Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: Krupinski on December 18, 2011, 02:30:52 AM
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Discuss.
The IL2s roll was to spot and engage ground targets and vehicles. Should its spotting range be 600yds, or should it be granted the 1250yd extension?
Sorry if this is the wrong section, but I figured this would get more views here.
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A common rebuttle is going to be: "But that's what spotter aircraft were for, to guide the IL2s"
I agree with you but think about it, the IL2 and Storch are in similar categories, they are both devoted to air to ground based operations.
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Il2's were directed against and to targets they were not battle field reconnaissance they were battle field weapons. (yup just what you said)
However AH2 does not model the most effective weapon in the IL2's ordnance set... being the PTAB hollow charge cluster bomb 4 cassettes each carrying 48 of these things. Each bomb able to penetrate 60mm of armour.
The 37mm was comparatively rare beside these little beauties with which the IL2 would shine in AH.
Whether 600 is reasonable or not I am not sure yet and I would have thought that if it is not workable HTC will increase it.
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However AH2 does not model the most effective weapon in the IL2's ordnance set... being the PTAB hollow charge cluster bomb 4 cassettes each carrying 48 of these things. Each bomb able to penetrate 60mm of armour.
The 37mm was comparatively rare beside these little beauties with which the IL2 would shine in AH.
:aok
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What about the Hurri2D? :noid
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The IL-2 was not designed as a scout/spotter plane. It was designed as a direct support attack aircraft. I'd be willing to bet the Soviets send out out ahead "spotter" aircraft for the IL-2's, or sent a wave of infantry to find the enemy positions. :(
The IL-2 deserves no more advantage in spotting enemy gv's than the B29.
I knew a thread like this was bound to happen sooner than later. :rofl
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What about the Hurri2D? :noid
...Or the Stukka?!
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The IL-2 was not designed as a scout/spotter plane. It was designed as a direct support attack aircraft. I'd be willing to bet the Soviets send out out ahead "spotter" aircraft for the IL-2's, or sent a wave of infantry to find the enemy positions. :(
The IL-2 deserves no more advantage in spotting enemy gv's than the B29.
I knew a thread like this was bound to happen sooner than later. :rofl
You make it sound like it's not a reasonable discussion?
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Only recce aircraft should get the vis range bonus.
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The IL-2 deserves no more advantage in spotting enemy gv's than the B29.
There should be no icon range advantage for ANY aircraft, regardless of it's intended missioin/use/etc. The difficulties of spotting something from the air apply to all aircraft. You mitigate those issues by flying slower and lower -- the Storch will already be doing that -- no reason for it to have a longer GV icon spotting range.
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There should be no icon range advantage for ANY aircraft, regardless of it's intended missioin/use/etc. The difficulties of spotting something from the air apply to all aircraft. You mitigate those issues by flying slower and lower -- the Storch will already be doing that -- no reason for it to have a longer GV icon spotting range.
So, you think that even the Storch should have a 600 yard icon range? Do you know what a Whirblewind will do to a Storch that gets that close to it?
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I always thought that the IL2 could kill tanks far to easily. I'm fine with it being hard to spot GVs in it. I'm pretty much fine with anything that makes people learn a skill and play. I'm tired of all the "short cuts" can't battle it out with a tank with another tank? No problem up an IL2 and pound the tank which can't really defend it's self from an air attack unless they have a buddy in a whirble. Better yet fly in in a heavy buff formation at 3k and carpet bomb a GV fight!
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bomb****ing moving tanks will nearly be a thing of the past.... :furious no one can get on target at 600, you'll already have to know where he is. :old:
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:furious no one can get on target at 600, you'll already have to know where he is. :old:
... and for that, you often don't need an icon at all. Tanks caught moving in the open will still be bomb magnets and have a short life span, though maybe a little longer than today. But tanks hiding from planes will be much more difficult to spot (short icon ranges and loss of icon when under trees/in barns). If that really happens, it seems more "realistic" to me in the end.
At best, more cooperation between tankbusters, spotters and units on the ground will be required. If that would happen, it would be great. But we really have to wait how it all plays out. So give the changes one or two weeks to settle down...
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There should be no icon range advantage for ANY aircraft, regardless of it's intended missioin/use/etc. The difficulties of spotting something from the air apply to all aircraft. You mitigate those issues by flying slower and lower -- the Storch will already be doing that -- no reason for it to have a longer GV icon spotting range.
Interesting point here you have made.
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There should be no icon range advantage for ANY aircraft, regardless of it's intended missioin/use/etc. The difficulties of spotting something from the air apply to all aircraft. You mitigate those issues by flying slower and lower -- the Storch will already be doing that -- no reason for it to have a longer GV icon spotting range.
Although this makes a lot of sense, I don't think spotting GV's should be made any harder. Keeping the Storch with enhanced range at least gives something that ability. I'd argue that all dedicated attack aircraft (Stormi, HurriD, Stuka, light/medium buffs) should have the same range as the Storch, rather than reducing all ranges.
Its somewhat academic though as I doubt Storch's will last in the MA. They're a single engine version of the C47, painfully slow with no defensive ability. They will be swarmed en masse whenever they enter a sector. Its an intesting experiment to be sure, but I really don't see it working as planned.
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Although this makes a lot of sense, I don't think spotting GV's should be made any harder. Keeping the Storch with enhanced range at least gives something that ability. I'd argue that all dedicated attack aircraft (Stormi, HurriD, Stuka, light/medium buffs) should have the same range as the Storch, rather than reducing all ranges.
Which would a) negate the Storch's unique role and b) lead to further discussion why the Hurri D can see tank while Hurri C can not.
Its somewhat academic though as I doubt Storch's will last in the MA. They're a single engine version of the C47, painfully slow with no defensive ability. They will be swarmed en masse whenever they enter a sector. Its an intesting experiment to be sure, but I really don't see it working as planned.
I think you are misjudging the Storch a bit. It will hardly ever "enter a sector", it's mainly a tool of defense due to slow speed and serious need of fighter cover. But the fact that it will fly from Vbases ensures it's lasting utilization. As soon as a Vbase starts to flash with no sign of air cons, the Fi 156 will take off.
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lead to further discussion why the Hurri D can see tank while Hurri C can not.
Were these 2 models made for different reasons? I forsee more threads like this. :bolt:
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:noid :noid :noid :noid :airplane:
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Its too late now but making GV icon range inversely proportional to TAS (or even better Inversely proportional to TAS - #*GV speed) would still give the slower Storch the edge at spotting whilst penalising fast moving GV's and fast moving AC
(basically the faster the AC is moving the harder it is to spot GV's....the the faster a GV is driving the easier it is to spot them..... although the maths may be a bit resource sapping if the actual GV speed has to be taken into account)
If other AC want to hunt slow with flaps deployed then they get the benefit also.
(if #=2) (arena setting)
ICON range = 300k/(TAS- {2*GVS})
SET max icon range to 3000 by logic (if {icon}>3000 then 3000) or (if TAS < 100 then 3000)
SET min icon range to 500 by logic (if{icon}<500 then 500)
Example for max icon range
Icon @ 3000 =300k/(140-40) Storch @140 TAS GV @ 20
Example for min icon range
Icon @ 500 =300K/(500-0) La7 @500 GV stationary
Examples
Icon@ 2000 = 300k/(150 -0) Storch @150 GV stationary
Icon@ 1500 = 300k/(240-40) Hurri2d @ 240 GV @ 20
Icon@ 1200 = 300k/(250-0) Hurri2d @ 250 GV stationary
Icon@ 1000 = 300k/(300-0) Hurri2d @ 300 GV stationary
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If aircraft aren't going to have range icons, neither should the wirbelwinds.
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If aircraft aren't going to have range icons, neither should the wirbelwinds.
It's easier to see an aircraft in the sky than a tank on the ground. ;)
BTW, aircraft will follow the very same icon rule as GV when sitting on the ground... so in a way, it's what you are asking for.
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Although this makes a lot of sense, I don't think spotting GV's should be made any harder.
It's not being made harder, it's being made closer to real life. Ain't no neon sign on a tank in real world -- although in the MA there will have to be some kind of friend/foe ID.
** Edited for formatting
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we are not sure what is going to happen till the release, for all we know it may have it.
semp
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There should be no icon range advantage for ANY aircraft, regardless of it's intended missioin/use/etc. The difficulties of spotting something from the air apply to all aircraft. You mitigate those issues by flying slower and lower -- the Storch will already be doing that -- no reason for it to have a longer GV icon spotting range.
If there were no icons then you'd have an argument. However, since HTC generously uses icons they have the draw the line somewhere. There are a whole host of things HTC does for the sake of game play that I do not agree with (F3 views is one example), but this is one I certainly feel is just. I think the 1250 yard icon for gv's while stopped is generous for the Storch, and the 2750 yard icon range for moving gv's is VERY generous. If HTC will need to adjust anything once the new version is released, that will be it. The 2750 yard icon range is a looooong way.
The 625 yard icon for parked gv's and 1250 yard icon moving gv's for all other aircraft is still generous.
The learning curve wont be as long as many think. For far too long it has been very much in favor of the aircraft. It certainly was not that easy in WWII. :aok
Just remember that the Storch is very fragile, is very slow, and is a sitting duck for any enemy fighters. ;)
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Which would a) negate the Storch's unique role and b) lead to further discussion why the Hurri D can see tank while Hurri C can not.
That was kind of my intent...well, not to negate the Storch, but to use its introduction to up the relevance of some under utilized attack aircraft. I think the yardstick for what planes apply out of the short list would be strictly game driven. Hurri C are used far more in an air to air roll, and are far more capable in that regard.
I think you are misjudging the Storch a bit. It will hardly ever "enter a sector", it's mainly a tool of defense due to slow speed and serious need of fighter cover. But the fact that it will fly from Vbases ensures it's lasting utilization. As soon as a Vbase starts to flash with no sign of air cons, the Fi 156 will take off.
I would think we will see it at air base captures too. How do you manage the GV's otherwise, either offensively or defensively? Without the Storch flying it seems to me that fighters would have to fill that roll. The potential is there for fighter to be forced to play the roll of the Storch and fly around at tree top looking for GV's...which kinda defeats the purpose of having the Storch in the first place.
Certainly don't disagree about the Vbase analysis. I would add that a blinking Vbase will generate more interest from fighters hunting for an easy kill.
That all being said, I'm not against the addition, it should prove interesting. I would like to see some of the attack aircraft included in the enhanced vis range category though, just to add a bit more variety.
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How many of you will not be exploiting "Full Zoom" in an IL2 as a visual aid to keep from flying over parked wirbels?
How many of you will add some kind of ranging stadia marks into a gunsight to help you determin your safe distance to wirbels?
Use an Angular Mil formula. Find the length and width in centemeters of the wirbel for (S) and convert 1500 yards to Meters for (D). Then compute the (Mil) value for the width at 1500 yards for the space between your stadia marks in a 512x512 gunsight mask. 1Mil=2Pixel.
D=((S/100)/Mil) * 1000
D=distance to target in meters
S=width of target in centemeters
Mil=number of Mil unit.
How many of you are going to adapt to and overcome this opposed to whining in a seperate post to get HiTech to increase icon ranges the day after the next update?
I feel sorry for the Storch driver who trys to tag any vehical with the orange smoke canisters. Though the smart Storch pilot working with a bomber pilot(s) will create a smoke corridor for the bombers to carpet. This will make wirbels worth their weight in gold to tank drivers if they can get one or two to support them. M3's will live longer and deliver more GV supplies. M3's will probably take more bases now that the icon won't be a big here I am sign anymore.
I can see the vTards giving up air hoards for ground hoarding with this. We will have a new class of GV aces who really know how to range with their optics. GV to GV base fights will become closer and much more personal with fewer low jabo and bombers messing with it. This is where the storch and orange smoke corridors come in to play with coordinated medium alt carpet bombing.
Seems like a good deal to me. I have always thought it a bit too easy for me to kill tanks with an IL2 because of the Big Red Neon ICON. Hiding in barns seemed kind of silly as I shot many of them through the door after seeing thier Icon flash. The B25H 75mm will be interesting now against GV.
Wonder how our grandfathers saw GV's during WW2 with no Icons from the air?
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Well, I been thinking about this and although I love bombing GV's, I also love GV'ing too and it's pretty dang tough to hide from attack aircraft and even being in a barn doesn't help much. :salute
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How many of you will not be exploiting "Full Zoom" in an IL2 as a visual aid to keep from flying over parked wirbels?
Easier with Trak IR than without it. Full Zoom with only POV will leave gaps IMO. Giving TrakIR attackers the edge.
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We will have a new class of GV aces who really know how to range with their optics.
I don't know where any new ones are gonna come from, there already are no icons for gv vs. gv. :headscratch:
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Easier with Trak IR than without it. Full Zoom with only POV will leave gaps IMO. Giving TrakIR attackers the edge.
I agree. I already do this. Once a GV is spoted it's very easy to keep the spot in center view with TrackIR. I don't need an icon most of the time, but it doesn't hurt. I don't forsee this being much of an issue for we experienced GV hunters.
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BTW, aircraft will follow the very same icon rule as GV when sitting on the ground... so in a way, it's what you are asking for.
Does that mean C-47 parked behind tree and waiting for capture is almost invisible for defenders ?
For sure M3's are going to be a much safer now.