Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: chaser on February 09, 2012, 07:45:30 PM
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I've come to the conclusion that nobody actually knows how the collision model works and I have a film to back that up. For those that claim that your end has to see a collision to receive damage, that's BS.
In this film I clearly never make contact with him and receive the collision and lose a wing. Now if it had said "Geist has collided with you" I would have been fine with it, because I've always thought both should receive damage in the first place. But instead we miss on BOTH ends and I still get the "you have collided" message and I go down. He was going down anyways because I had already shot one off one of his wings off but now instead of me getting a kill on him, he gets a kill on me. :bhead :bhead
As I said before, this wouldn't be an issue if both planes would receive damage already, I would have been completely fine with it, however this film is just to show that the collision model doesn't even work like its supposed to now.
http://www.mediafire.com/?er4bkzdmqzpcpck (http://www.mediafire.com/?er4bkzdmqzpcpck)
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cut it close much?
also. i don't see a collision message.
also.. nice horde :)
I think the 110 shot your wing off.
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at least he's provided a film to go with his whine thread, most don't
unfortunately I can't view it myself atm
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cut it close much?
also. i don't see a collision message.
also.. nice horde :)
It doesn't show up in film veiwer. The blank message that shows up in chat bar is where the collision message was.
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It doesn't show up in film veiwer. The blank message that shows up in chat bar is where the collision message was.
i'll give you benefit of doubt, because I slowed it down to .04x and watched from many views. and didn't see a collsion..it is CLOSE, maybe 2 or 3 feet, but when I didn't notice a collision message, I just assume he was firing and scored hits, the same way you lost left elevator about a second before, and you just saw lag, which made it seem like a collision..
btw b25 vs 110 HO pass.. classy :aok
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I CALLED IT ON 200!!!!!!!!!!!!
i knew a whine thread was brewin! :aok :aok :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :bolt: :bolt: :bolt:
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i'm wondering if another "im quitting post" will soon follow :cry :cry :cry :cry
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I've come to the conclusion that nobody actually knows how the collision model works and I have a film to back that up. For those that claim that your end has to see a collision to receive damage, that's BS.
I'm sure that you're right that a lot, including yourself, have no clue as to how the collision model works. Which is why you probably posted this but sadly it will fall on your deaf ears if we try and explain it to you as you've already made up your closed mind.
ack-ack
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I CALLED IT ON 200!!!!!!!!!!!!
i knew a whine thread was brewin! :aok :aok :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :bolt: :bolt: :bolt:
i'm wondering if another "im quitting post" will soon follow :cry :cry :cry :cry
Prime example of the twits that make it impossible to actually discuss something on the boards. Welcome to my ignore list trolls.
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I'm sure that you're right that a lot, including yourself, have no clue as to how the collision model works. Which is why you probably posted this but sadly it will fall on your deaf ears if we try and explain it to you as you've already made up your closed mind.
ack-ack
Did you even watch the film? :bhead If it worked like people say neither of us would have collided.
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I CALLED IT ON 200!!!!!!!!!!!!
i knew a whine thread was brewin! :aok :aok :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :bolt: :bolt: :bolt:
With chaser is just a matter of time...
ack-ack
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Who said they have to show on film?
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Who said they have to show on film?
Why wouldn't it?
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Could the propeller arch have touched?
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Why wouldn't it?
lots of things dont display right in film viewer...
i.e CV position isnt always right in film viewer
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Geist got the kill on you because you hit the ground before he did, real simple.
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I've come to the conclusion that nobody actually knows how the collision model works and I have a film to back that up. For those that claim that your end has to see a collision to receive damage, that's BS.
In this film I clearly never make contact with him and receive the collision and lose a wing. Now if it had said "Geist has collided with you" I would have been fine with it, because I've always thought both should receive damage in the first place. But instead we miss on BOTH ends and I still get the "you have collided" message and I go down. He was going down anyways because I had already shot one off one of his wings off but now instead of me getting a kill on him, he gets a kill on me. :bhead :bhead
As I said before, this wouldn't be an issue if both planes would receive damage already, I would have been completely fine with it, however this film is just to show that the collision model doesn't even work like its supposed to now.
http://www.mediafire.com/?er4bkzdmqzpcpck (http://www.mediafire.com/?er4bkzdmqzpcpck)
From the lists of "fixes" in the newest version....
Version 2.27 Patch 0 Changes
======================
External view mode is now disabled in manned guns.
Icons now mask when the vehicle or plane is hidden behind vegetation.
Added a less obtrusive dialog box that appears in the upper left corner for items such as join requests.
Fixed some typos in the Panzer IVF loadouts.
Added a bomb loadout option to the 109E.
External engine sounds are no longer heard when your engine is running.
Changed the default fighter launch point at ports and vehicle bases.
Wirbel and Ostwind turrets can no longer take on indefinite damage after they've been destroyed without eventually destroying the vehicle.
Changed the cockpit head bounds on the F6F.
Changed the default skins of the P-47D-25 and Spitfire I.
Fixed a bug with the mission editor not saving missions properly.
Fixed a crash bug that happened when jumping between bombers in a formation after a bomber had been destroyed.
The film viewer now saves its window size and position between sessions.
Collision messages are now recorded in films.
I haven't tested it yet, but I AVOID collisions
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I guess I should have taken a screenshot of the message but I had the "you have collided" message in the chat box.
Edit: As I mentioned before a blank message displays in place of the collision message. For some reason it shows up in the film veiwer as ":-"
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here is where you lost left elevator from the HO.
(http://img828.imageshack.us/img828/7833/ho110lostlelev.jpg) (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/828/ho110lostlelev.jpg/)
here is close to the "collision"
(http://img84.imageshack.us/img84/416/b25vs110hocoll1.jpg) (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/84/b25vs110hocoll1.jpg/)
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I thought the flight paths in the film viewer were not exact, just close. As though the film recorder only takes position notes ever .5 seconds or so and then just draws the flight paths like connect the dots.
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I've come to the conclusion that nobody actually knows how the collision model works and I have a film to back that up. For those that claim that your end has to see a collision to receive damage, that's BS.
In this film I clearly never make contact with him and receive the collision and lose a wing. Now if it had said "Geist has collided with you" I would have been fine with it, because I've always thought both should receive damage in the first place. But instead we miss on BOTH ends and I still get the "you have collided" message and I go down. He was going down anyways because I had already shot one off one of his wings off but now instead of me getting a kill on him, he gets a kill on me. :bhead :bhead
As I said before, this wouldn't be an issue if both planes would receive damage already, I would have been completely fine with it, however this film is just to show that the collision model doesn't even work like its supposed to now.
http://www.mediafire.com/?er4bkzdmqzpcpck (http://www.mediafire.com/?er4bkzdmqzpcpck)
Kinda hard to please aren't ya? :)
It's just a cartoon airplane, and you aren't really dead. Get a new plane, go back and try again. :aok
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I've come to the conclusion that nobody actually knows how the collision model works and I have a film to back that up. For those that claim that your end has to see a collision to receive damage, that's BS.
In this film I clearly never make contact with him and receive the collision and lose a wing. Now if it had said "Geist has collided with you" I would have been fine with it, because I've always thought both should receive damage in the first place. But instead we miss on BOTH ends and I still get the "you have collided" message and I go down. He was going down anyways because I had already shot one off one of his wings off but now instead of me getting a kill on him, he gets a kill on me. :bhead :bhead
As I said before, this wouldn't be an issue if both planes would receive damage already, I would have been completely fine with it, however this film is just to show that the collision model doesn't even work like its supposed to now.
http://www.mediafire.com/?er4bkzdmqzpcpck (http://www.mediafire.com/?er4bkzdmqzpcpck)
You can tell HTC he's wrong but he wrote it. :)
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I've come to the conclusion that nobody actually knows how the collision model works and I have a film to back that up. For those that claim that your end has to see a collision to receive damage, that's BS. In this film I clearly never make contact with him and
Are you ABSOLUTELY SURE ? He didn't shoot you with his .45 ?
Sorry, Couldn't resist ... I too think BOTH planes should GO DOWN after a collision ... The classic "NO" to this idea is based on the POSSIBILITY the guy on the other end isn't anywhere near colliding and should not be punished ... I've been there, seen the other guy go down ... but I've NEVER gotten a collision message that suprised me ... It's ALWAYS occured when a collision was inevitable, the suprise was flying away unhurt ... How MANY have experienced circumstances involving the OTHER GUY going down when they had NO REASON to expect a collision ?
:salute
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most people understand how the collision model works. and most hate it as a double standard.
-I can avoid somebody colliding with me on my end and I wont take damage.
-I can avoid somebody having gun solution on my end and I still die. been killed many times by a fighter's tail gunner :bhead.
the solution to that problem is I dont think about it anymore. It's like trying to argue the ho/front quarter shot thingy.
semp
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most people understand how the collision model works. and most hate it as a double standard.
-I can avoid somebody colliding with me on my end and I wont take damage.
-I can avoid somebody having gun solution on my end and I still die. been killed many times by a fighter's tail gunner :bhead.
the solution to that problem is I dont think about it anymore. It's like trying to argue the ho/front quarter shot thingy.
semp
If he hits you on his front end, collision or bullets, he hits you.
But I'm sure everyone would rather spontaneously blow up as they fly fifty feet under the plane they just dove under because, on his front end, there was a collision.
Flow chart please.
wrongway
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If he hits you on his front end, collision or bullets, he hits you.
But I'm sure everyone would rather spontaneously blow up as they fly fifty feet under the plane they just dove under because, on his front end, there was a collision.
Flow chart please.
wrongway
like i said double standard, I can avoid crashes but not guns. I spontaneously blow up as I can see on my end that his guns are never pointing at me. understand it, yes I do, but I dont have to like it :salute.
semp
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I'm sure that you're right that a lot, including yourself, have no clue as to how the collision model works. Which is why you probably posted this but sadly it will fall on your deaf ears if we try and explain it to you as you've already made up your closed mind.
ack-ack
Q F T
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I thought the flight paths in the film viewer were not exact, just close. As though the film recorder only takes position notes ever .5 seconds or so and then just draws the flight paths like connect the dots.
This seems highly likely to me.
Pretty close, but when you're closing speed is really high, not precisely precise.
Wiley.
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Chaser, what was HTC's response to your film? If you haven't gotten his response then this is just a bitter "notice me" whine thread that will only result in pages upon pages rehashing the same old crap. To save us all time please refer to the 29 pages on this subject http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,325218.0.html (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,325218.0.html) from just a few weeks ago.
If however you really want to effect a change, send the film to HTC and see what he says. Perhaps this is (God forbid) a bug, and not "BS" as you so claim.
:salute
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Chaser, what was HTC's response to your film? If you haven't gotten his response then this is just a bitter "notice me" whine thread that will only result in pages upon pages rehashing the same old crap. To save us all time please refer to the 29 pages on this subject http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,325218.0.html (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,325218.0.html) from just a few weeks ago.
If however you really want to effect a change, send the film to HTC and see what he says. Perhaps this is (God forbid) a bug, and not "BS" as you so claim.
:salute
I'm pretty sure he meant this thread as a joke. It would be embarrassing if he didn't.
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I too think BOTH planes should GO DOWN after a collision ...
thats because you dont understand real life mid-air collisions, let alone how collisions are modelled in AH.
and for the OP
http://trainers.hitechcreations.com/lag/lag.htm (http://trainers.hitechcreations.com/lag/lag.htm)
RTFM!
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Please don't try make this a normal collision thread.
After viewing the film, 1st I found a bug in this version , the "You have collided" message is being encoded incorrectly in the film.
In the posted film , the message is definitely in the film, but can not viewed correctly except by me analyzing the data..
So things are working exactly as they have always been describe because Chasers computer detected a collision.
So now why did it detect a collision when the film shows separation of about 2 - 3 feet.
It is multiple things.
First look at the closure speeds of 600 mph.
Do to how the film is replayed, both the person taking the film and the other players can be played back at slightly different positions then in game.
Also Geist roll rate is very high which also increasing both the display discrepancy, and the margin of error in collision detection.
Now at 600 mph the planes are closing at approximately 1 foot per Mill a second, to put things into perspective, 60 FPS is 1 frame every 16 Mill a seconds. With accelerations and velocities in both translational and rotational axis there is always a margin of error in collision detection.
So what you are seeing is the worst case scenario, a combination of things, 1st is the small error in the film viewer and 2nd is the small error in collision detection.
Note these small discrepancies can work both ways. There also can be cases of where the film viewer would show a collision but a collision was not detected during play.
HiTech
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:aok Yeah....What HiTech said! :rock
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most people understand how the collision model works. and most hate it as a double standard.
-I can avoid somebody colliding with me on my end and I wont take damage.
-I can avoid somebody having gun solution on my end and I still die. been killed many times by a fighter's tail gunner :bhead.
the solution to that problem is I dont think about it anymore. It's like trying to argue the ho/front quarter shot thingy.
semp
There are 2 main differences between gunnery and collisions that I think make it reasonable and, in fact, the right choice.
1) Rubber bullet phenomenon aside, if gunnery wasn't based entirely on the gunner's POV, he would see a lot more hits that wouldn't wind up counting, and that would bring massive frustration in short order. Yes, sometimes lag causes you to receive the information that your plane was in fact hit by the enemy after he's gone by, but your plane on his end did get in front of his sights at some point.
2) Collisions are relatively easier to dodge than bullets. You can only effectively dodge bullets in very broad terms because enemy gunnery is only an approximation on your end. You can cut it quite a bit finer when it comes to collisions, because what your end is showing is what will be counted.
Given the alternatives to these two scenarios, I think it makes sense how they have it set up. Between the two, bullets hitting me from funny angles annoys me a lot more than the other guy not dying when he runs into me. It's an imperfect world, but as you say, we put up with it.
Hitech- You should sticky that post, maybe also with something about how other planes' gunnery is represented on your FE.
Wiley.
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Please don't try make this a normal collision thread.
After viewing the film, 1st I found a bug in this version , the "You have collided" message is being encoded incorrectly in the film.
In the posted film , the message is definitely in the film, but can not viewed correctly except by me analyzing the data..
So things are working exactly as they have always been describe because Chasers computer detected a collision.
So now why did it detect a collision when the film shows separation of about 2 - 3 feet.
It is multiple things.
First look at the closure speeds of 600 mph.
Do to how the film is replayed, both the person taking the film and the other players can be played back at slightly different positions then in game.
Also Geist roll rate is very high which also increasing both the display discrepancy, and the margin of error in collision detection.
Now at 600 mph the planes are closing at approximately 1 foot per Mill a second, to put things into perspective, 60 FPS is 1 frame every 16 Mill a seconds. With accelerations and velocities in both translational and rotational axis there is always a margin of error in collision detection.
So what you are seeing is the worst case scenario, a combination of things, 1st is the small error in the film viewer and 2nd is the small error in collision detection.
Note these small discrepancies can work both ways. There also can be cases of where the film viewer would show a collision but a collision was not detected during play.
HiTech
Fixed.
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Fixed.
Where? :headscratch:
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Where? :headscratch:
If you have to ask....THE man answered
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If you have to ask....THE man answered
Got that, thought you meant something else.
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Got that, thought you meant something else.
Cc...nope
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I got one over the weekend.
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Another fix :aok
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How is this for the internet and the collison modle.................... :noid
Last week I watched an enemy aircraft dive to pick a freindly from 2k out. I called on VOX for the freindly to check his 6. The enemy aircraft looked like he dove too fast, clipped the freindly from behind and continued in brightly burning broken smoking peices into the ground behind the freindly. No ack was firing and no other freindlys within 3k. The freindly I called to on VOX was in a P47 so no rear gunner.
Then I pull up side him and mention that was one knarly collison I witnessed. He says he got no collision message and it looked like the guy dove behind him into the ground. He didn't even see the flames and broken wreakage I saw. Just the enemy aircraft diving down behind him and lawn darting.
So the vaugaries of the collision model get weirder yet.
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JMHO but... the collision model seems to have been created with the idea that most people/pilots would normally try to avoid a collision in the first place. If this is true, it could very well be the worst feel-good effort ever attempted.
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JMHO but... the collision model seems to have been created with the idea that most people/pilots would normally try to avoid a collision in the first place. If this is true, it could very well be the worst feel-good effort ever attempted.
Feel good? More like real good. Don't hit stuff and you don't get damaged. Seems to work "real good" to me.
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Looks like it's still working to me.
GV Vs Plane
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IOqS2MfDbjw&feature=g-upl&context=G2de7d87AUAAAAAAAEAA
Plane Vs Plane
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R7ChOrpOPpI&feature=g-upl&context=G2ece4bcAUAAAAAAAAAA
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JMHO but... the collision model seems to have been created with the idea that most people/pilots would normally try to avoid a collision in the first place. If this is true, it could very well be the worst feel-good effort ever attempted.
The collision "model" only detects if you had an in-game collision on your PC. It's very simple.