Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Penguin on January 14, 2012, 04:31:44 PM
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See Rules #4, #14
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This brings me to my point, how can we teach the fact of history being a series of disastrous snafus and brutal devastation punctuated by brief shining moments of progress without scaring the little kids too much?
-Penguin
You can't. That's the real world and at some point those "little kids" must face it.
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Have fun learning about the evil white man :rolleyes:
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You can't. That's the real world and at some point those "little kids" must face it.
Hmm, perhaps what I proposed is a bit heavy, but even without that, I think there is a way to teach man's descent from the trees (Paleolithic) , his domestication of animals (Neolithic), and the development of thought throughout the ages (across the world, of course). I think a history of math and philosophy would be a good start, and eliminating the rather one-sided Revolution reenactments would help to give kids the global perspective they are well capable of taking. A good example of such a global perspective would be teaching how China became the most advanced civilisation of the 15th century, and how the Gupta's and Arabs advanved mathematics significantly.
Have fun learning about the evil white man :rolleyes:
Did I say that white people were evil? :headscratch:
-Penguin
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You can't. That's the real world and at some point those "little kids" must face it.
^^^ This.
Also, at some point I believe it becomes the responsibility of the Parent/Guardian to inform the children about the ways of the world. This includes not only the goodness worldwide, but also the evil and stupidity that humans are capable of.
My Mother never wanted me to view certain graphic images or be allowed into discussions of certain topics at a young age due to the fact that she wished to shield me from violence.
Fortunately, my Father had no such reservations. I learned early what war and hatred were all about. I think this allowed me to view such topics with far more realism than many of my classmates. By the time we learned about these things in class I was already informed and was able to grasp the concepts with a more mature understanding.
It didn't save me from being kicked out of History class a time or two :lol but that had more to do with my weakness for the fairer sex, and contempt for authority.
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Hmm, perhaps what I proposed is a bit heavy, but even without that, I think there is a way to teach man's descent from the trees (Paleolithic) , his domestication of animals (Neolithic), and the development of thought throughout the ages (across the world, of course). I think a history of math and philosophy would be a good start, and eliminating the rather one-sided Revolution reenactments would help to give kids the global perspective they are well capable of taking. A good example of such a global perspective would be teaching how China became the most advanced civilisation of the 15th century, and how the Gupta's and Arabs advanved mathematics significantly.
Teaching people of the major mistakes in history is a lot more important so they would not happen again. When teaching history you can't just exclude the unpleasant stuff.
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you're full of crap. every sentence you typed was dribbling uninformed babble and your question is silly.
the shining moments of this country as you describe them, far outway the mistakes a brand new country starting off will make on the way to becoming a great nation. lighten up on our 300 and some year old country will ya!? Far older, more well established nations took part in the slave trade as well. Spain, Italy, Portugal....as well as several warring African countries or tribes.
Everyone knows slavery is wrong in these times, but those were completely different times back then and the founders of this country did what they had to do, to prosper in the worlds trade market. Sad but true.
Every country makes mistakes. It's how they bounce back from them that make nations great. Be proud of your country.
The Americas pervaded genocide, conquest and exploitation up until the 1840s? Is that what you said? That's untrue on every level.
tell the kids the truth. we ain't half bad compared to the other 95% out there. teach my children that instead of the crap you're being taught. Comparing slavery to the Holocaust is comparing apples to oranges .
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... fact of history being a series of disastrous snafus and brutal devastation punctuated by brief shining moments of progress without scaring the little kids too much?
-Penguin
I think you're being overly pessimistic here. Every day all across the globe billions of good people wake up, and go about there business in an honest manner, helping others and making positive contributions to society. Hardly any of these people will kill somebody, or rob somebody, or participate in genocide, or plot some evil scheme in their heart. These people and their everyday actions, which are the vast majority never make it into the history books.
The history books are filled with the minority, the very fact something is in a history book is because they are events or people which fall outside of the norm. The history books are never going to talk about the average everyday Joe or Jose or Mohamed, of which at least 95% are decent good people who live their whole life in a positive manner and therefore die in general anonymity.
Out of all the people you've met in your lifetime what percentage of them do you suppose are murderers, or thieves or scam artists, vs how many are honest, good people. Sure we may disagree on politics or religion, but 90% of the world strives to follow same basic code of morality. It's the other 10% that usually makes the history books.
If you only read history, only look at those great and terrible events, then you could be forgiven for thinking the world is a terrible cesspool of a place. But for those that actually go out and life in and experience the world, it is the billions of little everyday things which taken together make up the real picture.
Of course we need to teach kids history, and never sugar-coat it. But kids should also learn in the home and everyday life the other side of the story, that is how to live positively, and most do.
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I think you're being overly pessimistic here. Every day all across the globe billions of good people wake up, and go about there business in an honest manner, helping others and making positive contributions to society. Hardly any of these people will kill somebody, or rob somebody, or participate in genocide, or plot some evil scheme in their heart. These people and their everyday actions, which are the vast majority never make it into the history books.
The history books are filled with the minority, the very fact something is in a history book is because they are events or people which fall outside of the norm. The history books are never going to talk about the average everyday Joe or Jose or Mohamed, of which at least 95% are decent good people who live their whole life in a positive manner and therefore die in general anonymity.
Out of all the people you've met in your lifetime what percentage of them do you suppose are murderers, or thieves or scam artists, vs how many are honest, good people. Sure we may disagree on politics or religion, but 90% of the world strives to follow same basic code of morality. It's the other 10% that usually makes the history books.
If you only read history, only look at those great and terrible events, then you could be forgiven for thinking the world is a terrible cesspool of a place. But for those that actually go out and life in and experience the world, it is the billions of little everyday things which taken together make up the real picture.
Of course we need to teach kids history, and never sugar-coat it. But kids should also learn in the home and everyday life the other side of the story, that is how to live positively, and most do.
I agree with you, and that's why I said history, as opposed to the world at large. Things are looking better every day as women are liberated from their houses and modern medicine saves millions from disease. On average, I suspect about 0.01 percent of my town has a record of felonies or violent crime, though (we had a pedophile priest and a rapist clown). My point is that many important events (Clovis point, the discovery of 0, and the development of the scientific method) good and bad alike, never get told, in favor of Breed's hill reenacments and grueling five-day reviews of Henry Hudson's travels. However, positive thinking has its place as well, and fits nicely with a history of science.
-Penguin
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Peng
read, read, read, read, read, then read some more. Those that do not learn from history are doomed to repeat it and all :)
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Hmm, perhaps what I proposed is a bit heavy, but even without that, I think there is a way to teach man's descent from the trees (Paleolithic) , his domestication of animals (Neolithic), and the development of thought throughout the ages (across the world, of course). I think a history of math and philosophy would be a good start, and eliminating the rather one-sided Revolution reenactments would help to give kids the global perspective they are well capable of taking. A good example of such a global perspective would be teaching how China became the most advanced civilisation of the 15th century, and how the Gupta's and Arabs advanved mathematics significantly.
Did I say that white people were evil? :headscratch:
-Penguin
He didn't; it's just that so many people refuse/don't know about the white civilizations failures and lapses in humanity.
I think that one of the largest problems nowadays is that children/young people are babied and coddled so much that the truth is regarded as "bad." Whether it actually is or not is out of the question. I also realize that it depends much on where one lives. Also remember that history was written by the victors.
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The Americas pervaded genocide, conquest and exploitation up until the 1840s? Is that what you said? That's untrue on every level.
Err... its quite true. From the arrival of the british colonists to the foundation of the united states to the expansion to the west coast is a constant process of genocide (native populations), conquest (again, native populations) and exploitation (initially native populations until they were practically wiped out followed by the black slaves followed by the exploitation of the initial waves of immigrants up the late 1800's)
The genocide and conquest portions were aggressively pursued by the US gov. in those times until there was nothing more to conquer and no more native populations to exterminate to the point where they could not resist the theft of their land.
tell the kids the truth. we ain't half bad compared to the other 95% out there. teach my children that instead of the crap you're being taught. Comparing slavery to the Holocaust is comparing apples to oranges .
No, its not half as bad as others out there but it still does not make it right in any way or form. Slavery was worse than the holocaust if you're adding up dead, suffering and amount of people victimized by it...the only difference is it wasn't recorded on camera and slaves were at the time considered subhuman by everyone (in contrast to jewish people in ww2 being white and considered subhuman only by a few of the participant nations of WW2).
I agree with you that one should teach the kids the whole truth without sugar coating it. Teach them both the horrors and the great achievements...its the truth after all.
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Yes, just be careful on the details with the gory stuff, it can and will warp their minds if they see too much, too often.
-Penguin
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Yes, just be careful on the details with the gory stuff, it can and will warp their minds if they see too much, too often.
-Penguin
My Dad took me to see Platoon at the Tivoli Theatre in Downers Grove IL. when I was in middle school.
My Mom cried when she found out.
It was a formative experience in my life.
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Saving Pvt. Ryan when I was 9 or 10. Loved it.
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history is just like math. you wont want to teach calculus to a bunch of elementary kids because they wont be able to understand it same as for history. the history of history is so big that you cant spent your entire life learning about it and not finish. so you learn the condensed parts based on whoever writes the book.
I seriously think the history that we learn/teach is mostly based on a true story as it mostly reflects 1 or perhaps 2 points of view, but not the point of view of everybody involved. for example the civil war it shows the north against the south. but it is hard to find the point of view of the average people who didnt care either way as most people lived and died within a few miles of were they were born and things that happened 100s of miles away woudnt affect them.
semp
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history is just like math. you wont want to teach calculus to a bunch of elementary kids because they wont be able to understand it same as for history. the history of history is so big that you cant spent your entire life learning about it and not finish. so you learn the condensed parts based on whoever writes the book.
I seriously think the history that we learn/teach is mostly based on a true story as it mostly reflects 1 or perhaps 2 points of view, but not the point of view of everybody involved. for example the civil war it shows the north against the south. but it is hard to find the point of view of the average people who didnt care either way as most people lived and died within a few miles of were they were born and things that happened 100s of miles away woudnt affect them.
semp
Two things: I don't think it's as much whether they teach them the workings of it all, they just aren't even INTRODUCED to the concept of any of this stuff.
Second thing: Winners write the history books.
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Hmm, perhaps what I proposed is a bit heavy, but even without that, I think there is a way to teach man's descent from the trees (Paleolithic) , his domestication of animals (Neolithic), and the development of thought throughout the ages (across the world, of course). I think a history of math and philosophy would be a good start, and eliminating the rather one-sided Revolution reenactments would help to give kids the global perspective they are well capable of taking. A good example of such a global perspective would be teaching how China became the most advanced civilisation of the 15th century, and how the Gupta's and Arabs advanved mathematics significantly.
Did I say that white people were evil? :headscratch:
-Penguin
I'm sorry, maybe I was absent the day that genocide, slavery and conquest was performed by the US minorities. Free feel to
second guess and denigrate your forebears as we all know that history is just events of the past viewed through the lens of the
present. Which makes me grateful that political correctness is a recent invention.
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Indoctrination is the coolest. :aok
Accept what you're told and you'll be fine.
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See Rule #14
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You can't. That's the real world and at some point those "little kids" must face it.
Cue Catcher in the Rye.
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Have fun learning about the evil white man :rolleyes:
Yeap. Prepare to learn about crap that has NOTHING to do with history, but because it is politically correct you will hear about it. Oh, and yeah the white man and the US government will be the two most evil entities in the world. That is precisely part of the reason I chose not to continue on in teaching history in high school. I was so disgusted white student teaching I actually defied the teacher and principle and taught a number of things without a liberal slant on the topic and spoke of the facts and presented both sides of the story. The BS that is spewed in schools these days is horrid.
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Read "Guns, Germs, and Steel".
And history is written by the victor. Only recently have we actually tried to find out the missing voices (slaves, women, children)
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OK before too many of ya blow a gasket. A good rule of thumb in learning history is to have at least three sources independent of each other. Even then you will be taking in their biases and yours as you interpret the information. What I love about history is the more I learn, the more I find I need to learn beyond where I started.
The beauty of it is you never reach the end of the story as it constantly evolves. What was 'truth' 20 years ago, may not be 'truth' today because more information will have turned up.
If you stop with the first source it's your own damn fault as is taking any one source as "truth".
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Make sure you listen to someone who calls them self a moderate as well. It means they are always right.
Surely you can do better.
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Read "Guns, Germs, and Steel".
Yes, read this book.
If you have a fondness for anthropological fiction.
EDIT: I'm holding this book in my hand, and I still can't remember any redeeming details.
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A good rule of thumb in learning history is to have at least three sources independent of each other. Even then you will be taking in their biases and yours as you interpret the information.
Amen...
Written history is all about the biases and agendas. If you approach history with that understanding, do your utmost to separate your own biases, and seek out facts first... Facts first... Facts first... Facts first...
Then do your best to evaluate those facts, without your own biases coloring them...
Then you might begin to understand what has happened and why...
The moment you start to evaluate history with an opinion or agenda as the primary concern, you are simply contributing to the problem.
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Yes, read this book.
If you have a fondness for anthropological fiction.
EDIT: I'm holding this book in my hand, and I still can't remember any redeeming details.
I thought it was pretty spot on why some civilizations were more advanced than others. Paraphrasing here, but, "All humans have the same capability to invent and think, so how come we didn't see the rise of the Aztecs conquering Europe or the tribes of Africa conquering the Mediterranean? Because the Aztecs and tribes of Africa did not have the need for advance technology, they were mostly hunter gatherers that never settled due to their geography and climate, and without a food surplus/population growth, these civilizations did not grow in power/technology."
Necessity is the mother of inventions. Europeans, the Middle East and China were the major powers thousands of years ago because they all developed cities, empires and kingdoms. They learned to farm while the rest of the world were still hunting as nomads. Population growth means people could specialize in a skill (blacksmith, crafting, pottery, etc) and over time, develop new technologies. Nomads/hunter gatherers could not afford to specialize in a skill because everyone had to hunt or gather so the tribe could survive, and the tribes had to be small so they could move easily during season changes.
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I'm sorry, maybe I was absent the day that genocide, slavery and conquest was performed by the US minorities. Free feel to
second guess and denigrate your forebears as we all know that history is just events of the past viewed through the lens of the
present. Which makes me grateful that political correctness is a recent invention.
Genocide in America is a fact, just try to find a Native American nowadays- it's nearly impossible. Before we came along, there were at least 1,000,000 if not more. The founding fathers were every bit as human as we are today, and second guessing them is well within reason- the amendment system is there for a reason. Though they were right on some things, such as representative government, the Three-Fifths rule was not a good idea. As for political correctness, calling a Japanese person 'orangutan' or 'shrimpfarmer' is akin to calling a Vietnam veteran 'babykiller' and I'm sure that the latter idea disgusts you personally. That's all it is, there's no agenda, just people not wanting to be, as you said, denigerated.
History is the facts viewed through a lens, but adopting, as you have, a Whig lens, is akin to the pot calling the kettle black.
-Penguin
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I thought it was pretty spot on why some civilizations were more advanced than others. Paraphrasing here, but, "All humans have the same capability to invent and think, so how come we didn't see the rise of the Aztecs conquering Europe or the tribes of Africa conquering the Mediterranean? Because the Aztecs and tribes of Africa did not have the need for advance technology, they were mostly hunter gatherers that never settled due to their geography and climate, and without a food surplus/population growth, these civilizations did not grow in power/technology."
Necessity is the mother of inventions. Europeans, the Middle East and China were the major powers thousands of years ago because they all developed cities, empires and kingdoms. They learned to farm while the rest of the world were still hunting as nomads. Population growth means people could specialize in a skill (blacksmith, crafting, pottery, etc) and over time, develop new technologies. Nomads/hunter gatherers could not afford to specialize in a skill because everyone had to hunt or gather so the tribe could survive, and the tribes had to be small so they could move easily during season changes.
The missing link in your post, and the book for that matter, is why.
Of course Diamond made a feeble attempt at asking the question, but in his mind he already knew the answer.
These so called "hunter gatherers" ruled vast tract of lands and vast amounts of humans.
Their war making capabilities were second to none.
Why are some humans good hunters and other good farmers and others good businessmen and others good thieves and others good killers and others good citizens and others good liars and others good gardeners and others good manipulators and others good Samaritans and others good knobgobblers and others good skinflints and others good natured humans that treat their neighbors as their equals, and only hold contempt for their enemies?
I don't know, neither do you and neither does Jared Diamond
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Genocide in America is a fact, just try to find a Native American nowadays- it's nearly impossible.
:rofl :rofl :rofl
That gets 3 rofl's out of five.
Where I live, you can't shake a stick without hitting an Ojibway Indian.
Half of them drive shiny new vehicles, the other half hide in their provided holes and drink themselves to death.
Our intervention in their lives was the fault of the colonization of North America.
What they do with our money is up to them.
(I use the "us and them" language because that's how many people see it. I've been to places that Ojibway aren't welcome, and I've been to places that I wasn't welcome.
We had the access to industry. That's why America (as a whole) still floats.
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Luck have it I know more about world war 1 and 2 than my history teacher, he also said I can bring in a Wings of the Luftwaffe episode so i'm thinking the one on the Stuka or the 262 or the AR234
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Read "Guns, Germs, and Steel".
And history is written by the victor. Only recently have we actually tried to find out the missing voices (slaves, women, children)
Twice, I've said it :lol
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Tribes are doing right nicely around here, with the new casinos going up everywhere..
Haven't heard any of my American Indian Friends complaining about genocide lately..
Oh, I see, still in school huh?
Now it makes sense.. :rofl
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:rofl :rofl :rofl
That gets 3 rofl's out of five.
Where I live, you can't shake a stick without hitting an Ojibway Indian.
Half of them drive shiny new vehicles, the other half hide in their provided holes and drink themselves to death.
Our intervention in their lives was the fault of the colonization of North America.
What they do with our money is up to them.
(I use the "us and them" language because that's how many people see it. I've been to places that Ojibway aren't welcome, and I've been to places that I wasn't welcome.
We had the access to industry. That's why America (as a whole) still floats.
Though you may live near a reservation, I live near the Eastern Seaboard, where the Native Americans have been all but eradicated. Also, consider the large and stable governments that ruled over much of America until the various explorers, colonists, and conquistadores arrived. Also consider the fact that reservations are few and far between, which makes clear the destruction of large-scale Native American society.
Tribes are doing right nicely around here, with the new casinos going up everywhere..
Haven't heard any of my American Indian Friends complaining about genocide lately..
Oh, I see, still in school huh?
Now it makes sense.. :rofl
Yes, I'm a student, and I'm proud of it. I think you're oversimplifying things, though, we destroyed their country, their culture, and took their land. A casino or two helps, but shouldn't be taken as a sign that what we did we OK. I'm not arguing for any shifting of borders or power, but rather an end to the portrayal of the settlemdnt of the Americas as an exodus of thousands of peaceful settlers who were attacked by Native Americans for no good reason.
-Penguin
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See Rule #4
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Watch the Video "why we fight"
and "Zeitgeist"
That may help with your question