Aces High Bulletin Board

General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Penguin on January 18, 2012, 09:20:21 PM

Title: Hydrolysis
Post by: Penguin on January 18, 2012, 09:20:21 PM
Yes, it's amateur hour in the chemistry lab, and this bad experiment from the biology lab has gotten a hold of some nifty chemicals! :devil

Well, not quite.  I won't be doing this in the chemistry lab, and as many of you would think, I'm not the result of an experiment gone wrong.  However, I do have half a semester of chemistry under my belt, and I would like to perform hydrolysis.  As far as I can tell, it is a rather simple affair: Insert a DC electrode into NaCl dissolved into distilled water, and collect the bubbling gases.  However, the problem I don't know how to solve is separating the gases in order to obtain pure hydrogen.

If any of the eggheads in here would like to tell me how to perform this feat, I would be glad to make a video of me using the hydrogen to power a torch or perhaps a rocket.  If all else fails, I'll fill balloons with hydrogen, tape burning paper to them; and then let them fly into the sky in order to create Great Balls of Fire.

-Penguin
Title: Re: Hydrolysis
Post by: F22RaptorDude on January 18, 2012, 09:23:41 PM
Yes, it's amateur hour in the chemistry lab, and this bad experiment from the biology lab has gotten a hold of some nifty chemicals! :devil

Well, not quite.  I won't be doing this in the chemistry lab, and as many of you would think, I'm not the result of an experiment gone wrong.  However, I do have half a semester of chemistry under my belt, and I would like to perform hydrolysis.  As far as I can tell, it is a rather simple affair: Insert a DC electrode into NaCl dissolved into distilled water, and collect the bubbling gases.  However, the problem I don't know how to solve is separating the gases in order to obtain pure hydrogen.

If any of the eggheads in here would like to tell me how to perform this feat, I would be glad to make a video of me using the hydrogen to power a torch or perhaps a rocket.  If all else fails, I'll fill balloons with hydrogen, tape burning paper to them; and then let them fly into the sky in order to create Great Balls of Fire.

-Penguin
I recall there's a metal that can absorb Hydrogen, I saw this done in  RC car powered by a fuel cell kit, solar panels make water produce hydrogen and oxygen and the hydrogen is absorbed into the fuel cell which stores it as a solid until its needed for the chemical reaction, let me find that kit really quick
Title: Re: Hydrolysis
Post by: B-17 on January 18, 2012, 09:23:56 PM
HAHAHAHAHAHAHA

You are brave, Penguin. I know how to make the vinegar and the baking soda go "plouf!!!" but not this (^) of which you speak. I'm finishing up a French science course (Grade 10) exam is next week... Chemistry and Optics= poopoo.

Where does one GET Hydrogen, anyways?

Title: Re: Hydrolysis
Post by: Penguin on January 18, 2012, 09:26:05 PM
It's expensive, and the clerk would probably ask too many questions.

-Penguin
Title: Re: Hydrolysis
Post by: F22RaptorDude on January 18, 2012, 09:27:33 PM
Penguin here's a link to that rc car with the Fuel cell kit

http://www.horizonfuelcell.com/hobby_rc.htm (http://www.horizonfuelcell.com/hobby_rc.htm)
Title: Re: Hydrolysis
Post by: Penguin on January 18, 2012, 09:31:09 PM
Right, but liberating the hydrogen from those fuel-cells would be ludicrously dangerous.  I have no clue what that stuff even is, let alone how to break the bonds.  If nothing else, I'd need something to replace the hydrogen in the compound that the hydrostix form with the hydrogen.  I guess that potassium might work alright, but then where am I?  Now the bond with the potassium is even stronger.

-Penguin
Title: Re: Hydrolysis
Post by: Seanaldinho on January 18, 2012, 09:41:21 PM
The only way I could think of separating them safely would be to freeze them since every gas has a different temp at which they change state. This would be next to impossible though.
Title: Re: Hydrolysis
Post by: PFactorDave on January 18, 2012, 09:41:40 PM
Collecting Hydrogen and Oxygen through hydrolysis is pretty simple.  

Use a simple plasitc soda bottle placed top down into your liquid and over your electrode.  The hydrogen will bubble upwards and into the bottle displacing the air in the bottle from one electrode while oxygen bubbles up from the other.  There is no need to separate them.  One gas forms on the positive electrode, the other on the negative.  I forget which is which though.

WARNING!

This can be dangerous!!!!!!  Hydrogen can be explosive.  So can oxygen.  Throw in some electricity and a hormone soaked teenage boy who is unlikely to do the due diligence necessary...  Well, you've seen the Hindenburg film I am sure...  

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F54rqDh2mWA

 Study up before you try anything.  There are tons of resources that will tell you how to construct the experiment safely.  By the way...  This is probably the least efficient way to collect hydrogen.  You expend more energy collecting it then you can free by burning it, which is why we aren't all driving cars that are powered this way yet.

I should probably say one more thing for the lawyers...  DO NOT TRY THIS AT HOME!
Title: Re: Hydrolysis
Post by: curry1 on January 18, 2012, 09:55:28 PM
Collecting Hydrogen and Oxygen through hydrolysis is pretty simple.  

Use a simple plasitc soda bottle placed top down into your liquid and over your electrode.  The hydrogen will bubble upwards and into the bottle displacing the air in the bottle from one electrode while oxygen bubbles up from the other.  There is no need to separate them.  One gas forms on the positive electrode, the other on the negative.  I forget which is which though.

WARNING!

This can be dangerous!!!!!!  Hydrogen can be explosive.  So can oxygen.  Throw in some electricity and a hormone soaked teenage boy who is unlikely to do the due diligence necessary...  Well, you've seen the Hindenberg film I am sure...  

 Study up before you try anything.  There are tons of resources that will tell you how to construct the experiment safely.  By the way...  This is probably the least efficient way to collect hydrogen.  You expend more energy collecting it then you can free by burning it, which is why we aren't all driving cars that are powered this way yet.

This man speaks the truth.  I did exactly this in my 10th grade chem class.  We also put zinc in hydrochloric acid and collected the hydrogen from the reaction.  So many different ways to do this.
Title: Re: Hydrolysis
Post by: Tupac on January 18, 2012, 09:57:59 PM
zack1234 needs more pies  :old:
Title: Re: Hydrolysis
Post by: curry1 on January 18, 2012, 10:09:47 PM
While I wouldn't recommend doing it this way looks like the hydrogen gas forms on the negative side.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xyDdEuQafn4
Title: Re: Hydrolysis
Post by: PFactorDave on January 18, 2012, 10:16:16 PM
While I wouldn't recommend doing it this way looks like the hydrogen gas forms on the negative side.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xyDdEuQafn4

Yup, and that makes sense from a chemical stand point.

Title: Re: Hydrolysis
Post by: Penguin on January 19, 2012, 01:29:07 PM
However, I'd need a metal that won't corrode very easily.  Would copper do?

-Penguin
Title: Re: Hydrolysis
Post by: Dichotomy on January 19, 2012, 01:56:03 PM
Penguin

how tall are you?  I've got some pine boxes out back of varying sizes just in case  :devil
Title: Re: Hydrolysis
Post by: PFactorDave on January 19, 2012, 02:18:32 PM
However, I'd need a metal that won't corrode very easily.  Would copper do?

-Penguin

I seem to recall that when we did it, many hundreds of years ago, we used something like a 6 penny nails (maybe a little larger).
Title: Re: Hydrolysis
Post by: curry1 on January 19, 2012, 04:24:06 PM
I seem to recall that when we did it, many hundreds of years ago, we used something like a 6 penny nails (maybe a little larger).

Probably something of a bigger size would be better more surface area.  Penguin something is just telling me that copper wouldn't be what you would want to use.  I'm not saying you cant use a copper wire to connect your battery to whatever you have in the water, but you would want something else maybe put some aluminum foil or nails--like PFactorD said--something on the end of the wire to actually act as the electrode(probably not the right word can't think of a better one).
Title: Re: Hydrolysis
Post by: CAP1 on January 19, 2012, 05:15:34 PM
http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=10&ved=0CHUQFjAJ&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.overunity.com%2F3935%2Fnew-hho-system-in-production-for-automobile%2Fdlattach%2Fattach%2F16922%2F&ei=0qMYT_FtyuvSAcv02MYL&usg=AFQjCNE-U1NgNyYQk5sG6nng6da_j6BFZA
Title: Re: Hydrolysis
Post by: rpm on January 19, 2012, 06:07:22 PM
I know steel and iron will work. You get electrolysis in diesel engines and it eats up the heads and block.
Title: Re: Hydrolysis
Post by: CAP1 on January 19, 2012, 06:08:46 PM
I know steel and iron will work. You get electrolysis in diesel engines and it eats up the heads and block.
only if you've got bad grounds. it happens in gas engines too.  :devil
Title: Re: Hydrolysis
Post by: PFactorDave on January 19, 2012, 06:29:32 PM
Probably something of a bigger size would be better more surface area.  Penguin something is just telling me that copper wouldn't be what you would want to use.  I'm not saying you cant use a copper wire to connect your battery to whatever you have in the water, but you would want something else maybe put some aluminum foil or nails--like PFactorD said--something on the end of the wire to actually act as the electrode(probably not the right word can't think of a better one).

I think I've seen it with aluminum.  Rods would be better then foil, I think.
Title: Re: Hydrolysis
Post by: curry1 on January 19, 2012, 06:45:53 PM
I think I've seen it with aluminum.  Rods would be better then foil, I think.

Probably with the experiments I have done aluminum seems to oxidize pretty quickly when there is current put through it.  Probably something like a galvanized nail wouldn't have such a problem.  Then again there is salt in the water.  Hey penguin perhaps you could test different types of electrodes and see what kind makes the most amount of hydrogen.  That would be fun.
Title: Re: Hydrolysis
Post by: CAP1 on January 19, 2012, 07:24:25 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=osWBMrEkuks&feature=plcp&context=C3ad0c64UDOEgsToPDskIeDnhp5LiMeB9LsWBNrApK

 check this video. he has an entire series of videos, and a website, where you can find all you'll need.
Title: Re: Hydrolysis
Post by: Raphael on January 19, 2012, 07:29:35 PM
try this but don't lock the bottle, put a party baloon in a hole made in the bottle and there you go, you can fill some ballons with hidrogen with this.
Title: Re: Hydrolysis
Post by: rpm on January 19, 2012, 07:39:02 PM
only if you've got bad grounds. it happens in gas engines too.  :devil
Show me construction equipment that doesn't get bad grounds. ;)
We started to use water filters that had anti-corrosion tablets in the mid 80's. My first thought was, a water filter?
Title: Re: Hydrolysis
Post by: PFactorDave on January 19, 2012, 07:41:59 PM
try this but don't lock the bottle, put a party baloon in a hole made in the bottle and there you go, you can fill some ballons with hidrogen with this.

That's not a bad idea.  Balloon full of hydrogen + flame = impressive fireball
Title: Re: Hydrolysis
Post by: Tupac on January 19, 2012, 07:42:21 PM
(http://www.curragh-labs.org/blog/wp-content/uploads/2010/01/revenge-of-the-nerds.jpg)
Title: Re: Hydrolysis
Post by: Penguin on January 19, 2012, 08:12:21 PM
Probably with the experiments I have done aluminum seems to oxidize pretty quickly when there is current put through it.  Probably something like a galvanized nail wouldn't have such a problem.  Then again there is salt in the water.  Hey penguin perhaps you could test different types of electrodes and see what kind makes the most amount of hydrogen.  That would be fun.

Will do!  My hypothesis is that electrodes with higher conductivity and corrosion resistance will produce more hydrogen.

-Penguin
Title: Re: Hydrolysis
Post by: Dichotomy on January 19, 2012, 08:47:18 PM


(http://mimg.ugo.com/200812/22966/top-11-espionage-moments-revenge-of-the-nerds.jpg)
Title: Re: Hydrolysis
Post by: Meatwad on January 19, 2012, 08:56:52 PM
(http://www.curragh-labs.org/blog/wp-content/uploads/2010/01/revenge-of-the-nerds.jpg)

Just need to overlay some text into that picture of "Constipation", and the LOLs would roll  :D