Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: Chalenge on January 25, 2012, 01:50:09 AM
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This is exactly the situation that I believe a lot of people consider to be a HO but to me it is not. Sure... the spit tries to make a HO out of it but comes up short. The Spit is also pilot wounded and right over his base but I give him credit for fighting on until he bleeds out.
This is just a short video of the shot in question. Ho? or no ho?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mroGBg5Y3lY
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I think the question ought to be. Does anyone really care?
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I think the question ought to be. Does anyone really care?
Loss of vote. Comment stricken from the record.
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Spit didn't have a shot, nor could he get one. It appears that he focused all his energy on trying to shoot you when he should have been trying to avoid being shot himself.
Let me take this opportunity to say, I don't know why it's so hard for so many to understand what a HO is. If you both get a shot, it's a HO. Here's my question: If he can get a shot on you, then why leave yourself open? Don't go for the shot if he can do the same. STAY OUT OF HIS GUNSIGHT!
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Thank you Mar.
Its a hold over mindset from EA AW from what people have commented in previous threads. The problem is it persists and you can always say something about a HO if you fly a rapid turning plane and turn into the attack because then the shot will always be front quarter.
The purpose of my question is to make it clear that simply because it is front quarter doesnt make it a HO. Headon attacks occured in R/L have happened in AH and will continue to happen. But be clear on what an HO is.
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Even tho i would really like to see you once without a concrete tiger2 or a 20k pony...
This is not a head on.
Other thing, when you both have guns on each other at longer ranges, then one tryes to break and the other one is forcing and spraying like crazy. Maybe technically isnt a ho but still super lame.
This is for the "it takes 2 to ho" awesomenesses.
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I do not understand what is "wrong" with a HO
Considering my aircraft, my opponents, and the entire situation of the fight, there is no reason why it is not a legitimate tactic.
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I do not understand what is "wrong" with a HO
Considering my aircraft, my opponents, and the entire situation of the fight, there is no reason why it is not a legitimate tactic.
I choose not to HO unless outnumbered except I HO any 262 I see without exception - any shot possible on anyone in a jet. WAY too many dweebs in jets these days! Its my opinion that kill-starved hording weekend-ers go for the HO because they want to score hits first and claim the kill. So they HO everything. It makes defending against hordes unattractive and the land-grabbers know it.
Oh and I "HO" bombers although its intended to be a high quarter attack. Its the only attack that makes sense really. I laugh at anyone that saddles up on the rear. Of course there are plenty of people that get away with it... sadly most of them are gone in a flash.
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I do not understand what is "wrong" with a HO
Considering my aircraft, my opponents, and the entire situation of the fight, there is no reason why it is not a legitimate tactic.
There is 50% chance to lose the HO, ergo instant death. Also there is 100% chance that your plane will be damaged, tipically oil, radiator, engine out.
For me the fun is the ACM, not the BnZ, not hoing the firts spitfire i see then praying my aircraft all the way back. Yes, i will ho you if you try to gang me or theres a pony/190 playing chicken cheit tho, but never against an opponent who is up for a dance.
And also, please do not HO if you consider yourself better than the v-s/alchies.
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There is 50% chance to lose the HO, ergo instant death. Also there is 100% chance that your plane will be damaged, tipically oil, radiator, engine out.
For me the fun is the ACM, not the BnZ, not hoing the firts spitfire i see then praying my aircraft all the way back. Yes, i will ho you if you try to gang me or theres a pony/190 playing chicken cheit tho, but never against an opponent who is up for a dance.
And also, please do not HO if you consider yourself better than the v-s/alchies.
That is untrue, there is not a 50% chance to lose a HO
Some examples:
190A8 VS a Brewster. (you really suggest that is a 50/50?)?
An enemy that you regard as more timid, or one who wants to get an edge on the merge. (you can say that this is not a HO, but you started it that way)
A situation where the best solution is to take a chance to eliminate an enemy so that you have the best chances of winning the engagement. (Outnumbered, damaged, outclassed by an enemy with superior E)
On merge a lot can also be taken from your enemies actions. e.g a spitfire trying to HO my niki tells me a lot about my opponents flying style.
Often you can pick out an opponent who is committed to a HO before you are at risk, as a result that can tell you a lot about that players flying style, especially if you consider both aircraft and the circumstances.
And no, there is not a 100% chance you will take damage at all, that's just silly really.
I can attempt to break away if things are not in my favor
I can kick the rudder hard and sideslip
I can assume my enemy is likely to miss considering my plane VS theirs. (A La7 is not likely to be able to land hits before a typhoon for example) and I know this, this all factors into whether to engage in this or not
A HO is a valuable tactic, I agree risky, but with whatever current situation a pilot is presented with can be a very useful tactic.
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What you were writing is all true.
Still, in my opinion, using the ho as a basic tactic in an even fight just becouse my plane has bigger guns (for example spit vs niki or f4u) is just lame.
Someone said: "i only fear those spitfires who do not ho". And thats a big truth. Exactly, the first merge tells everything about your opponent.
Still, this game is about fun. For me, the ACM, for you, if you are that level and never wanna improve, the HO every time you have bigger guns. Amen to that.
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Ho! Ho!
(http://dc193.4shared.com/img/SX0OT2dB/hoho.PNG) (http://www.4shared.com/photo/SX0OT2dB/hoho.html)
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Ho is a combat maneuver. Like the split-S or Hammerhead.
You do hammerhead and then attack.
whether it is a ho? :neener:
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No HO, but it does beg the question; was the Spitfire pilot fully concious, because he looked half alseep to me?
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i dont HO reason because well if you HO you can get rammed easy.
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anyone can ho, i can and on occasion do. so does everyone else. the question is can you shoot him down from a lesser position? to me, thats the fun of this game. after the first merge, are you good enough to shoot him down from behind or from the side. its not about honor, its about a good fight.
Head to head, i hold fire, until he fires first, if at all. if you fire, not only will i ho you, but ill try to ram you too. if you hold, ill try to get behind you.
again Ho'ing is easy. depending on who you go up against, some can take you out from 1k. the fun is in what happens after you pass each other. is a ho acm? yeah probably. ive read accounts about how they did it in the war, but do you want a 10 second fight, or a 4 minute fight. that's the difference.
its up to you as to what you want, and how you want to play. personally, I've had some great fights, because neither of us ho'ed. its a great experience. but, i dont play for score, i dont play for a particular chess piece, i play for the fun, and the thrill of the fight. how you play is up to you.
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The reason I don't like the HO shot is because the enemy can shoot me. Shooting from the 6 o'clock position is a whole lot more safe. :aok
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Even tho i would really like to see you once without a concrete tiger2 or a 20k pony...
This is not a head on.
Other thing, when you both have guns on each other at longer ranges, then one tryes to break and the other one is forcing and spraying like crazy. Maybe technically isnt a ho but still super lame.
This is for the "it takes 2 to ho" awesomenesses.
This. If you try to be a goodie 2 shoes, half the time, the other still tries to fire at you regardless, costing you E to perform that break turn, or causing you to dive/turn while he climbs straight up after you pass him, giving him an advantage.
On the other hand, right before I "break" incase the other guy starts firing, I simply fly to the side a little bit. If he doesn't fire, then a real fun fight begins, if he does, I break.
Sometimes, in a situation where he has altitude advantage, I will point my nose at him for as long as possible, and if he fires first, he takes it. If he doesn't, the fight goes on until he/I are on each other's tail.
In a base defense, I will HO, against 20+ guys, I will HO, against 262s, I will HO, against bombers, I will HO. If you piss me off by HOing continuously or vulching, I will HO, regardless of the situation. I had a case once where a group of players were vulching a field, relentlessly. "Fine, no big deal". I come back from a different base, I get HOed. Second time I come back, 5 kills served with a platter of whines that HOing suck. "Vulching is OK, but HOing is not?". We held on to that base for the entire day because none of them worked on the town.
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its not about honor, its about a good fight.
This. And, as Chalenge note, also a bit of a hold-over from AW, where taking a HO shot was just trying to beat the odds of the programming (which was designed to eliminate all HO shots but which didn't always). If you play this game for the sport of it you'll generally see the HO shot as lame because it's easy, requires little skill and because it ends the fight early. I suppose that if you're only interested in maximizing your kill numbers you won't care. The debate has raged for decades.
A note: the argument that the HO was a real-life tactic and so is fine here is unconvincing. This is not a real-life game, nor even really a simulation of a real-life war.
- oldman
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For me....
1. whenever you die..... no matter how ...... it is always your fault.....always.........no excuses
2. Now the second question.... how painful is it for you dying?
a. There are people who don't want to die.....ever!!!
b. There are people that don't mind dieying.....if they can get one or more kills....
HOers are always 1 + 2b people
and they can HO because they engage (1 + 2a) or (1 + 2b) people
So, if you die in a HO, just deal with it, you made a mistake, or, you don't mind dying IN A GAME THAT IS MAINLY ABOUT SURVIVING.
:salute
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The Spit already appeared to be engaged with two other bogeys. While your salvo wasn't a ho, you introduced a 3v1 disadvantage for the Spit. I'd say it was a pick of opprotunity as the Spit allowed the situation you took advantage of.
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Like I announce on 200 frequently I AM THE BESTEST ever and I will ho, ram, and any other move to kill you :x
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i thought a ho was two people not in a firball going head on and shooting the other guy in the face, without the intention of dogfighting.
If this occurs you up another plane it takes two to ho,
If some one shouts out that P51 is hoeing i am aware of it and adjust my response,
If you still complain that you were hoed on the merge after playing this game for more that 6 months you need to read a book or paint a fence, you obviously must be odd.
(http://dc382.4shared.com/img/aGX5Sb3k/0.6255111679667285/2_online.PNG) (http://www.4shared.com/photo/aGX5Sb3k/2_online.html)
Best plane in the game :)
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If you still complain that you were hoed on the merge after playing this game for more that 6 months you need to read a book or paint a fence, you obviously must be odd.
:aok
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I do not understand what is "wrong" with a HO
Considering my aircraft, my opponents, and the entire situation of the fight, there is no reason why it is not a legitimate tactic.
Choosing to put your face in front of several 50cals, 20mm and 30m guns is not only a legitimate tactic, it is also a very stupid tactic. So, given that every other tactic does not include looking down the barrels of several big guns one is always left wondering: "WT*? Was that the first thing that came to your mind?". If one asks that question out loud, the person asked gets extremely upset for some strange reason :old:
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Someone, a Trainer I believe, once said (I'm paraphrasing from memory) that if there was no chance of guns being fired during a nose to nose merge, then the pilots would then view that nose to nose position as a "safe" area. Thus changing the way that they approach a fight, using that "safe" spot as a tactic.
Since in Aces High there is always that possibility of guns being fired when nose to nose, the pilots must either manuever to get guns on or keep the other guys guns off at all times. There is no "safe" area except one that a pilot creates for himself by manuevering in such a way that the opponent cannot get guns on target.
This is why, when I fly in the Main Arena, I fire whenever I have guns on the opponent. I rarely intentionally go for a HO shot, although I have and most likely will again.
On another note... Someone above mentioned that he will always HO a 262... Personally, I don't see that as any different then the guy flying the Hurri who HO's the P51/190 that continually B&Zs... Or any other turny plane HOing a faster B&Z plane...
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On another note... Someone above mentioned that he will always HO a 262...
Makes sense because a 262 has only 4 30mms in the front. :rofl
Actually, the reason they do it is because the perk cost of the 262 is high so they will HO it because the chances are the 262 driver will try to avoid (to save the perks) while they will do everything they can to either HO or collide since their planes are free. Strategies that you would never even think about in real life in this game become the main tactics.
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Makes sense because a 262 has only 4 30mms in the front. :rofl
Actually, the reason they do it is because the perk cost of the 262 is high so they will HO it because the chances are the 262 driver will try to avoid (to save the perks) while they will do everything they can to either HO or collide since their planes are free. Strategies that you would never even think about in real life in this game become the main tactics.
Er... Wasn't a frontal shot a pretty common tactic IRL on 262s?
I believe it was Mtnman, PFactorDave. I happen to agree with it. Otherwise, I would like a diagram of all the appropriate angles where I can safely fly around people without fear of them taking a shot at me so I can work it into my strategy.
Wiley.
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Er... Wasn't a frontal shot a pretty common tactic IRL on 262s?
I believe it was Mtnman, PFactorDave. I happen to agree with it. Otherwise, I would like a diagram of all the appropriate angles where I can safely fly around people without fear of them taking a shot at me so I can work it into my strategy.
Wiley.
No problem, here it is. Any angle. 0 degrees is not really an angle. I am not talking about the bad guy putting guns on you or "frontal" attacks. I am talking about a person making the choice to look down 4 30mm barrels and call that a tactic. Would you do that in real life? See the difference?
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No problem, here it is. Any angle. 0 degrees is not really an angle. I am not talking about the bad guy putting guns on you or "frontal" attacks. I am talking about a person making the choice to look down 4 30mm barrels and call that a tactic. Would you do that in real life? See the difference?
Ok, I see the dividing line. I agree, I wouldn't call it a 'tactic'. If it was what was available and it was my job to stop him from getting through to wherever he's going? I wouldn't be happy about it, but I'd probably go to the side and try to throw rounds on with rudder, the same as I do if it comes up in the MA ingame. It's no real different argument than asking who in their right mind would attack a buff group flying close together? There's how many .50s being aimed at you at any given moment of your pass?
Wiley.
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If I know you're going to avoid the HO shot every time, that gives me a huge tactical advantage. At least be willing to employ it occasionally to keep the other guy honest.
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If I know you're going to avoid the HO shot every time, that gives me a huge tactical advantage. At least be willing to employ it occasionally to keep the other guy honest.
That works only in the DA if you are fighting the same guy over and over. How do you know who the other guy is in the MA during a base capture attempt or defense? The other reason it does not work is that the other guy welcomes it even if it means death, as long as he gets a chance to take you down with him.
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Well since you took the time to post it to youtube I watched it.............. No Ho.
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That works only in the DA if you are fighting the same guy over and over. How do you know who the other guy is in the MA during a base capture attempt or defense? The other reason it does not work is that the other guy welcomes it even if it means death, as long as he gets a chance to take you down with him.
Easy... if you engage the guy and he goes out of his way to avoid the HO after a couple of passes, then you know you probably have a tactical ace card you can play at some point. Assuming, of course, that he's not thinking exactly the same way.
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he never had guns....it was a BnZ pass......
two replies that made me laugh
Ho is a combat maneuver. Like the split-S or Hammerhead.
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So, if you die in a HO, just deal with it, you made a mistake, or, you don't mind dying IN A GAME THAT IS MAINLY ABOUT SURVIVING.
:salute
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That works only in the DA if you are fighting the same guy over and over. How do you know who the other guy is in the MA during a base capture attempt or defense? The other reason it does not work is that the other guy welcomes it even if it means death, as long as he gets a chance to take you down with him.
The same people often reup from the same base. It's easiest to see if you see something a bit unusual at a base and shoot it down, like a 110, and then see another 110 upping almost immediately, it's a fair guess that it's the same guy. The other guys can be a bit harder to detect if they fly something common, but they're generally still working the same area.
Most of the time I look at it purely as it relates to my survival. If I'm 1v1, I'll almost never HO. 2v1 I probably will not HO unless I'm getting really desperate. On a good day, my SA allows me to give 2 guys a run unless they're working well together.
Probably the greatest chance you have to be HOed by me is if I am 2v1 and doing alright, and you are coming in looking for a HO from the direction I am heading away from the other two. At that point, I find it is worth the risk of being faceshot to keep it at 2v1 instead of making it a 3v1.
If the odds are 3v1 or greater, I am taking whatever I can get, sorry.
I am also not going to deny, if you are the fourth or fifth guy in the last half hour or so that I have seen heading straight in on me to try to face shoot me, sometimes I will do it just out of spite. I know it gives me great pleasure to show the guy face shooting everything he can see in the 110 that those big guns actually need to hit their target to do damage. I'm sorry, it is one of my failings as a human. I believe I can live with it. :)
Wiley.
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No HO
Chalenge, would you tell me what sound pack you are using please, that sounds very good.
Thanks!
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Heh! Forgot the point of the thread. As to the video, not a HO. As several have stated, he was pulling toward you to try to get guns on, but he never had it. One of the most common whine generator shots in the game.
Wiley.
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No where near being a ho
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No HO
Chalenge, would you tell me what sound pack you are using please, that sounds very good.
Thanks!
My own. I bought a $500 digital recorder and $10k shotgun mic and a few lesser mics and visited airshows and tankfest and anywhere else I could get sounds. Its not complete yet. Its part of my education in digital design.
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Its a guns game, the idea is to shoot your opponent out of his machine. If you avoid taking a shot because it is a head on shot then you deserved to be shot head on.
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The Spit already appeared to be engaged with two other bogeys. While your salvo wasn't a ho, you introduced a 3v1 disadvantage for the Spit. I'd say it was a pick of opprotunity as the Spit allowed the situation you took advantage of.
The Spit is attempting to bring fire to bear on bombers under my charge. Also... coming from someone that has been outnumbered with rooks and knits by a factor of 30:1 and greater ALL trying to get their hits in... I dont care.
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no ho
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Makes sense because a 262 has only 4 30mms in the front. :rofl
Actually, the reason they do it is because the perk cost of the 262 is high so they will HO it because the chances are the 262 driver will try to avoid (to save the perks) while they will do everything they can to either HO or collide since their planes are free. Strategies that you would never even think about in real life in this game become the main tactics.
Incorrect in my case. I can count more than 100 times I have hoed a 262 and even though he fired he didnt hit anything. 262 drivers are using the plane for the fear factor and not because its a good ride. Oh there are exceptions but killing a 262 will make anyones day. So... its your duty as a fighter pilot to HO jets. Simple.
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No HO. If either of you had stopped maneuvering, you would not have collided spinner to spinner or leadeing edge to leading edge.
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NO HO
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There is 50% chance to lose the HO, ergo instant death. Also there is 100% chance that your plane will be damaged, tipically oil, radiator, engine out.
For me the fun is the ACM, not the BnZ, not hoing the firts spitfire i see then praying my aircraft all the way back. Yes, i will ho you if you try to gang me or theres a pony/190 playing chicken cheit tho, but never against an opponent who is up for a dance.
And also, please do not HO if you consider yourself better than the v-s/alchies.
I know, I know.. but it's just that when a clown bore sights me from 2k.. and I'm saying to myself "doesn't this moron know who the &%$# he's pointing his nose at????!!!!"
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he never had guns....it was a BnZ pass......
two replies that made me laugh
It was really
The pilot who escaped from the HO lost positions and energy.
the game does not have, load factor etc
blackouts and redouts
like in the real world
how many aces landed 5 + killed enemies? :)
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how many aces landed 5 + killed enemies? :)
Actually, by definition, all of them. ;)
Wiley.
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Load factor? Do you mean the tactical egg isnt portrayed properly in AH? If so I disagree. Eggroll works very well in AH. :devil
EDIT: Oh... just dawned on me you mean the effect upon the pilot.
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I think the question ought to be. Does anyone really care?
QFT!!!!
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Looked clean to me. The spit had no shot. :banana:
:aok Saito
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I think the question ought to be. Does anyone really care?
+1
But is not a Ho anyways.
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not a HO - there is deflection there.
It would be a HO if you and he are lined up and unloaded.
yes, unloaded means that both of you are not pulling Gs.
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Personally I TOTALLY avoid the whole HO or no HO debate, Before ANY merge I go into, I push some negative G's into a quick dive, then pull up as soon as he passes, generally avoiding going Head On in the first place, I never HO when Im head on unless left with no other option, simply because I am a good enough pilot.... ah who the h*ll am I kidding... My aim SUCKS, so I generally HAVE to avoid the shot or I die! :bhead :rofl
:cheers:
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Personally I TOTALLY avoid the whole HO or no HO debate, Before ANY merge I go into, I push some negative G's into a quick dive, then pull up as soon as he passes, generally avoiding going Head On in the first place, I never HO when Im head on unless left with no other option, simply because I am a good enough pilot.... ah who the h*ll am I kidding... My aim SUCKS, so I generally HAVE to avoid the shot or I die! :bhead :rofl
:cheers:
Ho Debates are like Religion, War and Political debates - someones right and someones wrong - either way purses get pulled out.
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Ho Debates are like Horde Debates too. Nobody can seem to agree on a complete definition and it turns into something that some will embrace and others will hate.