Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: RTHolmes on January 27, 2012, 11:15:53 AM
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#1
ROF is currently 20rpm, everywhere ive looked states 15-20rpm with an expert crew.
I cant help thinking that this would be with the fusing preset (ie. for defensive guns deep in germany which have had plenty of radar warning of an incoming bomber raid and could therefore preset the alt/time fuses and stack them up ready to fill the sky.)
The fusing station could only take 2 rounds at a time, it seems a bit far fetched that 2 rounds could be loaded into the fusing station, fuses set, rounds loaded into the breech and both fired in just 6s.
Should there be some kind of delay when adjusting the fusing?
And is the ROF too high anyway (ie. ~17rpm would be typical rather than ultimate 20rpm.)
#2
I assume that dispersion is modelled for the 88 rounds (as it is for other rounds), is variance in the fuse delay also modelled?
Cant find any specs on the fuses, but the timings cant have been that accurate and just a tiny time difference would translate into 100s of yards difference.
Given that we can adjust the fusing in realtime with a very accurate readout, and the icon range is also very accurate, I suspect the AH 88s will be much more deadly than RL 88s because the detonation of the shell is much less likely to over/undershoot the target.
thoughts? :headscratch:
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Is this a significant issue given how difficult to hit with the things are? We don't exactly have whole batteries controlled by a single player, which might actually make them a credible threat.
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#1
ROF is currently 20rpm, everywhere ive looked states 15-20rpm with an expert crew.
I cant help thinking that this would be with the fusing preset (ie. for defensive guns deep in germany which have had plenty of radar warning of an incoming bomber raid and could therefore preset the alt/time fuses and stack them up ready to fill the sky.)
The fusing station could only take 2 rounds at a time, it seems a bit far fetched that 2 rounds could be loaded into the fusing station, fuses set, rounds loaded into the breech and both fired in just 6s.
Should there be some kind of delay when adjusting the fusing?
And is the ROF too high anyway (ie. ~17rpm would be typical rather than ultimate 20rpm.)
#2
I assume that dispersion is modelled for the 88 rounds (as it is for other rounds), is variance in the fuse delay also modelled?
Cant find any specs on the fuses, but the timings cant have been that accurate and just a tiny time difference would translate into 100s of yards difference.
Given that we can adjust the fusing in realtime with a very accurate readout, and the icon range is also very accurate, I suspect the AH 88s will be much more deadly than RL 88s because the detonation of the shell is much less likely to over/undershoot the target.
thoughts? :headscratch:
regarding the RoF, if you research all of the tanks in AH and compare the RoF to what is reported by original sources (military, first hand accounts, etc), you will find discrepancies throughout. Many times though, it appears as if HTC simply takes what they deem to be the best RoF and apply it to the tanks. In terms of the 88mm, I think they've done the same thing. 20 RPM is not out of line.
In terms of HE and shrapnel dispersion, do a comparison of the US 5in naval gun, US 90mm AA, Soviet 85mm AA, British 94mm AA, etc, vs the German 88mm and you will find the 88mm was on the bottom of the list in term of TNT and shrapnel amount. That didnt make it not effective per say, but be careful when comparing it the 5in gun on the naval ships.
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I used an 88 around a vbase last night taking pot shots at tanks and planes at different ranges. The thing that struck me was how long I had to spin my mouse wheel to significantly increase or decrease the range. Certainly once dialed in it can lob a lot shells, but if the target is moving it was very hard to keep up range wise.
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First of all range can be adjusted quickly on the fly with the C and V keys. However, I don't see how getting kills with that thing will be anything other than luck.
In other words, I can't hit a barn with them.
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I've used them quite a bit. I have not hit anything whatsoever... ever... not even once. In my hands they are completely and utterly useless. I've seen other people use them too and I've not seen them hit anything either. And the OP wants them toned down.
In AH there are but a few 88, maybe 4 max. In real life there were dozens or even hundreds throwing up an entire wall of flak. If you make each 88 an accurate representation of real ones then they will be useless in comparison to massed flak.
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Haven't tried them yet, but if they are similar to a 5" it should be relatively easy to score a few kills.
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Put 88mms in the town. Slave them to a manned gun on a field.
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Haven't tried them yet, but if they are similar to a 5" it should be relatively easy to score a few kills.
They are not at all similar. First the traverse rate is slower. Second the player must manually set the fuse timing (range); there is no proximity fuse.
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I can kill the offline drones with them, but I haven't been able to hit anything live with them.
Haven't tried them yet, but if they are similar to a 5" it should be relatively easy to score a few kills.
They aren't. They do not have a proximity fuse.
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Haven't tried them yet, but if they are similar to a 5" it should be relatively easy to score a few kills.
Hope that works out for ya...5 inchers have proximity fuses....88s are preset for distance
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And the OP wants them toned down.
In AH there are but a few 88, maybe 4 max. In real life there were dozens or even hundreds throwing up an entire wall of flak. If you make each 88 an accurate representation of real ones then they will be useless in comparison to massed flak.
no I want them modelled accurately, if they arent already. thats different :)
yes there were hundreds of 88s around the more critical targets in germany, but there were also bomber raids with thousands of planes going to them. I'd say its roughly "to scale."
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no I want them modelled accurately, if they arent already. thats different :)
yes there were hundreds of 88s around the more critical targets in germany, but there were also bomber raids with thousands of planes going to them. I'd say its roughly "to scale."
i think they used alot more heavier guns around critical targets and on moblie AA trains like the 105 and 150mm
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:banana: :x :O I love the increased distance on the 5 inchers Icons! Going to have 200+ kills this month! :x :banana: :O
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I used an 88 around a vbase last night taking pot shots at tanks and planes at different ranges. The thing that struck me was how long I had to spin my mouse wheel to significantly increase or decrease the range. Certainly once dialed in it can lob a lot shells, but if the target is moving it was very hard to keep up range wise.
use C and V for quicker changes
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Haven't tried them yet, but if they are similar to a 5" it should be relatively easy to score a few kills.
uhhh no
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I would say [the 88 is] overmodeled rather than undermodeled because you get real time ranging and fuzing.
:aok
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I've used them quite a bit. I have not hit anything whatsoever... ever... not even once.
Practice, Grasshopper, practice.
I popped 2 mossies, a Niki, and a Tiffie my 2nd time in one** a couple days ago while defending a vbase.... the trick is I don't even try for the crossing shots or birds flying away from me, the ones who fly straight towards you are the easy ones. Just remember, fuse range is set for closer than the con is when you fire, ya want the round to blow up where he's gonna be once it gets there, not where he was when you shot it. One of the mossies I killed was from 6K+ away, but coming straight for the base. I set range on the fuse for about 500 less than the icon range, aimed well above him, and fired. He flew right into it. POOF.
** that all being said, those 4 kills were after about 100+ rounds fired in about 10 min, if I remember correctly, so yeh... the hit percentage is fairly low.
I don't even try for bombers.... I have had the rounds pop between planes and they keep flying with no visible damage.
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I love exploding AA right over GVs.
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Practice, Grasshopper, practice.
I have. I know how to use them including predicting not only location but range. I've used them a lot and I have occasionally destroyed targets with the flak burst, including some deflection shots. I've literally had more cases where the shell directly hits the target before bursting than kills via the burst. The success rate either way is truly minuscule. Using them is just an exercise in futility.
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I love exploding AA right over GVs.
Does that do anything? I wouldn't think little bits of shrapnel would harm armor. I presume you know you can select AP using Backspace right?
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I shot a plane down with a 88 and I am poo :old:
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I'm pretty good with the 37mm but the only kill so far in the 88 was from a guy losing a drone in a tight turn. :(
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I've used them quite a bit. I have not hit anything whatsoever... ever... not even once.
I have. I know how to use them including predicting not only location but range. I've used them a lot and I have occasionally destroyed targets with the flak burst, including some deflection shots. I've literally had more cases where the shell directly hits the target before bursting than kills via the burst. The success rate either way is truly minuscule.
:headscratch: :headscratch: :headscratch:
Using them is just an exercise in futility.
soooo...... you're saying the 88mm is not lethal enough?
I wonder what the manually aimed 88mm flak crews' hit percentages were....
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Against the common target, fighter's, the 88 isn't that effective (though I HAVE shot down a few of them with it :devil). Against bombers, it's a different story, especially if all the 88's are manned.
What gets me though is, from what I've heard about them is that a blast within 8-10 meters would almost always bring a bomber down, even the B-17. Within 8 meters and you were going down no matter what you were flying (minus Lady Luck's Grace). I am hoping someone has access to books on this bit because it was a LONG time ago that I heard this.
Below is an example:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ysQqi0-6His&feature=related
Ours isn't that deadly, as I've landed shots like this against bombers only to see em fly off with an oil/fuel leak.
The few things that have to be taken into account about the 88 crews are as follows:
1) They had AMPLE time to get setup for the incoming bombers, either via radar, observers and/or interceptors. Those bombers had to fly for 6+ hours, we only have to fly 15-30 minutes depending on alt to get to target (though we do have that lovely neon icon to help us for alt :D).
2) They had a LOT of flak guns protecting a target (depending on target of course). We have 2-4 depending on base. Even the Capital is woefully under-protected compared targets of equal importance in WW2. (Though I WILL say that it takes out my formation of B-29's like a 262 flying over a CV. :bhead :cry)
As for the hit percentages, it would depend if you meant a single gun crew or a flak battery. I would guess better than us, regardless. A majority of the bombers lost were to flak, not fighters.
This bit is a little unrelated to this topic but, if somebody could tell me what show this was from, would be much appreciated. :salute
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zp1teqL-TLc&feature=related
I remember watching it a long time ago, but I bloody well can't remember the name of it. :bhead
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Against the common target, fighter's, the 88 isn't that effective (though I HAVE shot down a few of them with it :devil). Against bombers, it's a different story, especially if all the 88's are manned.
What gets me though is, from what I've heard about them is that a blast within 8-10 meters would almost always bring a bomber down, even the B-17. Within 8 meters and you were going down no matter what you were flying (minus Lady Luck's Grace). I am hoping someone has access to books on this bit because it was a LONG time ago that I heard this.
Below is an example:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ysQqi0-6His&feature=related
Ours isn't that deadly, as I've landed shots like this against bombers only to see em fly off with an oil/fuel leak.
The few things that have to be taken into account about the 88 crews are as follows:
1) They had AMPLE time to get setup for the incoming bombers, either via radar, observers and/or interceptors. Those bombers had to fly for 6+ hours, we only have to fly 15-30 minutes depending on alt to get to target (though we do have that lovely neon icon to help us for alt :D).
2) They had a LOT of flak guns protecting a target (depending on target of course). We have 2-4 depending on base. Even the Capital is woefully under-protected compared targets of equal importance in WW2. (Though I WILL say that it takes out my formation of B-29's like a 262 flying over a CV. :bhead :cry)
As for the hit percentages, it would depend if you meant a single gun crew or a flak battery. I would guess better than us, regardless. A majority of the bombers lost were to flak, not fighters.
This bit is a little unrelated to this topic but, if somebody could tell me what show this was from, would be much appreciated. :salute
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zp1teqL-TLc&feature=related
I remember watching it a long time ago, but I bloody well can't remember the name of it. :bhead
If the icon accuracy at extreme ranges for 88s gets dumbed down a bit, I'd be supportive of bumping up their lethality.
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This bit is a little unrelated to this topic but, if somebody could tell me what show this was from, would be much appreciated. :salute
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zp1teqL-TLc&feature=related
I remember watching it a long time ago, but I bloody well can't remember the name of it. :bhead
Yay!! PBS!!
The World at War (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_World_at_War)
BTW, even a direct hit from AAA didn't always bring down a plane. So 8-10 meters...?
wrongway
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I think that in historic terms it took hundereds of thousands of rounds to actually destroy an aircraft. If that was realistic to our 88's who on earth would ever want to use them. I'm going with gameplay on this one.
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Yay!! PBS!!
The World at War (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_World_at_War)
I was curious to what the name of the program was. Thank you. :salute
BTW, even a direct hit from AAA didn't always bring down a plane. So 8-10 meters...?
I am not too sure about it. It was quite a while ago that I heard this so I probably heard it incorrectly (may have been closer?). I still say that they had to of been graced by Lady Luck for them and their plane to survive a direct hit from an 88. In any event, I probably should have slipped in that "(?)" mark in there somewhere to make my uncertainty about it more clear. :o
wrongway
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well its been said by skuzzy that they are over modeled do to the fact that fuse and rmp are not accurately modeled as far as time and percision. but as he notes they are used in large packs which has a shotgun effect. we all know we are not getting a pack of 88s anywhere but what we have is fantastic in Lu of that. id like to see airfields/ vbases and port/cv very heavily acked its only more real.
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:headscratch: :headscratch: :headscratch:
There was time between those two posts. In that time I practiced and got better.
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There was an hour between those posts. You got a lot better in an hour!
See, there's nothing wrong with the 88's, they're a blast! (pun intended)!
:aok
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I'm getting closer...still need some work but I'm having fun with it. It's a fun addition to the game. When some folks get good at it, hoarders better spred the hell out! Lol
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They do not have a proximity fuse.
Lets not forget that the 88 has an explosive charge about what, 1/2, 1/3rd as small as the 5" guns (127mm).
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Damn, spent a good few hours on 88's last nite, without as much as an assist. Give me a freaking break. I had decent fuse sets and clearly was hitting near the planes, but not a single kill and what bugs me the most is not a single assist. WTF?? Seriously, why not just yank 'em out. This is a game, and as far as this game goes, these friggen 88's don't add a dam thing to game play other than being a target for strafing runs.
AH sure wasted a hell of a lot of computer time coming up with a worthless addition. They could have spent twice as much time working on only tree leaf colors and been more worthwhile. And, I am tired of hearing all the realism arguments, this is a game. :bhead
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BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH.......... And, I am tired of hearing all the realism arguments, this is a game. :bhead
spoken like a true gamer........................ ........
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Damn, spent a good few hours on 88's last nite, without as much as an assist. Give me a freaking break. I had decent fuse sets and clearly was hitting near the planes, but not a single kill and what bugs me the most is not a single assist. WTF?? Seriously, why not just yank 'em out. This is a game, and as far as this game goes, these friggen 88's don't add a dam thing to game play other than being a target for strafing runs.
AH sure wasted a hell of a lot of computer time coming up with a worthless addition. They could have spent twice as much time working on only tree leaf colors and been more worthwhile. And, I am tired of hearing all the realism arguments, this is a game. :bhead
I think they'll become a lot more useful and deadly when folks get used to them. Right now it's an entirely new skill to learn.
I haven't had the chance to shoot one at a goon or airdropped troops yet, but they should be very useful for that. Where the town is close enough to the field, they will add a new dimension in that the base will have to be at least partly deacked for the field to be taken.
They may also be useful against milkrunning buffs.
Against fighters, they shouldn't be very powerful. CV puffy ack and 5"ers are already bad enough in that respect, the last thing the game needs would be field ack that was that deadly.
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There was an hour between those posts. You got a lot better in an hour!
:huh There was over a week between those posts.
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Against fighters, they shouldn't be very powerful. CV puffy ack and 5"ers are already bad enough in that respect, the last thing the game needs would be field ack that was that deadly.
I am going to disagree with you right off on that one. Why should the fighter have a better chance surviving a hit vs a bomber? It makes no sense.
I've flown through my fair share of cv ack and while I have been shot down (quite a few times I may add), there have been more than a few times that I've gone through it without getting hit. As for the 5" guns, don't be so predictable and you stand a better chance against them.
In regards to the distance to town, there is not a single field in the MA maps that has a town out of range from the 88's (though there are a few that are "covered" by a mountain or hill). So now they will have to be hit before attempting a take. Right now, you could probably get away with ignoring them as a good chunk of people are not use to them yet. But once they learn, it will be a requirement to take out the 88's to insure success.
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I am going to disagree with you right off on that one. Why should the fighter have a better chance surviving a hit vs a bomber? It makes no sense.
I've flown through my fair share of cv ack and while I have been shot down (quite a few times I may add), there have been more than a few times that I've gone through it without getting hit. As for the 5" guns, don't be so predictable and you stand a better chance against them.
In regards to the distance to town, there is not a single field in the MA maps that has a town out of range from the 88's (though there are a few that are "covered" by a mountain or hill). So now they will have to be hit before attempting a take. Right now, you could probably get away with ignoring them as a good chunk of people are not use to them yet. But once they learn, it will be a requirement to take out the 88's to insure success.
I think he ment effective, aka harder to hit a turning fighter then a straight flying buff at 6k.
As to dropping the 88's, well I have found bases already with nothing but 88s taken out.
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:huh There was over a week between those posts.
:rofl :rofl Oh LOL, sorry, just looked at the time of the posts, not the dates (DUH!)
Was away from the forums all last week, didn't bother to look to see that this thread was days old....
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All this debate and nobody has asked VIlkas how accurate they are, or are not?
Shame on you...
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Fighters always peeled off before the buffs reached their target.
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Well i got lucky and actually hit a set of buffs at 5.5k 1 puff between destroyed one and lit the other up :x now that being said was total luck I say somehow if radar is up get alt and speed fed to gun, make the radar abit tougher to kill, would make the buff milk runs a little scarier just my .02
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Artillery, including AAA is a science. In reality, AAA were fired in batteries, which were linked to radar or optical rangefinders and predictors, and which had well drilled crews feeding them. Time-to-target would vary for every shot, and current automatic fuse setters are quite quick. Automatic fuse setting would be simply part of the process. 20 RPM isn't unreasonable for an initial rate, although rate of fire would be limited by barrel heating fairly quickly. However, unless you want to get into battery survey and co-ordination, there's going to be some game-y aspect to their inclusion. However, seeing a Spitfire zoom down to machinegun a flight of Lancasters isn't all that realistic either. Can be fun though...
Enjoy the game, adapt to its circumstances.
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In reality, AAA is a science. But in here it, as with most things, is an art.
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I've not been in the 88's that much but I still have more luck with hitting the plane with the shell than actually killing them with the burst. I'm not sure how many kill's I have in the 88's but only 2 of them have actually come from a burst, and that was one that blew up between two bomber and lit them both up. Other than that every kill I have with them are from a direct hit from the shell. I guess all these months of shooting at planes with my tanks has paid off lol
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weren't these used primarily against huge formations of bombers? Formations much bigger than we usually see in ah?
Maybe we should start having 4 or 5 plane bomber formations?
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To put things into perspective, "Die schwere Flak" by Dörfler gives the average number of rounds fired for each kill as
16,000 rounds for the 8,8 Flak 36/37 and
8,500 rounds for the 8,8 Flak 41
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So 3 kills with 8000 rounds is good gunning?! W00T
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Well then the 88 mm are grossly overmodeled as I get about 1 kill per 100 to 200 shots. ;) (yes I measured it once)
Makes you wonder who in their right mind would man a player position that had a 1/8500 or 0.012% chance of success.
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Well then the 88 mm are grossly overmodeled as I get about 1 kill per 100 to 200 shots. ;) (yes I measured it once)
Makes you wonder who in their right mind would man a player position that had a 1/8500 or 0.012% chance of success.
Over modeled? You do realize most in Ah do not come in at 25000 ft.
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Over modeled? You do realize most in Ah do not come in at 25000 ft.
Yes. I was being sarcastic; hence the ;)