Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: dirtdart on December 19, 2011, 09:15:53 AM
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Lyric was saying they are out with the new update.
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and? :headscratch:
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I apologize for not expanding my comment:
Lyric mentioned the arado guns were being removed for the next update. Is this the case?
I am curious because I have seen HTC respond to Krusty in the past with "just because it was never used does not mean it could not have been used". Specifically to the overload of ammo in the P-47s and the combination of Bombs and Rockets on the P-51.
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Lyric mentioned the arado guns were being removed for the next update. Is this the case?
My feelings on such matters in general: As long as there is no public word or announcement from HTC, I just wait for the new version to show up. Many things that players say about what "HTC will or won't do" are either wishful thinking, plain rumors, a trolling attempt or just some joking around. (again meant in general, not trying to allege anything to (grammar?) Lyric)
And in particular: At least in the beta, the guns are still there... ;)
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We have no plans to change the arado.
HiTech
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Thanks ht for clearing the mud. I was hoping they were not out.
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I apologize for not expanding my comment:
Lyric mentioned the arado guns were being removed for the next update. Is this the case?
I am curious because I have seen HTC respond to Krusty in the past with "just because it was never used does not mean it could not have been used". Specifically to the overload of ammo in the P-47s and the combination of Bombs and Rockets on the P-51.
HTC's comments were more towards bombs/rockets together, and combinations that are by themselves historical, but maybe together were not.
What I showed with the P-47s and what Lyric showed with the Ar234 are a different matter. There's "combinations" and then there's "inaccurate loadouts"... What Lyric has shown is that the guns were NEVER in use. IMO much like the Mossie16 it still warrants a perk even without them.
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Lyric was saying they are out with the new update.
No I said the AR-234B won't have any rear guns when it the AR-234B gets updated.
Not the next AHII update.
As far as rear guns are concerned read this see what you think.
http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,305406.0.html
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We have no plans to change the arado.
HiTech
I sincerely am at a loss lyric. Please elaborate the discussion on 200. You stated the Arado would lose its guns (next update, when updated, I do not recall). What would lead you to believe this, considering what HT just said? Are we getting a new variant of the Arado 234?
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I sincerely am at a loss lyric. Please elaborate the discussion on 200. You stated the Arado would lose its guns (next update, when updated, I do not recall). What would lead you to believe this, considering what HT just said? Are we getting a new variant of the Arado 234?
OK long story short here.
I think NKL5 or Spikes landed kills in a AR-234 I don't remember who over the weekend.
Both of these guys had shot me down a long time back with the AR-234B to the best of my memory.
I had read a long time back that there was something about the rear facing guns that did not add up to what we had in the game. If you read my link I posted you will see that I had found the guns pointed down & back not up & back as we have in game now.
I later found out by getting just about every book published on Ar-234's that no AR-234B had rear facing guns much to my surprise.
So when I was shot down again by AR-234 guns & the smack talk that followed with the bragging of the prowess of the skill of shooting me down with said guns. I decided to make it my IL-2 & F3 mode & prove that the rear guns should be gone.
So any time I see AR-234B kills with rear guns I mention enjoy those rear guns while you can on 200 because by the next update of the AR-234b they will be gone.
There was only 3 models of Ar234's made. The C model was the only one with rear guns & only two prototypes & they scrapped all future plans for the rear guns.
Hitech stated that there is no plans to change the Ar-234 based off your question. That I would say is fact based off the question you asked?
If they get around to updating the AR-234B any time soon & It has rear guns I would very much like to see the information that was based off.
That answer it for you?
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Sounds like someone stole your sweet roll.
:rofl
I also thought it was a fact that HTC sometimes mixed versions to make a best representation of the aircraft.
Also this is a game so a bit of fantasy may be ok.
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Sounds like someone stole your sweet roll.
:rofl
Yes :D
I also thought it was a fact that HTC sometimes mixed versions to make a best representation of the aircraft. Examples please?
Also this is a game so a bit of fantasy may be OK. Maybe? Where do you draw the line on that though?
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I also thought it was a fact that HTC sometimes mixed versions to make a best representation of the aircraft.
I don't think two prototypes warrant that.
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Last time I checked the 234B came with the guns as factory standard. Some, perhaps most, pilots had them removed in the field, but that doesn't matter. Also most of the captured 234's still had the guns mounted, and on many of the wartime pictures I can find the periscope-sight is still mounted (and presumably also the guns).
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Last time I checked the 234B came with the guns as factory standard. Some, perhaps most, pilots had them removed in the field, but that doesn't matter. Also most of the captured 234's still had the guns mounted, and on many of the wartime pictures I can find the periscope-sight is still mounted (and presumably also the guns).
Not correct.
Guns--> (C model),bomb mounts & periscope were not fitted at the factory they had to be sent to another location to be fitted.
Show me one photo of any AR-234B with rear facing guns. Show me one instance of any captured AR-234B having rear mounted guns.
Trust me I have looked.
When you get past Wiki & all the older books & get to the newer ones that have Copied actual Arado documents you will see that it never happened.
Get you a copy of this book.
http://luftwaffereviews.blogspot.com/2007_08_01_archive.html
480 pages of actual AR-234 documents.
Periscope had two purposes one was to look backwards for enemy contacts & two to look forward & let its dive bomb computer release bombs.
The periscope was planned to be used for rear guns & drawings do exist of AR-234B'S showing this. Again no such aircraft was made the C model was it as far as rear guns are concerned. You can look at the link I posted to see the actual guns & how they were fitted on the C model earlier in the thread.
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You want the game changed. The burden of proof lies on you. Show us your documentation.
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Uh, dude I don't really know how to say this but um...
He did
http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,305406.0.html
and
http://luftwaffereviews.blogspot.com/2007_08_01_archive.html
:ahand
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Uh, dude I don't really know how to say this but um...
He did
http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,305406.0.html
and
http://luftwaffereviews.blogspot.com/2007_08_01_archive.html
:ahand
;)
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Interesting. I didn't see that thread. However, some of his sources say "few" were installed while others say "none". Which is right?
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Interesting. I didn't see that thread. However, some of his sources say "few" were installed while others say "none". Which is right?
Both are correct if you break it down to model types.
B's had none C's did.
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Sounds like someone stole your sweet roll.
:rofl
Yes :D
I also thought it was a fact that HTC sometimes mixed versions to make a best representation of the aircraft. Examples please?
Also this is a game so a bit of fantasy may be OK. Maybe? Where do you draw the line on that though?
If i am not mistaken the i-16 is one.
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I remember those threads, but again it goes to could have should have. Name me one airplane that allowed you to cycle though twenty different gunsight patterns. Maybe it is ok now and then to just let certain things. I frankly enjoy the rear guns. They add a different sort of challenge to the game. I had a great Arado on Arado fight with don a few years back, something I still recall when I fly the Arado.
In your estimation were the guns not added because they were a feel good design and were not capable of doing what they do, or were they not added because of production challenges, like the off site installation you alluded to.
Would it not be best just to get rid of f3 mode all together?
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Both are correct if you break it down to model types.
B's had none C's did.
After checking the documents I have on the Ar234- which not surprisingly are the same as what Lyric1 has, I have no evidence the Ar-234B carried defensive armaments, however it clearly shows C models which do (rearward). I must say excellent catch Lyric, I've been over those documents a few times and entirely missed the fact they didn't carry rear firing 20s!.
I can show about 20 captured Ar-234B models, although the photos are in grave condition they nevertheless show they did not have rear firing 20s.
Pretty sure Lusche would enjoy them, as I can only read broken german its tough to translate the articles, I did scan them to PDF.
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Did not carry them, but the bays are there, or did not carry them (were not part of the design)?
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Ok, remove the rearward firing guns and give it the forward firing gunpod instead! :D
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I remember those threads, but again it goes to could have should have.
No, it doesn't go to that at all.
In your estimation were the guns not added because they were a feel good design and were not capable of doing what they do, or were they not added because of production challenges, like the off site installation you alluded to.
It doesn't matter 1 iota. The fact that matters is NONE served with rear guns. NONE. Period. End of discussion. No ifs, ands, or buts. It didn't happen, ever.
You want it because you're used to it as a bit of a crutch. That doesn't make it:
1) belong in the game
2) right
3) worth leaving as-is because the mistake was already made
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I remember those threads, but again it goes to could have should have. Name me one airplane that allowed you to cycle though twenty different gunsight patterns. Maybe it is ok now and then to just let certain things. I frankly enjoy the rear guns. They add a different sort of challenge to the game. I had a great Arado on Arado fight with don a few years back, something I still recall when I fly the Arado.
In your estimation were the guns not added because they were a feel good design and were not capable of doing what they do, or were they not added because of production challenges, like the off site installation you alluded to.
Would it not be best just to get rid of f3 mode all together?
The first paragraph gets down to personal choice you like the rearward guns :aok That's cool & I compliment you on your ability to figure out how to use them.
I personally can't nut them out :headscratch: & because of that I just don't load them on when I fly this plane.
I can't hit anything with them so why bother. Again personal choice here.
Second paragraph the Germans wanted guns for defence they wanted guns that could be controlled by the pilot & for this to happen they wanted guns that could traverse via the pilot using the rear view with the periscope.
Many drawings were done blue prints clearly show this was an option they wanted. How ever the technology was not there to do this yet.
Also when the first 234's were made they had no landing gear they used a trolley to take off with then landed on skids like the ME-163.
The first B model's with landing gear were prototypes also not meant for production. The C model was where Arado put all their eggs in one basket so to speak.
How ever when the German high command looked at the potential of the 234B's & keeping in mind the ME-262 was slated to be a bomber not a fighter per Hitlers request.
AR-234's were going to be the jet fighter when they got the C model rolling. That changed once the 262 was redirected back as a fighter.
So they made 210 or so 234B's some were photo recons & others were slated to be bombers.
The compartment that housed the cameras also was the spot where the rear guns would have been placed.
All the 234B's actually had the ability to mount rear guns. The connecting points were there to do that.
The night fighter 234's used that same compartment for the radar operator so there was a small amount that are in fact a two man crew.
They needed planes fast so they pushed the 234-B in to production it was never meant to be a front line aircraft & the rear guns had not been figured out yet,so they simply just did not bother as the C model was ramping up.
Third paragraph ultimately yes get rid of F3 mode on the 234-B. First lets get the periscope figured out with it's rear views before that happens. Also I long moved on about rear guns I want to figure out the dive bombing ability's of this plane & the on board computer that did this with the forward view of the periscope.
These are options that were standard & by all accounts worked quite well.
Forward facing guns? I think would be a fun option the night fighters did not shoot anything down as they could not adjust to the closing speeds at night on slow bombers & they also were terrified of debris hitting that Plexiglas nose.
One fellow borrowed that gun pod & put it on his plane in Italy. He did dog fight with it if he had not crashed the plane on a hard landing he may have been the first 234-B pilot with confirmed kills.
Maybe a perk for ORDS deal that one :headscratch: kind of on the fence about it though.
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Did not carry them, but the bays are there, or did not carry them (were not part of the design)?
Did not carry rearward guns on the B model.
Had the ability to put them in as all the hardware was on the B models to do this.
Were part of the design just not figured out in time for the B production run & hence not installed.
Rear guns were then rolled over to the C model could not make them work & was scrapped & the war ended. So much for the C model never got past the prototypes. :headscratch: Probably just as well. :aok
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No, it doesn't go to that at all.
It doesn't matter 1 iota. The fact that matters is NONE served with rear guns. NONE. Period. End of discussion. No ifs, ands, or buts. It didn't happen, ever.
You want it because you're used to it as a bit of a crutch. That doesn't make it:
1) belong in the game
2) right
3) worth leaving as-is because the mistake was already made
Krusty you sure are passionate about some peculiar things when it comes to accuracy. You want accuracy start with deep sixing custom gunsights, I might as well have a plane done up in Rear Bears paint scheme....
Lyric, thanks that was sort of the answer I was looking for. I have quite a few pics of the Arado at the Smithsonian, mever noticed until you mentioned it that the ports were not on it. Would it be easier for HT to just rename the plane the 234C?
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Lyric, thanks that was sort of the answer I was looking for. I have quite a few pics of the Arado at the Smithsonian, mever noticed until you mentioned it that the ports were not on it. Would it be easier for HT to just rename the plane the 234C?
That wont work first off the the AR234-C never got beyond development stage. It had forward cannons as well as intially rear guns. It also had four engines instead of the two.
Completely different animal.
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/ar234info3-1.jpg)
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/ar234info2.jpg)
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/ar234info10.jpg)
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Very interesting. I wonder what data was used for our current version?
Speaking on the forward guns.... A funny thing happened to me the first time I flew one. I saw the guns and did not realize they fired to the rear. I celebrated as if I had discovered the atom in my new found poor mans 262. So I get up and running ... Line up on some chap, gently squeeze... The sound of cannon fire and nothing. What the deuce?
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Very interesting. I wonder what data was used for our current version?
Speaking on the forward guns.... A funny thing happened to me the first time I flew one. I saw the guns and did not realize they fired to the rear. I celebrated as if I had discovered the atom in my new found poor mans 262. So I get up and running ... Line up on some chap, gently squeeze... The sound of cannon fire and nothing. What the deuce?
:headscratch: No idea most likely books & documents available at the time of it's inclusion in the game.
Lot of new stuff printed since then.
Interesting thing I found tonight it was not the first time the periscope was tried in combat.
This also tells me a lot as to how the the Periscope worked on the 234.
Also that they didn't use it much as it didn't seem to work on this DO-217.
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/dornperi-1.jpg)
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/dornperi1-1.jpg)
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/dornperi2-1.jpg)
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After finding the information on the DO-217B Periscope & how with the aid of it's mirrors gave the pilot the illusion while looking through it he was looking forward at his target.
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/dornperi1-1-1.jpg)
I think this is how the views would have looked some what from the pilots perspective if he had rear guns to shoot with on the B model & most likely the view from the C model.
In this thread http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,305406.0.html All evidence of rear pointing guns on the AR-234'S shows it was rearward facing & downward.
From the blueprint drawings I think it was somewhere at about one & a half to approximately two & a half degrees.
Interestingly it is about the same angle as our AHII AR-234-B guns except in game ours are upward facing.
So the pilots knew the angle of their rear guns & all the views they would have looking through that periscope. I would assume they would have had there cross hairs on the sites set at a specific range based off what they would have seen & the 20mm ballistics.
All the AR-234-B's made I think would have had a rearview through the periscope like this below. There was no need for a forward shooting view through the periscope since he was not shooting with rearward guns very similar to the ME-110 Periscope view. The only thing he needed to know was there some one behind him & where.
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/ziel1.jpg)
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/234peri3a.jpg)
I had a squadmate put his Mosquito XVI in a position that most likely the AR-234 pilot would need to have to shoot at an enemy. In this case the plane is at 600 yards away.
Now imagine one eye is closed the other is on the periscope & now this is what you will see as your new forward view to track & shoot an aircraft just as you would in any conventional fighter. :headscratch: Or there abouts.
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/234peri3ab.jpg)
I would say if rear guns were ever to be used pilots would try & avoid at all costs getting in a situation to have to use them.
234 pilots would always have to be higher & ahead of the target to get a firing solution I think this was enough of a reason just to do away with them all together. :aok
Why not no allied plane could catch them at full speed.
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Now imagine one eye is closed the other is on the periscope & now this is what you will see as your new forward view to track & shoot an aircraft just as you would in any conventional fighter. :headscratch: Or there abouts.
I'm not sure if I understand what you mean here. The mirrored, upside-down, image makes it much more intuitive for the pilot. Pull the stick and the target moves down, left/right rudder moves the target the way you'd expect. The tail and rest of the world may look wonky, but if you focus on the sight and the target then the sight/target react to control inputs intuitively to a pilot.
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I'm not sure if I understand what you mean here. The mirrored, upside-down, image makes it much more intuitive for the pilot. Pull the stick and the target moves down, left/right rudder moves the target the way you'd expect. The tail and rest of the world may look wonky, but if you focus on the sight and the target then the sight/target react to control inputs intuitively to a pilot.
:aok I believe so.
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I'm not sure if I understand what you mean here. The mirrored, upside-down, image makes it much more intuitive for the pilot. Pull the stick and the target moves down, left/right rudder moves the target the way you'd expect. The tail and rest of the world may look wonky, but if you focus on the sight and the target then the sight/target react to control inputs intuitively to a pilot.
Except the trajectory of the bullets would be reversed. They would appear to fall "up".
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Except the trajectory of the bullets would be reversed. They would appear to fall "up".
:aok
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The JU-288 had a pretty interesting set up as well for the rear guns. The pilot did not aim the guns like the 217 (what the hell were they thinking), the rear gunner did. But, it is a mechanical interface between the gunner and the guns that is extraordinary. I am a bit of a nostalgic tech geek, and anything put together with slide rules and guts is pretty cool in my book.
I understand now from your postings that indeed the 234B had no such guns. It would indeed be sad because the list of aircraft who have made craters in the ground trying to sneak up on Arados is indeed impressive, especially if flying with tracers off :devil.
There is another one for you to tackle Krusty, on realism, how many air to air fights did the guys not run tracers? Is it possible to delink the 1-5 tracer, sure, but did it ever happen?
Someone mentioned "where do you draw the line?" I guess that is for another thread.
<S> lyric
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There is another one for you to tackle Krusty, on realism, how many air to air fights did the guys not run tracers? Is it possible to delink the 1-5 tracer, sure, but did it ever happen?
Someone mentioned "where do you draw the line?" I guess that is for another thread.
<S> lyric
Tracers were often, but not always, pilot preference.
I know the some in the 56th FG used 5 tracers only near the last 50 rounds to denote a low ammo state.
wrongway
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Some light reading. :D
http://www.4shared.com/office/yJjgC6-w/ARADO_AR_234_DER_ERSTE_STRAHLB.html