Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: save on February 15, 2012, 12:49:22 PM
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I would like to start this thread about radiator hits.
Are some planes more prone to easier get radiator hits, Real life and in AH2.
How does/should double coolers impact on different plane types.
Armoured reservoirs on plane types and impact.
Can you make it back home without any coolant with reduced throttle real life and in AH2.
I occasionally fly plane types with liquid cooled engines. 190D TA152 P51B and 109 series.
To me it seems like the FW190/TA152 series are more likely to get coolant loss much easier than for example the P51B
Also when hit in the Dora / TA152 it looks like you have very short time until you need to enter glide mode where other planes can fly longer time.
Since it's a simulator we are flying, I would like to sum up if AH2 model coolant hit probability / damage / flying time before engine stops / if you can go without coolant for extended time, correctly.
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No. P51s were lost when the external failed it would go to the closed position, causing the engin to overheat and lock up. Lose coolant engine locks up in a matter of mins.
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+1 on this
as a sidenote after hundreds of hours in the P51D I can't remember loosing the radiator a single time. The 190D9 is very prone to this, but its annular radiator is right behind the rotor....
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+1 on this
as a sidenote after hundreds of hours in the P51D I can't remember loosing the radiator a single time. The 190D9 is very prone to this, but its annular radiator is right behind the rotor....
This is true, the difference between the 2 regards durabilty is shocking considering the pony has a huge rad slung under its belly.
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109s seem to attract bullets to their radiators also.
I have been flying P51s a lot lately and can't recall any radiator hits.
You can nurse a plane home by keeping an eye on your temp guage and shutting the engine down to cool off, then restart for a short period of time. It takes some effort, but you can do this indefinitely to get home.
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I never had a radiator hit in a year in a P51D, 190s are almost always the first hits are radiator, 109s get a mix between either oil or radiator hit before any other part.
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I'm a PonyD driver but does it matter if the radiator is underneath the bird or behind the propellor? Look at a Dora wrong and the radiator pops a hole. PonyD, rare.
Boo
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You can nurse a plane home by keeping an eye on your temp guage and shutting the engine down to cool off, then restart for a short period of time. It takes some effort, but you can do this indefinitely to get home.
Yes, provided that you have both speed and alt. With the engine off in a Dora, you lose both, quickly. A 109 can get double the distance vs. the Dora.
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Yes, provided that you have both speed and alt. With the engine off in a Dora, you lose both, quickly. A 109 can get double the distance vs. the Dora.
109s had 2 radiators and a shutoff valve. I don't know how long it could run on 1 radiator, but I'm sure it was much longer than any plane without such a system.
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I was referring to the glide characteristics of the planes in game.
I would imagine that in a real 109 that you could run it on one radiator without issue, provided that you reduce the throttle enough.
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Most spits had 2 radiators too.
The 109s are really prone to rad hits, pings on either the left or right wing root will cause a radiator hit.
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Yup, one 20mm or 2-3 50cal pings usually cause fatal damage on 109s.
Also sometimes i get the feeling that doras and 152s are flying radiators : )
In the other hand, the spits radiator very rarely gets hit. True, i very rarely fly spitfires, maybe they lose the wing sooner than the radiator?
I would like to see planes with 2-rounded cooling system being able to run with reduced throttle. Or whatever the historical method was.
A bit off-topic, but...
oil damage. In my book, "The Italian Air War, from the liberation of Rome to the capitulation", there are plenty of memoirs about dogfights and chases. Many spitfire pilots chased down 109s in that time. The tipical story was the following: spit reaches some hits on the gustav, he runs away smoking, the spits chasing. And the engines werent like full power to an exact point then full jam, but they lost power continously. Ergo, many spit pilots said, the 109/410 could extend for a while, then they started to slow down and got caught.
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Yea,,,fart by a 190d or TA152 and your radiator is hit, from any direction.
I can not understand how they ever got close to any allied bombers in ww2 having such a fragile radiator.
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On the 109, if one radiator was hit, they had the option to shut it off via a pull cable in the Cockpit. Even with the valve closed, it it still leaked. Though it did provide the pilot a little extra breathing room, it probably gave him enough to get him back across the front lines.
I got this from a CD I have of Black 6 when they did audio recording for the plane. In the end of the disk, there is a intreview with the pilot and ground crew, and they talk about exactly this as to what I have posted above.
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On Spitfires with two radiators (Mk VIII, Mk IX, Mk XIV and Mk XVI in AH) there was a valve that would automatically shut flow if a radiator was hit.
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The 109s are really prone to rad hits, pings on either the left or right wing root will cause a radiator hit.
At least from allied pilot stories, they describe the glycol stream coming out of the 109s as one of the first signs of damage. Of course, they tend to tell the stories about the planes that they eventually shot down and not the ones that took a hit and got away.
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"On the 109, if one radiator was hit, they had the option to shut it off via a pull cable in the Cockpit. Even with the valve closed, it it still leaked. Though it did provide the pilot a little extra breathing room, it probably gave him enough to get him back across the front lines."
From memoirs that I have read none of German aces remembers to mention shutting down the damaged radiator. While they were usually able to get back to their own side (eastern front) and even land the engine usually seized at some point. This leads me to think that while the option for shut off valve was technically there they were not installed very often -or they just did not remember they actually shut the valve.
-C+
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"On the 109, if one radiator was hit, they had the option to shut it off via a pull cable in the Cockpit. Even with the valve closed, it it still leaked. Though it did provide the pilot a little extra breathing room, it probably gave him enough to get him back across the front lines."
From memoirs that I have read none of German aces remembers to mention shutting down the damaged radiator. While they were usually able to get back to their own side (eastern front) and even land the engine usually seized at some point. This leads me to think that while the option for shut off valve was technically there they were not installed very often -or they just did not remember they actually shut the valve.
-C+
That may be on the Bf109, but the Spitfire's was electrically operated automatically when the mesh over the radiator was pierced.
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Charge, I too am aware of the radiator valve. In fact in the war, maintenance crews often prized the valve.... apparently not all factories installed them when building 109s.
You raise a good point. How would you even KNOW which radiator what hit?
Anyone have an ideas? I'm not sure I wuold have any clue which set of pipes were hit..... how would I know what one to turn off?
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Anyone have an ideas? I'm not sure I wuold have any clue which set of pipes were hit..... how would I know what one to turn off?
Maybe there was a pressure gauge? idk
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Eyeball Mk1. They simply looked from the side window and saw from vapor stream which radiator was leaking. ;)
-C+
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Eyeball Mk1. They simply looked from the side window and saw from vapor stream which radiator was leaking. ;)
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:lol You beat me to it
As for
190D9 and Ta 152: I've gotten radiator hit from DEAD 6 at least 40 times each plane, which is just simply flabbergasting! For one, there's the pilot seat armor, two, the firewall and engine!
Thirdly, there's 2 full inches of armor protecting the radiator in both planes! These planes' radiator "hit bubbles" need to be investigated badly, I'm surprised the issue hasn't yet been pursued! :eek: :huh :headscratch:
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I remember an episode on the History Channel or similar. A WWII pilot mentioned a suprising possible fact about the 51 (may apply to other planes as well). He said if the 51 took a radiator hit. The 51 would only fly for about 45 min and then the engine would freeze. No doubt he could be very much off and may have never experienced 1st hand a radiator coolent hit. His memory from 50+ years ago could be affected as well.
I also remember watching accounts on the 51 having multiple radiator shutoff valves. One of the designers spoke of his experience when designing the 51 radiator with auto-shutoff valves. These valves (didn't say how many) would close if loss of pressure/coolent in a section of the radiator. The idea was in case a projectile (small stone, bullet, etc...) punctured a section of the radiator the plane would still be flyable.
Another thing to keep in mind for overheated engine lockup. My thought is an engine will lock up only after oil loses its viscosity. At various temperatures oil will break down over a given amount of time. The hotter the oil the faster it breaks down. So for example, the current AH2 engine rise model may be accurate to some extent. Meaning, after the engine temp goes into the red zone. The oil is shot and results in extreme friction and heat gain. Another factor in determining engine heat/loss effect is the oil cooler radiator. The oil cooler would aid in cooling an engine as well, but with limited results.
I would like to suggest the following if coolent loss time/engine overheat lock-up is re-modeled:
1. The engine temp. gauge seems to rise the same no matter what the engine throttle is set to. I believe engine temp. rise should be based more on throttle position and maybe even RPM’s.
2. The engine temp. gauge seems to follow a linear heat rise instead of exponential. As an engine gets hotter, heat would radiate off the engine at a higher rate than at lower temp's., thereby, slowing the temp. gauge rise as the engine temp. nears the red zone. This is basic 101 thermodynamics which state heat transfers at a linear rate with regards to delta T (delta T = the difference in temperature between two objects or mass, the higher the temperature difference = higher heat transfer rates).
I suggest the following (for a rough example only) that engine temp. gauge should do the following with the loss of liquid coolant. Note: this is just a guestamate.
Proposed engine temp gauge rise rate with no liquid coolant and at full throttle (degrees C):
From 90 to 100 = 0.5 minutes
From 100 to 110 = 1.25 minutes
From 110 to 120 = 2.5 minutes
From 120 to 130 = 4.0 minutes
Proposed engine temp gauge rise rate with no liquid coolant and engine off (degrees C):
From 130 to 120 = 1 minutes
From 120 to 110 = 3 minutes
From 110 to 100 = 5 minutes
From 100 to 90 = 8 minutes
Please don't take my word for the above suggestions. These are things I would be interested to learn in more detail. My above suggestions may 100% wrong do to oil viscosity breakdown effects. Who knows, the current AH2 coolent loss modeling may be accurate as-is?
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with the 109 it seems that both radiators are modeled for damage - and any ping to the wing, especially around the wing root is a radiator hit. But there is only one actually functioning. . . so basically you have 2 radiators for damage, and either one will kill the whole cooling system.
With the 190, if its in the engine, then there is a high radiator possibility - but in the A5, I find radiator hits to be relatively rare. . .which is one big reason i fly the A5 more now. . . because it seems like every time I up a 109. . . i am crawling home after a few pass' with my engine dying. . .
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with the 109 it seems that both radiators are modeled for damage - and any ping to the wing, especially around the wing root is a radiator hit. But there is only one actually functioning. . . so basically you have 2 radiators for damage, and either one will kill the whole cooling system.
With the 190, if its in the engine, then there is a high radiator possibility - but in the A5, I find radiator hits to be relatively rare. . .which is one big reason i fly the A5 more now. . . because it seems like every time I up a 109. . . i am crawling home after a few pass' with my engine dying. . .
The doras rad is in front of the engine and behind the prop, still don't buy the modelling, flying a dora almost exclusively for the last few years it feels more like the modelling is returning a very high likelyhood of a rad hit but not taking into account were the bullet hits, feels like a cliche of damage modelling.
As others have said it doesn't seem to matter what angle it comes from or distance I've taken rad hits from 1k sprays from my 6 quite frequently, just makes for lazy gameplay and a constant stream of p51s trying to spray you head on hoping for rad hit as soon as they see white smoke its one in the bank and they clear off. How it translates to gameplay is people end up getting random kills from seemingly impossible situations, from my view as an exclusive dora driver when I factor in transit times and the long periods in this game I spend looking for action it just makes it a lot more boring and frustrating.
I'm gotten to the stage were I can predict a rad hit before it even happens. And thats not hard considering 90% of anytime you get hit in game its...a rad hit.
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the A varients rarely radiator hit - and engine hit is usually an oil hit. The dora/152/109s are almost always a radiator hit. . .so simple really - just get in an A5.
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Fw190 A-series use an air-cooled system ie no fluid but oil can get hit.
Odds the enemy killed the air itself is lesser than slim even on a German plane ;)
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the A varients rarely radiator hit - and engine hit is usually an oil hit. The dora/152/109s are almost always a radiator hit. . .so simple really - just get in an A5.
2 completly different aircraft A5 is nowhere near as good as a dora.
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2 completly different aircraft A5 is nowhere near as good as a dora.
The A5 rocks just as much as the dora. Turns good enough to surprise the ponies, jugs, climbs just as good as the dora, awesome steady in the 50mph vertical reversal.
The only weakness its a very late '42 bird, not a late '44 one. They can run "away" from you... whats actually very sad.
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The A5 rocks just as much as the dora. Turns good enough to surprise the ponies, jugs, climbs just as good as the dora, awesome steady in the 50mph vertical reversal.
The only weakness its a very late '42 bird, not a late '44 one. They can run "away" from you... whats actually very sad.
If you look at as an overall energy picture I can take on a couple of planes or even having my present fight interrupted and still escape said situation in a dora. It is true the very fact that your up against generally more powerful planes that the A5 falls short. I agree with the running away part, but even spits will try and run away once you have their 6 against quick planes like ponys I will always build an E advantage I can chase them down quickly with.
In the vertical and top end acceleration the a5 also falls short of the dora a lot of my fighting is pointing the nose up and maxing out the aircraft in vertical spirals using primarily roll the a5 just doesn't seem to lend itself well to this type of energy fighting.
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I thought the underbelly radiator on a P-51 was the aftercooler for the forced induction?
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If you look at as an overall energy picture I can take on a couple of planes or even having my present fight interrupted and still escape said situation in a dora. It is true the very fact that your up against generally more powerful planes that the A5 falls short. I agree with the running away part, but even spits will try and run away once you have their 6 against quick planes like ponys I will always build an E advantage I can chase them down quickly with.
In the vertical and top end acceleration the a5 also falls short of the dora a lot of my fighting is pointing the nose up and maxing out the aircraft in vertical spirals using primarily roll the a5 just doesn't seem to lend itself well to this type of energy fighting.
Scissor fight the A5, that's where she truly shines. Even with one aeileron and one elevator missing she can still out-scissor alot of the other aircraft, amazing roll rate on that plane. I love it to death.
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wtb Air Cooled 109 variant.
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Scissor fight the A5, that's where she truly shines. Even with one aeileron and one elevator missing she can still out-scissor alot of the other aircraft, amazing roll rate on that plane. I love it to death.
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wtb Air Cooled 109 variant.
Flat scissors in a 190 are a last ditch desperation move from my experience, in general flat scissors are one of the least useful manveours in any plane and usually require that the guy on your 6 is an idiot to be successful or as an exploit for the fact your connected to the internet.
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Scissor fight the A5, that's where she truly shines. Even with one aeileron and one elevator missing she can still out-scissor alot of the other aircraft, amazing roll rate on that plane. I love it to death.
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wtb Air Cooled 109 variant.
The A5 scissors... well... it can do it, but only in very limited conditions.
One situation is the high speed scissors, but only a very few opponents enters it.
Another one is the nose-up vertical reverse overshoot. But again, once i lose the open-flaps position (aka ging nose down) im dead, instantly, to anything.
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in general flat scissors are one of the least useful manveours in any plane and usually require that the guy on your 6 is an idiot to be successful
Mostly agree with you. The guy tailing you doesn't have to be an "idiot" for it to work, just overconfident or not paying attention. It's still a desperation move.
- oldman
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if you get the con off sync, you can delay enough for a pal to clear you. The 190 is a fantastic group plane. . .not as hot solo.
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if you get the con off sync, you can delay enough for a pal to clear you. The 190 is a fantastic group plane. . .not as hot solo.
I'd disagree on both points, the usual way a person gets shot down during evasives is when he straightens out to get speed to maneuver back, or gets so slow from evasive manoeuvring that he presents a good guns solution.
On the other hand usually when you want a con cleared off you its best to have some distance between you and the con and to fly relatively straight for your faster team mate to pick him off. In a situation were your 'wingman' is performing evasive maneuvers with a con on his tail a lot of the time you will kill the con just after he has killed your wingman viewed as a chain, your wingman clearing you will almost always only get to shoot the con on your 6 after he has taken a shot on you, for the reasons explained in my first paragraph. There are of course exceptions.
I do just fine in a 190d by myself without any help, a lot of the situations were I string a good kill run together 10+ is on my own. You can find friendly aircraft more maneuverable in the turn can swipe in and pinch the kill your setting up, things always take longer in a 190.
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Perv, I suspect (not really, I know) that you are good enough to take any plane and do well in it - your preference is based on the way you can press an advantage in a Dora whereas in other planes your opponent has to choose to stay (I suspect).
What i meant to say is that the 190 is fantastic at energy cooperation and performs exceptionally well in situations where you work with one or more to achieve energy superiority (without coming in with a massive alt advantage and basically picking which is what you see a lot of 51 pilots do). When under an opponent, the 109 is a far better (imho) plane to be in because it generates e faster and converts that e into altitude more efficiently while the 190 takes more time to generate e and alt (2 seconds faster for the k4 to 250 then then dora, turns tighter, climbs faster at all alts - and maby its just me but those 2 seconds 'feel' like a lot more). Which is why I (and I don't think I am alone) for smaller group stuff or situations where I am at an e disadvantage (which is almost always) the 109 is a much better plane in every respect. That aside, the A5 turns a lot tighter and accelerates almost as fast - and climbs better between 3 and 9k - add to that the slightly better roll rate, smaller target, lack of a radiator, gentler stall, and slightly better rudder authority - the A5 is a fantastic knife fighter and very well suited for the kind of fighting we see in AH. All it lacks in that blitzing top speed (but its not crippling).
In FSO and scenarios 190s are just much better then the 109s where the roll rate (more cons, more roll shows its strength), gun package, dive performance/high speed maneuverability (becomes more apparent as you go up) and views (again, more cons, more it shows) all really show off the reason the 190 is the better fighter in most respects.
The scissor and general roll related ACM (in various yoyos, in BRDs. and so on) is something I use a lot to throw opponents off sync and it works great for giving a friendly enough time to get down an clear me. The high speed flat scissor is especially good in the 190 since you can basically keep the opponent looking at you, while also moving in the same direction - and since you are looking back, you can time the final unload before you execute the overshoot or the 'you follow you die too' evasive. But again, this only shows where you have someone sandwiching the opponent - and most will take a few shots and break - which means you live.
the radiator bug, which I really do consider a bug because it happens so often it could not be anything but. . .is a major source of frustration for 109 and dora/152 pilots - which is why i mentioned the A5 as my workaround - I still feel most comfortable in the k4 though but will not start my night in it because it gets me frustrated (really, its only the radiator crap, the tater is a joy) and that is not how I like to start a session.
anyway, my 2 cents.