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General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: VonMessa on February 27, 2012, 07:43:34 PM

Title: Newest family member
Post by: VonMessa on February 27, 2012, 07:43:34 PM
Margarete (Grete) von Messa

Born 12/19/11.  Picked her up last Friday.

(http://i239.photobucket.com/albums/ff107/tymekeepyr/Puppy/100_3211_1.jpg)

(http://i239.photobucket.com/albums/ff107/tymekeepyr/Puppy/100_3213_1.jpg)

(http://i239.photobucket.com/albums/ff107/tymekeepyr/Puppy/porshpurple6wk2copy.jpg)

(http://i239.photobucket.com/albums/ff107/tymekeepyr/Puppy/DSC00887.jpg)

(http://i239.photobucket.com/albums/ff107/tymekeepyr/Puppy/DSC00883.jpg)

(http://i239.photobucket.com/albums/ff107/tymekeepyr/Puppy/NEWDSC00884.jpg)

(http://i239.photobucket.com/albums/ff107/tymekeepyr/Puppy/DSC00880.jpg)

(http://i239.photobucket.com/albums/ff107/tymekeepyr/Puppy/100_2318.jpg)

(http://i239.photobucket.com/albums/ff107/tymekeepyr/Puppy/100_2325.jpg)
Title: Re: Newest family member
Post by: Pigslilspaz on February 27, 2012, 07:48:03 PM
Second picture has to be my favorite. She's adorable lol
Title: Re: Newest family member
Post by: VonMessa on February 27, 2012, 07:49:31 PM
Second picture has to be my favorite. She's adorable lol

I think she was 3 weeks, there.  That's when we put a deposit down on her.
Title: Re: Newest family member
Post by: morfiend on February 27, 2012, 07:51:09 PM
 Very nice Von! :aok

  A great tip is to get yourself some natural fiber rope,3/4 to 1 and 1/2 inch stuff and tie a big knot into it.  Cheap if you get it by the foot at your local marine supply shop.  I laugh when I see them charging 5 to 10 bucks for about 25 cents worht of rope!  Oh it does come in pretty colours.... :rolleyes:



   She's a real cutie,bet you have her whipped into shape in no time!



     :salute
Title: Re: Newest family member
Post by: Flench on February 27, 2012, 07:55:31 PM
NICE ! Two cool ...
Title: Re: Newest family member
Post by: texasmom on February 27, 2012, 07:57:47 PM
What a cutie!
Title: Re: Newest family member
Post by: VonMessa on February 27, 2012, 08:26:09 PM
Very nice Von! :aok

  A great tip is to get yourself some natural fiber rope,3/4 to 1 and 1/2 inch stuff and tie a big knot into it.  Cheap if you get it by the foot at your local marine supply shop.  I laugh when I see them charging 5 to 10 bucks for about 25 cents worht of rope!  Oh it does come in pretty colours.... :rolleyes:



   She's a real cutie,bet you have her whipped into shape in no time!



     :salute

You mean tie it into a monkey's fist?   :devil

(http://i239.photobucket.com/albums/ff107/tymekeepyr/Puppy/DSC00874.jpg)
Title: Re: Newest family member
Post by: Flench on February 27, 2012, 08:47:52 PM
Oh man I want one now ...:)
Title: Re: Newest family member
Post by: Dichotomy on February 27, 2012, 08:49:17 PM
 :aok and  :salute bro
Title: Re: Newest family member
Post by: DEECONX on February 27, 2012, 09:16:12 PM
Great looking Shepherd Von!  :aok

Had mine, Winchester, for about 3 years now. They get BIG.
Title: Re: Newest family member
Post by: curry1 on February 27, 2012, 10:52:22 PM
Margarete (Grete) von Messa

Born 12/19/11.  Picked her up last Friday.

(http://i239.photobucket.com/albums/ff107/tymekeepyr/Puppy/100_3211_1.jpg)


(http://i.imgur.com/xEeza.gif)
Title: Re: Newest family member
Post by: Slash27 on February 27, 2012, 10:56:53 PM
Awesome looking dog. Congrats Von.
Title: Re: Newest family member
Post by: katanaso on February 27, 2012, 10:59:05 PM
Awesome looking opossum!

:)

ha...that's a great looking pup. :)  Congratulations!
Title: Re: Newest family member
Post by: Dragon on February 28, 2012, 07:38:18 AM

That's a good size cat, very cute.


(http://i364.photobucket.com/albums/oo82/bzavasnik/rollerbananadone.gif)
Title: Re: Newest family member
Post by: VonMessa on February 28, 2012, 08:24:42 AM
That's a good size cat, very cute.


(http://i364.photobucket.com/albums/oo82/bzavasnik/rollerbananadone.gif)

I'll keep that in mind when she is the same size as her parents   :D

(http://i239.photobucket.com/albums/ff107/tymekeepyr/Puppy/Parents/sandystacked62305.jpg)

(http://i239.photobucket.com/albums/ff107/tymekeepyr/Puppy/Parents/saba3.jpg)
Title: Re: Newest family member
Post by: betty on February 28, 2012, 10:27:03 AM
awesome messa!! congrats on the new family member! sooooooooo adorable!!!!!
Title: Re: Newest family member
Post by: Gaidin on February 28, 2012, 02:21:29 PM
If you don't mind the question Von, whats the going rate on them now?  What breeder did you use?
Title: Re: Newest family member
Post by: GNucks on February 28, 2012, 03:03:54 PM
That eighth pic in the OP... boy does she have some sharp puppy-teeth!  :O I'd have a blast playing with that dog, I can tell. Man I miss my dogs' puppy years.
Title: Re: Newest family member
Post by: VonMessa on February 28, 2012, 03:29:38 PM
If you don't mind the question Von, whats the going rate on them now?  What breeder did you use?

A long-time family friend.  She has known me since I was a puppy  :D

http://jolinkennel.com/

As for price, I couldn't tell you for certain.  Somewhere around $1500.  Less for a "pet" quality dog (meaning you know the breeding, but you don't get papers or get to breed it)  Not a lesser quality dog, just limited on how you can use it.  She is very careful about her clients, especially with the caliber of dogs she sells.

As for my price?  Like I said, I've known her for 30 years and used to hep my mom train her dogs for the PA State police.  Let's just say that it was a good deal  :P
Title: Re: Newest family member
Post by: morfiend on February 28, 2012, 03:48:15 PM
 Ya Von a monkeyfist!!


  I should have known someone a shrude as you doesnt need any tips from me! :aok



   BTW,I sold my "pet" quality dogs with papers if the owner desired but had a strict nonbreeding contract,you try to breed and you loose ownership of the dog.Later on I demanded the dogs be spayed or neutered before 1 year of age.

  Your breeder/friend is just protecting her lines,smart of her,it takes years to develope a "type" and unfortunately it usually cost you way more than you can ever make by selling pups to do this. I'd bet she can recall every pup and where it went and keeps intouch with the owners,most good breeders follow this patern as you sure arent doing it for the money!

  1500$$ might sound like alot of money for a dog but it's about average these days for any quality dog and a down right bargain for some. I only ever made money on 1 dog,he sold for 5 grand of which I got half as per breeding agreement,his sire was the #1 bullterrier in the world at the time.    But that was 25 years ago!!!


   Von,I sure wouldnt want to enter your house univited in about a year or so! :devil



     :salute
Title: Re: Newest family member
Post by: VonMessa on February 28, 2012, 03:54:04 PM
Ya Von a monkeyfist!!


  I should have known someone a shrude as you doesnt need any tips from me! :aok



   BTW,I sold my "pet" quality dogs with papers if the owner desired but had a strict nonbreeding contract,you try to breed and you loose ownership of the dog.Later on I demanded the dogs be spayed or neutered before 1 year of age.

  Your breeder/friend is just protecting her lines,smart of her,it takes years to develope a "type" and unfortunately it usually cost you way more than you can ever make by selling pups to do this. I'd bet she can recall every pup and where it went and keeps intouch with the owners,most good breeders follow this patern as you sure arent doing it for the money!

  1500$$ might sound like alot of money for a dog but it's about average these days for any quality dog and a down right bargain for some. I only ever made money on 1 dog,he sold for 5 grand of which I got half as per breeding agreement,his sire was the #1 bullterrier in the world at the time.    But that was 25 years ago!!!


   Von,I sure wouldnt want to enter your house univited in about a year or so! :devil



     :salute

That's why I got a female.  Not as territorial as a male.  More protective of the folks inside the house, as opposed to, the property.

Like you said, you might get in uninvited, but you won't get out  :devil
Title: Re: Newest family member
Post by: Pigslilspaz on February 28, 2012, 04:03:31 PM
Love German Shepherds, but Labs are where it's at. My friend was raising one for duck hunting but was too afraid of gunshots to keep doing it, even after trying most everything to desensitize the fear, poor thing.
Title: Re: Newest family member
Post by: B4Buster on February 28, 2012, 04:27:03 PM
adorable, Von!
Title: Re: Newest family member
Post by: jeep00 on February 28, 2012, 04:35:37 PM
Nice lookin pup. Had to wait to get home to see the pics, congrats!

Bob
Title: Re: Newest family member
Post by: Babalonian on February 28, 2012, 04:38:50 PM
Love German Shepherds, but Labs are where it's at. My friend was raising one for duck hunting but was too afraid of gunshots to keep doing it, even after trying most everything to desensitize the fear, poor thing.

Some dogs are just that way.  I have an Australian Shepherd/Border Collie mix (we think) at the moment, great dog, but is _extremely_ sensitive to gunshots, even ones bouncing down a canyon/valley from miles away.  And I mean he gets very scared, to the point you end up with a 70-pound lapdog inviting himself to your seat or bed, or a 70-pound gopher trying to burrow under the chair your sitting in (with only enough capacity below it for 30-pounds of dog).

I feel sorry for him too, but only because I think he's trying his hardest not to s!@# or p!@# himself while inside if he hears one.
Title: Re: Newest family member
Post by: mechanic on February 28, 2012, 04:39:16 PM
great addition to the family, you can teach her to gaurd your beer stash  :rock
Title: Re: Newest family member
Post by: Penguin on February 28, 2012, 04:40:17 PM
Cute as a button, but she'll grow up to be a fierce lady.

-Penguin
Title: Re: Newest family member
Post by: morfiend on February 28, 2012, 05:06:35 PM
That's why I got a female.  Not as territorial as a male.  More protective of the folks inside the house, as opposed to, the property.

Like you said, you might get in uninvited, but you won't get out  :devil


  I agree Von,I tend to keep females for house dogs but the males tend to be better at the shows! Now if you have a real showy female then you have the best of both worlds.
          Von if you let her have a litter of pups,you'll then see the protective side kick in bigtime.

  Years ago I had a bully that would let you in but you couldnt leave.... :devil  If we left you unattended  for any length of time she would take you by the hand and escort you to the mat at the front door as thats where strangers belonged. She did this to many people and on occassion I'd leave a friend alone just long enough for her to decide that it's time for this person to stand on the mat...... :rofl :rofl :rofl She also had a neat trick with money but you had to give her 10 bucks to see her do it!  It was beer money after her trick. :noid



    :salute
Title: Re: Newest family member
Post by: ink on February 28, 2012, 05:34:30 PM
that's no APBT....... but she is cute enough  :D



Title: Re: Newest family member
Post by: betty on March 18, 2012, 11:24:51 PM
Morfiend....im getting my boys trained so i can get them to take the canine good citizen cert. test. I cant wait. They already know over half the  stuff on the test.:)
Title: Re: Newest family member
Post by: VonMessa on March 19, 2012, 08:33:10 AM
Morfiend....im getting my boys trained so i can get them to take the canine good citizen cert. test. I cant wait. They already know over half the  stuff on the test.:)

Good luck  :aok

Our trials will be similar to the good citizen tests (with regard to how well balanced the dog is)  with a few extras tossed in  :)

http://leerburg.com/schusa.htm#three (http://leerburg.com/schusa.htm#three)
Title: Re: Newest family member
Post by: Seanaldinho on March 19, 2012, 11:29:02 AM
Of the two dogs I would like to own the shepard is number one my second choice is a collie.

Beautiful dog btw von.
Title: Re: Newest family member
Post by: morfiend on March 19, 2012, 12:02:00 PM
Morfiend....im getting my boys trained so i can get them to take the canine good citizen cert. test. I cant wait. They already know over half the  stuff on the test.:)


  Good for you Betty. :aok    I was about to test 1 of my dogs as a therapy dog but then a muzzle in public law was enacted so I decided not to bother,I wouldnt be allowed to take her without a muzzle and that just wouldnt work.

  The more Pits that become good citizen and therapy dogs the better,maybe one day it will change peoples perceptions of the breed.

   Not many know they were at 1 time called Yankee terriers and were among the most popular dogs in the US. Shame that today they are associated with the bad elements of our society!



  If you ask me there is no such thing as a bad dog but there are plenty of bad owners and they ruin it for the responsible owners!



    :salute
Title: Re: Newest family member
Post by: VonMessa on March 19, 2012, 12:28:16 PM

  Good for you Betty. :aok    I was about to test 1 of my dogs as a therapy dog but then a muzzle in public law was enacted so I decided not to bother,I wouldnt be allowed to take her without a muzzle and that just wouldnt work.

  The more Pits that become good citizen and therapy dogs the better,maybe one day it will change peoples perceptions of the breed.

   Not many know they were at 1 time called Yankee terriers and were among the most popular dogs in the US. Shame that today they are associated with the bad elements of our society!



  If you ask me there is no such thing as a bad dog but there are plenty of bad owners and they ruin it for the responsible owners!



    :salute

Couldn't have said it better, myself  :aok
Title: Re: Newest family member
Post by: betty on March 19, 2012, 06:22:09 PM
Couldn't have said it better, myself  :aok

Amen morfiend! Messa...you puppy is georgous! And...yes..there are tons of idiots that own dogs that shouldnt. I fight a daily battle to change peoples minds about pitbulls. One person at a time is better than none.
Title: Re: Newest family member
Post by: uptown on March 19, 2012, 10:01:32 PM
Awesome dog! I have a big white German Shepherd (Ike) and would love to get a black & tan female. Wife says no even after I showed her the pics of yours  :lol  
I've had 3 different German Shepherds over the years. Never wanted any other breed more. They make wonderful additions to any family. Loyal, smart, protective, beautiful....the complete package.  :aok

Congrats on your new addition to the family.  :cheers:
Title: Re: Newest family member
Post by: VonMessa on March 20, 2012, 02:33:15 PM
Awesome dog! I have a big white German Shepherd (Ike) and would love to get a black & tan female. Wife says no even after I showed her the pics of yours  :lol  
I've had 3 different German Shepherds over the years. Never wanted any other breed more. They make wonderful additions to any family. Loyal, smart, protective, beautiful....the complete package.  :aok

Congrats on your new addition to the family.  :cheers:

You sure?

My dogs brother now needs a home.

Free !

(http://i239.photobucket.com/albums/ff107/tymekeepyr/gibbs2copy.jpg)

(http://i239.photobucket.com/albums/ff107/tymekeepyr/gibbscopy.jpg)
Title: Re: Newest family member
Post by: Delirium on March 20, 2012, 02:36:02 PM
Very tempting... my wife wants a dog and there is nothing better than Shepard.

Where are you? Philly? That is a 6 hour drive for me and definitely within reach.
Title: Re: Newest family member
Post by: VonMessa on March 20, 2012, 02:39:55 PM
Very tempting... my wife wants a dog and there is nothing better than Shepard.

Where are you? Philly? That is a 6 hour drive for me and definitely within reach.

Right outside of Philly, now.

PM me if you are serious.  Perhaps we can work something out.
Title: Re: Newest family member
Post by: Delirium on March 20, 2012, 02:42:08 PM
I sent the picture to my wife already, but this is a really bad time for us to pick up a dog. Most of the house is gutted and we have much more work to get done. It is definitely not a good environment for a new dog, but you know how wives can be.
Title: Re: Newest family member
Post by: VonMessa on March 20, 2012, 02:43:40 PM
I sent the picture to my wife already, but this is a really bad time for us to pick up a dog. Most of the house is gutted and we have much more work to get done. It is definitely not a good environment for a new dog, but you know how wives can be.

LOL, yes I do.

It's a shepherd.  He will adapt easily :)

His name is Gibbs.
Title: Re: Newest family member
Post by: morfiend on March 20, 2012, 02:48:15 PM
You sure?

My dogs brother now needs a home.

Free !

(http://i239.photobucket.com/albums/ff107/tymekeepyr/gibbs2copy.jpg)

(http://i239.photobucket.com/albums/ff107/tymekeepyr/gibbscopy.jpg)


  Wow now there's a bargain,a well bred dog for free!  Anyone wanting a dog should jump at this!




   :salute
Title: Re: Newest family member
Post by: Seanaldinho on March 20, 2012, 03:11:10 PM
You sure?

My dogs brother now needs a home.

Free !

(http://i239.photobucket.com/albums/ff107/tymekeepyr/gibbs2copy.jpg)

(http://i239.photobucket.com/albums/ff107/tymekeepyr/gibbscopy.jpg)

I would but im in Florida and Mum still said no even for free.  :cry :cry :cry
Title: Re: Newest family member
Post by: VonMessa on March 20, 2012, 03:21:19 PM
Mom (Porsche)  and Dad (Ziggy)

(http://i239.photobucket.com/albums/ff107/tymekeepyr/porschTensmum.jpg)

(http://i239.photobucket.com/albums/ff107/tymekeepyr/Jo-LinsZiggy.jpg)

Title: Re: Newest family member
Post by: Gaidin on March 20, 2012, 03:57:53 PM
I am trying to convince my wife I really need a 5th dog!!!
Title: Re: Newest family member
Post by: uptown on March 20, 2012, 06:01:10 PM
I love to color on Gibbs. I think that would make Delirium a fine family pet  :). Definitely worth the drive to go get.....especially for free. Ya don't see many free German Shepherds out there.

You say Gibbs is a male? I've found that the males are alot more mellow and friendly towards strangers as opposed to females. (The 2 females I had would eat strangers alive if we weren't careful  :lol) Although the females are more disciplined and mind what you say better then the males I think. 
Title: Re: Newest family member
Post by: Flench on March 20, 2012, 06:59:47 PM
 
You sure?

My dogs brother now needs a home.

Free !

(http://i239.photobucket.com/albums/ff107/tymekeepyr/gibbs2copy.jpg)

(http://i239.photobucket.com/albums/ff107/tymekeepyr/gibbscopy.jpg)

I would sure like to have him and would take him in a new york minute but your just to far away . He would love it where I live back in the wood's and all .

Delirium , you better jump on that .
Title: Re: Newest family member
Post by: Delirium on March 20, 2012, 07:10:45 PM
I would really like the dog, but we simply can't handle a dog right now. Since the house is such a mess, we are living out of the kitchen and living room for sleeping and eating.

Thanks for the offer, but it isn't fair to a dog to make it live in a cage day and night because contractors are going in and out all day long. Perhaps after construction is done, but that won't be until July.
Title: Re: Newest family member
Post by: Flench on March 20, 2012, 07:17:52 PM
I would really like the dog, but we simply can't handle a dog right now. Since the house is such a mess, we are living out of the kitchen and living room for sleeping and eating.

Thanks for the offer, but it isn't fair to a dog to make it live in a cage day and night because contractors are going in and out all day long. Perhaps after construction is done, but that won't be until July.
I hear ya Delirium I have been there . One word of advice , construction never seems to get done , lol .
Title: Re: Newest family member
Post by: VonMessa on March 20, 2012, 08:36:09 PM
I would really like the dog, but we simply can't handle a dog right now. Since the house is such a mess, we are living out of the kitchen and living room for sleeping and eating.

Thanks for the offer, but it isn't fair to a dog to make it live in a cage day and night because contractors are going in and out all day long. Perhaps after construction is done, but that won't be until July.

I understand, been there.

I'm lucky in the fact that I can take mine to work.
Title: Re: Newest family member
Post by: Dichotomy on March 20, 2012, 11:20:42 PM
I understand, been there.

I'm lucky in the fact that I can take mine to work.

To be honest brother I think your dog is the lucky one to have a good dude like you for a companion.  Mine are currently having a competition to see which one can get closer to my feet :) 
Title: Re: Newest family member
Post by: betty on March 21, 2012, 11:33:47 PM
I LOVE German Shepard's but I have to say that I i am more into pitbulls. My dog that I had for 14 years was samoid chow and husky, he was just a 150lb hair ball. He was the coolest dog and fell victim to the dog food recall back in 2007. I couldn't find myself getting another dog until I seen Stuka, he was just so lazy and chilled. All the other puppies were running around including the Tank that later became my dog also. After getting Stuka, I never realized the BS that people talk when they talk about pitbulls. I know my boys, they are just big teddy bears. So after hearing people say negative stuff about pitbulls and knowing how my boys are, I became a pretty big pitbull advocate. I just recently helped save a puppy from the Saginaw County Animal Shelter. This puppy was going to be put down if the owners had not came and got her. She was only 18 weeks old and I could not let her die. There were 3 other puppies in this shelter that were going to be put down. Saginaw County does not adopt pitbulls or anything that looks like a pitbull out. It wasn't fair that these poor pups would die just because of who they looked. So we got this place called The Lexus Project on our side, this group is a group of attorneys that help fight for the animals rights. They are pro bono lawyers and are totally free to help and willing to help.because they heard that this group got involved in Saginaw county animal shelter, the warden decided to release ALL the puppies to a rescue who could train them and make sure they were going to be adopted by loving families. I am proud that I was part of that. I will fight for all dogs, they used to look down on GS for their aggressiveness but its not anything to do with the dog, its all to do with the owner....rotties are on that same list of banned dogs, its sad.......
Title: Re: Newest family member
Post by: VonMessa on March 22, 2012, 08:15:57 AM
I LOVE German Shepard's but I have to say that I i am more into pitbulls. My dog that I had for 14 years was samoid chow and husky, he was just a 150lb hair ball. He was the coolest dog and fell victim to the dog food recall back in 2007. I couldn't find myself getting another dog until I seen Stuka, he was just so lazy and chilled. All the other puppies were running around including the Tank that later became my dog also. After getting Stuka, I never realized the BS that people talk when they talk about pitbulls. I know my boys, they are just big teddy bears. So after hearing people say negative stuff about pitbulls and knowing how my boys are, I became a pretty big pitbull advocate. I just recently helped save a puppy from the Saginaw County Animal Shelter. This puppy was going to be put down if the owners had not came and got her. She was only 18 weeks old and I could not let her die. There were 3 other puppies in this shelter that were going to be put down. Saginaw County does not adopt pitbulls or anything that looks like a pitbull out. It wasn't fair that these poor pups would die just because of who they looked. So we got this place called The Lexus Project on our side, this group is a group of attorneys that help fight for the animals rights. They are pro bono lawyers and are totally free to help and willing to help.because they heard that this group got involved in Saginaw county animal shelter, the warden decided to release ALL the puppies to a rescue who could train them and make sure they were going to be adopted by loving families. I am proud that I was part of that. I will fight for all dogs, they used to look down on GS for their aggressiveness but its not anything to do with the dog, its all to do with the owner....rotties are on that same list of banned dogs, its sad.......

Dog licenses should be for the PEOPLE that own them, not the dogs  :D

Banning a breed of dog is kinda silly.  Folks should have to be educated about different breeds before they choose a dog.

Some dogs are just not right for certain people.  Not everyone should own an APBT.  They are an awfully strong dog and physically too much for some folks.

Not everyone should own a Shepherd.  They are a high drive dog.  Mine is especially high drive, being a pure-bred.  The fact that both of her parents are high-drive means that she has prey-drive coming out of her wazoo.  It is exactly what I wanted.  It will be a huge asset when she is old enough to formally train as I can focus that drive and use it to motivate her.   Until that time, I have to wear her out EVERY DAY or she WILL be destructive unless I bleed out her energy.  It is her nature.  If I couldn't take her to work with me, like I now do, I would leave her at home, outside, in a 10 x 10 pen so she could run around and be a puppy.  Fortunately I am allowed to take her to the office and she gets to socialize and play with a lot of folks and she gets to wear herself out.  She also has a nightly battle-royale with the new kitten when we go home.  A shepherd is not the dog for a lazy person.  If not provided exercise and entertainment, they WILL chew up the house and make a mess, as will any high-drive dog.

Not enough people research the breed to match it with their lifestyle before getting a dog and, unfortunately, lots of times they get the wrong dog for their house and it winds up in a shelter and society blames it on the breed of dog, not the owner.

There is no such thing as a bad dog or breed (barring some medical issue that may crop up), there are only bad handlers...
Title: Re: Newest family member
Post by: betty on March 22, 2012, 05:47:01 PM
Well said messa. With larger breeds its best to socialize them. I took stuka to dayton with me. He loved meeting everyone and all the attention he got. I also encourage friends and family to bring their dogs over with them so my boys can play with them. My boys are great with other dogs no matter what size. My boys know I'm the pack leader. Before I got to bring stuka home I did research and training articles so I could make sure he was trained the right way. He also helped me train tank. I will say this about them....they are NOT very good at holding their licker :)