
Think you would notice this doing 300mph?
(http://www.panzerworld.net/pictures/00132.jpg)
Or this guy?
(http://www.rhodesia.nl/t55camo4.jpg)
Spot the tank?
(http://www.756tank.com/Merkwiller756.jpg)
Would you be able to see this crafty SOB?
(http://digitaljournal.com/img/7/4/6/4/4/7/i/5/8/2/o/ISPR_TANK_617.jpg)
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To the OP:
IMO, this would make make the hispanos over-powered. They would (theoreticly) make every Hispano-armed plane a GV buster. The F4U-C, and Typhoon in particular could be nightmares, depending on how many 20mm rounds HTC decides it would take to kill a Panzer IV...
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Krusty , do YOU know what you are talking about ??
I i've spent more time in a tank than most in here (20 years on and off in the swedish army, also did I have a pilots certificate for just about 20 years.
Its me in the commanders cupola in picture below
(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3203/5842326719_7e7715ce04_b.jpg)
I know exactly what I talking about about spotting tanks from tanks and tanks from airplanes.
It has nothing to do what I think about GV'ing in here or not, we are talking what have any sense of realism
Where you get your information about tankspotting from is beyond me.
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Well untill HTC says what they are we just don't know. If I had to guess (and thats all it is) I would say they use HE ammo for all the aircraft cannons in game.
There is a color photo of 439 Sqn RCAF Typhoon being armed in March 1945 I have where the description states the load is 20mm belts loaded with 2 rounds HE/I and 2 rounds SAP/I alternating on the belt (a pair and a pair) being loaded into an operational fighter prior to a sortie. All that says is that squadron used that mix on that mission though and that both types could be made available. What a Burma Spitfire VIII loaded in 1945 typically? or a 1942 Hurricane IIc in Malta? who the heck knows.
As far as the "typical" loads for the 20mm Hispano? You are talking about a gun that was used from 1941-45 in the ETO, MED, CBI and PACIFIC in day fighters, night fighters, ground attack fighter-bombers and anti-ship wings vs the Germans, Italians and Japanese. Trying to determine a "standard" belting would be next to impossible. There would have been im sure a good quantity of both HE and AP ammunition types for the units. Arming tactics would be to the task at hand I would think much like most other countries air combat units during the war.
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Well untill HTC says what they are we just don't know. If I had to guess (and thats all it is) I would say they use HE ammo for all the aircraft cannons in game.
There is a color photo of 439 Sqn RCAF Typhoon being armed in March 1945 I have where the description states the load is 20mm belts loaded with 2 rounds HE/I and 2 rounds SAP/I alternating on the belt (a pair and a pair) being loaded into an operational fighter prior to a sortie. All that says is that squadron used that mix on that mission though and that both types could be made available. What a Burma Spitfire VIII loaded in 1945 typically? or a 1942 Hurricane IIc in Malta? who the heck knows.
As far as the "typical" loads for the 20mm Hispano? You are talking about a gun that was used from 1941-45 in the ETO, MED, CBI and PACIFIC in day fighters, night fighters, ground attack fighter-bombers and anti-ship wings vs the Germans, Italians and Japanese. Trying to determine a "standard" belting would be next to impossible. There would have been im sure a good quantity of both HE and AP ammunition types for the units. Arming tactics would be to the task at hand I would think much like most other countries air combat units during the war.
If I were a gamblin' man, and I'm not really, but if I were and pilots had a say in what their 20mm cannons were armed with I'd be willing to be the fighters would load up all HE, and the attack aircraft such as the Typhoon and Mossi, would load up a mix of HE and AP. The attack aircraft went after both soft and hard targets so they knew having a mix would be good. The fighters knew their targets were other aircraft so needing to be able to bust through armor was not much of a consideration.
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Aces High is not modeling tanks 100% covered and immobile so that they are invisible.
Aces High models open field mobile tank combat. We're not talking "buried up to the barrel in snow to hide it" ... we're not talking "They don't want to be bombed when they're not being used..."
We're talking "Let's storm the objectives, guns blazing!"
Spot the tank?
(http://t3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQRWTZIDaJYxbEc4oH3iqhRuIrqlgPisL09A8nOK06YiXovtKBxWg)
This one's REALLY hard to spot, give it a minute, you'll find it!
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/a0/Bundesarchiv_Bild_101III-Zschaeckel-206-35,_Schlacht_um_Kursk,_Panzer_VI_(Tiger_I).jpg/300px-Bundesarchiv_Bild_101III-Zschaeckel-206-35,_Schlacht_um_Kursk,_Panzer_VI_(Tiger_I).jpg)
What Sherman?
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/9/9b/American_Sherman_tank_Battle_of_Kapyong_23_April_1951_(AWM_P04953).jpg)
When you get to the desert it's REALLY tricky... They blend in SO well, even when sand-color paint is used!
(http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2010/05/23/article-1280701-09B79D2C000005DC-592_468x357.jpg)
Don't post some BS example where the tank is so dug in it's immobile and of no use other than a stationary line of defense. Post a real combat example, then let's talk.
P.S. Let me add an edit here. I'm not saying you're wrong. I'm saying you're wrong in the context of Aces High. This is first and foremost a game promoting combat, not combat AVOIDANCE. We don't have cloaking sheilds on our fighter planes. We don't have invisibility fields over our bombers. In both cases fighters and bombers could very well sneak right past an enemy fighter without being seen. The point isn't that they should be hidden.
The point is that, given the planes and the setup, you use your own skills to stay alive. In tanking for AH that means don't sit under a giant furball of fighters and jabos. You shouldn't be invisible to them if you decide to. Darwinism of the tankers -- you go out in the middle of a hostile zone you'll be attacked. You stay under cover or skirt the aerial action, you'll be fine.
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Aces High is not modeling tanks 100% covered and immobile so that they are invisible.
Aces High models open field mobile tank combat. We're not talking "buried up to the barrel in snow to hide it" ... we're not talking "They don't want to be bombed when they're not being used..."
We're talking "Let's storm the objectives, guns blazing!"
Spot the tank?
(http://t3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQRWTZIDaJYxbEc4oH3iqhRuIrqlgPisL09A8nOK06YiXovtKBxWg)
This one's REALLY hard to spot, give it a minute, you'll find it!
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/a0/Bundesarchiv_Bild_101III-Zschaeckel-206-35,_Schlacht_um_Kursk,_Panzer_VI_(Tiger_I).jpg/300px-Bundesarchiv_Bild_101III-Zschaeckel-206-35,_Schlacht_um_Kursk,_Panzer_VI_(Tiger_I).jpg)
What Sherman?
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/9/9b/American_Sherman_tank_Battle_of_Kapyong_23_April_1951_(AWM_P04953).jpg)
When you get to the desert it's REALLY tricky... They blend in SO well, even when sand-color paint is used!
(http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2010/05/23/article-1280701-09B79D2C000005DC-592_468x357.jpg)
Don't post some BS example where the tank is so dug in it's immobile and of no use other than a stationary line of defense. Post a real combat example, then let's talk.
P.S. Let me add an edit here. I'm not saying you're wrong. I'm saying you're wrong in the context of Aces High. This is first and foremost a game promoting combat, not combat AVOIDANCE. We don't have cloaking sheilds on our fighter planes. We don't have invisibility fields over our bombers. In both cases fighters and bombers could very well sneak right past an enemy fighter without being seen. The point isn't that they should be hidden.
The point is that, given the planes and the setup, you use your own skills to stay alive. In tanking for AH that means don't sit under a giant furball of fighters and jabos. You shouldn't be invisible to them if you decide to. Darwinism of the tankers -- you go out in the middle of a hostile zone you'll be attacked. You stay under cover or skirt the aerial action, you'll be fine.
Krusty, we do have cover from trees/bushes/buildings ect...
i think the original intention wasnt about being right out there in the open and being visible to all. Look at the second pic Tank-Ace put up, you can see the sherman hiding behind a building, kind of like people do in AH. of course its not covered in rubble but you should have easily spotted it. Thats an example of using the buildings for cover in AH.
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No... We have trees and some shrubs... Look at the "clever SOB" image... If that were modeled in AH, you know what we'd have? A giant porcupine sticking out of a flat terrain.
AH doesn't have ditches, draw, gulleys, ravines, natural land formations you can just roll a tank up to and remain mostly hidden except for the gun barrel. We don't model all the millions of natural real-world elements that conceal your location (sometimes) in the real world. This is not a ground combat simulator. They were tacked on as an afterthought, almost. They've developed into a fun part of the game, but by no means is it very realistic.
Again, it's trying to interject a no-icons request into a thread totally unrelated to it. If you set up a wirble in real life like we have in AH, put it in open fields where it's firing at you, put it near trees, buildings, of similar size and shape as AH has, and there's no damn way you'll miss it.
You want camouflage, take it to the wishlist forum. Don't go claiming GVs ought to be invisible to planes just because you don't like being bombed. (I say this to "You all" not just "you" -- as it's a common thread in all these GV icon threads)
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No... We have trees and some shrubs... Look at the "clever SOB" image... If that were modeled in AH, you know what we'd have? A giant porcupine sticking out of a flat terrain.
AH doesn't have ditches, draw, gulleys, ravines, natural land formations you can just roll a tank up to and remain mostly hidden except for the gun barrel. We don't model all the millions of natural real-world elements that conceal your location (sometimes) in the real world. This is not a ground combat simulator. They were tacked on as an afterthought, almost. They've developed into a fun part of the game, but by no means is it very realistic.
Again, it's trying to interject a no-icons request into a thread totally unrelated to it. If you set up a wirble in real life like we have in AH, put it in open fields where it's firing at you, put it near trees, buildings, of similar size and shape as AH has, and there's no damn way you'll miss it.
You want camouflage, take it to the wishlist forum. Don't go claiming GVs ought to be invisible to planes just because you don't like being bombed. (I say this to "You all" not just "you" -- as it's a common thread in all these GV icon threads)
tell me when the last time was, when you saw a tank hiding behind a building without aid of an icon? i guarantee if that icon was off you would have completely missed it.
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(http://i239.photobucket.com/albums/ff107/tymekeepyr/images-1.jpg)
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Krusty doesn't like to be wrong. :noid
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I'll take it due to the genisis of the game and it's original focus our rounds today are a legacy of a cluged HE round. Air to Air combat as the original driving force would have dictated the round.
Now...today on the farm.
We have a barn full of GV with specific armor tables from the drop down. Why is it unthinkable for Hispano ammunition to become job specific? The british saw a need to develop Hispano rounds that could pentrate 42mm of armor in North Africa/Med 1943 and India/Burma 24mm 1942. HurriC were used for ground attack duirng those periods.
I have no clue what round the U.S. NAVY decided would be loaded as thier default in the AN/M2. Anyone got a reference document for the NAVY?
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Krusty, if you want us to have to wait in the bushes for 30 minutes for camoflauge to be set up, then you should have to fly 150 miles each way to your target, and for over an hour in each sortie.
Almost every aspect of distance and time has been compresed in Aces High, specificly to help fights. There no difference between giving instant-effect camoflauge to tanks, than to giving the fighters a short 25-40 mile flight to combat instead of the 100-200 miles that could be seen in real life.
And your pictures of all that open open terrain is completly misreprasentative of the maps. You'll find that type of enviornment maybe 1 time out of 40. The rest of it is more like this:
(http://www.destination360.com/central-america/costa-rica/images/monteverde-cloud-forest.jpg)
Or like this:
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/85/Gallatin_National_Forest.jpg)
Just admit you're wrong Krusty, it will end up saving you some face later on.
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tell me when the last time was, when you saw a tank hiding behind a building without aid of an icon? i guarantee if that icon was off you would have completely missed it.
You guys must actually play the game even less than I do. Last time I went GV hunting, the icon disappeared any time I did not have direct LOS to the tank. If he was behind a tree or in one of those open barns, or inside a hanger, he was invisible. Wow, kind of like what you are asking for . . . .
Moving objects as large as a tank in relatively open terrain are very easy to make out from the air. A tank sitting still in the open would also be easily identified if the pilot happened to focus on it. Since the game does not offer a true 1 for 1 scale on what you are seeing, let alone complete color spectrum and lighting effects, icons (whether on the ground or in the air) are necessary to compensate. Especially for those of us with 17 inch monitors and 8 year old graphics cards.
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I've been playing for close to 6 years, and I haven't noticed the icon actually 'disapears' when the tank is under cover. Oh sure, maybe the object hes hiding in is larger than the icon, but I almost always have sight of the icon, even if the tank itself is hidden.
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You guys must actually play the game even less than I do. Last time I went GV hunting, the icon disappeared any time I did not have direct LOS to the tank. If he was behind a tree or in one of those open barns, or inside a hanger, he was invisible. Wow, kind of like what you are asking for . . . .
I can see tank icons perfectly fine when they are under trees and in barns, its a nice big red icon that usually reads "PNZR" or "M4".
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I gather Tank-Ace will hijack any post he can to grant himself license to whine at HiTech until he gets the name of the game changed to Tank World. Along with the only bombs available 100lb practice dummies and aircraft bullets solid lead. At the same time GV invisibility paint perk mods for 3 points each sorte.
Tank-Ace what a sad existance that you are incapable of starting your own "Whine" post directly at HiTech about tanks and keep it populated with like minded players willing to challenge HiTech directly. From past experience I've gotten the impression if you want something in the game, HiTech may favor listening to those with the moxy to make their own posting and intellegently support it. Rather than those who show the character flaw of thinking by hijacking every post they can to whine their point incessently, that will force HiTech to pay attention to your personal displeasure with his game. I suspect it just gets you on his dweeb meter next door to his ignor meter in the same building with his Krusty meter.
Why don't you and Krusty get a room together and explore your differences Corporeally? I'm sure they are infinantly more facinating to yourselves than the membership of this forum.
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Don't lump me in with them.
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Hey, it's your ankle Krusty, and he is in love with it.
Just pickup some "Ankle Love Begon" at the drugstore on the way to the motel. It's on the shelf next to the industrial duty cans of "Bear Begon". No one will hold it against you if you pick up the wrong can. In a hurry they look exactly the same on that shelf. "Ankle Love Begon" uses concentrated skunk extract and concentrated capsium while "Bear Begon" uses concentrated capsium. Just tell the judge you were in fear for your ankle's virtue.
Man's gotta do what a Man's gotta do........................
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Hey, dont look at me, i didn't start the hijacking. Its arguably not even a hijack, really we just went off on a parallel discussion. Seeng as this thread is about AP ammunition in the hispanos, which would increase their effectivness against vehicles, discussion of vehicles and how this could be kept from being unbalancing is perfectly reasonable.
And really buster, maybe 1 thread that I've hijacked. I don't care if its your time of the month or what, but don't take it out on us.
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Hey, dont look at me, i didn't start the hijacking. Its arguably not even a hijack, really we just went off on a parallel discussion. Seeng as this thread is about AP ammunition in the hispanos, which would increase their effectivness against vehicles, discussion of vehicles and how this could be kept from being unbalancing is perfectly reasonable.
And really buster, maybe 1 thread that I've hijacked. I don't care if its your time of the month or what, but don't take it out on us.
:rofl
thats funny. you do realize you've hijacked more threads than almost anyone here right?
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Lol, hardly son. I go off on tangents, I admit that, but the discussions are almost always connected in some way to the OP, or a related issue.
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The funny thing is that GVs are already easy to spot from the air without the aid of icons. They do tend to stick out like a sore thumb, especially the bright green M3s.
ack-ack
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Lol, hardly son. I go off on tangents, I admit that, but the discussions are almost always connected in some way to the OP, or a related issue.
:rofl
even funnier! half of your hijacks are nowhere near to the OP.
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skorpion is in every thread I read...
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This thread is now about the flavor of a 4am stripper pole :bolt:
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This thread is now about the flavor of a 4am stripper pole :bolt:
Which, to some desperate blokes, would not be all that bad. :aok