Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Wishlist => Topic started by: DMVIAGRA on February 22, 2012, 06:39:27 PM
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http://www.historyofwar.org/articles/weapons_hawker_sea_hurricane_IIC.html
The Sea Hurricane Mk IIC was the final major version of the aircraft to be produced in Britain, and was a conversion of the standard Hurricane Mk II, with the Rolls-Royce Merlin XX engine and armed with four 20mm cannon. The more powerful aircraft restored some of the aircraft's speed, bringing its top speed back over 300mph. Hawkers made the first conversion on May 1942, and conversion kits became available from mid-1942. Once against General Aircraft was responsible for most of the conversions, producing 81 aircraft. The first deliveries were made to the Mediterranean Fleet in December 1942, at about the same time as the Seafire was beginning to replace the Sea Hurricane. The Mk IIC was also based at Malta from 1943. It was the last version of the Sea Hurricane to be used in any significant numbers, and flew protective air patrols and rocket-armed anti-submarine patrols throughout 1943 and 1944.
Engine: Rolls Royce Merlin XX
Power: 1,260hp
Crew: 1
Wing span: 40ft
Length: 32ft 2.25in
Height: 13ft 1in
Normal Loaded Weight: 7,618lb
Max Speed: 301mph at 15,000ft; 336mph at 16,600ft
Cruising Speed:
Service Ceiling: 35,600ft
Range: 452 miles with two 44 gallon drop tanks, 1,062 miles with two 90 gallon drop tanks
Armament: Four 20mm cannon
Bomb-load: two 250lb bombs (early), two 500lb bombs (later) or two 44 imperial gallon fuel tanks
Naval Equipment: Naval Radio, A-frame arrestor hook, catapult spools
http://www.fleetairarmarchive.net/aircraft/seahurricane.htm
Fleet Air Arm history
Hawker Sea Hurricane
Total FAA 1939-1945 443
Total Sea Hurricane Ia 50
Total Sea Hurricane Ib 290
Total Sea Hurricane II 42
Total Sea Hurricane IIc 60
First delivered to RN: Feb 1941
First squadron 1939-1945: 760 sqdn 1941, 880 sqdn 1941
Operational squadron: 880 sqdn 1941
Last served with RN 1945 - East Kirby dump 1956/57 (NF670).
(http://i28.tinypic.com/1692b8h.jpg)
Actual Photo
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109T
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109T
+1
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109T
never saw service...
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Not on an aircraft carrier, but IIRC, the first B-17 to be shot down over europe was shot down by a 109T.
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as long as its perked
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Why? Its just a 109E with an arestor hook and a strengthed fuselage.
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If the Bf109T were added I doubt it would be available on the carriers as it never served on a carrier. The late war Japanese strike aircraft B7A2 is another example of a carrier aircraft that would not be carrier enabled as it never flew off of a carrier.
That being the case, what does the Bf109T bring to the game?
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+1
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Why? Its just a 109E with an arestor hook and a strengthed fuselage.
It was prototype and not in combat service or squadron strength, if we add the 109T then I can think of 200 prototypes that would be requested that didn't see service or shoot anyone down.
basically fly a 109E if you want the T.
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109T-2's were operated in norway..... just sayin'
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109T-2's were operated in norway..... just sayin'
Yes, off of land bases.
Fly a Bf109E-4 and pretend it has an hook. (Did the Bf109Ts ever actually fly in combat with the carrier gear?)
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germany had no aircraft carriers.
semp
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Sadly this thread deserves multiple face palms.
First the 'actual picture' is not a Sea Hurricane IIc. No cannons on that one. Most likely a Sea Hurri IB
109T was De-navalized removing the carrier gear and finished out its brief life in the skies of Norway where in fact one was involved in the shooting down of an RAF flown B17C. As has been mentioned you are talking about a modified 109E. They didn't serve on a German carrier as it never made it into service.
If you want a Sea Hurricane, the IB would be the most appropriate. Otherwise this is just a wish for a 4 cannon Hurri off a carrier.
If you want another 109E then I'd suggest asking for the 109E7 with the increased engine performance and DT carrying capability. At least it would serve some purpose for events
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Beat me to it Guppy!
Although I will add: Most Sea Hurricanes were conversions on already-war-weary airframes. Many had de-rated engines with reduced output. Some even had the negative G cutoff, if I recall. It would be, in essence, a slightly less manuverable, slightly more heavy, Hurr1, but with an arrestor hook.
Don't get me wrong I think it might have a place for limited scenario use, etc....
I just think folks wish for this like they wish for a P-51A, because they think it'll have massive HO-power (4x hizzos), when really it wouldn't.
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Beat me to it Guppy!
Although I will add: Most Sea Hurricanes were conversions on already-war-weary airframes. Many had de-rated engines with reduced output. Some even had the negative G cutoff, if I recall. It would be, in essence, a slightly less manuverable, slightly more heavy, Hurr1, but with an arrestor hook.
Don't get me wrong I think it might have a place for limited scenario use, etc....
I just think folks wish for this like they wish for a P-51A, because they think it'll have massive HO-power (4x hizzos), when really it wouldn't.
The SeaHurricane has a pretty nice war record, one of the reasons I posted about it is if HTC is going to upgrade the hurricane anytime soon (graphic wise) by adding the IIB and SeaHurri it would certainly fill out the set list for the aircraft.
I recall a few kills were over Malta, some even flew during D-day so it goes to show the SeaHurri were still flying late in the war. I've always been interesting in seeing an Indian Ocean Raid Scenario, basically its Albacores, Hurris and Fulmars against the standard early war Japanese Lineup.
Of course we don't have the albacore or Fulmar's, still its one of those forgotten "skirmishes" people dont know about.
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I thought the Bf109T-2 had longer wings and also spoilers. That'd be fun to fly.
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I want the SeaHurri! :aok+1
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firstly all the people talking about 109's in this Sea Hurricane thread jog on and make your own wish. :old:
secondly +1 to the sea hurricane, will be cool to have a re-model too!
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firstly all the people talking about 109's in this Sea Hurricane thread jog on and make your own wish. :old:
secondly +1 to the sea hurricane, will be cool to have a re-model too!
Agreed~I refrained from lobbying for the vastly more relevant P-47D-22/23 in this seahurri thread, so can you :D
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Yes you're right, it's a disgraceful. :old:
I found these pictures of a *cough* Sea Hurricane on a modelling site:
(http://i247.photobucket.com/albums/gg151/Lud_13/Bf%20109T-2%201-32/DSCF0003_2.jpg)
(http://i247.photobucket.com/albums/gg151/Lud_13/Bf%20109T-2%201-32/DSCF0001.jpg)
(http://i247.photobucket.com/albums/gg151/Lud_13/Bf%20109T-2%201-32/DSCF0007.jpg)
(http://i247.photobucket.com/albums/gg151/Lud_13/Bf%20109T-2%201-32/DSCF0003-1.jpg)
The leading egde slats were also longer too. Spoilers might put an end to all that tiresome ACM as well, you could just Top Gun anyone on your six with one button press :banana:
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Yes you're right, it's a disgraceful. :old:
I found these pictures of a *cough* Sea Hurricane on a modelling site:
The leading egde slats were also longer too. Spoilers might put an end to all that tiresome ACM as well, you could just Top Gun anyone on your six with one button press :banana:
You're stealing my thread. Thanks.
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Yes I'm sorry, it got sidetracked into obscure carrier aircraft.
Carry on!
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Yes I'm sorry, it got sidetracked into obscure carrier aircraft.
Carry on!
It's ok, haha. Continue discussion.
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Not interested in voting on the Sea Cane IIC but SeaCane IIB I would certainly be interested in, 12 browning 303s would be more fun ;)
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Not interested in voting on the Sea Cane IIC but SeaCane IIB I would certainly be interested in, 12 browning 303s would be more fun ;)
12x 303s? lol Why not let players choose load out options? Butcher could bb his opponents and everyone else could use 20mms. :aok
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12x 303s? lol Why not let players choose load out options? Butcher could bb his opponents and everyone else could use 20mms. :aok
Long as the ENY value is correct, I say go for it :D
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Find sources for the IIB is difficult.
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Actually, I think this thread would be more appropriately entitled Sea Hurricane IC - they took a Hurri I frame, gave the IIc 4 cannon wing and a Merlin XX. It is a valid wish - they made over 250 of these models between early 42 and summer 43 and they saw plenty of service.
One thing I also noted from looking around was that these were equipped with 8 rockets and did anti-submarine patrols as well.
http://plane-crazy.purplecloud.net/Aircraft/WW2-Planes/Hurricane/Pages/hurricane.htm (http://plane-crazy.purplecloud.net/Aircraft/WW2-Planes/Hurricane/Pages/hurricane.htm)
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Find sources for the IIB is difficult.
I actually posted the source twice for IIB and IIC carrier and land versions.
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Actually, I think this thread would be more appropriately entitled Sea Hurricane IC - they took a Hurri I frame, gave the IIc 4 cannon wing and a Merlin XX. It is a valid wish - they made over 250 of these models between early 42 and summer 43 and they saw plenty of service.
One thing I also noted from looking around was that these were equipped with 8 rockets and did anti-submarine patrols as well.
http://plane-crazy.purplecloud.net/Aircraft/WW2-Planes/Hurricane/Pages/hurricane.htm (http://plane-crazy.purplecloud.net/Aircraft/WW2-Planes/Hurricane/Pages/hurricane.htm)
Plenty of service where? If you want a Sea Hurri, the 8 or 12 MG version would be the one that actually participated in anything. Operation Torch comes to mind. The Sea Hurri IIc with rockets would never have been involved with air to air. Chugging around going that slow, and that heavy might work for a sub hunter, but not one that had to deal with other aircraft.
Fly the Tiffie if you want 4 cannon and rockets. Too many other birds that would fill gaps that should be done before this ever is considered.
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Yes you're right, it's a disgraceful. :old:
I found these pictures of a *cough* Sea Hurricane on a modelling site:
(http://i247.photobucket.com/albums/gg151/Lud_13/Bf%20109T-2%201-32/DSCF0003_2.jpg)
(http://i247.photobucket.com/albums/gg151/Lud_13/Bf%20109T-2%201-32/DSCF0001.jpg)
(http://i247.photobucket.com/albums/gg151/Lud_13/Bf%20109T-2%201-32/DSCF0007.jpg)
(http://i247.photobucket.com/albums/gg151/Lud_13/Bf%20109T-2%201-32/DSCF0003-1.jpg)
The leading egde slats were also longer too. Spoilers might put an end to all that tiresome ACM as well, you could just Top Gun anyone on your six with one button press :banana:
JG5 had those :D 80 (T1 and T2) I believe saw service around Norway :D
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The Sea Huricane we really need for the SEA but as has been said it would be the machine gun varients that would make sense to model. We would still have the Hurricane IIC im sure...so if you wanted to have cannons roll one of those instead.
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Being as a large number of Sea Hurricanes were conversions from land based models, it would not seem to be much of a stretch (or too much work) to drop an arrester hook on a IIc and enable it on CVs.
+1
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It's not about "stretches"... It's about what they did.
They DID use MG-armed hurricane airframes... Then they DID switch to Wildcats/Hellcats.
They did NOT go to 4x20mm hurricane airframes in between.
In short, it's a cry for a ho/dweeb/llama ride off the carrier. Man up, learn to shoot with MGs, and life will be happier for you.
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They did NOT go to 4x20mm hurricane airframes in between.
So I guess this is NOT a picture of a 4 x 20mm armed Sea Hurricane (with 4 rockets) preparing to launch on anti-sub patrol from the HMS Vindex...
(http://img407.imageshack.us/img407/6769/seahurrirockets.jpg)
and this is NOT a picture of a 4 cannon armed Sea Hurri taking off...
(http://img534.imageshack.us/img534/5109/825squadronseahurricane.jpg)
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So I guess this is NOT a picture of a 4 x 20mm armed Sea Hurricane (with 4 rockets) preparing to launch on anti-sub patrol from the HMS Vindex...
(http://img407.imageshack.us/img407/6769/seahurrirockets.jpg)
Launch? You mean land? Look at the bullet holes.
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Launch? You mean land? Look at the bullet holes.
Hmmm... those do appear to be bullet holes (look at the one in the prop). Patch 'em up and fly 'em again I guess.
Well, I guess that shows the 4x20mm armed Sea Hurri saw action!
I am a bit surprised they would let him land with ord, but maybe the ord isn't so easy to come by at this point in the game.
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Hmmm... those do appear to be bullet holes (look at the one in the prop). Patch 'em up and fly 'em again I guess.
Well, I guess that shows the 4x20mm armed Sea Hurri saw action!
I am a bit surprised they would let him land with ord, but maybe the ord isn't so easy to come by at this point in the game.
I'm not looking at the Sea Cane for a fighter, but something to de-ack a field. The Hurri D is splendid at the job, only takes one burst, don't think they had a Sea Hurri with a 40mm though. I shall begin research!
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So I guess this is NOT a picture of a 4 x 20mm armed Sea Hurricane (with 4 rockets) preparing to launch on anti-sub patrol from the HMS Vindex...
(http://img407.imageshack.us/img407/6769/seahurrirockets.jpg)
and this is NOT a picture of a 4 cannon armed Sea Hurri taking off...
(http://img534.imageshack.us/img534/5109/825squadronseahurricane.jpg)
We've already established that's a prototype. And you can't call that a bullet hole when it's so blurry. I've seen pictures of bullet holes in props up close with crisp photos. That's like 10x too large. They don't seem all that concerned about it either. They seem far more interested on the flight deck in front of them, waiting for a cue to remove the chocks... So yes, takeoff. Not landing. you jettisoned ord before landing, even if you still had it. Better on the bottom of the sea than blowing up in some accident.
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So I guess this is NOT a picture of a 4 x 20mm armed Sea Hurricane (with 4 rockets) preparing to launch on anti-sub patrol from the HMS Vindex...
(http://img407.imageshack.us/img407/6769/seahurrirockets.jpg)
and this is NOT a picture of a 4 cannon armed Sea Hurri taking off...
(http://img534.imageshack.us/img534/5109/825squadronseahurricane.jpg)
Can you scan the image on top any larger? Only thing bugging me is the rockets look like they have dummy warheads. They don't look like either operational warhead used on Brit rockets. I've seen a similar look on Spits testing them. Can't find the comparable image at the moment but will keep looking
The other thing about the bottom pic is it may also be a Hurri Ic not a IIc
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Can you scan the image on top any larger? Only thing bugging me is the rockets look like they have dummy warheads. They don't look like either operational warhead used on Brit rockets. I've seen a similar look on Spits testing them. Can't find the comparable image at the moment but will keep looking
The other thing about the bottom pic is it may also be a Hurri Ic not a IIc
Those warheads are the 25lb models - remember these guys are hunting U-Boats with them, so they need to use a rocket that will put a hole in a steel plate. The early 25lb head models are AP. The RP3 (60 lb head) was a later model that used the same rocket motor and had the bulged head that we see on our rockets in AH.
http://www.wwiiequipment.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=98:airborne-rockets-used-by-the-british-during-wwii&catid=44:gunsrockets&Itemid=60 (http://www.wwiiequipment.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=98:airborne-rockets-used-by-the-british-during-wwii&catid=44:gunsrockets&Itemid=60)
http://books.google.com/books?id=MuGsf0psjvcC&pg=PA420&lpg=PA420&dq=british+25lb+ap+rocket&source=bl&ots=K5VwzeVCbJ&sig=w3e5nLx1LkWZ2Gw2rfJtNpDDKxA&hl=en&sa=X&ei=-GpOT6SGH6P30gHVo_HlAg&ved=0CEAQ6AEwAw#v=onepage&q=british%2025lb%20ap%20rocket&f=false (http://books.google.com/books?id=MuGsf0psjvcC&pg=PA420&lpg=PA420&dq=british+25lb+ap+rocket&source=bl&ots=K5VwzeVCbJ&sig=w3e5nLx1LkWZ2Gw2rfJtNpDDKxA&hl=en&sa=X&ei=-GpOT6SGH6P30gHVo_HlAg&ved=0CEAQ6AEwAw#v=onepage&q=british%2025lb%20ap%20rocket&f=false)
http://uboat.net/allies/technical/rockets.htm (http://uboat.net/allies/technical/rockets.htm)
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Those warheads are the 25lb models - remember these guys are hunting U-Boats with them, so they need to use a rocket that will put a hole in a steel plate. The early 25lb head models are AP. The RP3 (60 lb head) was a later model that used the same rocket motor and had the bulged head that we see on our rockets in AH.
http://www.wwiiequipment.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=98:airborne-rockets-used-by-the-british-during-wwii&catid=44:gunsrockets&Itemid=60 (http://www.wwiiequipment.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=98:airborne-rockets-used-by-the-british-during-wwii&catid=44:gunsrockets&Itemid=60)
http://uboat.net/allies/technical/rockets.htm (http://uboat.net/allies/technical/rockets.htm)
Not my question. I get the difference between 25 and 60. My point was the heads look like practice dummy warheads not 25 pound warheads. That is why I was wondering if there was a clearer picture.
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I've got a source for pics on the 25lb practice heads - I'll post the pics when I get them (am waiting for the website to confirm my reg).
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25lb 3" Warheads -
(http://img827.imageshack.us/img827/7720/3inwheads.jpg)
The top one is the AP round, and the bottom is the concrete practice round. I think you are right that the Hurricane on the flight deck with the 4 rockets has practice heads.
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I think that's the case. The front end has that same shape as the concrete practice head. I've got a shot somewhere in all these books of the same on a Seafire but can't find it! I'll keep looking.
Thanks for posting that.
I think we can agree that the 4 cannon Sea Hurri that actually saw combat was the Ic. Apparently couldn't top 295MPH but had some kills during Operation Torch. As for rocket Hurri's in a combat zone, we are really talking about the Hurri IV with 4 rockets, sighting 303s and a DT. I' not sure what appears to be testing and use on an Escort carrier sub hunting away from land would be justification in my mind to adding it to AH because of how it would be used in game play. We're still talking about cannons and rockets off a carrier to kill a field faster.
I still think a MG Sea Hurri would be a better addition for events use.
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Sea Hurricane MkIB
(http://www.historyofwar.org/Pictures/sea_hurricane1.jpg)
The Hawker Sea Hurricane Mk IB was the first version of the aircraft to be designed for use of aircraft carriers, and was equipped with an arrester hook as well as the catapult spools and naval radio of the Mk IA. The first Hurricane to be equipped with an arrestor hook was delivered to Farnborough in March 1941 and underwent trials while work focused on the catapult-launched Mk IA. A conversion order was then placed for around 300 Mk IBs, with most of the work to be carried out by General Aircraft Ltd. Most of these aircraft used the Merlin III engine and the eight-gun wing, and were sometimes known as the Hooked Hurricane. In November 1941 twenty-five Hurricane IIA Series 2 aircraft were converted to the same standard, keeping the Mk IB designation, but also being known as the Hooked Hurricane II.
The Sea Hurricane Mk IB was the first high performance aircraft to enter Fleet Air Arm service in significant numbers (the Grumman Martlet also appeared at about the same time, but in small numbers). The Sea Hurricane did have one big flaw as a carrier aircraft - it didn't have folding wings, and so on smaller carriers had to be stored on deck. This reduced the number of aircraft that could be carried, and also shortened the operational life of each aircraft as expose to sea water damaged the airframe. Despite these flaws the Sea Hurricane Mk IB was used in large numbers, equipping 32 Fleet Air Arm squadrons.
The Mk IB entered service in October 1941, operating from converted merchant ships - the MAC-ships. These ships had a small through-flight deck, and could carry a small number of fighters and anti-submarine aircraft - often the Sea Hurricane and Fairey Swordfish.
The first Arctic convoy to be accompanied by an escort carrier was PQ18, the first convoy after the disastrous PQ17. PQ18 was escorted by the US-built escort carrier HMS Avenger, which carried three Swordfish from 825 Squadron and twelve Sea Hurricanes from 802 and 883 Squadrons - six assembled on deck and six dismantled and stored below deck as replacements. The convoy also included the CAM-ship Empire Morn and her Sea Hurricane Mk IA, a cruiser, two destroyers, two anti-aircraft vessels, four corvettes, two anti-submarine trawlers, three minesweepers and two submarines. On the outwards journey the Sea Hurricanes shot down five enemy aircraft and damaged seventeen, in return for four losses. These were replaced with five aircraft from below decks, before the carrier transferred to the home-bound convoy QP14, which contained the survivors from PQ17.
The Sea Hurricane Mk IB and Mk IC played an important role in the defence of the August 1942 Malta convoy (Operational Pedestal). The convoy was escorted by four aircraft carriers with Indomitable (800 Squadron), Eagle (801 Squadron) and Victorious (885 Squadron) carrying 43 Sea Hurricanes between them. There were also sixteen Fairey Fulmars and nine Grumman Mantlets. The convoy began badly with the loss of HMS Eagle, along with sixteen of her Hurricanes - the only four to escape were on Combat Air Patrol (CAP) duty over the convoy. Between 10-15 August the convoy came under attack by up to 500 German and Italian aircraft. 39 enemy aircraft were claimed shot down at a cost of eight naval fighters lost. Only five of the convoy's fourteen merchant ships reached Malta, but the supplies they carried played a crucial role in allowing the island to withstand the Axis siege. The fighting around the Pedestal convoy did demonstrate one increasing problem for the Sea Hurricane - although it had been a high performance fighter when introduced, it was already being outpaced by the Junkers Ju 88, and the Fleet Air Arm would soon need a faster interceptor.
Escort Carrier fighter
Engine: Rolls Royce Merlin III
Power: 1,030hp
Crew: 1
Wing span: 40ft
Length: 31ft 4in
Height: 12ft 11.5in
Normal Loaded Weight: 7,410lb
Max Speed: 317mph at 15,000ft
Cruising Speed:
Time to 20,000ft: 11 minutes
Service Ceiling: 34,200ft
Range: 505 miles
Armament: Eight 0.303in Browning machine guns
Bomb-load: none
Naval equipment: Naval radio set, A-frame arrestor hook, catapult spools
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Sea Hurricane MkIC
(http://i1190.photobucket.com/albums/z460/queenslander2/SeaHurriMkIC.jpg)
The Hawker Sea Hurricane Mk IC was similar to the Mk IB, but was armed with four 20mm cannon in place of the eight .303in machine guns of the earlier aircraft. The Mk IC was produced by fitting Hurricane IIC wings onto late-series Hurricane I fuselages, converted to carry the arrestor hook and catapult spools needed for naval operations. The extra weight of the cannon wings had a surprisingly dramatic impact on the top speed of the aircraft, dropping it below 300mph, but the extra firepower was invaluable.
The Sea Hurricane Mk IC entered service in January 1942 with No.811 Squadron, and was later used by Nos.801, 802, 803, 880, 883 and 885 Squadrons. Alongside the Mk IB it took part in the defence of Arctic Convoy PQ18, with aircraft from Nos. 802 and 882 Squadrons operating on HMS Avenger. Four Sea Hurricanes were lost during the battles around the convoy, although three of the pilots were rescued, and five enemy aircraft shot down, demonstrating the value of the Sea Hurricane. Although its lower speed made it difficult for the Mk IC to catch the Ju 88, the firepower from the four cannon made a kill far more likely when combat did occur, while many encounters were with older, slower German aircraft.
Fleet Carrier fighter
Engine: Rolls Royce Merlin III
Power: 1,030hp
Crew: 1
Wing span: 40ft
Length: 31ft 4in
Height: 12ft 11.5in
Normal Loaded Weight: 7,605lb
Tropical Normal Loaded Weight: 8,210lb
Max Speed: 276mph at 17,400ft
Cruising Speed:
Service Ceiling: 34,200ft
Range: 505 miles
Armament: Four 20mm cannon
Bomb-load: Two 250lb bombs (early), two 500lb bombs (later) or two 44 Imperial gallon drop tanks
Naval Equipment: Naval radio, A-frame arrestor hook and catapult spools
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Sea Hurricane MkIIC/XII
(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_8DAL7gPYBiM/TVISZjHDjgI/AAAAAAAAAvg/xe8sW5qYXJ8/s1600/waspMalta_3.jpg)
The Sea Hurricane Mk IIC was the final major version of the aircraft to be produced in Britain, and was a conversion of the standard Hurricane Mk II, with the Rolls-Royce Merlin XX engine and armed with four 20mm cannon. The more powerful aircraft restored some of the aircraft's speed, bringing its top speed back over 300mph. Hawkers made the first conversion on May 1942, and conversion kits became available from mid-1942. Once against General Aircraft was responsible for most of the conversions, producing 81 aircraft. The first deliveries were made to the Mediterranean Fleet in December 1942, at about the same time as the Seafire was beginning to replace the Sea Hurricane. The Mk IIC was also based at Malta from 1943. It was the last version of the Sea Hurricane to be used in any significant numbers, and flew protective air patrols and rocket-armed anti-submarine patrols throughout 1943 and 1944.
Engine: Rolls Royce Merlin XX
Power: 1,260hp
Crew: 1
Wing span: 40ft
Length: 32ft 2.25in
Height: 13ft 1in
Normal Loaded Weight: 7,618lb
Max Speed: 301mph at 15,000ft; 336mph at 16,600ft
Cruising Speed:
Service Ceiling: 35,600ft
Range: 452 miles with two 44 gallon drop tanks, 1,062 miles with two 90 gallon drop tanks
Armament: Four 20mm cannon
Bomb-load: two 250lb bombs (early), two 500lb bombs (later) or two 44 imperial gallon fuel tanks
Naval Equipment: Naval Radio, A-frame arrestor hook, catapult spools
_____________________________ ____________________________
The Hawker Sea Hurricane Mk XII was a naval version of the Canadian built and Packard Merlin powered Hurricane Mk XII. Different sources give different information about the exact designations used for this aircraft, although the most common view is that the Canadians designated them all as Mk XIIAs, while the Royal Navy gave the designation Mk XIIB to aircraft with the twelve gun wing and XIIC to those with four cannons.
The Sea Hurricane Mk XII first made its mark during Operation Torch, when some were operated by the Royal Navy in American markings. This was done partly to disguise the scale of the British contribution to the operation, and partly to reduce the danger from trigger happy naval gunners, always a threat during major amphibious operations. The Sea Hurricanes were used in action against Vichy French Dewoitines. The Mk XII was later used on escort carriers operating between St. John's Newfoundland and Iceland during 1943-44.
Engine: Packard Merlin 29
Power: 1,300hp
Crew: 1
Wing span: 40ft
Length: 32ft 2.25in
Height: 13ft 1in
Armament: Either twelve .303in guns or four 20mm cannon
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Total Hurricanes and Sea Hurricanes delivered to the FAA 1939-1945: 537
Total: Hurricane I , Ia and Ib: 48
Total: Sea Hurricane Ib: 290
Total Sea Hurricane II: 42
Total Hurricane I/tropical: 60
Total Hurricane IIa and IIb: 47
Total Hurricane FB.IIc: 37
Total Hurricane IV: 1
Total: Unspecified variants: 12
(most probably Hurricane I/Trop)
Various transfers from RAF, including many conversions to Sea Hurricane MkI variants fitted with 1,030hp Rolls Royce Merlin III, Mk II variants with 1,289hp Rolls Royce Merlin XX engine
First to RN 1.1941 W9237, 2.41 W9215 at Yeovilton 3.1941 L1663
First sqdn P3829 to 760 sqdn at Yeovilton 5.1941
First op sqdn: 880 on 15.3.1941 W9219, 804 sqdn in 4.1941 at Yeovilton (W9182), 800 sdqn on 6.1941,
880 sqdn on 6.1941 (P3925), 804 sdqn 6.1941 (L1895) and 759/760 sqdn at Yeovilton (N2352)
Last: 774 sqdn LF630 on 2.1945, 771 sqdn on 1.1945 (LF704). LF630 returned to the the RAF at
BAFO Communication Flight on 6.1945
HAWKER HURRICANE FB.IIc transferred from RAF
Total 28
All to RNDA 23MU 4.44 or RNDA 9.44, then all to 771 sqdn avacadot 5.44 and/or with 772 sdqn till 2-3.45
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Sea Hurricane MkIIC/XII
(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_8DAL7gPYBiM/TVISZjHDjgI/AAAAAAAAAvg/xe8sW5qYXJ8/s1600/waspMalta_3.jpg)
The Sea Hurricane Mk IIC was the final major version of the aircraft to be produced in Britain, and was a conversion of the standard Hurricane Mk II, with the Rolls-Royce Merlin XX engine and armed with four 20mm cannon.
That picture is of Seafires or Spitfires. Not a Hurri in it.
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That picture is of Seafires or Spitfires. Not a Hurri in it.
Look in the back behind the tail where the two guys are sitting. NOT A SEAFIRE.
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Look in the back behind the tail where the two guys are sitting. NOT A SEAFIRE.
Wildcats belonging to the USS Wasp which was transporting Spitfire Vc Trops to Malta. No Hurricanes on that ship.
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never saw service...
Yes it did. It was the first German AC to shot down an B-17.
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Yes it did. It was the first German AC to shot down an B-17.
THANK you :aok
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THANK you :aok
Pay attention :)
RAF B17C,not a USAAF later model up gunned 17. 109E7 a much better option.
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But I couldn't fly it off of a carrier. I've already gotten the point that I'll ferry a 109 or 190 over to the CV NOE before a CV mission starts, and then refuel for CV opps.
I've gotten comments before about a 109 or 190 showing up from a CV about 100miles away from the nearest base.
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Look in the back behind the tail where the two guys are sitting. NOT A SEAFIRE.
That is a four cannon Spitfire with a tropical filter on it.
But I couldn't fly it off of a carrier. I've already gotten the point that I'll ferry a 109 or 190 over to the CV NOE before a CV mission starts, and then refuel for CV opps.
I've gotten comments before about a 109 or 190 showing up from a CV about 100miles away from the nearest base.
Bf109T wouldn't be able to fly off of the carrier either.
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But I couldn't fly it off of a carrier. I've already gotten the point that I'll ferry a 109 or 190 over to the CV NOE before a CV mission starts, and then refuel for CV opps.
I've gotten comments before about a 109 or 190 showing up from a CV about 100miles away from the nearest base.
As Karnak points out. 109T didn't operate from carriers and were De-navalized before going to Norway so no carrier gear.
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109E7 a much better option.
Better in what regard? More historically significant arguably but normal length wings and slats + no spoilers = boring.
I don't really want to get in the middle of all you Hurricane spotters & indeed your expertise is impressive, but zooming out a bit to the level of the game, why incorporate a slightly heavier navalised version of something we already have? If there was a 12 x .303 armed version which was navalised, even if it the 4 outer guns were removed by the crews in some / many / most cases, then I think that would be a lot more fun and distinctive.
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Better in what regard? More historically significant arguably but normal length wings and slats + no spoilers = boring.
I'll admit, I'm quite ignorant when it comes to the accomplishments of British CV groups in WW2 and their impact, but the 109E7 did see a lot of action in both the BoB and in operation Barbarossa, both significant military operations in ww2.
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I'm not arguing against the E-7, if the improved engine and provision for a droptank etc. are the only significant changes to the E-4 then it could be as economical an addition as some of the P-47 variants we got, I'm definitely be in favour of more early war variants.
I'm also not disagreeing with the point that Guppy's driving at, of course he's right. I'm just saying that the 109T would be different and fun, from the flight simulation and combat aspects of the game.
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I'm not arguing against the E-7, if the improved engine and provision for a droptank etc. are the only significant changes to the E-4 then it could be as economical an addition as some of the P-47 variants we got, I'm definitely be in favour of more early war variants.
I'm also not disagreeing with the point that Guppy's driving at, of course he's right. I'm just saying that the 109T would be different and fun, from the flight simulation and combat aspects of the game.
I'm not against the 109T-2 at all, I just think its a much harder sell considering there are other planes with much more relevancy that are missing. That being said, I think the focus should be on more Japanese planes such as the Oscar (ki-43) etc.. which were produced in much greater numbers than either the 109T or the OPs wish.
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jesus!
how many more times have I got to say it !!
thread --- topic --- rails <--- Sea hurricane.
Shida be a gent and start your own discussion.
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Once you've set the late war super-competitive monster plane Wishlist faction aside (which seems to be running out of things to request anyway), that leaves the 'historical significance' faction and the 'not necessarily significant but interesting and entertaining' faction.
I think both should be considered when deciding what to include. But I think it is mute point anyway, given the rate at which new aircraft are included.
Shida be a gent and start your own discussion.
Well sometimes topics wander into related areas and that is probably healthy too. I have made my comments regarding the Sea Hurricanes also. Best of luck with your request.
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+1
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jesus!
how many more times have I got to say it !!
thread --- topic --- rails <--- Sea hurricane.
Shida be a gent and start your own discussion.
Ah hello again Rule 5 paradox :devil
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Bruv119,
One of the general rules of this forum is that there cannot be a thread about a British airplane that does not become a discussion/request for a German airplane.
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i agree with sea hurrie but not the cannoned version i like the 8 303s and if its fuel injected i will have a new low and slow tnb hurrie of death. the mk1 gets annoying when you pull negitive gs but i love the plane. +1 for the sea hurrie we need more naval aircraft period
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personnaly , too slow for carrier ops
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Bruv119,
One of the general rules of this forum is that there cannot be a thread about a British airplane that does not become a discussion/request for a German airplane.
God forbid we segway into a related and relevent area of discussion.
His Majesty, the King :cheers: ( :rolleyes:).
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That picture is of Seafires or Spitfires. Not a Hurri in it.
ah your right... ok 1 bad pic for 3 good ones :D
(http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1059/1137210149_0c4561a18b.jpg)
(http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1025/1137210297_5341453011.jpg)
(http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1358/1137210431_284a4d0102.jpg)
oh, one more.
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/49/HMS_Nairana.jpg)
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Now I am not saying they should be added but they where still in active service well into 44. Wildcats did not replace them on HMS Nairana until September 1944.
I personally would love to have the IB and the Canadian 12gun hurries. But saying that the IIc meet all HTCs needs for inclusion.
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How much action did they see? Were they relegated to escort carriers on the Atlantic convoy routes where they saw little action or were they seeing significant combat?
In my opinion, the most significant British carrier aircraft by far was the Seafire Mk III of which 1200 were built, far more than all of the Sea Hurricanes combined and almost 1000 more than the Seafire Mk II we have. The last dogfight of WWII was between A6M5s and Seafire Mk IIIs.
However, it is not 'politically correct' to ask for a Spitfire variant on these forums, so....
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thats pretty active for a squad of 6 planes.
On 31 December 1943, the squadron transferred to the escort carrier HMS Nairana, returning ashore at RNAS Hatston and RNAS Machrihanish (HMS Landrail) in January 1944. Most of 1944, however, was spent onboard Nairana, on Atlantic convoy duties and on the Gibraltar Run. The squadron also served in 1944 with a successful submarine Hunter-Killer Group in the North Atlantic under the overall command of Captain Frederick Walker. In May–June 1944, three Ju 290s were shot down.[7] In August 1944, the squadron became involved in the Murmansk Convoys to and from RNAS Hatston, where it faced the most dangerous flying conditions of the war, and attacked two U-Boats and shot down four enemy aircraft
thats 835 NAS^
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After doing some research the IIB hurricane scored a few victories from carriers, its going to be very hard to sell the cannon Hurri over the 12x 303 version.
I would say the Fulmar seen more combat then the Cannon Hurris, and it was an outdated P.O.S.
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Yes 12 .303s! :banana:
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Yes 12 .303s! :banana:
:headscratch:
and again :headscratch:
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thats pretty active for a squad of 6 planes.
thats 835 NAS^
It is kind of funny, but 2 other naval air squadrons that used the Sea Hurri IIc also got them in batches of 6 planes -
http://www.hmstheseus.co.uk/804squadron.htm (http://www.hmstheseus.co.uk/804squadron.htm) - 804 Squadron used 6 Sea Hurri IIcs to support the North African landings
http://www.royalnavyresearcharchive.org.uk/ESCORT/S824.htm (http://www.royalnavyresearcharchive.org.uk/ESCORT/S824.htm) - 824 Squadron used them for convoy escort on the Gibraltar and North Atlantic.
Is it something about the disposition of British naval air squadrons that they allocated aircraft this way? I see a lot of squadron histories where they talk about getting 3 of this, or 6 or 9 of that.
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and again :headscratch:
:headscratch:
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:headscratch:
and again :headscratch:
Its quite fun to kill an enemy slowly in a TnB plane. You latch onto their six and start a torrent of pings that just does not stop. even after they have been killed the sound still plays out for a bit :devil
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12 guns chaps... 12 guns :huh
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12 guns chaps... 12 guns :huh
Sorry whats your point? :headscratch:
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Sorry whats your point? :headscratch:
There's 12 points young Padawan..
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Sorry whats your point? :headscratch:
What is your obsession with cannons, Fish42?
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What is your obsession with cannons, Fish42?
No obsession. I would like the hurries to be remodeled soon, but when it happens the Sea hurries deserve to be added. Personally I would fly the 303 armed birds as I like them better. But why not add a verson of the plane that flew in combat, at NAS squadron strength and shot down many cons in its service life?
I only added all this other info as I stumbled apon it after someone said that the sea hurri IIc's never saw combat and I wanted to see if that was true.
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No obsession. I would like the hurries to be remodeled soon, but when it happens the Sea hurries deserve to be added. Personally I would fly the 303 armed birds as I like them better. But why not add a verson of the plane that flew in combat, at NAS squadron strength and shot down many cons in its service life?
I only added all this other info as I stumbled apon it after someone said that the sea hurri IIc's never saw combat and I wanted to see if that was true.
A good book to read is Osprey Aircraft of the Aces #57 - Hurricane Aces 1941-1945
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No obsession. I would like the hurries to be remodeled soon, but when it happens the Sea hurries deserve to be added. Personally I would fly the 303 armed birds as I like them better. But why not add a verson of the plane that flew in combat, at NAS squadron strength and shot down many cons in its service life?
I only added all this other info as I stumbled apon it after someone said that the sea hurri IIc's never saw combat and I wanted to see if that was true.
Shot down many cons? And it was flying off escort carriers on sub patrols and convoy escort, not the big carriers. It's still the cannons that in game have the biggest impact. If it's about adding a Sea Hurricane, then the IB makes the most sense.
BTW its a typo on the Hurri IIcs off carriers for Operation Torch. There were a few IC and they did have 6 kills. But that was an even slower bird then a normal Hurri I topping out at 295MPH
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Shot down many cons?
I have already shown that one squad of six planes shot down 7 enemy birds and attacked 2 U-boat between May and August 1944. Not bad for a 1 squad that was always on the move.
And it was flying off escort carriers on sub patrols and convoy escort, not the big carriers.
How does this discredit what the planes managed to do with the combat they had seen?
It's still the cannons that in game have the biggest impact. If it's about adding a Sea Hurricane, then the IB makes the most sense.
Yes, the Ib was the most produced and used, but if they are going to remodel the hurris the Hurri 2c is bugger all of a step away to adding a Sea Hurri 2c.
If the cannons are the big problem, why? its not like the hurri 2c is an Uber bird. the Seafire we have will out fly it and the ammo loadout is quite low. So it's not the next F4U-C.
Oh and I dont want the rockets, but I posted about them to show they were used operationally by Sea Hurries of HMS Vindex.
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how many land based Hurricanes used rockets?
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how many land based Hurricanes used rockets?
The hurri IV used them quite often as they carried no cannons (not counting the 40mms that could be fitted for tank busting) and only had 2 303s for sighting.
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I believe the Mk.IV didn't even have 30cals for sighting when they carried rockets or bombs. They were purely ord based. They only had the 30cal for sighting when using the 40mm anti tank guns.
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I do believe the IV had at least a single sighting 303 Krusty. They operated in the Balkans.
(http://i152.photobucket.com/albums/s199/guppy35/HurriIV-1.jpg)