Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Tupac on December 28, 2011, 06:56:31 PM
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Was terrorizing the pattern at 5C1 practicing my xwind landings and was on downwind, and watched a stearman ground loop and end up in the grass. He got stuck, but managed to get out of the mud. Nothing got bent except his ego, I saw him flying later in the day and he actually had his xwind correction in for takeoff. He actually learned something.
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Was terrorizing the pattern at 5C1 practicing my xwind landings and was on downwind, and watched a stearman ground loop and end up in the grass. He got stuck, but managed to get out of the mud. Nothing got bent except his ego, I saw him flying later in the day and he actually had his xwind correction in for takeoff. He actually learned something.
Big words from a little 200 hour wonder flying the most docile training wheeled airplane ever built.
Wait till you scare yourself and hope you live through it, ace.
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Headshot.
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*300 hour wonder
I've got 30 hours in the most docile tailwheel airplane ever built, too.
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I meant to say I was terrorizing the pattern.
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Wait till you scare yourself and hope you live through it, ace.
I don't think there is a pilot anywhere who hasnt scared themselves.
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Big words from a little 200 hour wonder flying the most docile training wheeled airplane ever built.
Wait till you scare yourself and hope you live through it, ace.
Looks like we're dealing with a bad-ass here.
(http://emotibot.net/pix/3492.gif)
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cj5fs8-MF9g
This was at T82, they werent quite as bad at 5C1. I guess I am biased against the stearman guy because I watched him almost have a mid-air with my friend in the cub over the summer. I don't like him as a person, he is a real turd.
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It's not like all I've done is fly around the pattern. I've flown my docile little airplane all over the central part of the united states. My plane will ice up if I fly into visible moisture below freezing just like anything else. Ive made go/nogo decisions, and have had plenty of opportunities to kill myself. I towed gliders during the last bit of the soaring season this year. My experience is limited, but I am not an idiot, and do not deserve to be talked down to.
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It's not like all I've done is fly around the pattern. I've flown my docile little airplane all over the central part of the united states. My plane will ice up if I fly into visible moisture below freezing just like anything else. Ive made go/nogo decisions, and have had plenty of opportunities to kill myself. I towed gliders during the last bit of the soaring season this year. My experience is limited, but I am not an idiot, and do not deserve to be talked down to.
:aok dont let him talk you down.
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I don't think there is a pilot anywhere who hasnt scared themselves.
I've never scared myself. I have had a student scare the dickens out of me though.
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You don't deserve to be talked down to? I'm not but what's the point of this thread? Authoring a few condescending sentences from the perspective of someone who hasn't been humbled by Fate in an airplane doesn't count?
When you've been truly humbled by an airplane, and you will, I hope you look back and feel shame for authoring such a deplorable paragraph. If you're lucky you won't bend any metal.
I'm not talking down to you. I'm talking right between your eyes hoping something takes. I'm not your mother not am I your instructor but have you given consideration that you might share eerily similar hazardous attitudes/traits to those who have come before you. Which basically includes most who had 300 whole hours at some point. I'm not saying you're a bad pilot. I'm not questioning your uber pilot skillz. I'm telling you that the creation of this thread and what you wrote had no business being created. A 300 hour wonder kid who doesn't even know what they don't know is a dangerous thing to be. I know, I was one.
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Honestly if it was anyone else besides this guy I wouldn't have made the thread. You're right, it's kinda a dickish thing I did making this thread. The most ponies I've ever PIC'ed behind is 235. I think a stearman is 350, tw, with a narrow wheel base. It's not an easy thing flying one I'd imagine. Good night, guys.
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I'm not talking down to you.
Typical jet hotshot.
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I would be willing to bet the ones that don't get what Golfer is trying to say, haven't :salute :cheers: :aok been alive as long as he has been flying.......... :aok :salute :cheers:
NOT
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I would be willing to bet the ones that don't get what Golfer is trying to say, haven't :salute :cheers: :aok been alive as long as he has been flying.......... :aok :salute :cheers:
NOT
Well, you might lose that bet since I believe Golfer is about 30 or so. I have sweaters older than him.
However, I agree with him. A 300-hour, non-military, recreational pilot needs another 200 hours in his logbook just to not be considered a novice anymore.
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Golfer will never have a career in the diplomatic service but he has a point. There are only two kinds of pilots, those who will do something stupid and those who have, sometimes.... :o ahem, more than once. 'But I learned about flying from that', to coin a phrase.
The more you fly, the more opportunities you have to add to the tally.
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Tupac I happen to know that guy and how he has not killed himself by now is beyond me.
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28. And like cpxxx says, I'm not known for my diplomatic skills. I'm not one to talk from a great wealth of experience from decades of flying because I don't have either. I just hit 10 years, 4500 hours of which only 500 were spent instructing. Traffic reports, skydivers, charter flying, airline, and corporate flying have paid the bills (the airline just didn't cover all the bills). In fact for the last 3-1/2 years I've been and still am to my knowledge the youngest pilot on a very well known charter certificate. Starting in line service and an online degree program gave me a leg up on those who go to university for their education and ratings by allowing me to do so while working/flying full time.
Now when I do instruction it's usually more advanced training such as basic aerobatic, tailwheel and instrument refresher stuff for weekend warriors and well to do folks who don't have the opportunity to stay proficient in their airplanes as they'd like.
Anyways I write like a crotchety old bastage on occasion but it's only because those darn kids won't get off my lawn...
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Posting about seeing a ground loop isn't the act of an arrogant pilot, seeing it happen is kind of a "wow, did you see that event". Making a comment about him learning to apply crosswind techniques to his landing is a tad cocky, but to be honest it is more or less human nature.
Rather for someone to sit on this board and act like they are the ultimate authority on aviation is in my mind the height of arrogance.
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Rather for someone to sit on this board and act like they are the ultimate authority on aviation is in my mind the height of arrogance.
Yawn. (swims away)
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Yawn. (swims away)
No offense Golfer, but did you get your snickers today? You're acting quite the diva. Something wrong? 'Cause you seem on edge. Seriously.
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Eagl, my hero...
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Well, you might lose that bet since I believe Golfer is about 30 or so. I have sweaters older than him.
However, I agree with him. A 300-hour, non-military, recreational pilot needs another 200 hours in his logbook just to not be considered a novice anymore.
My bad, thought he was older for some reason :headscratch: :salute :salute
NOT
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No offense Golfer, but did you get your snickers today? You're acting quite the diva. Something wrong? 'Cause you seem on edge. Seriously.
History with Dago, he's trolling and I'm not biting.
The rest I'll attribute to holiday cheer. I've had a few conversations with Tupac over the last few weeks and it's best I check out. Maybe it's generational. Maybe it's because I see some of the things if go back and change about myself when I was one of those teenage wonder kids. A kid who doesn't see the forest through the trees saying something snarky like that just rubbed me the wrong way.
Maybe its perspective. I get a chance to see some real good ones in high school program earning them college credit and upon completion their Airframe certificate. They work hard, come from nothing and get something in return. Tupac has gone from someone worth rooting to a kid seeking attention. It's been a little while in the making and maybe it just was one face palm too many.
I'm sure he's quite capable but after a few of the conversations off the board we've had I guess it's time to let him learn for himself. Been there, didn't listen, done that.
Gonna get a snickers bar and see if that helps. Hey look...a tree
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Golfer,
I read Tupac's post and did not find it to be condescending. In my opinion, he was not acting like a "know-it-all" or anything else for that matter, he was just sharing an observation of something that happened followed up by the guys corrective measures.
Considering your past with "know-it-all" statements in aviation, I think it would behoove you to simply let Tupac be and perhaps offer up an apology for something that you took out of context.
Have a good day. :)
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Golfer,
I read Tupac's post and did not find it to be condescending. In my opinion, he was not acting like a "know-it-all" or anything else for that matter, he was just sharing an observation of something that happened followed up by the guys corrective measures.
Considering your past with "know-it-all" statements in aviation, I think it would behoove you to simply let Tupac be and perhaps offer up an apology for something that you took out of context.
Have a good day. :)
You and I both know a guy in a Stearman isn't seeing a crosswind for the first time. Suggesting he "learned something" after ending up in the mud, while likely not untrue, that something being as trivial as applying crosswind correction or basic control of the airplane ain't it. Especially from the perspective of Tupac in his 172.
Or that his Facebook status had him proclaiming himself the "master of crosswind landings..."
Like I said. Perspective and cumulative eye rolls finally added up.
Not sorry.
Happy belated Festivus.
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Gravity never sleeps.
Make the right choice and dont fly.
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Golfer,
I am finding that I lean a bit more towards the "benefit of the doubt" as I get older as opposed to being a "know-it-all" when I was younger. It's funny how your parents always seem to be right and it takes some of us (me especially) a longer time then the others to figure that out.
Either way, I did not have the benefit of your other observations.
Hope you had a Merry Christmas and have a Happy and Safe New Year.
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Same to you Bodhi. Safety, prosperity and good health to you and yours.
(And everyone else and everyone else's)
Now it's time for a snickers and some (correction) rum and grass skirt chicks.
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You and I both know a guy in a Stearman isn't seeing a crosswind for the first time. Suggesting he "learned something" after ending up in the mud, while likely not untrue, that something being as trivial as applying crosswind correction or basic control of the airplane ain't it. Especially from the perspective of Tupac in his 172.
Or that his Facebook status had him proclaiming himself the "master of crosswind landings..."
Like I said. Perspective and cumulative eye rolls finally added up.
Not sorry.
Happy belated Festivus.
The "crosswind master" statement was in jest. I thought I conveyed that. Sometimes I have difficulty putting thoughts into text. Today I soloed a 210 with a 310hp engine in preparation for taking my neighbor to MD Anderson in Houston next month. (Her husband will be out of town, so I offered to fly her up there in the 210. She needs to be there at 8AM, otherwise I would take the skyhawk. My mom is coming so she can drive her to the hospital.) That thing is quite the beast. I by no means think I am the master of crosswind landings, or flying in general.
Anything proclaiming me the master/grand gypsy/king/ or anything of the like is most likely meant in jest by me, unless I finally get crowned prince of Nigeria like the emails promise.
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Just because I mostly fly a skyhawk does not mean that is the only thing I am proficient in.
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And as you can see
Tupac I happen to know that guy and how he has not killed himself by now is beyond me.
He has quite the reputation around here.
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Tupac has gone from someone worth rooting to a kid seeking attention.
I've studied my bellybutton off, gone from 0 hours to 300 and PP-ASEL IA hp/com tw just because I want attention. That's it, congratulations. You got it. Winner winner chicken dinner.
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No. I mean your posts here. From watching someone come up, learn, full of enthusiasm and fun to watch. You've transformed with all the videos, posts and self serving posts of accomplishments and how good you are which seems more an attention grab than sharing your accomplishments. Start a blog and call it "Look at me!!!"
I wasn't entertained by you videoing your first solo boasting with your humming. I shake my head that you'd make your first post after making this statement:
(http://i538.photobucket.com/albums/ff345/martinguitarist/f16f9959.jpg)
It all adds up. Now I'm done. Stay safe. I haven't anything to offer, well meaning as its been. Remember these threads in a few years and look back. See if you're proud but until then, fly safe.
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A 300 hour wonder kid who doesn't even know what they don't know is a dangerous thing to be. I know, I was one.
Very profound statement. Hopefully he will understand what you've said and not get his back up.
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Why anyone would give Tupac toejam after following his posts regarding his flying over the past years is beyond me. And don't give me the trying to keep him safe nonsense. You're a joe-shmoe on a forum on the internet. If Tupoc has any sense he won't listen to you based on that alone. The real reason you posted is because you felt the need to tear someone down in a transparent attempt to build yourself up. Your attempt worked in reverse by the way. Next time, just don't post.
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Humility........is lost on many.
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Golfer,
Tupac posts those videos because he is happy and proud of what he has done. As you said on the previous page you have 4500 hours so no one expects you to be entertained or impressed by that. And let's be realistic, you will probably never be entertained or impressed by what he's done because you are a good 10 years ahead of him and he is not going to pass you. Now those videos don't only make him happy, there are people here who do watch them and do enjoy it, also you have people that watch his videos in order to learn something. I personally don't watch his videos because I am too bored to watch a videos of someone fly up high in straight lines, but that's just me.
Your right his experience is rather limited and there are things that he does not know. There are only two ways for him to learn those things, one is keep flying and learn it by experience and the other is read stories that have been written by people such as yourself. Either way it's best for him to stay motivated and enjoy what he does, if he wont then he'll be learning a lot slower and will be a much more dangerous pilot.
I am sure that by now he had a good share of his close calls so he realizes that it's not exactly safe.
I think the best thing for us to do if we want to have any impact on his flying or his posts is to tell him stuff that would improve his flying, tell him where to get more useful information, or point out something that he should spend more time practicing.
Looking at the stuff he posted so far I think he's doing pretty good. He's been flying a lot (I don't know too many people who had/have 300 hours when they were 17), he's already got his IFR rating, he's flown in a variety of different terrains, and he's flown a good amount of different aircraft. So looking at all that I think he has a lot more flying experience that most people at the age of 17.
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Mach,
I've never once questioned the fact he's doing very good and certainly never used his age as a disclaimer. He's not doing well for a 17 year old, he's doing well by anyone's standard. I'd go back and find it if I weren't on my phone but self videoing with a loose camcorder on a first solo while humming something from Family Guy was my first impression. And my comment was something to the effect of "complacency on a first solo. What can go wrong?". And more than a few times since I've had the same song. That's where I take issue, not with sharing what he's proud of.
Boiler,
You'll also find I'm not at all "tearing him down" or discouraging him from doing a darn thing. I'm giving my personal (lightly filtered) opinion on his pattern of behavior not just a single action. Like it or not being in his shoes is something I'm familiar with and have a pretty good perspective on what it's like to be him. This includes mistakes I made I see him on the road to doing and they may not have a thing to do with stick and rudder flying ability. I'm not concerned about his ability to fly his airplane.
I'm not out to prove anything and I doubt after 18 years of Air Warrior/Aces High community interaction I'm going to change someone's opinion of whatever "Golfer" is. I think he's making some mistakes and could use a refreshed perspective on a few things. He'll get it one way or another, believe it or not I'm trying to help him avoid the unpleasant way. Like I said, I see a lot of myself I'm him and imagine this is how my parents felt trying to talk to a younger me. I see why my dads hair went gray...
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Golfer, that camera in the airplane on my first solo I didnt even know it was there until after the flight. My instructor clipped it to the back of the sun visor.
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Or front of the sun visor. Whatever way you want to look at it.
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With over 30 years in aviation, I have seen many self-appointed authorities come and go. They get an instrument ticket, a pair of Ray Bans and they are Gods, all knowing all seeing experts on all things with wings. Recognize that beyond the fact that I have had to point out many things about aviation that were wrong, you are still in the learning process.
Two guys on this board come to mind as knowing their stuff, that is Eagl and Columbo. There are probably a few others, and no slight intended to them. You are not yet one of them. Sorry.
History with Dago, he's trolling and I'm not biting.
The rest I'll attribute to holiday cheer. I've had a few conversations with Tupac over the last few weeks and it's best I check out. Maybe it's generational. Maybe it's because I see some of the things if go back and change about myself when I was one of those teenage wonder kids. A kid who doesn't see the forest through the trees saying something snarky like that just rubbed me the wrong way.
Maybe its perspective. I get a chance to see some real good ones in high school program earning them college credit and upon completion their Airframe certificate. They work hard, come from nothing and get something in return. Tupac has gone from someone worth rooting to a kid seeking attention. It's been a little while in the making and maybe it just was one face palm too many.
I'm sure he's quite capable but after a few of the conversations off the board we've had I guess it's time to let him learn for himself. Been there, didn't listen, done that.
Gonna get a snickers bar and see if that helps. Hey look...a tree
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Two guys on this board come to mind as knowing their stuff, that is Eagl and Columbo. There are probably a few others, and no slight intended to them. You are not yet one of them. Sorry.
Never said I knew anything, much less everything.
In fact, just the opposite. So when you have original material that goes beyond whatever personal chip is on your shoulder for the last 6 or so years, let me know.
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Tupac posts those videos because he is happy and proud of what he has done.
I'm going to go ahead and toss in my thoughts. Golfer don't take this as directed towards you because it ain't sir.
I've dealt with a lot of young people over the years. I've posted about my 'kids' more than once because my house has been for the last couple of years the defacto hangout for the local teens and 20 somethings. I've 'lost' some who had all the intelligence in the world but when you suggested that they actually 'work' they ran from it like the plague. I've also had several that managed to stay on the right path and they're becoming contributing members of society. I like to think I helped them out but don't take credit for anything they've accomplished.
We've got a lot of young men on this board and in this game that are motivated, intelligent, and don't shrink at the thought of picking up a tool instead of a game controller that can and do benefit from the collective wisdom of guys that have been there and done that. To be honest I learn a TON of stuff from members on this board both young and old even though I usually have some tongue in cheek wisecrack or some self deprecating humor to share.
Reading information from real people who actually have done the things they are talking about has broadened me over the years and I think this board and this game is a ridiculously rich resource of real information. Thank the heavens that there are young people here not only learning about real history from people who study it but practical knowledge as well.
When an experienced pilot like Golfer, Eagl, etc.., posts something I read it with interest and fascination. Cap, Shuffler, etc, post about cars and I'm eating what they say up. Skuzzy, Gyrene, TD, etc, talk about computers and they make me sound like a freaking genius and have saved me and the company I work for literally thousands of dollars that we might have spent on computer support. Then there's people like Grizz and Sunbat who are in fields related to mine who I respect and admire. I even read the hunting and fishing posts not because I have any interest in those pursuits but reading things from people with real world experience and learning things is one of my singular joys in life.
I'm seriously proud of Tupac and what he's doing and where he's going with his life. I've also seen him not only get but absorb a lot of what I can only think is good advice from advanced real life pilots that frequent this place. He's not only a fine example of what can be right with the world (and Tup you better be hitting the knees nightly and thanking the heavens for what I perceive are really good parents that I'd like to meet someday) but also an example of what a young man can accomplish when he sets his mind to something and truly loves what he is doing. Frankly I think he's destined for greatness not only because he works hard, obviously loves what he is doing, but has enough of a sense of humor about himself that he doesn't mind being a bit goofy from time to time.
I think we could use a few more people like him in the world and I like to think that the young men around us can remind some of us older types that life is meant to be enjoyed as well as productive.
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Well said Dicho :salute :cheers:
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Never said I knew anything, much less everything.
In fact, just the opposite. So when you have original material that goes beyond whatever personal chip is on your shoulder for the last 6 or so years, let me know.
No chip really, just don't like seeing wrong information put out there, and I really do hate to say it, but you have done it more than once.
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No chip really, just don't like seeing wrong information put out there, and I really do hate to say it, but you have done it more than once.
And I'll do it again. Sort of the nature of imperfection.
(http://www.enjoytherandom.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/05/2640789668_48a2a84ddf.jpg)
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I've got a little over 600 hours in 4-engine WWII bombers -- and I'm a bit envious of Tupac. I wish I would have had the start in aviation that he has had. I think he is doing quite well and seems to be progressing in the right direction as far as the type training/type of flying he is getting/doing.
Just before one of my first lessons I watched a guy walk into a spinning propellor.
As a fire-fighter I laid in an avgas filled ditch for about 20 minutes while helping to extract the mangled body of a friend after he crashed his Starduster on takeoff.
Another young, cocky, skilled guy I knew died when he hit a moutain side in weather.
I share some of the worry that Golfer has expressed. I have seen guys, not just in aviation, that were just a bit too cocky -- just didn't seem to take things quite serious enough -- and ended up getting hurt or killed.
Tupac, I'm not saying I think you're doomed to disaster. I think you'll go far -- but sometimes I wonder if you really, truly take "it" serious enough. It's probably just the awkwardness of trying to communicate with the written word. Remember, I have more 4-engine WWII bomber time than you have total time yet I envy where you are at in your aviation career.
Now go do a couple no-gyro back course approaches.
<S>
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Speaking of youth and aviation...
One reason why the USAF generally bans cameras in the cockpit is that even with the best intentions, pilot judgement is often affected by the camera. The mere presence of the camera affects the decision making process, whether it is to show off, to avoid looking stupid, or to simply document the flight. This is even more so with young pilots.
AETC outright bans cameras in the cockpit without MAJCOM DO approval (2-star general). Air Combat Command delegates this, but cameras can be restricted at any level of the chain of command which halts the ability for lower level commanders to authorize camera use.
If there is any part of Tupac's flying habits that slightly concerns me, it is the use of cameras and documenting/showing flights. it has nothing to do with his flying skills, and everything to do with the well documented fact that camera use affects the decision making process. Mere presence of the camera is an influence on the entire flight. This may have some positive impact as a pilot on camera may attempt to do everything skillfully and by the book, but even then sometimes the desire to make things go right can actually lead to ignoring signs that things are in fact NOT going right. For example, when trying to film a perfect landing, a pilot may press forward with a badly flown pattern in an effort to save it, rather than documenting an aborted landing. The desire to fly perfectly in front of the camera would lead directly to a very poor decision to continue a bad pattern, regardless of intent.
Again, this isn't just my opinion, it's documented in many many mishap reports. I strongly recommend against "young" pilots filming their flights unless they have an experienced observer in the plane who can call knock-it-off or even just turn off the camera when things get screwy. But I don't have a cut-off line on when it might be ok for a pilot to start filming, simply because it's impossible to judge when a pilot has developed the judgement to do the right thing regardless of outside influences. I've seen enough 1000 hr fighter pilots kill themselves through bad decisions that it's impossible to tell who will or will not be influenced enough to get themselves killed. So although I personally chafe at the restrictions I faced regarding cameras in the cockpit, on reflection it's hard to disagree with both the rules and the reasoning behind the rules.
So that bugs me a bit when I see Tupac or any other young pilot posting videos of their aerial adventures. They're often harmless but history has shown the mere presence of a camera in the plane can have a huge negative impact on pilot decision making.
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good one eagl. Hadn't thought about that. Thanks :aok
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Here's $.02 worth from a guy that has been in aviation for over 30 years, both flying and fixing.
Eagl is spot on about cameras in the cockpit. Have seen it more times than I can count, and not just self mounted cameras put there by the pilot to film his adventure, but cameras taken and used by friends to document the awesome ride. It can change the decision making process, as Eagl has said, and many times in a very negative way.
This may come as a surprise to most who do not fly here, and not a surprise to those who do. I agree with just about everything Golfer has posted.
Tupac is in a time in his flying career where he is more at risk than when he was a student pilot. He is learning new things...rapidly and having great successes at flying. The problem is, and it is something we all have gone through, is he sees these successes as great flying ability. For example, crosswind landings. I am sure if Tupac went back and reviewed everything he did on those landings right now, he would find nothing wrong with them. Give him a few hundred more hours and he may wonder why the hell he did it that way.
I look back at some of the flying and decisions I made years ago and sometimes wonder how it is that I am still here. Stuff I would never even attempt now were commonplace at 300 hours. Hell even stuff I did at 1500 hours are a little sketchy to me know. The thing is, I got away with it over and over and therefor saw nothing wrong with what I was doing. I was lucky.
Golfer is trying to enlighten Tupac and warn him of the dangers of complacency and over confidence. Maybe he's using a bigger stick than he needs, but I fully understand Golfers concern and I support his effort, it is one of concern.
Most new pilots hit that "indestructible" phase from around 500 hours to 1500 or so. Tupac, who is obviously a talented and driven young pilot seems to have hit that benchmark a bit early from my perspective. Not surprising given his drive to succeed. It really is a time for reflection and maybe a slower pace.
Tupac, I hope you take all this for what it is worth. From what I can see it is all goodstuff. You know if you were sitting at the local watering hole with a few of us old farts you would be getting the same speech interlaced with all the dumb things we did early on. The fact that we survived some of our dumber moments is most assuredly luck or some kind of divine intervention. Many do not.
Flying isn't about great hands and feet, it's about knowing how, when, and more specifically why you employ them. You can teach a chimpanzee to fly, you can't teach him to survive it though. Fly with your noodle, don't let pride and bravado operate the controls.
Lastly, flight manuals. Don't believe everything they tell you in regards to performance. If the FM says you can land in a 25kt crosswind at a certain weight I am sure you could under perfect conditions on a standard day. How often do you see that?
Just because the FM says the plane is capable of something doesn't make it good idea.
At any rate Tupac, glad you are on your way. Try to take some of this in, it's all good stuff. We really are on your side:)
cheers, and fly safe!
RTR
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I don't think anyone here means any harm. Folks with more experience are just trying to help the younger folks to keep a straight head. Sometimes it may come out a bit harsh but if it helps to curtail the loss of one life.... it's worth it.
If you ever just mark off an experienced persons thoughts you only hurt yourself.
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none of you knows nothin bout bein safe an humble in a plane, til you've constructed a 2 foot tower from raw noodle and reeses cups in a aircraft safety course. :cheers:
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none of you knows nothin bout bein safe an humble in a plane, til you've constructed a 2 foot tower from raw noodle and reeses cups in a aircraft safety course. :cheers:
Really? None of us? :headscratch: