Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: olds442 on April 06, 2012, 01:11:23 PM
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hope every one is ok. http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/lookout/u-navy-jet-crashes-virginia-2-pilots-believed-174703258.html
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Just saw this a few minutes ago when JEMS (Journal of Emergency Medical Services) posted it on facebook.
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I really can't believe the pilot did that. As a pilot its our job to make sure you dont hurt anyone on the ground - You accepted the risk the moment you stepped in that airplane, but everyone you are flying over did not. It's inexcusable - just like miramar.
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I really can't believe the pilot did that. As a pilot its our job to make sure you dont hurt anyone on the ground - You accepted the risk the moment you stepped in that airplane, but everyone you are flying over did not. It's inexcusable - just like miramar.
I think it would be wise to know more details before making statements like that. Just sayin'
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I think it would be wise to know more details before making statements like that. Just sayin'
Unless the plane was absolutely uncontrollable it is inexcusable. I feel pretty strongly about stuff like this.
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Unless the plane was absolutely uncontrollable it is inexcusable. I feel pretty strongly about stuff like this.
Good for you, I do too.. Fact is nobody knows all the details at this point, but it sounds like they ejected at a very very low altitude. Faced with no other options, what would you do? Eject or die? Just saying lets wait to hear what happened before blaming the pilots for crashing their plane in a less than ideal place. Accidents happen.
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If I had options that could save myself, but put others at risk, or an option that would minimize risk to others but most likely mean the end of me, I would choose the latter.
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If I had options that could save myself, but put others at risk, or an option that would minimize risk to others but most likely mean the end of me, I would choose the latter.
And I'm sure they had the same philosophy, as do 99.99% of all pilots. These are trained military officers, not a couple of ultra melons goofing off on a Sunday afternoon.
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If I had options that could save myself, but put others at risk, or an option that would minimize risk to others but most likely mean the end of me, I would choose the latter.
So says the White Knight from the safety of his keyboard.
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So says the White Knight from the safety of his keyboard.
When the cockpit of the 210 started filling up with smoke my first thought was to make sure if I went down I wouldnt hurt anyone on the ground.
But keep on talking, princess.
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I'm done, if it turns out they didnt have any control - I resend my remarks. If they did, you all know how I feel.
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When the cockpit of the 210 started filling up with smoke my first thought was to make sure if I went down I wouldnt hurt anyone on the ground.
But keep on talking, princess.
Please regale us with more tales of your epic bravado! Every time a plane goes down you're in here while the wreckage is still smoldering telling everyone what idiots the pilots were, and how much more 13373r you would have been than them. Hell we should just fire the NTSB and save the millions the government spends on crash investigations since we have super squeaker right here that is apparently omnipotent when it comes to aircraft wrecks.
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Please regale us with more tales of your epic bravado! Every time a plane goes down you're in here while the wreckage is still smoldering telling everyone what idiots the pilots were, and how much more 13373r you would have been than them. Hell we should just fire the NTSB and save the millions the government spends on crash investigations since we have super squeaker right here that is apparently omnipotent when it comes to aircraft wrecks.
How many hours do you have? Have you ever landed a plane, have you ever declared an emergency?
piss off cheryl
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Please regale us with more tales of your epic bravado! Every time a plane goes down you're in here while the wreckage is still smoldering telling everyone what idiots the pilots were, and how much more 13373r you would have been than them. Hell we should just fire the NTSB and save the millions the government spends on crash investigations since we have super squeaker right here that is apparently omnipotent when it comes to aircraft wrecks.
Also PLEASE tell find me another thread where I said the pilots were idiots. It happens very rarely. In fact, besides this one I think I have only other done it once.
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http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,331702.0.html
not the pilots fault
http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,331554.0.html
great job to the pilot
anyways, I'm not going to do any more searching. You can do your own research.
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Calm down Tupac, the story is not even a day old. Not even the investigators on site know what happened yet, this may not be anything like the Miramar situation.
It's just as likely that the pilot and backseater where in a situation where the aircraft was going in whether they stayed with it or not.
Fighter pilots don't take ejecting from an aircraft lightly. An interesting statistic I heard the other day from a friend who was an Air Force F4 pilot is that in combat areas F4 ejections had a 95% survival rate, while in non-combat/peacetime only 80%. The reasoning behind the statistics is that there is no negative stigma attached to bailing out of a plane that is all shot to hell in a warzone, fact is they will likely pin a medal on your chest for it. But if you're bailing out in peacetime odds are it's because you screwed something up and rather then get a medal you're likely to lose your job and be publicly humiliated, and so you're more likely to hang with it longer, sometimes too long.
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nothing to see here move along.
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You said you were done. Now go auger so I can talk about what a chitty pilot you are and how I would have done it better.
You're an ass.
Sit down and rotate, oh wait.......you would enjoy that. Ass.
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Calm down Tupac, the story is not even a day old. Not even the investigators on site know what happened yet, this may not be anything like the Miramar situation.
It's just as likely that the pilot and backseater where in a situation where the aircraft was going in whether they stayed with it or not.
Fighter pilots don't take ejecting from an aircraft lightly. An interesting statistic I heard the other day from a friend who was an Air Force F4 pilot is that in combat areas F4 ejections had a 95% survival rate, while in non-combat/peacetime only 80%. The reasoning behind the statistics is that there is no negative stigma attached to bailing out of a plane that is all shot to hell in a warzone, fact is they will likely pin a medal on your chest for it. But if you're bailing out in peacetime odds are it's because you screwed something up and rather then get a medal you're likely to lose your job and be publicly humiliated, and so you're more likely to hang with it longer, sometimes too long.
Hmmm, that is a good point. I must deliberate further, but my opinion (and from postings on another forum) is being changed.
Except that Tec is an ass. That fact needs no more deliberation.
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i r t3h meanie
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I've seen your pic, you shouldn't be telling gay jokes.
Big talk coming from someone without enough balls to post their own.
Suffice to say I'm way ahead of wherever the hell you were when you were 17.
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Can just feel the love here :rofl
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Why dont you post yours? People who live in glass houses.......
Because I'm one ugly fugger.
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Can just feel the love here :rofl
:cheers:
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When the cockpit of the 210 started filling up with smoke my first thought was to make sure if I went down I wouldnt hurt anyone on the ground.
But keep on talking, princess.
Again good for you. I'm sure the same thought went through the F-18 pilots heads when they declared an emergency (if they had time)
Every emergency or crash is different, but somehow you think your emergency was because now since you lived and didn't hurt anyone, you seem to feel you have the right to point the finger..
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Someone on another forum posted this picture
(http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5195/6905176712_ce54a8b70e_o.jpg)
and said Having been in the F-18 community for a while, this picture tells me a lot. For one the VEN(variable exhaust nozzle on the left size is closed, indicating that the engine was most likely shut down. The full open VEN on the right indicates it was probably in full AB.
and then went on to say that (and Im paraphrasing here) If he had just taken off and was at a steep angle low to the ground, its possible he stalled and spun which would mean as low to the ground as he was he had no way to control the plane. OEI isnt bueno for spin recovery.
I jumped to conclusions and made myself look like an ass. Happy everyone? I'm going to stop digging now.
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I jumped to conclusions and made myself look like an ass. Happy everyone? I'm going to stop digging now.
Yes, and I'm sorry for winding you up, but once the snowball got rolling it grew pretty quick.
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Yes, and I'm sorry for winding you up, but once the snowball got rolling it grew pretty quick.
and I apologize for what I said. It was hurtful and uncalled for. I woke up with a gnarly headache today (I'm allergic to 2 things, Cedar and Oak pollen. Oak is really really high) and has made me grumbly and irritable. I lose the filter between my brain and mouth (or brain and fingers in this case)
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Tec and Tupac - I think you're both cool dudes, hate to see you arguing.
Reading a comment on the article*, apparently a fire was noticed off the (left?) wing prior to ejection.
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Tec and Tupac - I think you're both cool dudes, hate to see you arguing.
And I think you're pretty rad too.
Quick, someone be mean, we're dangerously close to busting out into kumbaya here.
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:rock
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You save your own self.
If you save people on the ground a grisly event, then that's a bonus.
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And I think you're pretty rad too.
Quick, someone be mean, we're dangerously close to busting out into kumbaya here.
You are a meanie. NO I'm sorry!
(http://media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m21b65sEEV1r0dl8p.gif)
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I really can't believe the pilot did that. As a pilot its our job to make sure you dont hurt anyone on the ground
Big talk from someone who wasn't in the aircraft and has no idea what happened or why. It's a bit early to start pointing fingers. Shame on you.
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If I had options that could save myself, but put others at risk, or an option that would minimize risk to others but most likely mean the end of me, I would choose the latter.
Yeah right. Have you ever been in that kind of situation? If not you're just banging your gums together and making senseless noise.
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Big talk from someone who wasn't in the aircraft and has no idea what happened or why. It's a bit early to start pointing fingers. Shame on you.
Read on
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How many hours do you have?
A lot more than you.
Have you ever landed a plane,
A lot more than you.
have you ever declared an emergency?
A lot more than you
Tupac, you're digging a real deep hole here. Truth is you are very inexperienced.
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Yeah right. Have you ever been in that kind of situation? If not you're just banging your gums together and making senseless noise.
Like I said, when the cockpit of the 210 started smoking up my first thought was for people on the ground. Now, I was over mostly farmland so if the engine had quit I would have been able to land.
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A lot more than you.
A lot more than you.
A lot more than you
Tupac, you're digging a real deep hole here. Truth is you are very inexperienced.
Read on.
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You save your own self.
If you save people on the ground a grisly event, then that's a bonus.
Chuck Yeager said that same thing. No such thing as "saving the school kids", the pilot is doing his best to save himself which in most cases also protects those on the ground.
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I really can't believe the pilot did that. As a pilot its our job to make sure you dont hurt anyone on the ground - You accepted the risk the moment you stepped in that airplane, but everyone you are flying over did not. It's inexcusable - just like miramar.
Do you like your crow medium or well done?
Think before you open your mouth. THIS is exactly the kind of BS you don't need to be spouting.
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Do you like your crow medium or well done?
Think before you open your mouth. THIS is exactly the kind of BS you don't need to be spouting.
Golfer would have aimed it for my house I know it deep down.....<G>
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Like I said, when the cockpit of the 210 started smoking up my first thought was for people on the ground. Now, I was over mostly farmland so if the engine had quit I would have been able to land.
(http://i538.photobucket.com/albums/ff345/martinguitarist/96f6a138.jpg)
This chart should mean something to you someday.
And BS. Your first thought wasn't of the people on the ground. Your 14th thought wasn't even of the people on the ground.
If, and it's a big freaking if, the failure occurred as you say it did you wound up very lucky in a situation you would have been able to get ahead of with more than a quick "here's the gear handle" checkout.
Still that's one abnormality in your whole 400 hours of experience. In single engine light airplanes. You haven't even begin to scare yourself, ace.
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Golfer would have aimed it for my house I know it deep down.....<G>
Only because I'd be able to find booze and sheep close by. :)
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Update at 1:49 p.m. ET: Former Navy SEAL Patrick McAleenan was a block away when the plane crashed and says the sound was unmistakable and that the walls of his home shook, Navy Times reports.
He tells Navy Times' Joshua Stewart that the pilots ejected at the last possible second in an apparent effort to make sure that the plane would not crash into a nearby school.
"One of them, literally, his parachute hung on a balcony. The people on the ground were dragging him to safety," he says.
Tupac,
These guys got out of the airplane low enough yet didn't separate from their seats. If you dont realize it, thats really freaking low and late. Oceana has nowhere to go if you're not high enough to make the beach if you're departing northeast and the only thing there is to do is see where you're going to end up.
The pilots apologized to the residents and once clear of any life threatening injuries their thoughts turned to those on the ground. In a daze, apologizing and being cared for by the very residents who this far have come out without any fatal injuries.
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Someone on another forum posted this picture
(http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5195/6905176712_ce54a8b70e_o.jpg)
and said
and then went on to say that (and Im paraphrasing here) If he had just taken off and was at a steep angle low to the ground, its possible he stalled and spun which would mean as low to the ground as he was he had no way to control the plane. OEI isnt bueno for spin recovery.
I jumped to conclusions and made myself look like an ass. Happy everyone? I'm going to stop digging now.
and I apologize for what I said. It was hurtful and uncalled for. I woke up with a gnarly headache today (I'm allergic to 2 things, Cedar and Oak pollen. Oak is really really high) and has made me grumbly and irritable. I lose the filter between my brain and mouth (or brain and fingers in this case)
Some of you seem to have missed these posts.... Granted he could've gone about it better.
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Pictures of the tail (a horrible guage for true size) kinda looks like a large F (super), but all I've read so far cite it was an older D.
About adding speculations to the speculating - the rear nozzles are hydrolicly/actuated controlled I believe, could of been a hydrolic problem (amongst bigger issues), also they're rather easily manipulated by outside factors... a fancy way of saying they're more flimbsy and movable than you first might assume. Also, and another honest assumption I'm making from observation, having watched and walked a couple feet from an acutal F-18 pilot doing his pre-flight.... 99.99% of the time, people who "know", is a fancy term for "good guess".
I gon dun now one ting fur sure - a crash that hard would do a little more than rearange a couple Navy pilot's "nozzles", if chya now wut I meen.
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(http://i538.photobucket.com/albums/ff345/martinguitarist/96f6a138.jpg)
This chart should mean something to you someday.
And BS. Your first thought wasn't of the people on the ground. Your 14th thought wasn't even of the people on the ground.
If, and it's a big freaking if, the failure occurred as you say it did you wound up very lucky in a situation you would have been able to get ahead of with more than a quick "here's the gear handle" checkout.
Still that's one abnormality in your whole 400 hours of experience. In single engine light airplanes. You haven't even begin to scare yourself, ace.
If you knew me in real life you would know I'm not a liar. I've scared myself plenty of times in a damn airplane, and you aren't in a position to judge as you have never flown with me or even know secondhand anyone who has flown with me. I've offered to go for a $100 hamburger next time you're in town, and I got no reply. If I posted everytime I scared myself in an airplane id be posting ALOT more. You said the same things when I was a student pilot as you are saying now. When will I be worthy O master of all things skybound?
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But go ahead and keep judging my flying ability that you know NOTHING ABOUT. I'd be happy to give you multiple references of people who HAVE flown with me, and do have a clue about what I know and don't know. Join PoA and send Jesse a message. I've got more time with him than any other instructor (either 100 hours or darn close)
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If I had options that could save myself, but put others at risk, or an option that would minimize risk to others but most likely mean the end of me, I would choose the latter.
was watching a video of a man who claimed he had fuel dumped on his vehicle. last i knew jet fuel is HIGHLY volatle... less fuel that burns means less people getting harmed. not just civilians, but firemen ems and police on scene. also, the pilot managed to hit one building, and he could have hit any amount, pretty good if i do say so myself.
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was watching a video of a man who claimed he had fuel dumped on his vehicle. last i knew jet fuel is HIGHLY volatle... less fuel that burns means less people getting harmed. not just civilians, but firemen ems and police on scene. also, the pilot managed to hit one building, and he could have hit any amount, pretty good if i do say so myself.
I agree, however if Jet A is anything like 100LL it evaporates very quickly and there is no more risk of fire
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I agree, however if Jet A is anything like 100LL it evaporates very quickly and there is no more risk of fire
It isn't anything like 100LL. It's Kerosene. More like Diesel fuel.
You're proving my point by the way about opening your mouth when you shouldn't. I've never said a word about your flying ability. What I do question is what's between your ears.
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If there was something wrong with what was between my ears I would already be dead.
You can ask Jesse about that too. I stayed with him and his girlfriend while I was getting my IR.
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was watching a video of a man who claimed he had fuel dumped on his vehicle. last i knew jet fuel is HIGHLY volatle...
Jet A/kerosene/diesel is actually much less volatile then 100LL or even mogas. Which is why it works a lot better for high altitude flight. I don't remember the exact RVP numbers but it is pretty big difference.
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You said the same things when I was a student pilot as you are saying now.
Why do you think that might be? Keep in mind I don't know you personally and my only exposure is how you conduct yourself and the things you say here.
I never called you a liar. I'm saying you very likely didn't recognize something you should have due to deficiencies in training, systems knowledge and minimal experience. I think testament to your flying ability (and good fortune) is you wound up safe. If you still haven't gone back to think about how fortunate you are to have had any fluid at all after your o ring blew (and ability to lower the gear) that's your business. I'd suggest now as I did then go review your actions and debrief with your checkout instructor that nights events. If all you're getting is "good job" then they're doing you a disservice. Now that it's over, it's time to learn to do better. Objectively and without taking critique personally like you have a pattern of doing.
And I've been to San Antonio 2 times in 4 years. I'm not in the neighborhood to drop you a line.
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If there was something wrong with what was between my ears I would already be dead.
I'm going to make you a scrapbook and send it to you in 10 years. You'll be ashamed of yourself.
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Says our heroic 400 hour teenage wonder kid.
I'm going to make you a scrapbook and send it to you in 10 years. You'll be ashamed of yourself.
I've got 20 hours in actual without an autopilot. 12 of those solo - Ive flown all over middle part of the country and just recently got back from flying myself to Florida. (9.5 hours there and 9.2 back) Beleive me, I have had more than 1 opportunity to kill myself. I've only ever been in a bad situation weather wise once, and that was partly due to a bad weather briefing and not having any sort of onboard weather. That even turned out to be a non-event because I just landed at the closest airport and waited it out. I need to learn when to shut my mouth, but my 400 hours aren't in the pattern. Most of them are cross country, some in marginal weather. My decision making skills have prevented me from getting in too much trouble.
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I've got 20 hours in actual without an autopilot. 12 of those solo - Ive flown all over middle part of the country and just recently got back from flying myself to Florida. (9.5 hours there and 9.2 back) Beleive me, I have had more than 1 opportunity to kill myself. I've only ever been in a bad situation weather wise once, and that was partly due to a bad weather briefing and not having any sort of onboard weather. That even turned out to be a non-event because I just landed at the closest airport and waited it out. I need to learn when to shut my mouth, but my 400 hours aren't in the pattern. Most of them are cross country, some in marginal weather. My decision making skills have prevented me from getting in too much trouble.
That's going in the scrapbook too.
Complacency is with you like the Force is with Luke Skywalker. Strong.
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That's going in the scrapbook too.
Complacency is with you like the Force is with Luke Skywalker. Strong.
You're the only person I've ever talked with who says I'm complacent.
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I guess you aren't on jetcareers, I was on there last night talking about a CFI and his technique that he teaches students after an engine failure. I felt as if it encouraged complacency and too much reliance on the parachute. (it wa a Cirrus)
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This thread should be banned but a couple nuggets.
First, Tupac jumped to quick. Then Tec and Tupac sorted it out. Then a few others jumped on Tupac after Tupac ate crow and sorted it out. Then...
Then Golfer posted the picture of 2012 that I am going to send to many of my friends for a hundred different reasons for years to come. 'Shit they know, *shit they know they don't know and everything else.' I love it!!!
Thanks Golfer. As for everything else, it's sorted out. Now onto another thread.
Boo
PS Golfer, if you have any more nuggets share. Curry has a good one with a cat and bacon, random. Yours gives deep meaning to every debate I've ever had in life.
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Maybe I'm the only one who is actually telling you. Keep in mind my only exposure to who "you" are is how you act and what you say. If I'm arriving at that conclusion based soley on your actions wouldn't you thing it's worth giving some consideration into the why/how.
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Maybe I'm the only one who is actually telling you. Keep in mind my only exposure to who "you" are is how you act and what you say. If I'm arriving at that conclusion based soley on your actions wouldn't you thing it's worth giving some consideration into the why/how.
I have difficulty putting my thoughts into text and would gladly talk to you on the phone - then you can hear ton of voice and whatnot. Text isn't a very good communication source.
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awesome how this turned into a tupac vs multiple tard fest. Tupac ate his crow and admitted to jumping to conclusions the rest of you forgot hes a kid, didnt you think you knew everything when you were a kid? Tupac it would help if you stopped jumping to conclusions you did it twice here with your OP then with the fuel question.
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I have difficulty putting my thoughts into text and would gladly talk to you on the phone - then you can hear ton of voice and whatnot. Text isn't a very good communication source.
I think that's an excuse and you're rationalizing to save face in your mind. Remember that word when you start training for your FOI written test.
You write just fine. It's what you write that gets your foot in your mouth not how you write it.
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I think that's an excuse and you're rationalizing to save face in your mind. Remember that word when you start training for your FOI written test.
You write just fine. It's what you write that gets your foot in your mouth not how you write it.
I'm picking up my study books for CFI and FOI soon. Like I said, if you want I can give you my number and we can chat on the phone.
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Curry has a good one with a cat and bacon, random.
wat
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Meh nevermind
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I guess you aren't on jetcareers, I was on there last night talking about a CFI and his technique that he teaches students after an engine failure. I felt as if it encouraged complacency and too much reliance on the parachute. (it wa a Cirrus)
Don't even go there or I'll rip you apart
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Tupac, everything you say is going in the scrapbook. If you reply to him, scrapbook. If you say something about your last flight, scrapbook. If you say you don't like bronies, scrapbook. In fact, scrap the scrapbook, he's just going to do a O'Club forum search on April 5th 2022 for all posts by Tupac, and send it to you. And then you'll be sooo ashamed.
If I ever decide to take up flying, I sure as hell am not going to tell anyone here.
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If I ever decide to take up flying, I sure as hell am not going to tell anyone here.
That's odd. I think you'd find this group knowledgeable, diverse, supportive, encouraging and willing to help.
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I hit that first post out of the park on the Krustyometer.
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you aren't in a position to judge as you have never flown with me or even know secondhand anyone who has flown with me.
but you were in a position to judge the two crew members on their actions just after a few initial reports came about? :headscratch: Meet Mr. Kettle...
Two weeks ago a plane lost its engine on short final at my airport. It crash landed in the valley right beneath the runway threshold on a road. The initial reports from the news were that a plane hit power lines on landing making it completely sound like pilot error... Hardly anything close to the truth and what happened. They did indeed clip the lines however, but they managed to put that plane down in a strech of road just 200ft long without hitting the cars parked in the driveways and 3 houses and also the trees.
The diamond was destroyed from hitting the lines and the student pilot was injured with a broken vertebra in her spine, the instructor was ok though.
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Came to see if any news has been released on the crash, saw every airderp I've wandered by on the BBS wrap themselves up in an argument that would embarrass a 5-year-old, went shaking my head.
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I'm not a big fan of commenting in such threads, this is because most of the time we have a whole bunch of people discussing what they know absolutely nothing about. You guys remember that F-22 crash in Alaska last year and how everyone was screaming that it's oxygen system does not work, well when the report finally came out it said nothing about it's oxygen system as that was not the cause. So in this case I recommend we just wait a year or so until the report finally comes out and then discuss it.
For now I'm just going to say "$h1t happens" and I'd certainly like to read that report (when it comes out).
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F-22 fighter jets retrofitted after Alaska crash
Published March 20, 2012 | Associated Press
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The Air Force is replacing handles that engage the F-22 Raptor fighter jet's emergency oxygen system after pilots reported feeling lightheaded and the death of a captain whose $143 million aircraft took a nosedive into a mountain range in Alaska.
Capt. Jeffrey Haney was killed in November 2010 during a night mission about 100 miles north of Anchorage. An accident investigation found that the plane's controls and switches contributed to the crash, particularly an emergency oxygen system activation ring on the back edge of the ejection seat.
The report found that the two-step process to manually activate the system required the pilot to pull the green ring up and out of the retaining slot and then pull it directly forward. The Air Force says the latter move may have the same force as pulling a 40- or more pound weight.
While the ring is attached to the seat by a lanyard, if it is dropped it can fall between the seats, making it difficult to retrieve, especially if the pilot is flying at night and wearing bulky winter clothing.
The problem with the system was identified by an independent scientific advisory board that studied the jet's safety issues. It was identified as one of the critical items to be fixed, according to public affairs at Luke Air Force Base in Arizona, which came up with the new, safer handles.
The modification makes it easier for the pilot to access the handle, the military says. The Air Force has ordered 200 handles at a cost of $47 each. They have already been installed in Joint Base Elmendorf-Richardson's 40 F-22s, the Anchorage base that Haney, 31, was attempting to return to when he crashed during a night-time training mission.
The new handles also provide a better grip, especially when the pilot is wearing cold weather gear, according to information provided by Luke Air Force Base.
Haney's widow has filed a wrongful death lawsuit against Lockheed Martin Corp. that claims the plane's onboard oxygen delivery system, among other things, is defective.
The lawsuit also says the mechanism for activating the emergency backup oxygen system is underneath and behind the pilot and impossible to reach while flying at supersonic speeds.
The lawsuit says the Lockheed Martin plane "did not safely or properly provide breathable oxygen to the pilot operating the aircraft."
Investigators found that the on-board oxygen generating system on Haney's plane automatically stopped working after air leaks were detected in the ducts of both engines.
The report says airflow would have stopped to the pilot's mask, causing severe restricted breathing. But, it says, that instead of activating the emergency oxygen system, Haney focused on restoring airflow to the mask and keeping the plane from taking a dive.
The report says that Haney's death was not hypoxia-related because he was conscious while struggling with the plane and never activated the emergency oxygen system.
Haney's death was tragic and the company sympathizes with the family, Lockheed Martin spokeswoman Stephanie Stinn said Tuesday.
"We are aware that a complaint that makes a variety of claims associated with the accident has been filed with the court in Cook County, IL. We do not agree with those allegations and we will respond to them through the appropriate legal process," she said in an email.
The Air Force's entire fleet was placed on temporary stand-down last summer and an investigation ensued after numerous pilots reported lightheadedness and other symptoms consistent with not receiving enough oxygen. The planes were returned to service in mid-September, but there have been more reports of hypoxia-like events.
Three F-22 pilots at Joint Base Elmendorf-Richardson experienced "physiological incidents" in February, said base spokeswoman Corinna M. Jones. In each case, the pilot activated the plane's emergency oxygen system, she said.
John Noonan, a spokesman for Rep. Howard P. "Buck" McKeon, R-Calif., chairman of the House Armed Services Committee, said that the chairman is still looking for a "smoking gun" to explain what could be problems with the Raptor's oxygen delivery system.
"They are modifying some aircraft with environmental monitors and they have other pilots wearing O2 sensors," Noonan said in an email.
He said baseline blood work has been done of every pilot flying the F-22s "so if they do come back after an oxygen incident, they might be able to see what's changed in that particular pilot."
Besides the Anchorage base, the remainder of the nation's 170 F-22 Raptors are stationed at Joint Base Pearl Harbor-Hickam, Hawaii; Joint Base Langley-Eustis, Va.; Nellis Air Force Base, Nev.; Holloman Air Force Base, N.M.; and Tyndall Air Force Base, Fla.
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Read more: http://www.foxnews.com/us/2012/03/20/f-22-fighter-jets-retrofitted-after-alaska-crash/print#ixzz1rMAmf8gG
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Unless the plane was absolutely uncontrollable it is inexcusable. I feel pretty strongly about stuff like this.
i read that it was on fire.
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How many hours do you have? Have you ever landed a plane, have you ever declared an emergency?
piss off cheryl
personally, i've landed at night with full electrical system failure, and once in the daytime had a partial engine failure on takeoff.
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also.......didn't they build kinda too close to this air station?
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Personally, I've landed with a beer in my hand like at row 34, near the bathroom. I clapped and said hell yeah.
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Personally, I've landed with a beer in my hand like at row 34, near the bathroom. I clapped and said hell yeah.
:rofl :rofl
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When the cockpit of the 210 started filling up with smoke my first thought was to make sure if I went down I wouldnt hurt anyone on the ground.
But keep on talking, princess.
That's always good. You have no other option like parachute or ejection seat.... it is the only option.
I'd wait for more info. We know there was something catastropic happened to the plane.
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Here's the result of waiting too long......
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RNVOjKSrEQ4&feature=youtube_gdata_player
Here's one that worked out better...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=br1poSaupOs&feature=youtube_gdata_player
Unless, you were there, in the cockpit, you don't know the facts and the time pressure they experienced.
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Here's the result of waiting too long......
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RNVOjKSrEQ4&feature=youtube_gdata_player
True that.
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http://usaf.aib.law.af.mil/ExecSum2011/F-22A_AK_ExecSum_16%20Nov%2010.pdf (http://usaf.aib.law.af.mil/ExecSum2011/F-22A_AK_ExecSum_16%20Nov%2010.pdf)
Think this source is a more reliable than foxnews.
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Totally different entities doing their investigations.
Ok.
Pentagon to review report blaming JBER F-22 pilot for crash
Published: February 9th, 2012 09:01 AM
From The Air Force Times:
In an unusual and perhaps unprecedented move, the inspector general for the U.S. Department of Defense will review an Air Force report that blames Capt. Jeffrey Haney for the fatal 2010 crash of his F-22 fighter north of Anchorage -- even though the jet has been beset by problems and complaints from pilots.
The Air Force's investigation blamed Haney for the crash, saying that Haney didn't react quickly enough to activate the jet's emergency oxygen system or recover from a dive he entered into as he struggled to breathe. However, the report also confirms that a malfunction occurred in the Raptor's bleed air intakes, which caused an automatic shutdown of multiple aircraft functions that included the F-22's primary oxygen system.
In the letter to [Air Force Secretary Michael] Donley, an IG official wrote that the agency will "focus on the adherence of the [Aircraft Investigation Board] to the procedures set forth in Air Force Instruction (AFI) 51-503, ‘Aerospace Accident Investigations.' Our assessment will also verify that AIB conclusions are supported by evidence of record consistent with standards of proof established by AFI 51-503," he wrote.
Haney's friends and relatives have criticized the Air Force for its crash report conclusions, reports ABC News.
Read more here: http://www.adn.com/2012/02/09/230825...#storylink=cpy
And:
Haney's inability to pull the handle during his fatal accident was one of the issues cited in an accident investigation report released by the Air Force in December.
In a detailed, minute-by-minute account, investigators found that Haney's oxygen supply was stopped automatically after the onboard computers detected an air leak in the engine bay. The aircraft system shut down the oxygen system to protect itself from further damage, as designed.
To save himself and the plane, Haney, wearing bulky cold-weather gear, should have leaned over and, with a gloved hand, pulled a green ring that was under his seat beside his left leg to engage the emergency system, the report said.
In the end, the Air Force blamed the accident on Haney's "channelized attention" to get oxygen through his mask instead of engaging the emergency system, which led to factors that contributed to the crash, the report said.
In her lawsuit, Haney's widow contends that the plane was "designed, manufactured, distributed and sold with a dangerous and defective backup oxygen system, which could only be activated manually, and whose manual activation mechanism was located underneath and behind the pilot."
The suit said the handle's location was "in an area impossible for a pilot to reach while he or she maneuvered the sophisticated aircraft at speeds exceeding the speed of sound and while he or she experienced forces many times the force of gravity."
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http://usaf.aib.law.af.mil/ExecSum2011/F-22A_AK_ExecSum_16%20Nov%2010.pdf (http://usaf.aib.law.af.mil/ExecSum2011/F-22A_AK_ExecSum_16%20Nov%2010.pdf)
Think this source is a more reliable than foxnews.
Foxnews typically concentrates more on hysteria than the facts.
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This has got to be one of the most disappointing threads on this forum.
I'm just glad everyone survived. Kinda surprising after seeing that fire.
:salute to the pilot.
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(http://i538.photobucket.com/albums/ff345/martinguitarist/96f6a138.jpg)
This chart should mean something to you someday.
And BS. Your first thought wasn't of the people on the ground. Your 14th thought wasn't even of the people on the ground.
If, and it's a big freaking if, the failure occurred as you say it did you wound up very lucky in a situation you would have been able to get ahead of with more than a quick "here's the gear handle" checkout.
Still that's one abnormality in your whole 400 hours of experience. In single engine light airplanes. You haven't even begin to scare yourself, ace.
I find this thread hilarious. Old men bashing youngsters; didn't your mother ever teach you? If you don't have anything nice to say, don't say it. ;)
And as for the topic, those pilots should be awarded. Staying in the aircraft past the point that their own lives are at stake to try and reduce damage down below? Someone get two wheelbarrows, those men need something to carry their balls with/in. :rock
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The suit said the handle's location was "in an area impossible for a pilot to reach while he or she maneuvered the sophisticated aircraft at speeds exceeding the speed of sound and while he or she experienced forces many times the force of gravity."
Except he was not maneuvering (you typically don't pull high Gs while joining a formation) at the time so he should not have had any problems activating the backup oxygen system. Something does not add up here.
I think news is just saying some BS to make their story more attractive and therefore make more money.
Here is the full USAF report: http://usaf.aib.law.af.mil/ExecSum2011/F-22A_AK_16%20Nov%2010.pdf (http://usaf.aib.law.af.mil/ExecSum2011/F-22A_AK_16%20Nov%2010.pdf) (It's 40 pages so I did not get a chance to read it yet)
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Foxnews typically concentrates more on hysteria than the facts.
That certainly makes sense.
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That certainly makes sense.
All of the major news networks are like this. All about the ratings, baby!
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All of the major news networks are like this. All about the ratings, baby!
About a zillion years ago I witnessed a Cub on floats spin and crash after takeoff. Pilot died in the post crash fire. I was first on scene, helped put the fire out and recover the body then did the paperwork.
Later that evening the local newspaper reporter called and wanted to interview me. I told her I'd be happy to talk to her but policy required that she get permission from the Chief before we did an interview. She replied with "But you saw the plane crash didn't you?" to which I replied yes and again said the Chief would have to give his blessing before we talked more.
The next day in the paper is an interview with Officer Me and they quoted me saying something like "Yeah, I saw him going down, knew he was going in." All that from a simple "yes". I despise and do not trust the media. (But my feelings are not based on that single incident)
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All of the major news networks are like this. All about the ratings, baby!
correct. their job is no longer to report actual news.....but rather keep people interested in the show, regardless of what they need to do.
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If I had options that could save myself, but put others at risk, or an option that would minimize risk to others but most likely mean the end of me, I would choose the latter.
That's a very easy thing to say and very different thing to do, especially if you have a family :)
Single people need not apply to the discussion.
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That's a very easy thing to say and very different thing to do, especially if you have a family :)
Single people need not apply to the discussion.
so me being single, and being of the frame of mind that i'd like to save my arse doesn't count?
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ok...here's a map showing the crash site in relationship to the runways.....
(http://i200.photobucket.com/albums/aa135/1LTCAP/crashsite.jpg)
now i don't know the scale on this map, so i don't know the distance......but this happened straight off the end of the runway. i've always thought it pretty stupid to build anything within a few miles of ANY runway(on the runway heading), much less a military or commercial runway.
honestly, with homes built close like this(we've got em within a half mile at south jersey regional, and the flying w), it was only a matter of time before something like this happened.
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Later that evening the local newspaper reporter called and wanted to interview me. I told her I'd be happy to talk to her but policy required that she get permission from the Chief before we did an interview. She replied with "But you saw the plane crash didn't you?" to which I replied yes and again said the Chief would have to give his blessing before we talked more.
The next day in the paper is an interview with Officer Me and they quoted me saying something like "Yeah, I saw him going down, knew he was going in." All that from a simple "yes". I despise and do not trust the media. (But my feelings are not based on that single incident)
I remember my father telling me a similar story of when he was growing up in Agawam, Mass. He would hang out at the airport on a regular basis as planes always interested him. One day, he noticed a plane coming in which was noticeably too low. The aircraft ended up smashing into the ground, killing all three on board (Man, woman, and their child). The aircraft bursted into flames, and he witnessed the woman crawling out of the wreck, on fire. She died before anyone could reach her. The local newspaper approached him, and asked for an interview, which he declined. Same as your story, they ended up quoting him for saying something that he never did.
It was later determined (IIRC) that the family was flying back from a party in New York, where the father/pilot had consumed alcohol and was flying under the influence.
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I remember my father telling me a similar story of when he was growing up in Agawam, Mass. He would hang out at the airport on a regular basis as planes always interested him. One day, he noticed a plane coming in which was noticeably too low. The aircraft ended up smashing into the ground, killing all three on board (Man, woman, and their child). The aircraft bursted into flames, and he witnessed the woman crawling out of the wreck, on fire. She died before anyone could reach her. The local newspaper approached him, and asked for an interview, which he declined. Same as your story, they ended up quoting him for saying something that he never did.
It was later determined (IIRC) that the family was flying back from a party in New York, where the father/pilot had consumed alcohol and was flying under the influence.
your story...and colombos.....that's why within cap, we talk to no one outside of cap. if anyone at all approaches any of us, asking questions....we direct them to the incident commander, who will then direct them to the appropriate contact.
literally, all we say is that we cannot answer, please go see "col. smith.
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your story...and colombos.....that's why within cap, we talk to no one outside of cap. if anyone at all approaches any of us, asking questions....we direct them to the incident commander, who will then direct them to the appropriate contact.
literally, all we say is that we cannot answer, please go see "col. smith.
A good policy no doubt.
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remember that F-22 crash in Alaska last year and how everyone was screaming that it's oxygen system does not work, well when the report finally came out it said nothing about it's oxygen system as that was not the cause.
http://www.adn.com/2012/04/30/2446289/some-pilots-seek-to-avoid-flying.html
F-22's oxygen-deficit concerns lead pilots to seek other jobs
Read more here: http://www.adn.com/2012/04/30/2446289/some-pilots-seek-to-avoid-flying.html#storylink=cpy
HAMPTON, Va. -- Some of the nation's 200 F-22 Raptor pilots want to be moved into other jobs because of oxygen-deficit problems with the stealth fighter, an Air Force leader said Monday.
Gen. Mike Hostage, commander of Air Combat Command at Langley Air Force Base in Hampton, Va., told reporters that a "very small" number of pilots have asked not to fly the fifth-generation fighter jets or to be reassigned.
"Obviously it's a very sensitive thing because we are trying to ensure that the community fully understands all that we're doing to try to get to a solution," Hostage said.
He did not provide exact figures on the number of pilots who have asked to not fly the jets and said each pilot's request would be handled individually.
Air Force officials believe the airplane is safe to fly -- Hostage noted that he'll fly soon because he won't ask a pilot to do something that he will not.
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"I'm going to check out and fly the airplane so I can understand exactly what it is they're dealing with. The day we figure out what the problem is I will stop flying (the plane) because we don't have enough sorties for all of our combat aviators to get as much training as they need," he said.
The nation's F-22 fighter jets were grounded for four months last year after pilots complained of experiencing a lack of oxygen that can cause dizziness and blackouts. Air Force officials said they have taken steps against the problem, but still haven't pinpointed what's causing the hypoxia-like symptoms. Hypoxia is when the body doesn't receive enough oxygen.
An Air Force panel is meeting weekly to investigate the problem and has enlisted the help of NASA and the Navy to learn more about what happens to the body under extreme conditions, among other things.
Hostage spoke during a media day event at the base, highlighting the nation's most advanced fighter plane. After being introduced in 2005, the last of nearly 190 jets are scheduled to be delivered to the Air Force this week.
At a price tag of $143 million each, the Raptor has come under some criticism for not being used in place of older and less-sophisticated jets in Iraq or Afghanistan.
Hostage said the plane is critical to maintaining the nation's air superiority in the future and that he wishes he had more of the jets at his disposal. On Monday, Iran's defense minister said that reports of the stealth fighter jet being deployed to the United Arab Emirates would damage regional security, the semiofficial ISNA news agency reported.
Without saying which country in the region the F-22s were deployed to -- or which base or bases they were deployed from -- Hostage said there's a reason other nations take note of the plane's movements.
"People pay attention to where this airplane goes and what it does because, regardless of the furor in our press and public about the suitability or the safety of the airplane, they're very worried about its capability. That, to me, means we're on the right path with this capability," he said.
The planes are stationed at five other bases besides Virginia: Joint Base Elmendorf-Richardson, Alaska; Joint Base Pearl Harbor-Hickam, Hawaii; Nellis Air Force Base, Nev.; Holloman Air Force Base, N.M.; and Tyndall Air Force Base, Fla.
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ok...here's a map showing the crash site in relationship to the runways.....
(http://i200.photobucket.com/albums/aa135/1LTCAP/crashsite.jpg)
now i don't know the scale on this map, so i don't know the distance......but this happened straight off the end of the runway. i've always thought it pretty stupid to build anything within a few miles of ANY runway(on the runway heading), much less a military or commercial runway.
honestly, with homes built close like this(we've got em within a half mile at south jersey regional, and the flying w), it was only a matter of time before something like this happened.
Cap you are correct...only a matter of time...but....it's been almost 25 years since the last fatal aircraft mishap involving Oceana aircraft and the surrounding area, and that's a pretty damned good safety record considering the optemo out of Oceana. It truly was a Good Friday miracle that noone....NOONE was killed.
The unfortunate thing here is that you have a Virginia Beach City council that is shaking hands with the Navy on the left saying they will control the developers, but then shaking hands on the right with the developers stating they will handle dealing with the Navy, just go ahead and build. That diagram you showed has to be disclosed to any potential home-buyer when purchasing in Virginia Beach. You know before you sign the dotted line what type of chance you are taking, and it's YOUR decision if you want to move forward.
When the base was commissioned in 1943, there was nothing for miles around, but now almost 70 years later, its surrounded by commercial and urban sprawl. But it still doesn't stop those who just moved in a couple of years ago from biatching and moaning about how the Navy and it's aircraft are infringing and threatening their God-given rights when they have to fly past 2000 hours in order to prepare for their upcoming deployment....to protect those freedoms that allow them to biatch in the first place! I live under the departing flight path for runway 23 (a route I flew many many times) and for all those who complain about the jets.....either embrace it, or move the f out. It is what it is....and they are not going away anytime soon....thank God.
BTW...I still have some sources inside VFA-106....it was a D (as has been reported in the press) and those dudes came about 1.0-1.5 seconds from being apart of those wreckage pictures....they were at less than 150' when the punched.
Do you believe in miracles? Having seen the site, flown over the same area many many times, and having lived here for over 12 years......yes, yes I do.