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General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Tupac on March 22, 2012, 10:04:58 PM

Title: Apache crash
Post by: Tupac on March 22, 2012, 10:04:58 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FguAOoUg3ZY&feature=player_embedded

That'll buff right out
Title: Re: Apache crash
Post by: curry1 on March 22, 2012, 10:30:24 PM
Reminds me of this video.

Oh Ye of Little Faith (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x4CQfaBGWSo)
Title: Re: Apache crash
Post by: F22RaptorDude on March 22, 2012, 10:50:18 PM
Ouch.... Sure that dude was in some deep bull poop
Title: Re: Apache crash
Post by: curry1 on March 22, 2012, 10:55:04 PM
Ouch.... Sure that dude was in some deep bull poop

He still is except not in the physical sense.  I don't think he will get fly again.  Unless it buffs out lol.
Title: Re: Apache crash
Post by: Tom5572 on March 23, 2012, 12:03:12 AM
The six guys right next to him when he slammed down probably need to change their shorts particularly the one he nearly hit. What a stupid stunt, endangering himself, his gunner but more importantly the guys he was there to protect. He will be paying off that bird for the rest of his life, pretty sure they will find him willfully negligent.
Title: Re: Apache crash
Post by: SFRT - Frenchy on March 23, 2012, 12:15:55 AM
Pressure altitude is a b@#$. :old:
Title: Re: Apache crash
Post by: MachFly on March 23, 2012, 12:22:29 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FguAOoUg3ZY&feature=player_embedded

That'll buff right out

Well...$h1t happens.
Title: Re: Apache crash
Post by: PR3D4TOR on March 23, 2012, 03:42:43 AM
Pressure altitude is a b@#$. :old:

+1
Title: Re: Apache crash
Post by: MachFly on March 23, 2012, 04:22:42 AM
Pressure altitude is a b@#$. :old:

Something is telling me that that maneuver is done visually.
Title: Re: Apache crash
Post by: Karnak on March 23, 2012, 07:26:57 AM
Helicopters do not handle altitude well, that may be a maneuver he has done many times down low and simply didn't account for the difference in handling up there.
Title: Re: Apache crash
Post by: JunkyII on March 23, 2012, 07:57:47 AM
Helicopters do not handle altitude well, that may be a maneuver he has done many times down low and simply didn't account for the difference in handling up there.
I've seen them do the same move many times, your right alt might have effected it.

Was this a show of force or just him checking on station? Anyone know?
Title: Re: Apache crash
Post by: Golfer on March 23, 2012, 08:37:36 AM
Something is telling me that that maneuver is done visually.


Which has what relevancy to density altitude being a b!&$h?

Showing off, returning to target and high DA = lucky to be alive. See how close they got to the guy on the ground when they pancaked in on the first impact? He's a lucky duck too.
Title: Re: Apache crash
Post by: PR3D4TOR on March 23, 2012, 08:40:11 AM
When the Soviets were in Afghanistan their helicopters needed a rolling takeoff just to get airborne from high-alt mountain bases.
Title: Re: Apache crash
Post by: MachFly on March 23, 2012, 09:19:48 AM

Which has what relevancy to density altitude being a b!&$h?


Don't know, your the first one here who said anything about density altitude.

I can understand why density altitude would effect the maneuver but it was absolutely nothing to do with my post.
Title: Re: Apache crash
Post by: MachFly on March 23, 2012, 09:21:13 AM
When the Soviets were in Afghanistan their helicopters needed a rolling takeoff just to get airborne from high-alt mountain bases.

You sure that's not just because they were carrying heavy loads? I know they do rolling takeoffs when carrying lots of cargo even at sea level.
Title: Re: Apache crash
Post by: colmbo on March 23, 2012, 09:22:32 AM
Don't know, your the first one here who said anything about density altitude.

I can understand why density altitude would effect the maneuver but it was absolutely nothing to do with my post.

Well, if he was used to making that move at lower elevations working off his visual cues then attempted to use the same visual cues at a higher density altitude.......
Title: Re: Apache crash
Post by: MachFly on March 23, 2012, 09:25:01 AM
Well, if he was used to making that move at lower elevations working off his visual cues then attempted to use the same visual cues at a higher density altitude.......

Yeah, I was responding to Golfer's question to my previous post.
Title: Re: Apache crash
Post by: PR3D4TOR on March 23, 2012, 09:30:04 AM
You sure that's not just because they were carrying heavy loads? I know they do rolling takeoffs when carrying lots of cargo even at sea level.

Even their Hinds needed rolling takeoffs carrying normal war loads.
Title: Re: Apache crash
Post by: MachFly on March 23, 2012, 09:31:47 AM
Even their Hinds needed rolling takeoffs carrying normal war loads.

What's a normal war load? Just fuel and missiles or troops too?
Title: Re: Apache crash
Post by: PR3D4TOR on March 23, 2012, 11:00:07 AM
Fuel and missiles. In a clean config the Hind has a flight ceiling of less than 15,000 feet. They were forced to fly at slower speeds too just to keep level flight, making themselves easier targets.
Title: Re: Apache crash
Post by: MachFly on March 23, 2012, 11:03:42 AM
Is 15K a lot for a helicopter?
Title: Re: Apache crash
Post by: SFRT - Frenchy on March 23, 2012, 11:10:07 AM
Don't know, your the first one here who said anything about density altitude.

I can understand why density altitude would effect the maneuver but it was absolutely nothing to do with my post.

When you said that maneuver is done visually I too thought it was in response to my pressure altitude comment, with you thinking  I though that he calibrated his altimeter wrong or something.
And to be technical, since this forum loves arguing over peanuts, it's not a far stretch to say that Pressure Altitude is higher than Density Altitude in this video.

Title: Re: Apache crash
Post by: PR3D4TOR on March 23, 2012, 11:12:25 AM
Is 15K a lot for a helicopter?

It's not stellar. By comparison a clean Apache has a ceiling of 21,000 feet.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZAPf3KbNIuU

Good doc on the Hind. Be weary of any info from the narrator, but there are many interesting interviews with Russian pilots and paratroopers, and the pilot of the U.S. OPFOR Hind.

Oh, and the title is wrong too... It's not from 1988.
Title: Re: Apache crash
Post by: MachFly on March 23, 2012, 11:15:32 AM
When you said that maneuver is done visually I too thought it was in response to my pressure altitude comment, with you thinking  I though that he calibrated his altimeter wrong or something.
And to be technical, since this forum loves arguing over peanuts, it's not a far stretch to say that Pressure Altitude is higher than Density Altitude in this video.



Yeah that's what I first thought but I did get what you said eventually (after I made the post).
Title: Re: Apache crash
Post by: MachFly on March 23, 2012, 11:17:00 AM
It's not stellar. By comparison a clean Apache has a ceiling of 21,000 feet.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZAPf3KbNIuU

Good doc on the Hind. Be weary of any info from the narrator, but there are many interesting interviews with Russian pilots and paratroopers, and the pilot of the U.S. OPFOR Hind.

Oh, and the title is wrong too... It's not from 1988.


I don't have time to watch it at the moment, but I will do it today.
Title: Re: Apache crash
Post by: PR3D4TOR on March 23, 2012, 11:29:23 AM
Oh and I forgot to mention the doc also has interviews with Afghan rebels that fought the Hind. All-in-all a very interesting episode of Wings.
Title: Re: Apache crash
Post by: GNucks on March 23, 2012, 02:06:20 PM
I'm having trouble imagining why a rotary wing aircraft might need forward speed to take off. From my understanding hovering should be the easiest task for a helicopter to do because all the lift from the rotors is directed straight up. Unless the fuselage design provides some inherent lift itself?
Title: Re: Apache crash
Post by: PR3D4TOR on March 23, 2012, 02:47:41 PM
Think how an autogyro works. Rotary wings are still wings and if you can build up some forward speed on the ground it helps lifting off. The Hind also have wings which provide 20-30% of the lift at speed.
Title: Re: Apache crash
Post by: SFRT - Frenchy on March 23, 2012, 02:59:19 PM
Gnuk, probably like thr Harriers, when fully loaded they use significantly less fuel when doing some short rolling take off rather than a pure vto.
Title: Re: Apache crash
Post by: eagl on March 23, 2012, 04:08:52 PM
I'm having trouble imagining why a rotary wing aircraft might need forward speed to take off. From my understanding hovering should be the easiest task for a helicopter to do because all the lift from the rotors is directed straight up. Unless the fuselage design provides some inherent lift itself?

Helicopters gain a lot of "translational lift" in forward flight.  This is significantly more lift than gained from the rotor blades in a stationary hover.

I also suspect that the high altitude played a part in the incident...  The visual cues may have been fine for that same maneuver accomplished at low alt but the turn radius will be larger and available lift is usually going to be lower at higher altitudes so you need more margin for the maneuvers.

The USAF has nearly 100 years of experience telling us that it's a dumb idea to hot-dog at low altitude, and we've been pretty harsh on pilots who get caught doing this kind of thing in the last 20 or so years.  I suppose the Army has a little different perspective on such things.
Title: Re: Apache crash
Post by: G0ALY on March 23, 2012, 04:10:12 PM
I'm having trouble imagining why a rotary wing aircraft might need forward speed to take off. From my understanding hovering should be the easiest task for a helicopter to do because all the lift from the rotors is directed straight up. Unless the fuselage design provides some inherent lift itself?

Here is my understanding… The rotor blade of a hovering helicopter is continuously encountering the turbulence and vortexes left behind from the blade in front of it. However, if a helicopter is moving forward, the ’fresh’ or ’clean’ air allows the rotor blade to more efficiently produce lift.

Title: Re: Apache crash
Post by: Spork on March 23, 2012, 05:02:01 PM
Here is my understanding… The rotor blade of a hovering helicopter is continuously encountering the turbulence and vortexes left behind from the blade in front of it. However, if a helicopter is moving forward, the ’fresh’ or ’clean’ air allows the rotor blade to more efficiently produce lift.



Hovering in a helicopter is actually the most power demanding operation it can do. The reason is pretty much stated above but there is another thing that is working against you when you are hovering, wing tip vortices. Even fixed wing aircraft have wing tip vortices, however, obviously they only move forward so it doesn't generally effect their performace.

With rotary-wing aircraft, you still create wing tip vortices, however when you are hovering or travelling beneath ETL(Effective Translational Lift), you are not outside of them. What happens in that case is you do not have the full rotor span creating lift for you. The "wing tips" and the "root" of the blade are cycling through "dirty air", or their own vortices. What is essentially happening is that the wing tips and the root of the rotor disc are stalled and the only portions of the blade creating lift is the middle portion. Because of this it, hovering is the most power intensive operation for helicopters.

In addition, there is the tail rotor RPM requirements and that puts stress on the engine that can result in Loss of Tailrotor Effectivness while in a hover and there is Settling with Power but I won't get into those unless someone wants to know.
Title: Re: Apache crash
Post by: Seanaldinho on March 23, 2012, 08:26:32 PM
Is it possible he was asked to do this? For a morale sort of thing. Ive seen it done before by a blackhawk and its flat awesome.
Title: Re: Apache crash
Post by: MK-84 on March 23, 2012, 08:47:46 PM
Is it possible he was asked to do this? For a morale sort of thing. Ive seen it done before by a blackhawk and its flat awesome.

I suspect considering that these pilots are trained for combat, they are encouraged (to a degree) to push their aircraft.  I'm not certain we should scold the pilot for being reckless and unsafe...considering what his job is.  If we did that universally, every pilot that lands on an aircraft carrier is an idiot too ;)

Was he showing off, probably...but I dont know if that qualifies him as the badguy vs. the guy who made a mistake with crappy consequences.
Title: Re: Apache crash
Post by: USRanger on March 23, 2012, 08:59:32 PM
I think the pilot has been through enough already just living through that crash.  He probably doesn't want to fly again after that!  It's absolutely crazy that there were no deaths.
Title: Re: Apache crash
Post by: Volron on March 23, 2012, 09:15:21 PM
I don't think they will let him fly anything after that, except maybe a desk.  It's obvious that it was messed up after the initial impact, but what definitely sealed it was when the tail struck an embankment shortly after it, taking the tip off.  I'm surprised that either of them survived considering.
Title: Re: Apache crash
Post by: Wildcat1 on March 23, 2012, 09:20:59 PM
Considering the incredible amount of gyration when the tail rotor struck, It's amazing there were no injuries.
Title: Re: Apache crash
Post by: ozrocker on March 24, 2012, 07:51:43 AM
When the Soviets were in Afghanistan their helicopters needed a rolling takeoff just to get airborne from high-alt mountain bases.
Hinds do not hover, large weight of ship and weapons= rolling takeoff
They can take off vertically, but due to payloads usually roll for lift.

Those guys have to be thankful for the snow, if it was exposed rock -Boom
                                                                                                                            :cheers: Oz
Title: Re: Apache crash
Post by: B4Buster on March 24, 2012, 06:01:08 PM
Holy crap, that was a bit tough to watch. I can't believe nobody got killed.
Title: Re: Apache crash
Post by: Tupac on March 24, 2012, 06:06:06 PM
I think the pilot has been through enough already just living through that crash.  He probably doesn't want to fly again after that!  It's absolutely crazy that there were no deaths.

Dunno, if someone loves flying it will take alot to keep them away.
Title: Re: Apache crash
Post by: JunkyII on March 26, 2012, 08:00:32 AM
Dunno, if someone loves flying it will take alot to keep them away.
Near death incidents have a way of changing the things we love....