Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: MK-84 on January 02, 2012, 04:45:39 AM
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Are these really as ineffective as they are in AH? I certainly do not know, but wow they seem useless, and that doesn't make a whole lot of sense.
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Polemic answer: Yes, they were. Why do you think fighter planes were being quickly upgunned during the war?
Now 'ineffective' is a somewhat vague term. The British shot down hundreds of fighters & bombers in the BoB with nothing but BB's, but still were aware of the rather urgent need to go to bigger calibers. And that's reflected in AH quite well: in EW fights the 8x MG gun batteries are sufficient in most situations, but as the targets get more durable and master, you are wishing for cannons more and more.
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Polemic answer: Yes, they were. Why do you think fighter planes were being quickly upgunned during the war?
I know many were upgunned to deal with armor plate, and larger bombers, and faster aircraft...but I was not looking for the "obvious, MK84's a tard reply"
Maybe I didnt phrase it how I meant. I can't explain it really, but it seems so hard for say a a6m2 (without cannon) to take out a P47 to the point of it being so silly its...well silly). As in he's stalling on the deck helpless and you're absolutely unloading with so little effect it takes almost your entire clip to take him down.
What I meant was, is that realistic? I always thought that usually the "shot margin" was very small, and as planes got faster, bigger better armored, it required more weight thrown at the target. please look at what I'm wondering, not how I say it.
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What I meant was, is that realistic?
Yes. A P-47 is a huge, armored target with a very strong airframe. You have to kill the pilot, set it ablaze or destroy a criticial component (like a wing spar). And that's indeed not easy with only two light machine guns. You need a lot of well placed hits on the spar for example. Or the proverbial lucky "headshot" hitting without meeting armor first.
Again, if it hadn't been that way, nobody would have gone to heavy MG and cannons that quick.
And like in RL, it still can be done in AH, but you are better to be a good pilot & shooter.
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makes total sense
But something is missing, I just dont know what the right question is :confused:
I guess my best (not very good) example is the Ki43. It does not seem possible at all that in AH it could get anything other than a lucky kill, even VS reasonably contempory aircraft) But it did. I just have trouble imagining it dumping half its ords into an enemy fighter for it to go down, out of sheer volume, it may not damage the airframe so much, but I would think it would hit something that would cause the enemy to go down.
I really dont know, but if I imagine myself flying a Ki43 in AH...I will get slightly more kills than a val...and that does not make sense
edit: Ki43's are higher caliber... forgot that :/ then again...c202?
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In some way, RL kills are way more often 'lucky kills" than in here. The combat environment is totally different in AH, our view easily being somewhat distorted my the huge amount of kills made, both absolutely as well as per time/sortie.
Also, a slow rifle caliber plane in AH doesn't only face the challenge to kill it's opponents - one main reason it's less effective is that it competes with cannon armed friendlies for that kill. Before you can saddle up and kill the enemy, another player on the same team would have. You simply get your 12 cleared way too often ;)
It would be totally different in a scenario / fso setup, in which for example Ki-43 would face Wildcats or early Hurricanes / Spitfires.
Once you saddle up, .303's and comparable guns can be deadly. Hurricane I will shred any plane at D200 if you get a proper gun solution (I have almost 800 kills in LW arena in it, including B-17s), and even a D3A with only 2 MG will kill (I have shot down Il-2's with it).
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Just another bit to show the differences.
Approximate energy at muzzle for different projectiles:
rifle caliber MG: ~3,000J
heavy MG (M2): ~18,000J
20mm cannon (Hispano): ~ 48,000J (+ chemical energy of the explosive filler which does not decrease over distance)
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Once you saddle up, .303's and comparable guns can be deadly. Hurricane I will shred any plane at D200 if you get a proper gun solution (I have almost 800 kills in LW arena in it, including B-17s), and even a D3A with only 2 MG will kill (I have shot down Il-2's with it).
Very true. If you can get them to turn with you then it will take a solid 2-3 secs of hits on the same spot to cause critical damage.
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its great discipline flying a BB armed fighter - no long range shots, no snapshots, you have to saddle up and you have to keep pouring those rounds into the same spot. after a while you realise that you are targetting a specific part of the plane rather than just chucking cannon rounds at it knowing that something will fall off eventually. and it does wonders for your gunnery when you switch back to a cannon bird :aok
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The slower the aircraft the more effective the smaller caliber of weapons are. The more "time on target" available the easier it is to be effective with the smaller calibers. The "Oscar", Brewster Buffalo, P40B/C, Spitfires, Hurricanes, and a whole host of other pre-war and early war aircraft did just fine with .30 calibers.
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its great discipline flying a BB armed fighter - no long range shots, no snapshots, you have to saddle up and you have to keep pouring those rounds into the same spot.
Quite often people don't realize that a .30 caliber gun just can't reach out to 300+ yards range and still be useful. Set your convergence to 175-200 yards, get behind your opponent (takes more than a few hits to bring one down, so crossing shots just don't work) and wait until you're 200 yards or less away. At those ranges the .30s really can chew up virtually any plane. Macchi 202 is the same, even though the cowl guns are 12.7s. The Italian version of the .50 fired a much lighter bullet, so you're still pretty well limited to 200-yard shots or less.
Keep in mind that these "short" ranges are faithful to actual WWII practice. AH's 600 yard shooting was not particularly effective in real life.
- oldman
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Maybe I didnt phrase it how I meant. I can't explain it really, but it seems so hard for say a a6m2 (without cannon) to take out a P47 to the point of it being so silly its...well silly). As in he's stalling on the deck helpless and you're absolutely unloading with so little effect it takes almost your entire clip to take him down.
I'm with you...sort of. On the surface, it does seem silly. But if you've ever stood next to something like a B-17 or P-47 (I have) then you begin to understand why it was so difficult to bring them down. They're ENORMOUS aircraft.
For a very descriptive, first hand account of just how difficult a P-47 could be to shoot down, find a copy of Thunderbolt! by Robert Johnson. Here's a synopsis of the account:
"After pulling out of an uncontrolled spin and with the fire amazingly going out on its own, Johnson headed for the English Channel, but was intercepted by a single Fw 190. Unable to fight back, he maneuvered while under a series of attacks, and although sustaining further heavy damage from both 7.92mm and 20mm rounds, managed to survive until the German ran out of ammunition, who, after saluting him by rocking his wings, turned back. His opponent has never been identified, but Johnson could have been one of three victories claimed that day by the commander of III/JG 2, Oberst Egon Mayer.[2] [N 1]After landing, Johnson tried to count the bullet holes in his airplane, but when he passed 200, including 21, 20 mm cannon shell impacts, without even moving around the aircraft, he gave up.
Somewhere I have VHS tape of a P-47 pilot describing landing his heavily damaged bird. Upon contact with the runway, the tail section broke off the fuselage and was drug down the runway by the control cables until the plane came to a stop.
230G
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I'm with you...sort of. On the surface, it does seem silly. But if you've ever stood next to something like a B-17 or P-47 (I have) then you begin to understand why it was so difficult to bring them down.
For a very descriptive, first hand account of just how difficult a P-47 could be to shoot down, find a copy of Thundebolt! by Robert Johnson. Here's a synopsis of the account:
"After pulling out of an uncontrolled spin and with the fire amazingly going out on its own, Johnson headed for the English Channel, but was intercepted by a single Fw 190. Unable to fight back, he maneuvered while under a series of attacks, and although sustaining further heavy damage from both 7.92mm and 20mm rounds, managed to survive until the German ran out of ammunition, who, after saluting him by rocking his wings, turned back. His opponent has never been identified, but Johnson could have been one of three victories claimed that day by the commander of III/JG 2, Oberst Egon Mayer.[2] [N 1]After landing, Johnson tried to count the bullet holes in his airplane, but when he passed 200, including 21, 20 mm cannon shell impacts, without even moving around the aircraft, he gave up.
Somewhere I have VHS tape of a P-47 pilot describing landing his heavily damaged bird. Upon contact with the runway, the tail section broke off the fuselage and was drug down the runway by the control cables until the plane came to a stop.
230G
Hear Hear! The jug is under modeled for it's ability to sustain damage in AH! The sorrowful penalty to climb rate for all that heavy duty airplane is not though. Still a beast! :rock
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Quite often people don't realize that a .30 caliber gun just can't reach out to 300+ yards range and still be useful. Set your convergence to 175-200 yards, get behind your opponent (takes more than a few hits to bring one down, so crossing shots just don't work) and wait until you're 200 yards or less away. At those ranges the .30s really can chew up virtually any plane. Macchi 202 is the same, even though the cowl guns are 12.7s. The Italian version of the .50 fired a much lighter bullet, so you're still pretty well limited to 200-yard shots or less.
Keep in mind that these "short" ranges are faithful to actual WWII practice. AH's 600 yard shooting was not particularly effective in real life.
- oldman
You can set 303s to 250-300 yards out, I wouldn't go much beyond 325 unless you have incredible aim. I had no problem dropping a few planes with C202s and Hurri 1s.
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Hear Hear! The jug is under modeled for it's ability to sustain damage in AH! The sorrowful penalty to climb rate for all that heavy duty airplane is not though. Still a beast! :rock
One extreme example is not a useful basis on which to model durability.
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I've shot down an Il-2 with an SdKfz 251. Granted he was being dumb, but thats not the point. Rather than aiming at the plane as a whole, you need to aim at specific parts. I aimed at the cocpit and tried to get a big long burst in, and what do you know? He was blacking out after 3 passes, and I killed the pilot on 5th.
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Quite often people don't realize that a .30 caliber gun just can't reach out to 300+ yards range and still be useful.
Well, maybe in this game. But in reality: Awhile back, I built and set up a target here at the house at which I could shoot my competition rifles for practice. I made it out of 1/4" diamond plate and set it up at 600 yds (That's almost 3/8 of a mile). I first fired at it with my Swiss K-31 rifle and Swiss GP-11 military surplus ammunition. Eight of the first eleven bullets completely PENETRATED the steel! Ballistics of this cartridge are very similar to those of our beloved 30-06 with which our early WW2 planes are armed. FWIW.
230G
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A halfway decent example of why the 303s got up gunned to 20mm. A He-111 that returned to base after a trip to England. Imagine if those hits had been 50 cal, or 20mm. That bird isn't there.
If I can find better examples I'll post em, but you get the idea
(http://i152.photobucket.com/albums/s199/guppy35/bbs.jpg)
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Wonder why that He-111 has a British roundel on the fuselage? Or did I see that wrong?
230G
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You can set 303s to 250-300 yards out, I wouldn't go much beyond 325 unless you have incredible aim. I had no problem dropping a few planes with C202s and Hurri 1s.
I've dropped a few planes with 202s and Hurri Is as well. While it's possible to get kills at 300 yards, it isn't a wise way to fly or plan with those planes, and the longer convergence setting hurts you at the preferred ranges.
- oldman
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A halfway decent example of why the 303s got up gunned to 20mm. A He-111 that returned to base after a trip to England. Imagine if those hits had been 50 cal, or 20mm. That bird isn't there.
If I can find better examples I'll post em, but you get the idea
(http://i152.photobucket.com/albums/s199/guppy35/bbs.jpg)
That is probably the sideways "figure 8" seen on many German planes. We have a 109 skin with it, I believe.
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I've dropped a few planes with 202s and Hurri Is as well. While it's possible to get kills at 300 yards, it isn't a wise way to fly or plan with those planes, and the longer convergence setting hurts you at the preferred ranges.
- oldman
300 Yards is about right, for safety I would say 250 if your aim isn't all to good.
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Personally speaking, I love upping a Spit V just to buzz about killing enemy aircraft with the .303's after expending the 120 20mm. Tons and tons of fun. There's not a whole lot better when you can bait down at 51D, get him in your fight, and just shred him with .303's. I had one such fight where it last near about 5 min just because I was on my last 250-300 rds of .303 and was making sure every shot counted... and they did :rock
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Personally speaking, I love upping a Spit V just to buzz about killing enemy aircraft with the .303's after expending the 120 20mm. Tons and tons of fun. There's not a whole lot better when you can bait down at 51D, get him in your fight, and just shred him with .303's. I had one such fight where it last near about 5 min just because I was on my last 250-300 rds of .303 and was making sure every shot counted... and they did :rock
I never cared much for the early Spit/Hurri - but after an early war FSO event I will say its tough getting kills in these early war birds, however its the strategy involved in it - you can'y for example make a snapshot and expect to take a wing off. However straddling behind someone with 8x303s will do quite a bit of damage, just remember that ammo counter goes down in a hurry.
I generally make a good 2 second burst, and watch where the hits land, think I perfected this in the P-38J previous tour, which by far has one of the most deadliest gun packages available. I am still keen towards the Early War birds though, sadly the 38G doesn't impress me because of the bulletproof glass which is a total pain in the butt trying to aim with it.
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Don't forget that it's immensely fun to let your opponents suffer a "death by thousand cuts". :devil
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There is a well-known story about Robert S. Johnson of the 56th FG that illustrates this. In the Summer of 1943 he flew a P-47 that was riddled with some 20mm cannon and literally hundreds of 7mm rounds, yet he still made it back to England. Check out Johnson's book, "Thunderbolt!"
I know many were upgunned to deal with armor plate, and larger bombers, and faster aircraft...but I was not looking for the "obvious, MK84's a tard reply"
Maybe I didnt phrase it how I meant. I can't explain it really, but it seems so hard for say a a6m2 (without cannon) to take out a P47 to the point of it being so silly its...well silly). As in he's stalling on the deck helpless and you're absolutely unloading with so little effect it takes almost your entire clip to take him down.
What I meant was, is that realistic? I always thought that usually the "shot margin" was very small, and as planes got faster, bigger better armored, it required more weight thrown at the target. please look at what I'm wondering, not how I say it.
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The slower the aircraft the more effective the smaller caliber of weapons are. The more "time on target" available the easier it is to be effective with the smaller calibers. The "Oscar", Brewster Buffalo, P40B/C, Spitfires, Hurricanes, and a whole host of other pre-war and early war aircraft did just fine with .30 calibers.
Our Brewster has 4x.50cal or 3x.50cal + 1x.30cal, so its firepower is more appropriately compared to the FM-1 (F4F-4 with four gun package) FM-2 and P-51B.
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Our Brewster has 4x.50cal or 3x.50cal + 1x.30cal, so its firepower is more appropriately compared to the FM-1 (F4F-4 with four gun package) FM-2 and P-51B.
I'm well aware of what model the AH version of the Buffalo has. It is not representative to what was present in the pre-war or early war settings, at least in the PTO. Depending on which variant in question, it appears there were dual .30 cals, or quad .30 cals, or 2/.30's and 2/.50's, etc. etc. The comparison of the EW Brewsters is more for speed and maneuverability purposes, really. But in firepower, they are still in the same class.
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I've shot down an Il-2 with an SdKfz 251. Granted he was being dumb, but thats not the point. Rather than aiming at the plane as a whole, you need to aim at specific parts. I aimed at the cocpit and tried to get a big long burst in, and what do you know? He was blacking out after 3 passes, and I killed the pilot on 5th.
Did the same recently with the coax on a Panzer IV. He came in dumb, I opened up at D1000, and gave him a face full of coax BBs right in the prop spinner.
IL2 go boom.
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In real life pilots would try to rtb after taking critical damage like a fuel or oil hit or losing a control surface; rifle caliber rounds were more than capable of causing this kind of damage. In AH people will stay in a fight until they are blown from the sky (especially in the MAs); which rifle caliber rounds are not as capable of doing as HMG rounds or canon rounds. That is the simple difference that most players seem to not realize. An under rated ride in AH doesn't always translate into an under rated ride during its time in WWII.
Planes armed with rifle caliber guns are included in AH not because they are the best choice when flying in the LWMA, but because they are historically significant and see good use in arenas other than the LWMA.