Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: Slate on February 22, 2012, 10:43:10 AM
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Need input from P-38 drivers on how to avoid compressing the thing and is there anyway to come out of it once the controls lock?
I haven't been successful. Once it starts shaking I'm a Lawndart. :uhoh
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Throttle, rudder, trim the nose up
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Once it starts shaking I throttle back and ride the shake. If you go too far and your controls.start to lock up cut the throttle and rudder over to get it side slipping. It will.slow pretty quick that way and you can get control back. If you want you can add the "trim nose up" button to your stick so that you can trim your nose up to try and flatten out your dive.
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Thanks guys didn't think about trim nose up. :aok
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You can tell whose a P-38 pilot by looking if their K button on their keyboard is worn down.
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You can tell whose a P-38 pilot by looking if their K button on their keyboard is worn down.
This test, however, can give a false positive for P-38itis if you are looking at a 109 dweeb's keyboard. :D
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All of the above and avoid extreme high angle dives. Sometimes it can be really difficult to slip-slide your way slower if diving almost straight down and it can lawndart on you. It IS a very heavy (being a twin) and at the same time an aerodynamically slick plane so yeah--gravity can be a factor on that. Heavy stuff without drag is gonna want to go down fast!
If you were wondering, the recovery flap (often confused with a dive brake--which it's not) on the P-38L will only help keep you under control for a few more MPH than say the J that isn't equipped with it. Be advised you can still lock up in the L even with the flap deployed. Just have to pay attention to your speed and angle. Be ready for the compression because it's gonna happen if you're not on top of it. And the higher up you are when you begin your dive the faster that's gonna happen.
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Once it starts shaking I throttle back and ride the shake. If you go too far and your controls.start to lock up cut the throttle and rudder over to get it side slipping. It will.slow pretty quick that way and you can get control back. If you want you can add the "trim nose up" button to your stick so that you can trim your nose up to try and flatten out your dive.
^ This
Though, once you get a feel for it you can dive full WEP and surprise the crap out of a lot of pilots who are used to diving out of trouble. With it's good acceleration and superior momentum a 38 can dive well in the hands of a skilled driver. Add to that it's rudder, elevator and boosted ailerons in the L you often have better control authority than your opponants at those speeds.
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Need input from P-38 drivers on how to avoid compressing the thing and is there anyway to come out of it once the controls lock?
I haven't been successful. Once it starts shaking I'm a Lawndart. :uhoh
Turn off combat trim. "Combat trim" is actually a miss-pronunciation of the Japanese word "Kamikaze".
Seriously, P-38 is one of the few planes that almost need no trim. Only the elevator team has some use and you can operate it manually. What happens in a dive is that due to the increase of the speed, CT keeps trimming "nose down". When you lock up, the trim is full forward, fighting against your pullout attempts.
Many players use it as a "reset" button - turn on for a second to get a rough neutral trim and then turn off again and do fine adjustments yourself. Repeat when your condition requires significant amount of fiddling with the trim tabs.
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Great info all....it's the only plane I've had trouble with. Those that fly it really have to fly it. And those that are good in it have surprised me.
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If you notice the good 38 guys stay above 10k and only come down for a good shot, then zoom back up. ^__^
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More than any thing, I find throttle and angle control PRE-dive is more important than in the dive. If you setup right you should be hitting your maximum speed as you zoom past the target and begin your climb out. If you're compressing while diving in you're diving too early or too steep, both of which will make it extremely easy to avoid the shot, especially if the other pilot is at all aware of his speed and the rate you're closing at.
Try doing a High Yoyo with no throttle to enter into your dive with and wing over at the apex, then add throttle as needed to accelerate through your target. Another trick is to kick out your maneuvering flaps (1 notch of flaps) prior to entering the dive, this will slow your acceleration for a bit and help.
Finally, like everyone else said, throttle back, trim up and full rudder if you need it, it'll pull out pretty quickly. In the L model you can do a Shift-C for dive brakes, but I don't like those very much and don't think they work that well personally.
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In the L model you can do a Shift-C for dive brakes, but I don't like those very much and don't think they work that well personally.
The dive flaps on the P-38L work as intended and will aid in recovery from a high speed dive. However, it will not work if your intention is to use them to slow you down as the dive flaps aren't air brakes.
ack-ack
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If you notice the good 38 guys stay above 10k and only come down for a good shot, then zoom back up. ^__^
While not a good 38 pilot, I disagree. Much more fun bending them down on the deck :aok
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The dive flaps on the P-38L work as intended and will aid in recovery from a high speed dive. However, it will not work if your intention is to use them to slow you down as the dive flaps aren't air brakes.
ack-ack
i often use them as air break for a hard breaking turn works well
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If you notice the good 38 guys stay above 10k and only come down for a good shot, then zoom back up. ^__^
You are obviously noticing what you want to notice(which is not reality).. Most guys who fly 38's full time do so because of the challenge and don't subscribe to the typical boom-zoom-run-rinse-repeat theory.. If you see guys do that in 38's, they are doing it in every other ride as well and the 38 is NOT their main plane.. They primarily use it as a bomb truck and then attempt their hand at dog fighting when all their bombs and rockets miss only to compress and crash into the ground.. These are the same people who fly with stall limiter on while not even knowing it exists and have no idea what trim actually does..
Spend some time watching guys like Shuffler or Corky.. They never go much beyond 5 or 6k.. Hell, our entire squad never goes much higher than 5 or 6 k!!! And whether they say they are good or not, they are in fact good down on the deck in the 38.. So yeah, you don't really know what you're talking about.. Just so you know... :D
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i often use them as air break for a hard breaking turn works well
It actually doesn't as the dive flaps do not generate enough drag to slow you down, so they cannot be used as an air break. However, at high speeds the dive flaps can aid in a turn as the lift generated by the dive flaps helps bring the nose around in the turn and retracted as soon as you past the apex of the turn.
ack-ack
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I am so confused first they dont create enough drag to brake you but then they apparently make enough lift to turn your nose noticeably. You need drag to create lift so...
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If you compress in a 38 your doing something wrong. :)
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I am so confused first they dont create enough drag to brake you but then they apparently make enough lift to turn your nose noticeably. You need drag to create lift so...
The dive flaps weren't designed to create drag and slow the plane down like dive brakes, the dive flaps would change the air flow that basically altered the center of pressure distribution to help counter the nose tuck encountered when the P-38 entered into a compressability state. There is a more technical description but in basic layman terms, that's what the dive flaps did.
As you can see from the design, it would be very inefficient in slowing down the P-38.
(http://www.kazoku.org/xp-38n/articles/p38diveflaps.gif)
What the dive flaps look like when deployed.
(http://www.kazoku.org/xp-38n/articles/diveflap.jpg)
The loss of energy/speed described by pilots was caused by the nose pitching up when the flaps were deployed, not by the drag caused by the flaps themselves.
ack-ack
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Nice info ackie. :aok
So the actual problem in P38 was that as the main plane compressed there was simply not enough elevator authority to bring the nose back up, i.e. the same as in P47? So the compression problem was different to that of e.g. 109 which suffered from excessively heavy controls or you could say that 109 had not a "compression" problem but just suffered from heavy controls. Or did the P38 suffer also from this in high speed dive?
-C+
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If you notice the good 38 guys stay above 10k and only come down for a good shot, then zoom back up. ^__^
That would explain why my squaddies all crawl around at low alt then :D
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When I compress in a 38, I stop drinking and go to bed...
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Nice info ackie. :aok
So the actual problem in P38 was that as the main plane compressed there was simply not enough elevator authority to bring the nose back up, i.e. the same as in P47? So the compression problem was different to that of e.g. 109 which suffered from excessively heavy controls or you could say that 109 had not a "compression" problem but just suffered from heavy controls. Or did the P38 suffer also from this in high speed dive?
-C+
The P38s specific problem were the shockwaves that formed on the top fore of the wing due to it's thick foil profile. The result was basically positive pressure on the TOP fore of the wing and negative pressure on the top aft causing the "nose tuck". This also disturbed airflow to the rear surfaces. The dive flaps were to help change the airflow to generate some lift at the fore of the wing. So yes it was different from the 109's problem. From what I understand compression was a generic term used to describe similar high speed problems whos causes weren't fully understood at the time.
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The P38s specific problem were the shockwaves that formed on the top fore of the wing due to it's thick foil profile. The result was basically positive pressure on the TOP fore of the wing and negative pressure on the top aft causing the "nose tuck". This also disturbed airflow to the rear surfaces. The dive flaps were to help change the airflow to generate some lift at the fore of the wing. So yes it was different from the 109's problem. From what I understand compression was a generic term used to describe similar high speed problems whos causes weren't fully understood at the time.
How's the rock star life? Getting bored of touring, free drinks and loose groupies yet?
ack-ack
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How's the rock star life? Getting bored of touring, free drinks and loose groupies yet?
ack-ack
Not yet!!! Getting ready to play out tonight. But we gotta keep the groupie thing on the down-low...My g/f wouldn't like that :lol
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I try to cut throttle and use the rudder to side "crab" during a dive to keep the speed just about 400 IAS. I do not usually use the trim tab because with enough altitude I can pull out of the dive without it. If I am too low I just become a yard decoration. But then again I kinda suck at flying a 38 so...
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I prefer trimming nose down in a dive. Helps me fly faster and auger harder, which is important for part distribution.
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When I compress in a 38, I stop drinking and go to bed...
< :aok I have a problem with drinking and ending up @ 49k. lol
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If you compress in a 38 your doing something wrong. :)
:rolleyes:
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Once it starts shaking I throttle back and ride the shake. If you go too far and your controls.start to lock up cut the throttle and rudder over to get it side slipping. It will.slow pretty quick that way and you can get control back. If you want you can add the "trim nose up" button to your stick so that you can trim your nose up to try and flatten out your dive.
This is what I did. I rarely used flaps in AH. I abused the X-45/52 throttles as I was always on them in fights.