The mustang can go toe to toe with a yak in a stall fight no problem.
Ah, no. The Yak has a much tighter turn radius. I'd classify it mid way between a Spit 8 and the P-51D. the P-51D pilot has to conserve his E and avoid using excessive flaps or it becomes slow speed fight where the Yak is superior.
On paper, but not in the game, and it depends on who is flying. I share the view of BigR, and have done it many times. The 51 is very versatile and can stall fight a Yak quite well, even at slow speeds.I concur.
On paper, but not in the game, and it depends on who is flying. I share the view of BigR, and have done it many times. The 51 is very versatile and can stall fight a Yak quite well, even at slow speeds.
Love the pony, not the best in it but middle of the pack and getting better everyday..............I own Yaks............Tempests and F4U-4's also
I'm game.
the f4u-4 is the best prop plane in the game bar-none, if your not owning in it, your doing something wrong.
F4U-4, better in stall fight then 109s?
Boo
Any evening after 9 PM (U.S. Eastern) next week... I suggest you go offline and practice. Not flying the Mustang, but staying inside the boundaries of the field in it. That, in itself can be a challenge. You'll find this type of fight a great deal of fun.Monday is the best night for me. Say 9 pm eastern?
If the P51 wasn't such a crappy dogfighter more people would dogfight with it :bolt:
Yak strategy would be not to run out of gas/ammo chasing the Mustang after every "Hail Mary" pass.
P-51D strategy would be the same as any other time it encounters a single con by itself: BnZ/extend until the Yak runs out of gas.
a semi decent yak player can kill the pony every time. but most yak fliers think it's a c205.
semp
F4U-4, better in stall fight then 109s?
Boo
Monday is the best night for me. Say 9 pm eastern?
On paper, but not in the game, and it depends on who is flying.[/color] I share the view of BigR, and have done it many times. The 51 is very versatile and can stall fight a Yak quite well, even at slow speeds.
All in all, the 'clout' around 109s is more due to the pilots than to the plane, just be thankful grizz wasn't flying p40Bs, or everyone would be claiming they are 'uber' too.
That's misleading because the K4 has climb and speed unmatched by anything unperked in the game.
the K4 is one of (if not THE) most survivable plane ingame, La7's can be problematic tho.
the K4 is one of (if not THE) most survivable plane ingame
Its a calculated decision, and they wouldn't be as dominant in any other ride,
The k/d stats don't support your claim...
The most survivable plane is the p38-J or the TA-152.
http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,326962.0.html (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,326962.0.html)
You are saying the plane (K4) is the reason they are dominant? I could not disagree with you more. It is absurd.
Jak, P51.. 2 planes from the most boring kind: come at 20k, BnZ as long as i dont run outta fuel or dive to the deck and "excend" as long as they dont find a spit to help them.
As for the K4, Levi is right, a top10 pilot in a k4 can be very successful. It just takes some skill to use your whole plane, not only its engine power (rope run rope run...). It has the tater. The pony pilots are jelous to the 109 ones couse they kill them with one ping... true. I was flying an f4u yesterday, what has the same guns as the pony. Was ridiculously easy to get kills, even from 600 out. In the K4 i dont even fire if the opponent is farther than 300-350.
It isnt without a reason that the majority of the ACM wizards are flying the 109. Its stability allows the pilot to pull moves other planes cant even dream about.
The 109 is very strong on some aspects, also very weak in others. Not nearly as good all around as the spit/f4u/lala.
Thats not true most of the time(when considering where most AH fights are at)... here are some examples
k4 vs spit 16 (almost identical climb)
k4 vs la7 (la7 is faster at most common AH alts)
We had our cage match last night, although Relic had already been flying P-51D vs Yak earlier in the TA with a squadie. In each case the result was that the P-51D hasn't a chance, regardless of who flies it. This is a function of the Yak-9U having the same turn radius clean as the P-51D does with full flaps. In a stall fight, that's an insurmountable problem. The Yak driver can elect to use his flaps to get easy angles, or keep them up to dominate the vertical. No doubt that a P-51D pilot who elects to dump flaps and maneuver can catch an unsuspecting Yak pilot flat-footed. That is a common experience, because so many P-51 pilots would rather run than knife fight.
What you've presented is a bit deceptive.
That's misleading because the K4 has climb and speed unmatched by anything unperked in the game.
The K4 is close to 15% faster than the Spit, and it climbs identically to the La7 on the deck and significantly better at every other altitude. To go back to another point made in this thread, the K4 has something on just about opponent in the plane set that either aids its survivability or lethality.
| plane | k4 | spit 16 |
| turn radius | * | |
| top speed | * | |
| better compression behavior | * | |
| climb | * | * |
| dive acceleration | * | |
| effective gun range | * |
I would disagree with you, Bunny.
Grizz, or anyone from the top10 would PWN the very large majority in the P40B, true. In a turnfight. But just like they learned with the g6, they would learn very soon:
"NOT to turn with the P40B couse your spit might get PWNed in 2 turns. Climb or run away instead"
<insert a sad face here>
My point was to prove that the K4 is matched in climb or speed by other non-perk plane in the game and the graphs prove it.
But back to what I stated originally, I think the popularity of the K4 is more to do with a few top sticks flying it rather than any of its 'merits'.
so grizz in a p40B > than most in anything.
maybe... but then again, brewsters & zeros are popular and are successful in the MA yet one can easily run away from one. I think it depends on the number of people flying it initially. If you had a 20+ people good in it, people might behave differently as they would know its not necessarily only Grizz in the p40b.
And my point is that you ignored the rest of BoilerDown's statement, which is: "What makes the K4 such an easy choice is that it doesn't matter what everyone else is flying, the K4 is better than it in the same two ways, only the degree of better is different." You showed how the K4 was matched along one dimension, but you didn't show how other planes were better in both ways.
2) My response was in reaction to Boilerdowns argument. Your argument and his are fundamentally different.
Boilerdowns argument: (K4.speed and k4.climb) > {set of all other non-perked planes) (The part that can be rationally deduced)
Your argument: (K4.speed or k4.climb) > {set of all other non-perked planes)
I think that's a fair conclusion.Good, now we agree that they are different arguments, quoting my statements to boilerdown's argument are inadmissible to your argument, which was my point a half page ago.
Like I said, his statement was an exaggeration but not entirely inaccurate.
It is great - undeniably great - and in the right hands becomes one of the top non-perked planes in the set. There's really no point in trying to downplay its strengths. It isn't an immediately easy plane to fly or master, but that doesn't make it weak.
Good, now we agree that they are different arguments, quoting my statements to boilerdown's argument are inadmissible to your argument, which was my point a half page ago.
How do you define 'undeniably great'? your argument now has infinite attributes of which you are selectively choosing from to decide 'greatness' from, rendering it effectively moot. All planes must be compared too using the same attributes.
Inadmissible? You're funny. :) I think this represents the logic of it well.ahh trying to save face with humor and hyperbole ehh? You just capitulated... :neener:
(k4.speedrank + k4.climbrank)/2 > {(nonk4.speedrank + nonk4.climbrank)/2 of non-perk plane set}
If you consider a rank ordering of planes by capability with 1 as the worst and 10 as the best, the K4 would average a higher rank than other non-perk planes on these two dimensions.
You said an F4U-4 was the best prop plane in the game. What criteria were you using there? What attributes are you selectively choosing from to decide "best?" I bet a Val outturns it and is better at augering, after all. Would a Val not be "best" at those attributes?
The encounter that made me start this thread was pretty much like every Yak-9 vs 51/Jug encounter Ive ever had. They have Alt/E and I dodge their B&Zs trying to work them lower. I then wait for the one time they get to greedy and burn to much E, or just work themselves out of it, and then get them slow enough to where I can use the Yaks superior climb to get an angle on them. With some 51 Jocks its not easy, they know their machine to well. But any turn fight im in with a Yak, against a 51/Jug, will not be a flat turn fight.
Frankly its the spixteens that really give my Yaks problems. But if your running a Yak to slow theres a lot of planes that can bring grief. Anyway I was working a good 51 jock like this, and it was turning into a humdinger "he was good", when someone I didnt see picked me. I frankly ask on vox before dropping in on a 1 on 1. The good ones are rare.
ahh trying to save face with humor and hyperbole ehh? You just capitulated... :neener:
EDIT: postponed my BBS victory dance :)
Declaring victory on the Interwebs is the very definition of failure.
They tend to be very aggressive, easy overshoots and burn E with unnecessary near blackout turns.
Yak strategy would be not to run out of gas/ammo chasing the Mustang after every "Hail Mary" pass.
P-51D strategy would be the same as any other time it encounters a single con by itself: BnZ/extend until the Yak runs out of gas.
Funny thing is the runStang can take the Yak no problem if the pilot commits to the fight.
We had our cage match last night, although Relic had already been flying P-51D vs Yak earlier in the TA with a squadie. In each case the result was that the P-51D hasn't a chance, regardless of who flies it. ...
Yeah Right ! :lol
ded go duel yourself in the DA, Yak vs 51 and get back to us who won. :devil
Sounds good to me... Meet me in the TA. Look for TredLite on the roster.That looks like alot of fun! Nice to watch on external view zoomed all the way out. <S>
Here's a film of Gixer and me dueling in Yak-9Ts in a cage match. This was done before the latest map/graphic updates, so keep that in mind as the boundaries may have changed...
http://www.mediafire.com/file/ltaxbkrai269bzk/GixerLast.ahf (http://www.mediafire.com/file/ltaxbkrai269bzk/GixerLast.ahf)
ded go duel yourself in the DA, Yak vs 51 and get back to us who won. :devil
I won, duh :noid
I won, duh :noid
I am confused. What makes him more right than me? It is one mans opinion and he should not be saying "regardless who is flying the plane" since there are a lot of things to consider in a fight like that. Even the personality of a person comes into play and I am pretty sure, he has not met everyone.
I'd say me in a 51 vs me in Yak, me in a 51 will win. And I can back that statement since I do know "me". The rest is speculation.
I am confused. What makes him more right than me? It is one mans opinion and he should not be saying "regardless who is flying the plane" since there are a lot of things to consider in a fight like that. Even the personality of a person comes into play and I am pretty sure, he has not met everyone.
I'd say me in a 51 vs me in Yak, me in a 51 will win. And I can back that statement since I do know "me". The rest is speculation.
Heya Ded!
The great thing about cage matches is that they are a great de-liar of stall fighting. I started doing this a few years ago after attempting to duel Gixer, who would extend half way to Australia rather than maneuver fight in close. The cage match doesn't allow you to get any further away than 800 to 1,000 yards. In short, you can't reset the fight without cooperation from the other guy. It forces one to extract all the plane has, flying very close to a stall all of the time. In this environment, the P-51 wallows badly. All the Yak driver need do it take the fight vertical. The Yak can take it vertical because it accelerates better, building speed quicker and converting that speed into altitude.
Let's assume that the pilots are reasonably equal.... Then it truly doesn't matter who is flying the P-51, the Mustang will lose in the above format.
But you had to HO for the win.
ack-ack
Does Grizz even play anymore?
Serious question.
I am confused. What makes him more right than me? It is one mans opinion and he should not be saying "regardless who is flying the plane" since there are a lot of things to consider in a fight like that. Even the personality of a person comes into play and I am pretty sure, he has not met everyone.
I'd say me in a 51 vs me in Yak, me in a 51 will win. And I can back that statement since I do know "me". The rest is speculation.
I agree with Ded. Lengro and I did Yak vs P51 a couple of days ago. The P51 was the boss of that fight no doubt, the only chance the Yak had was in creating an E advantage (due to the p51 burning E in tight turns by choice) and wearing the pony down with BnZ. Anecdotal evidence, I realise, but I agree with Ded either way.
I agree with Ded. Lengro and I did Yak vs P51 a couple of days ago. The P51 was the boss of that fight no doubt, the only chance the Yak had was in creating an E advantage (due to the p51 burning E in tight turns by choice) and wearing the pony down with BnZ. Anecdotal evidence, I realise, but I agree with Ded either way.
Try it again using the "cage match" rules. As much as I hate to say it, the Yak dominates the Pony in that situation.
I agree with Ded. Lengro and I did Yak vs P51 a couple of days ago. The P51 was the boss of that fight no doubt, the only chance the Yak had was in creating an E advantageFilms or it didn't happen :lol
I guess this is my point about how there are so many variables including the pilots personality that will influence the results. I did not assume a controlled environment when I wrote my post but even in there, I would be dead or have killed the yak before any thoughts about going vertical would come into play.As always in Plane vs Plane thread we go to Pilot vs Pilot thing. :(
Agree... They should try it. This is a fist fight in a phone booth. You'll never see much more than 200 mph, and that's only on the initial merge. This type of fight is as much about low speed handling as it is skill. The P-51 is not a stall fighter and it will be very evident in a cage match.
OK, this is getting silly. I am sure I can set up a scenario where plane A always kills plane B. That was not the original question and I don't see how the "cage match" dictates that a Yak will always kill the 51 no matter who the pilot is.
FireDrgn, I agree with Ded in that if it was me in a p51 vs me in a yak the p51 would win everytime.
Interesting concept. Your argument is not possible. No where for me to go with that. L8r :cheers:
Interesting concept. Your argument is not possible. No where for me to go with that. L8r :cheers:
He's saying staright up plane vs plane and flown properly, the pony will win.I agree. Where the Yak has the real advantage is once the fight gets low and slow.
I'm not so sure. People seem to disregard the one appealing trait of the yak9U is its speed. The biggest drawback is ammo and ballistics, but that matters less in a 1 v 1. Over 18k the pony will win. Under 18k, there's no clear cut winner.
Around 8k their respective performance is comparable, with the yak having the edge in acceleration and mil power. If they both go to flaps in a scissors, it will belong to the yak once he uses the vertical. The pony will have to rely on proper use of wep. Both have the ability to extend from the other.
Myself in yak vs myself in pony? Could go either way.
Let me help you. Set the time frame a year or two ago so rust is not an issue as much.
Me in a 51 vs 90% of the AH population in a Yak, Me wins. Here is where it gets better. Me in a Yak vs 90% of the AH population in a 51, Me wins again. Does that compute better? Saying that plane A always wins vs plane B no mater who is flying it is silly.
"FireDrgn, I agree with Ded in that if it was me in a p51 vs me in a yak the p51 would win everytime."\
No that does not compute :bhead
That being said I did say that the Yak nose up would win every time so I am guilty of the same.
Its obvious that neither the yak nor the 51 can actually win . This is apparent if you bail out of either plane in the middle of a fight.
I should have chosen my words more carfully/ I aggree with. "Saying that plane A always wins vs plane B no mater who is flying it is silly."
Some guy puts some goofy restrictions on the fight then makes a false statement that the Yak will always win no matter who is flying it and some how it becomes a fact?
Let's review this thread and see if we can follow the progression....
One guy wrote: "The mustang can go toe to toe with a yak in a stall fight no problem."
I replied: "Ah, no. The Yak has a much tighter turn radius. I'd classify it mid way between a Spit 8 and the P-51D. the P-51D pilot has to conserve his E and avoid using excessive flaps or it becomes slow speed fight where the Yak is superior."
Another gent chimes in: "On paper, but not in the game, and it depends on who is flying. I share the view of BigR, and have done it many times. The 51 is very versatile and can stall fight a Yak quite well, even at slow speeds."
Relic agrees: "I concur."
I offer a challenge: "Okay, let's settle this... Cage match. Large field in TA. Can't fly beyond the outer road boundary of the field. Take off on opposite headings. Reverse at other end for merge. Guaranteed stall fight. You, or anyone else feeling froggy, takes a P-51D, I'll take a Yak-9U. 60 seconds after the merge, you'll be flying a sieve. Any takers?"
Relic takes the challenge: "I'm game."
So, we fight the cage match and the Yak utterly dominates the P-51...
There were no other takers... Nonetheless, the fact remains that the Yak will abuse the P-51D in a stall fight. Given equal pilots, the P-51 will not win...
Now, the MA environment is completely different, but we were not discussing the MA per se, but stall fighting.
He's saying staright up plane vs plane and flown properly, the pony will win.
I'm not so sure. People seem to disregard the one appealing trait of the yak9U is its speed. The biggest drawback is ammo and ballistics, but that matters less in a 1 v 1.
Let's review this thread and see if we can follow the progression....
One guy wrote: "The mustang can go toe to toe with a yak in a stall fight no problem."
I replied: "Ah, no. The Yak has a much tighter turn radius. I'd classify it mid way between a Spit 8 and the P-51D. the P-51D pilot has to conserve his E and avoid using excessive flaps or it becomes slow speed fight where the Yak is superior."
Another gent chimes in: "On paper, but not in the game, and it depends on who is flying. I share the view of BigR, and have done it many times. The 51 is very versatile and can stall fight a Yak quite well, even at slow speeds."
Relic agrees: "I concur."
I offer a challenge: "Okay, let's settle this... Cage match. Large field in TA. Can't fly beyond the outer road boundary of the field. Take off on opposite headings. Reverse at other end for merge. Guaranteed stall fight. You, or anyone else feeling froggy, takes a P-51D, I'll take a Yak-9U. 60 seconds after the merge, you'll be flying a sieve. Any takers?"
Relic takes the challenge: "I'm game."
So, we fight the cage match and the Yak utterly dominates the P-51...
There were no other takers... Nonetheless, the fact remains that the Yak will abuse the P-51D in a stall fight. Given equal pilots, the P-51 will not win...
Now, the MA environment is completely different, but we were not discussing the MA per se, but stall fighting.
CLEARLY this is all my fault for being such a crappy Pony driver! ;)
I will take you up on this. I've played less than an hour per night this week, but I should have time this weekend.
Let's also try a fight at 5k, where there's some vertical to use for low yo-yos.
Let's review this thread and see if we can follow the progression....
One guy wrote: "The mustang can go toe to toe with a yak in a stall fight no problem."
I replied: "Ah, no. The Yak has a much tighter turn radius. I'd classify it mid way between a Spit 8 and the P-51D. the P-51D pilot has to conserve his E and avoid using excessive flaps or it becomes slow speed fight where the Yak is superior."
Another gent chimes in: "On paper, but not in the game, and it depends on who is flying. I share the view of BigR, and have done it many times. The 51 is very versatile and can stall fight a Yak quite well, even at slow speeds."
Relic agrees: "I concur."
I offer a challenge: "Okay, let's settle this... Cage match. Large field in TA. Can't fly beyond the outer road boundary of the field. Take off on opposite headings. Reverse at other end for merge. Guaranteed stall fight. You, or anyone else feeling froggy, takes a P-51D, I'll take a Yak-9U. 60 seconds after the merge, you'll be flying a sieve. Any takers?"
Relic takes the challenge: "I'm game."
So, we fight the cage match and the Yak utterly dominates the P-51...
There were no other takers... Nonetheless, the fact remains that the Yak will abuse the P-51D in a stall fight. Given equal pilots, the P-51 will not win...
Now, the MA environment is completely different, but we were not discussing the MA per se, but stall fighting.
I haven't been getting much flying in during the week... Family stuff, like getting grand kid to bed and the like gets priority. However, I'm usually on after 9 PM weekends. Check the Roster for TredLite.
We can fly any combination you like beyond the "cage match".
"Now, the MA environment is completely different"The MA is not a cage match and the P-51D is free to use its speed and fuel endurance advantages in order to beat a Yak-9U.
Can You explain this?
:salute
Why doesn't it compute? He is taking out the variable of the pilot and puts the focus on the plane. How could you possibly compare planes if pilot skill becomes part of the equation?
Since when did the Yak become a contender in this game anyway :lol? Some guy puts some goofy restrictions on the fight then makes a false statement that the Yak will always win no matter who is flying it and some how it becomes a fact? Ask that guy if he can beat everyone if he is in a Yak. The answer should be yes if he is right.
There is no way to take the pilot out of the equation as i stated before its NOT POSSIBLE UNLESS YOU bail out :rofl why dont you let bat answer for himself .. He chose not to responed to me. I got not problem with that.
You cant win and take the pilot out of the equation your argument is not possible, jedi mind tricks dont work on me.
You have to be confused!!! Bat claims that the 51 will win no matter what ,contradicts your claim that.
"Saying that plane A always wins vs plane B no mater who is flying it is silly."
Why dont you ask your own questions and stop trolling in the third person?
How could you possibly compare planes if pilot skill becomes part of the equation? /quote]
How could you possible compare planes without pilot skill as part of the equation?
Please let me know how this is done?
When did planes reach singularity?
This thread went from a good discussion to a FAIL contest.
boo - where are you