Aces High Bulletin Board
Help and Support Forums => Help and Training => Topic started by: RedBull1 on April 25, 2012, 11:54:54 AM
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As many know I like to fly the K4 :D
I've flown with many different convergences, and I was wondering if any other K-4 pilots have some suggestions for convergence for me to play around with? Only huge difference I notice with convergence is dead 6 shooting, not in crossing shots etc.
Thanks! :cheers:
:salute
(Also...is this the right thread to be posting this? :headscratch: )
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I put it at 300. I get in close and for snap shots it doesn't seem to matter that much for me.
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:huh :huh Taters......nom nom nom. Closer the better! :O :O :O
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No, it should be in the Luftwobble section :old:
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225-350 depends on the month...
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I ran from RedBull's K yesterday, proud of it too ! Knew it was him the first turn, kept on a goin.
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I like 250 convergence in the K4. I did some testing with the target and found with convergence at 250, it seemed to be pretty close to on target, meaning not going too high on the way out, and not dropping too low out to around 400. Of course, the silly-string dispersion on it means it doesn't do a lot of good out that far unless it's a big target.
Wiley.
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225, Definitely different with tators going from a dead six shot to snapshots.
:salute
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I ran from RedBull's K yesterday, proud of it too ! Knew it was him the first turn, kept on a goin.
Ppl like you ruin the game.
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No suggestion, but my own convergence is at 350, as with all weapons in all planes. Exceptions are only the 262 and pure .303 equipped planes (Spit & Hurri I).
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Ppl like you ruin the game.
You any better?
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:banana:
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Got her!
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I was going to make a contribution to Mk-108 convergence, but why do I get the feeling it's popcorn time again?
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Got her!
WOOT!
(http://reel-adventure.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2009/12/bent-rod.jpg)
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I was going to make a contribution to Mk-108 convergence, but why do I get the feeling it's popcorn time again?
Remember to pass me some this time, at least! :old:
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You any better?
too easy lol
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too easy lol
heehee +1 :bolt:
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(http://i1114.photobucket.com/albums/k526/rwrk2/popcorn.gif)
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I set mine at 250, just what im comfortable with. drops past that and any closer could cause 3rd degree burn marks with them explosions :eek:
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Are you serious? :rofl
EDIT: You guys never seem to amaze me with the lame stuff you come up with but its all good try and save face I wont stand in the way. :aok
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real men fly Emil,k4 is for timid wussies
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real men fly Emil,k4 is for timid wussies
:aok :lol
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real men fly Emil,k4 is for timid wussies
:noid
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Are you serious? :rofl
EDIT: You guys never seem to amaze me with the lame stuff you come up with but its all good try and save face I wont stand in the way. :aok
SHE'S A FIGHTER BOYS!!!! YEEEHAAAAW! LOOK AT HER GO!!!!
(http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2011/11/07/article-2058552-0EB3DD8300000578-597_634x408.jpg)
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Lighten up man.
I think it's pretty well known that Sunbat is a mischievous forum troll with a heart of gold. It wasn't a personal attack on Zoney, it was a pretty common mock of the win t3h w4r/armchair general types who loathe furballers and anyone committed to a fight. Level 1 troll type stuff, I'm not sure it was even intentional bait. But you hammered it like a great white on a fake seal.
(http://www.scuba-equipment-usa.com/marine/OCT05/images/Carcharodon_carcharias2.jpg)
Stand next to her Sunbat and let me take a picture of you and your trophy!
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:rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :x :x :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl
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i set mine at 650 for the loft and the bbs at 400. Works for me.
ultimatly I don't think it matters much - anything outside of 400 is a prayer and low profile dead six shots are a waste of ammo. Against a K4 I make an effort to keep my profile small.
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Here's some Giant Squid to tangle with.
Question to ponder: Why does the real world MK108 drop from 0 elevation in negative numbers as tested locked into the engine hollow shaft but, our game numbers from a level engine go from a negative up to a postive then back to a negative? The reason the 50 yard drop numbers are different between the 152 and K4 is the 152 pilot sits higher from the engine line than the K4 pilot. The 152 MK108 is shooting up to 150 from a lower position than the K4's.
You guys are getting shafted by the dispersion while being handed a favor on the drop so the code is kept the same across all fighters for gunnery. Don't fix whats not broken if it works over a cosmetic issue probably.
Your real problem is the crap shoot randomised dispersion pattern past 100 yards in the game. Whatever game world angle(convergence) you tip your MK108 barrel up to, the dispersion stays the same. You just have a kinda sorta level but ever expanding shotgun pattern cone out to 400 yards. Use 200 as your convergence and it just about evens out the cone all the way to 400. It's between you and Hitech if you think his 24 sided randomiser dice is loaded.
Too bad you guys don't have a G10 with the MG151\20 in the nose. Much kinder dispersion out to 400 with the MG131's.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
MK108 30mm Ballistics
Projectil Type - 3 cm Minengeschoss 108 Ausführung A mit Zerleger
Projectile Weight - 330g +-8
Initial Velocity - 500 m\sec (1640 ft\sec)
Barrel firing Angle - 0 degree
Rate of Right Hand Twist - 1:16
Range(M)..m\sec...ToF......Drop......Disp......RH.Spin.Drift
0...............500........0. ........0..........0......... ....0
50.............486....(.10s)...(-2in).....###.......(1.7in)
100...........472....(.21s)...(-8in).....(6.8ft).....(3.7in)
150...........459....(.31s)...(-1.5ft)...###.......(5.9in)
200...........446....(.42s)...(-2.7ft)...(14.0ft)...(8.4in)
250...........434....(.54s)...(-4.4ft)...###.......(11.0in)
300...........422....(.63s)...(-6.5ft)...(21.9ft)...(1.1ft)
350...........411....(.77s)...(-9.0ft)...###.......(1.3ft)
400...........400....(.90s)...(-12.0ft)..(30.2ft)...(1.6ft)
425.......................... ............................. ....(1.7ft)
450...........390....(1.02s)..(-15.5ft)..###.......######
500...........379....(1.15s)..(-19.6ft)..(39.2ft)...######
525.......................... ............................. .....(2.25ft)
550...........370....(1.29s)..(-24.0ft)..###.......######
---------------------------------------------------------------
Ta152 MK108 tested at 150 convergence.
Range(yd)...Drop(ft)...Dispersion(H x W)
50..........(-16in).....(2.5ft x 2ft)
100.........(-8in)......(4.5ft x 3.5ft)
150..........(0in)......(6.25ft x 6.25ft)
200..........(0in)......(14.5ft x 11.6ft)
300..........(0in)......(29ft x 11ft)
400.........(-4.6ft)....(37ft x 17.5ft)
---------------------------------------------------------------
Bf109-K4 MK108 tested at 150 convergence.
Range(yd)...Drop(ft)...Dispersion(H x W)
50..........(-8in)......(10in x 5in)
100.........(-7in)......(6ft x 4.5ft)
150..........(0in)......(6.25ft x 6.25ft)
200..........(0in)......(14.5ft x 11.6ft)
300.........(-22in).....(23ft x 13.75ft)
400.........(-5.8ft)....(30ft x 17.5ft)
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No need to keep throwing excuses as to why you spend so much time on here.
Carry on. :aok
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No need to keep throwing excuses as to why you spend so much time on here.
Carry on. :aok
SHE'S A TAIL WALKER BOYS!!!
(http://www.dianibeach.co.uk/Black_Marlin.jpg)
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and now for your usual completely off topic youtube video explaining some of the IQs in this thread!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B6grEZ-X4nc
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and now for your usual completely off topic youtube video explaining some of the IQs in this thread!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B6grEZ-X4nc
:confused:
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and now for your usual completely off topic youtube video explaining some of the IQs in this thread!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B6grEZ-X4nc
:rofl
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:rofl Such a perfect Vid.
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:rofl Such a perfect Vid.
Did your mother ever call you "her special boy?"
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:bhead CAN WE GET BACK TO THE CONVERGENCE? :furious :mad: And pass the the BellyButton Popcorn Shida :old:
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Did your mother ever call you "her special boy?"
Guess I do owe ya Red, Sukoff posted within the 4th page not 5th. :bhead
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:bhead CAN WE GET BACK TO THE CONVERGENCE? :furious :mad: And pass the the BellyButton Popcorn Shida :old:
you calm down this instance Rebull, join the SAPP!! :banana:
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Guess I do owe ya Red, Sukoff posted within the 4th page not 5th. :bhead
I will take that as a yes. Good one by the way the original jokes are the best.
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Simple Average Plane Pilots? :confused:
:banana:
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too easy lol
Shouldn't this be prefaced with " All To.......in your Best Darth Vader Voice.
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RedBull,
Convergence doesn't matter with the MK108 Motor Kannon. The secret you want to the MK108 in the K4 is to simply become a master K4 ACM practitioner. Then you cannot miss when you set your con up to fail inside of 100 yards. The Ta152 for whatever code programing reason shoots flatter inside of 300. So set your MK108 to 200 and your MG151\20 250-300 and pull the trigger 200 and closer.
I've noticed the players who land consistant high kill strings in the K4 and 152 are also highly accomplished ACM pilots in both fighters.
Just remember that dispersion pattern from the real MK108 testing and my in game testing before shooting at anything smaller than a bomber past about 200. Or keep a hugh perk bank to fly a 262 all the time. The four overlapping dispersion patterns increase your hit probability out to 400 by 4x. The germans understood this and set the upper 2 to H\Vconv 400m and lower 2 to H\Vconv 500m.
Get a muppet and go learn K4 ACM in the DA. There is no secret convergence involved.
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and now for your usual completely off topic youtube video explaining some of the IQs in this thread!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B6grEZ-X4nc
I see your poop rabbit thing and raise you http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0oWUk5A0Gds&feature=related (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0oWUk5A0Gds&feature=related)
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Thank you for the advice bustr, I think Im at least average in a K4, and the convergence does matter if you're trying to clear a friendly, dead 6 on a con, and your convergence at 650 means you have to spray 15 taters above and below him just for the 1 kill, assuming you hit him! I've fought many Muppets in K4's aswell :)
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Simple Average Plane Pilots? :confused:
:banana:
oh good one :mad:
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I set mine to 350, only for the fact that I'm used to it. Pick a close range and study the projection of the round. You can usually see it in front(over) or behind(below) your target. In the long run, pick one stick with it, eventually you'll be able to pull blackout shots. Junky knows what I'm talking about. I used to go dueling arena, when I first learned and did 109fs and 109gs with Scotch and Agent360. All you have to remember with convergence is round drop X distance X range of convergence. Obviously technical writing in math I'm handicap. Hopefully, someone will be along soon to correct me. Apologize for bad grammar and what-not I have been drinking.
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I set mine to 350, only for the fact that I'm used to it. Pick a close range and study the projection of the round. You can usually see it in front(over) or behind(below) your target. In the long run, pick one stick with it, eventually you'll be able to pull blackout shots. Junky knows what I'm talking about. I used to go dueling arena, when I first learned and did 109fs and 109gs with Scotch and Agent360. All you have to remember with convergence is round drop X distance X range of convergence. Obviously technical writing in math I'm handicap. Hopefully, someone will be along soon to correct me. Apologize for bad grammar and what-not I have been drinking.
Totally made sense to me Nisky and I haven't had a drop :lol .........so this worries me. :uhoh
HL
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Wonder what Grizz used to set his convergence to :headscratch:
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Here you go buddy: (http://i1114.photobucket.com/albums/k526/rwrk2/popcorn.gif)
What was the whole pseudo-personal attack thing in this thread about anyway? I could sense it's approach but didn't understand it when it got here :headscratch:
I seldom fly the K-4 but I do fly the G-14 a little. I have the Mk-108 set to 600 yards, figuring that it's easier to adjust closer in than farther out. Really close in I often don't have time to look at the gunsight anyway in a crossing shot for example, it's just instinctive.
The only inconvenience is a chasing shot at 400 yards where you have to aim a bit low.
Do you have a visual regarding the dispersion sir bustr?
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Going through the effort to produce your own is more meaningful. Below are the tools.
Build a gunsight in 512x512 1Mil=2Pixel format. Draw a 100Mil diameter circle and place a cross in it. Starting from the cross center Make 5Mil division marks out to the edge of the circle in all directions. At every 10Mil make the marks longer. Draw 4 lines one each 10Mil above then below the horizontal line and the same left and right of the verticle.
You now have a Mil grid testing gunsight for shooting offline. Fly the K4 auto level 290 TA or the Ta152 275 TA due north offline. At those speeds the hollow airscrew shafts are more or less at "0" degree as the real tests were performed. But, your barrel is still tilted up to a convergence 150-650 to intersect with the MG line. I thought becasue in the Ta152 the convergence line from the MG151\20 tilted up to intersect the MK108 line that it was level in the airscrew shaft. It's tilted up slightly as you can see from the offline testing I posted.
If you let both aircraft come to full Militairy speed at 300+ the nose will be down angled nearly enough to counter the up tilting of the MK108 barrel by the convergence code function. Or just about....I found a convergence of 200-250 at full Mil speed generated the closest ballistic trajectory to the "Drop" column in the Brosig data. Kind of a toss up which is better. The Reflexvisier line of sight in the game is wrong if you fly level zero'd. But, due to the down angle of the nose at militairy power it has almost the 14 degree down of -338cm at 400m described in the Bf109G-6/U4 armerors manual.
Pull up the offline target goto full zoom. Shoot at the distances below or inbetween if you want to calculate the angular Mil math for 1Mil@distance. Hold down on the MK108 trigger only long enough to make a good pattern visible with a large dark centering of rounds. You probably noticed the dispersion patterns from my testing are close to the testing from the Rheinmetall-Borsig testing data. Also enable 10x ammo and you might want to set aran time to 01:00 to see your results better. Have fun testing.
--------------------------------------------
1Mil @ 100yds = 3.6 inches
1Mil @ 150yds = 5 inches
1Mil @ 200yds = 7 inches
1Mil @ 300yds = 11 inches
1Mil @ 400yds = 14 inches
1Mil @ 600yds = 20 inches
1Mil @ 1000yds= 36 inches
---------------------------------------------
Rheinmetall-Borsig Testing Data.
MK108 30mm Ballistics
Projectil Type - 3 cm Minengeschoss 108 Ausführung A mit Zerleger
Projectile Weight - 330g +-8
Initial Velocity - 500 m\sec (1640 ft\sec)
Barrel firing Angle - 0 degree
Rate of Right Hand Twist - 1:16
Range(M)..m\sec...ToF......Drop......Disp......RH.Spin.Drift
0...............500........0. ........0..........0......... ....0
50.............486....(.10s)...(-2in).....###.......(1.7in)
100...........472....(.21s)...(-8in).....(6.8ft).....(3.7in)
150...........459....(.31s)...(-1.5ft)...###.......(5.9in)
200...........446....(.42s)...(-2.7ft)...(14.0ft)...(8.4in)
250...........434....(.54s)...(-4.4ft)...###.......(11.0in)
300...........422....(.63s)...(-6.5ft)...(21.9ft)...(1.1ft)
350...........411....(.77s)...(-9.0ft)...###.......(1.3ft)
400...........400....(.90s)...(-12.0ft)..(30.2ft)...(1.6ft)
425.......................... ............................. ....(1.7ft)
450...........390....(1.02s)..(-15.5ft)..###.......######
500...........379....(1.15s)..(-19.6ft)..(39.2ft)...######
525.......................... ............................. .....(2.25ft)
550...........370....(1.29s)..(-24.0ft)..###.......######
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Many thanks. I'll look into it if I can find the time. I made a ballistics table for the Ho-5 once, calibrated in yards. :salute
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Did your mother ever call you "her special boy?"
(http://static3.fjcdn.com/thumbnails/comments/Forever+alone+is+not+a+meme+yet+OP+criticized+someone+_d3488416098d56c00ef36dea50cc62ea.gif)
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Wonder what Grizz used to set his convergence to :headscratch:
I don't think he cared about convergence too much. It was mainly how the shot was set up - something I never could get down real well. :uhoh
Concerning the fish pictures, I was just ribbing DrBone some. I apologize before all, for all to see. I was just messing around. I hope no personal offense was taken by the good doctor. :salute to him and to all. He was right to defend Zoney and to call me out. :salute
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Wonder what Grizz used to set his convergence to :headscratch:
350
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Bustr, great reads, thank you. I think I might abandon my new girl, her name is N1K2, and go back to my first love, the K4. Well, maybe just for a day. I used to set mine out to 650, under the illusion that it would have the greatest amount of elevation dialed into it, so that when in a flat turn fight, I would have a bit of lead programmed into the round (well when you don't know you don't know).
Too bad some of these threads get polluted by intramural shenanigans. You have to sort through 20 post of playground posturing sometimes to get to the relevant stuff.
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ELO wrote a song about her, Evil Women and it goes something a lot like this...you made a fool of me. Fly it like an angry women, convergence doesn't matter.
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I've ran from an angry women, because I didn't know what she was going throw at me next! Any of the things she was flinging at me could've took me out.
I found zigzagging kept her guessing.
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I don't think he cared about convergence too much. It was mainly how the shot was set up - something I never could get down real well. :uhoh
Concerning the fish pictures, I was just ribbing DrBone some. I apologize before all, for all to see. I was just messing around. I hope no personal offense was taken by the good doctor. :salute to him and to all. He was right to defend Zoney and to call me out. :salute
I swear 50% of the crossing shots I miss are because they are in my canopy bar when I need to shoot lol :bhead
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I swear 50% of the crossing shots I miss are because they are in my canopy bar when I need to shoot lol :bhead
That's because you're focused on trying to use your sight or in some way aim. Don't do that, keep your eye on the target (even when it's obscured by the bars), track that and visualise the sight or rather where the round will come out in your head.
For an exercise close your eyes when you fire and you will see it works anyway.
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I used to put the convergence at 250. My aim sucks, always has, so I never went for shots past 250 anyway.
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It's probably a latency issue online but, in offline mode after about 5 minutes of shooting single taps with the MK108 I reach the point that I can pretty much hit the drones from any angle 75% at 400yds and 85% 200 and closer. Dosen't hurt that from all the testing I've done I have an idea where the round should be going and modified a gunsight to reflect that. Has a bit to do with those dispersion tests at different ranges anyone can perform. If you test offline against the target 50-400 yards, you will notice all of your shots pretty much pattern from gunsight center down to the first 10Mil below center depending on the range. But, dispersion is ruining what looks like an almost flat shooting round.
Bf109-K4 MK108 tested at 150 convergence.
Range(yd)...Drop(ft)...Dipsersion(H x W)
50..............(-8in)......(10in x 5in)
100............(-7in)......(6ft x 4.5ft)
150.............(0in)......(6.25ft x 6.25ft)
200.............(0in)......(14.5ft x 11.6ft)
300............(-22in).....(23ft x 13.75ft)
400............(-5.8ft)....(30ft x 17.5ft)
As soon as I'm online and in the same firing positions and gunsight lineups, instead of a single MK108 tap, I have to use a trigger burst of 3-6 rounds. The MK108 rounds just don't seem to act online like they do offline. And dead 6 shots from 200 and closer the rounds on full zoom look like they are all sliding along the surfaces of the con. Even the Yak9T rounds look like that.
In my research on the MK108, almost every source pointed out the MK108 was lousy choice of auto cannon for fighter to fighter high speed combat. It was emphasised that it was for shooting large slow moving bombers becasue of it's slow velocity and awfull ballistics.
An 18ft dispersion at 200 meters with a 3ft drop and a 30ft dispersion at 400 meters with a 12ft drop. Meters are shorter than yards. Your best combat range if you have to shoot at fighters is 100 yards. At 100 meters it has a 7ft dispersion with an 8inch drop. That testing table from the game shows those two (0) becasue you get to tilt the barrel up for vertical convergence settings. But, the Dispersion column negates the seemingly lazer qualites you see in the Drop column. I'd still like to see all negative numbers in the Drop column.
I could be smoking some funny stuff here or cannot read my own chicken scratch hand writing but, I found some of my ballistics testing notes from about 2 years ago from offline with the K4. The dispersion grid patterning numbers are smaller than the numbers I posted in this thread which I pulled in the last 2 days that reflect the Rheinmetall-Borsig test data. You guys should ask for the G10 back with the 20mm in the nose.
Back then I could sit behind a B25 offline and one shot at a time perform accurate dismanteling tests of different airframe structures to understand the damage model. Now days the MK108 rounds seem to euphimistcly disperse randomly all over the place requiring bursts instead of single taps. The Yak9T is better for the single shot damage tests these days due to having a similar ballistic profile to a 20mm out to 400.
Must be the low tide fumes off Lake Meritt affecting my cognitive abilities or my cats rewrote my notes from a few years ago. I'm just imaging all of this.
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400 is the sweet spot.
But even if the con is at 500 to 600 yards i still aim for the top of the vertical stabilizer. 3 tater burst: dead
Works for me anyway.
<S>
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from the F-K4 i have my convergence at 375 for mgs 425 for cannon.
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Got mine to 300, I tried every setting and 300 seems the best.
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Mine are 650 like about half the guns in AH. Doesn't hurt my aim at all because it's what I'm used to.
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Mine are 650 like about half the guns in AH.
:huh
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:huh
Yep. The only guns I set lower than 650 are .303's, 7.9mm's, MGFF's and all Russian and Japanese cannons which I set at 400. I also set Hispanos to 400 if they are in a mixed set with .303's. Otherwise I set everything to 650 even though I normally open fire at 400. I like to be able to reach out when I need to. I usually maintan about a 10-12% hit rate with those settings.
I don't seem to have any issues hitting with the tater at those settings either. I got used to flying the 190-A8 with the 30mm gun package set at 650 and kept it the same on the K4.
Not saying it's best for everyone but it works for me.
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Bustr,
you said meters are smaller than yards and this isnt true,a yard is 36 inches where a meter is 39 inches and abit! a 1000 meters are roughly 1100 yards.
But you knew that and just wrote it backwards didnt you! :devil
:salute
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200 in 109K4
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I used to put the convergence at 250. My aim sucks, always has, so I never went for shots past 250 anyway.
So how long of a break you gonna take Ardy? Don't you miss shooting me down in under 12 seconds? Not that I fly the 109 much or anywhere near competently but I usually have my conv at 250 aswell, since my aim is horrible same same
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Bustr,
you said meters are smaller than yards and this isnt true,a yard is 36 inches where a meter is 39 inches and abit! a 1000 meters are roughly 1100 yards.
But you knew that and just wrote it backwards didnt you!
Oh this is going to elicit a lengthy post methinks.
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well, like it has been stated, convergence with the tater is not really important because when you pull the trigger your target will be a very large object moving into your bullets (profile shots) - although the occasional long range deflection shot from 600 out with one round (just to keep them honest) is like winning the lottery and feels great. . .but ultimatly is not the norm.
Point is, you have to change the way you set up shots completely with the tater and make the changes to how you imagine the end of the fight. Which is one of the really fun things about the K4 - that you force a certain outcome on the opponent. To be honest though, the 20mm is more accurate.
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I've always understood convergence with single nose mounted guns only really matters with the trajectory of the bullet itself....which can effect how you line up a plane for all types of shots.
At 200 I can aim at the bottom of the plane dead six and still hit with the mk19 because that is the rounds flight path to 225. Is this correct thinking?
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Bustr,
you said meters are smaller than yards and this isnt true,a yard is 36 inches where a meter is 39 inches and abit! a 1000 meters are roughly 1100 yards.
But you knew that and just wrote it backwards didnt you! :devil
:salute
For some reason I've always flipped it. I've never been able to pronounce tickled pink. It comes out pickled tink but, in my head it reads tickled pink. Most conversion sources give you:
1 meter = 1.0936133 yards. <---for some reason it just looks longer when I'm in a hurry.
Instead of:
A yard=91.44cm <---a precise common value differentiation.
A Meter=100cm <---
The USA is not on the metric system and I've never had to buy remodeling material in running meters. Just feet and yards which my tape is well endowed to calculate. I keep forgetting to find yard and meter equivalency to centimeters before I calculate from german handbooks. Since my calculator will convert inches/feet/yards to centimeter/meter for me to plug in for D and S in metric angular mil calcs. I still don't worry about it that much. The calculator is pretty good about doing the heavy lifting.
Thank god I use a (gr) scale to relode with and a (gm) scale to weight rough for cutting then to weight the finished product in (ct) not (KT). Just never used meters much for anything until very recent. I'll just have to start yelling into the other room at Marcey asking her which is longer in her experience..........I'll probably get back, don't know honey never dated anyone from europe. You asking me to go find out now?......language is sooo confusling ain't it....... :)
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Mine was always 200. I found that at anything above 300, the chances of the round shooting over the target in close, sometimes unexpected or quick position sacrificial, shots were greater than any potential gain in a long shot. For long range shots (450+) it was really a matter of getting the feel and understanding your rounds trajectory at 200. That and getting lucky by taking the chance and pulling the trigger in the first place. :) I had the most confidence in my shots when I was flying lots of hours (2009). I've had too many extended breaks since then. Basically ignore all the math. choose a convergence somewhere between 2-300 and just practice lots. :cheers:
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I use 425 these days for motor canon 30mm, I think 325-375 on the 110... 425 chucks them pretty wildly high imediatley infront of you, but then ~175 on to 400 it floats pretty flat right above the piper, crosing through it at 425 and then floating under it out to ~525 before dropping like a spud.
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I use 425 these days for motor canon 30mm, I think 325-375 on the 110... 425 chucks them pretty wildly high imediatley infront of you, but then ~175 on to 400 it floats pretty flat right above the piper, crosing through it at 425 and then floating under it out to ~525 before dropping like a spud.
Babs,
This isnt quite right,at 425 conv anything less than that distance the round will be low,check Bustr's tables,the round only rises to the pipper at conv distance,it doesnt fly above and drop down into the pipper like shooting in RL. If this convergence range works for you great but your discription of the flight path of the bullet is not right.
You can easily check this with the dot target,set to 200 and see where your rounds land,I'm betting they will be slightly low until you push the target out to conv. distance and then drop off once past the conv. distance.
:salute
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200 for the tater. Remember the goal of succesful tatoring is setting up a close range snap shot. Shot set up is KEY!
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There ya go fellas.
Set it at 200.....every good k4 driver I know has it set at 200.
bustr is absolutely correct.
But really its not the conv that is important. The 30mm round drops soooo much and even more when fired with G forces that it becomes the art of "deflection" shooting that is the most important.
You have to construct an intersection of flight path that allows your guns to have enough lead WITHOUT G forces....to unload and fire....
IF you try for tracking shots like with 50cal you will NEVER hit anything.
<<snip>>
Question to ponder: Why does the real world MK108 drop from 0 elevation in negative numbers as tested locked into the engine hollow shaft but, our game numbers from a level engine go from a negative up to a postive then back to a negative? The reason the 50 yard drop numbers are different
Your real problem is the crap shoot randomised dispersion pattern past 100 yards in the game. Whatever game world angle(convergence) you tip your MK108 barrel up to, the dispersion stays the same. You just have a kinda sorta level but ever expanding shotgun pattern cone out to 400 yards. Use 200 as your convergence and it just about evens out the cone all the way to 400. It's between you and Hitech if you think his 24 sided randomiser dice is loaded.
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Man I miss flying the virtual K4. :cry
Mean plane, especially fighting those that fly it right.
strapped in........ fighting people to the hilt of its capabilities and beyond....exciting stuff. :D
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This whole conversation is why I wish Hitech would just present motor mounted cannon correctly. Zeroed into the line of the airscrew shaft with NO convergence adjustment. Then your arguments would be about timing related to your reticle elevation and offset. Not my sweet spot fractions of a degree is better than your sweet spot fractions of a degree.
At least then you guys would be nennering each other over your super secret dead eye dork special tater gunsights.
You guys do know the MK108 barrel was only 23 inches. It just barley touched the rear of the hollow airscrew shaft tube at the back of the DB605 engine. It needed a ridgid adapter to lock it solid with the engine so there was no chance of a round jamming the hollow airscrew shaft or bouncing off the shaft's wall making it fly off god knows where on exit of the shaft. That hollow shaft was 7ft long and the high explosive round had to clear it clean to be of any use hitting a target.
A problem with bouncing around in the tube is it could slow the spin, engage the self destruct or the fuse. The spin kept the self destruct part of the fuse from engaging untill about 1000 meters. Or if it's the AZ 1587 generic artillery fuse you could get a predetonation. I know, we are using some strange mix of TypeI M-Gesch and TypeN M-Gesch day tracer rounds which accounts for the tracer every third tater and the AZ 1587 generic artillery fuse with no self destruct. By the time of the K4 the ZZ 1589 B fuse with self destruct was standard. Don't want to kill your own citizens or get a possible pre-det half way down the engine tube.
Whether you set your MK108 conv anywhere 150 up to 650, when you test auto engine leveled at 290ta offline. Your aimpoint is from the reticle center to 10Mil below it when you shoot between 100-400. Even if you allow the K4 offline to come up to full cruise at 345ta which pitches the nose down. It still shoots the same pattern. Everything else is your aim timing and your Internet connection versus those random dispersion patterns I documented while you fly in the game.
Like the muppets said, out fly them so you can shoot em really close.
Still wish Hitech would lock the hub cannon in place.......mumble, grumble, brain farts here, pours coffe in the cat water bowel and drinks the cats milk, yeech, blech, phooy...sorry kitty.....rassin frassin...oops...wify wants me to pick up a cae of cat food..... :)
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This whole conversation is why I wish Hitech would just present motor mounted cannon correctly. Zeroed into the line of the airscrew shaft with NO convergence adjustment. Then your arguments would be about timing related to your reticle elevation and offset. Not my sweet spot fractions of a degree is better than your sweet spot fractions of a degree.
At least then you guys would be nennering each other over your super secret dead eye dork special tater gunsights.
You guys do know the MK108 barrel was only 23 inches. It just barley touched the rear of the hollow airscrew shaft tube at the back of the DB605 engine. It needed a ridgid adapter to lock it solid with the engine so there was no chance of a round jamming the hollow airscrew shaft or bouncing off the shaft's wall making it fly off god knows where on exit of the shaft. That hollow shaft was 7ft long and the high explosive round had to clear it clean to be of any use hitting a target.
A problem with bouncing around in the tube is it could slow the spin, engage the self destruct or the fuse. The spin kept the self destruct part of the fuse from engaging untill about 1000 meters. Or if it's the AZ 1587 generic artillery fuse you could get a predetonation. I know, we are using some strange mix of TypeI M-Gesch and TypeN M-Gesch day tracer rounds which accounts for the tracer every third tater and the AZ 1587 generic artillery fuse with no self destruct. By the time of the K4 the ZZ 1589 B fuse with self destruct was standard. Don't want to kill your own citizens or get a possible pre-det half way down the engine tube.
Whether you set your MK108 conv anywhere 150 up to 650, when you test auto engine leveled at 290ta offline. Your aimpoint is from the reticle center to 10Mil below it when you shoot between 100-400. Even if you allow the K4 offline to come up to full cruise at 345ta which pitches the nose down. It still shoots the same pattern. Everything else is your aim timing and your Internet connection versus those random dispersion patterns I documented while you fly in the game.
Like the muppets said, out fly them so you can shoot em really close.
Still wish Hitech would lock the hub cannon in place.......mumble, grumble, brain farts here, pours coffe in the cat water bowel and drinks the cats milk, yeech, blech, phooy...sorry kitty.....rassin frassin...oops...wify wants me to pick up a cae of cat food..... :)
internet connection as far as I know...has zero to do with hitting.....at least that is what I have been lead to believe. :headscratch:
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There is no mystique to the guns convergence. Again its all in the set up. Wow whats that...well it can happen many ways. I loved a "turn early and within your oponent, unload G, wait for him to cross in front at near collision distance and fire early. Laugh as your taters roll thru his cockpit." Thats a classic set up.
Let me put it another way....Sunsfan taught me to imagine the tater draws a straight line infront of your aircraft. Kind of like a stick or pole extending forth into the sky.
You want to keep it in a straight line and have the other aircraft touch your stick or touch the aircraft with your stick while it is very very straight. VERY VERY STRAIGHT. Bent stick does not get the job done.
So to do this you have to UNLOAD your Gs.
The other thing is ( call me crazy) you have to fire early. Yes you have a snapshot to fire so get the taters out early. The most you'll waste is 2 or 3 to get that one pounding the strike zone.
So no Hitech is not rigging the connection again...its just you have to fight to the Tater's strength.
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There is no mystique to the guns convergence. Again its all in the set up. Wow whats that...well it can happen many ways. I loved a "turn early and within your oponent, unload G, wait for him to cross in front at near collision distance and fire early. Laugh as your taters roll thru his cockpit." Thats a classic set up.
Let me put it another way....Sunsfan taught me to imagine the tater draws a straight line infront of your aircraft. Kind of like a stick or pole extending forth into the sky.
You want to keep it in a straight line and have the other aircraft touch your stick or touch the aircraft with your stick while it is very very straight. VERY VERY STRAIGHT. Bent stick does not get the job done.
So to do this you have to UNLOAD your Gs.
The other thing is ( call me crazy) you have to fire early. Yes you have a snapshot to fire so get the taters out early. The most you'll waste is 2 or 3 to get that one pounding the strike zone.
So no Hitech is not rigging the connection again...its just you have to fight to the Tater's strength.
Some good advice here guys. I wont call you crazy at all,better to miss a round or 2 infront of the enemy and have him fly into your bullets than it is to miss all the round "behind" the enemy!
Also setting up the shot so you can "unload" the A/C is very important with a low muzzle velocity gun.
:salute
PS: Billy, worm said to say hey to ya!
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Some good advice here guys. I wont call you crazy at all,better to miss a round or 2 infront of the enemy and have him fly into your bullets than it is to miss all the round "behind" the enemy!
Also setting up the shot so you can "unload" the A/C is very important with a low muzzle velocity gun.
:salute
PS: Billy, worm said to say hey to ya!
I learned the hard way and would get alot of 12.7mm strikes.Always a problem...some days I'd be on, others all little sprites.
Anywhoo its a cerebral gun. The Art of the Dynamic Tater. Think of intersections and angles to get you G free and close and most likely you will not miss.
One last note, I realize my above post is loaded with beavis and butthead childish innuendo but the message rings true. I was imparted this knowledge by the best tater launchers in the business for 3 six packs of skunked pabst blue ribbon and a water pipe I had no use for. Take it for what it's worth and keep lauching dem Taterz KEKEEKEKEKEKEKEK :D
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I spent a lot of time using the .target command and have convergence anywhere from 100 to 650 depending on the plane.
I'm more concerned with the vertical than horizontal.
If convergence is set too close on a wing mounted gun, it's entirely possible you won't be able to tickle a plane at d900 to make him turn instead of run because the rounds are crossing 700 meteres behind him.
In a 110g, I set convergence very long as well as any other plane with only cowl mounted guns and then adjust the head position for the sake of the sight.
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Get up close and personal with the bandit! :joystick:
275 yards
Whites of thier eyes :O
:D
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Longtime ago Platano taught me to fly the K4.
Some of the muppets will remember Plat. He and I also flew JUggs in the 56th with YUCCA when Nomde was the CO. Plat and YUCCA flew JUggs in the bushes like we fly spit16 today. Platano told me to only shoot with the tater. And only tap one shot at a time. Eventualy I would get to where all it took was one shot. The 13mm on the hood will always mislead you unless you are using only It.
200 and closer the tater convergence dosen't matter because your aimpoint is withing the 10Mil below and up to the gundight center mark. Lead timing does unless you are dead 6. Past 200 the dispersion as much as the lead timing becomes a problem.
You can see all this offline if you cut across the drone circle and try to shoot drones as they pass 90 degrees across your path. After about 10 minutes in the drone circle you should be able to hit fighters in a tracking shot out to 400 with a single tater tap. Set your convergence 150 then 650 and it will all turn out the same. 200 evens the dispersion pattern out to 400. But then that wil take you a few hours offline of shooting at the offline target every 50 yards to 400 at all the convergences and graphing them.
The reason I say with this plane the convergence dosen't matter is for One: The HUB cannon is setup in a fantasy manner so all of you have learned to shoot at what ever fantasy raised engine tube angle you hit with now. You are arguing Chevy versus Ford V8's for quarter miles and beers. And for Two: If it was locked in place like the real cannon was your whole discussion would be in another direction.
In the real K4 the Revi gunsight was set so it's Line of Sight intersected at the estimated point of impact with the tater fired from a leveled engine center line to (-12ft) at 437 yards with a dispersion of 30 feet. Looks like you can fly a fighter through a space like that and it would never know it was being shot at.
Your convergence dosen't matter with the tater. How close you are when you shoot does.
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Here just for grins and giggels....
K4 real world tater numbers based on cannon locked into the engine line shooting from zero.
Gunsight line of sight intersects the 400m impact point at (-12ft).
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Range(M)..m\sec...ToF.....Drop......Disp......RH.Spin.Drift
0...............500......0... .....0........0...........0
50.............486....(.10s)...(2in).....###.......(1.7in)
100...........472....(.21s)...(8in).....(6.8ft)...(3.7in)
150...........459....(.31s)...(1.5ft)...###.......(5.9in)
200...........446....(.42s)...(2.7ft)...(14.0ft)..(8.4in)
250...........434....(.54s)...(4.4ft)...###.......(11.0in)
300...........422....(.63s)...(6.5ft)...(21.9ft)..(1.1ft)
350...........411....(.77s)...(9.0ft)...###.......(1.3ft)
400...........400....(.90s)...(12.0ft)..(30.2ft)..(1.6ft)<--- Revi LoS intersects here.
425.......................... ............................. ..(1.7ft)
450...........390....(1.02s)..(15.5ft)..###.......######
500...........379....(1.15s)..(19.6ft)..(39.2ft)..######
525.......................... ............................. ..(2.25ft)
550...........370....(1.29s)..(24.0ft)..###.......######
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I pulled data sets flying at 290TA which lines the center of the spinner with the center of the offline target. Engine line at zero. Convergences at 150, 250 650. Hitech generaly keeps to the dispersion numbers similare to the real ones now. Notice the dramatic differences in Impact Point based on titling that barrel up throught the crank case. As you can see if you want to be even a smidgen historicly honest set your convergence to 150. This is true for all engine mounted cannon in the game.
GcTc - Gunsight center relative to Target centerline or Gunsight Line of Sight (LoS).
Drop - Impact point of tater below the gunsight center point at the given distance.
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K4 MK108 at 150 Convergence.
Range........GcTc........Drop
100yd........(15in)......(-10in)
150yd........(0.0)........(0.0)
250yd........(-9in).......(0.0)<---Shoots like a slow lazer to 150-250.
350yd........(-2ft)........(-3ft)
450yd........(-4ft)........(-8ft)<--The real K4 LoS and drop = 12ft about here.
550yd........(-4.75ft)...(-16ft)
650yd........(-5.75ft)...(-30ft)<--Real tater dropped about 30ft at this point.
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K4 MK108 at 250 Convergence.
Range........GcTc........Drop
100yd........(15in)......(-10in)
150yd........(-10in).....(-5in)
250yd........(0.0)........(0.0)<---Still shoots like a slow lazer to 250.
350yd........(-2ft)........(-2ft)
450yd........(-4ft)........(-6.5ft) <---This tells you the barrel is tilting up.
550yd........(-4.75ft)...(-14.5ft)
650yd........(-7.75ft)...(-28.75ft) <---Not (-30ft) is it. Barrel is tilted up.
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K4 MK108 at 650 Convergence.
Range........GcTc........Drop
100yd........(15in)......(2ft)<---Wow 2 feet high at 100 yards.
150yd........(5in)........(4ft)
250yd........(-9in).......(6.75ft)<---Waa lazer done gone awayaaaaa.
350yd........(-1.8ft).....(7ft)
450yd........(-2.6ft).....(5ft) <---Wow hollow shaft should poke out between the MG like a Jr. Schräge Musik. Piu, Piu, Piu....
550yd........(-4.75ft)...(1.5ft)
650yd........(-5.75ft)...(-9.5ft) <---Tater drops like a lead brick past 250. This should be (-30ft). Bombers Beware the TILT handicapp of death.
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In the game you shoot the flatest between 100yd-300yd if you set your MK108 convergence 150-200. Dispersion does not change with changes in convergence, it stays the same. As you pull the convergence past 250 your elevation increases exponentially above your LoS to drop the rounds down to your targets past 250. You can see why convergence in the K4 becomes a very confusing arcane subject that only a handfull of players have mastered. They pick one short convergence and never change it.
I really wish Hitech would lock all these motor auto cannon into the historicly mounted zero line of the airscrew shafts. Then you would have a single common discussion about lead, elevation and shot timing. As is you have as many versions of the concept as convergence choices turning it into a tower of Babel. German pilots only talked (-12ft) at 437 yards(400m).
Look at my 3 simple charts. 150@450yd(-8ft) or 250@450yd(-6.5ft) or 650@450yd(+1.5ft). And I only tested 2 commonly used convergence with 150 as the closest to historical.
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350
Troof.
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Dang Grizz thought you were going to wax profound here and tell people how to draw the secret dry erase lines on their monitor now that you are retired and in the Aces High Hall of Fame.
:)
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silly-string dispersion
:lol :aok
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Troof.
To 400 yards this is the flatest shooting and was the easiest in the drone circuit to single shot on demand. In the 262 I set the lower guns to 650 and upper to 350. The biggest problem became understanding high speed lateral inertia and it's effect on gunnery in the 262. I don't fly it often. Other wise out to 400 level and slow this was devastating in single taps. The Ta152 shoots it's best if you level the wings before shooting. It's harder to shoot accurate banked lead as with the K4 and 262.
Bf109-K4 -- Conv MK108 350 yards
290TS Auto level
Target-----Drop
100-------(+1.8in)
150-------(+5in)
250-------(+9in)
350-------(0.0)
450-------(-4.5ft)
550-------(-12.5ft)
650-------(-27ft)
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I just point the trigger where he's gonna be and just shoot. :)
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Dosen't hurt to know the non-real life angle to push your hollow airscrew shaft up through the spinner to turn the softball under hand pitch trajectory of the Type I, 3 cm Minengeschoss into a baseball fat lazer pitch to 400 yards. The few inches of ballistic trajectory and dispersion above gunsight level actualy helps even the random dispersion to average a slow but pretty much level shot pattern to 400.
From coalt your shots are not so much elevation dependant as lead timing dependant.
Bf109-K4 -- Conv MK108 350 yards - Airscrew shaft is fake world tilted up.
290TS Auto level
Target-----Drop
100-------(+1.8in)
150-------(+5in)
250-------(+9in)
350-------(0.0) <--Yes Joachim: "I just point the trigger where he's gonna be and just shoot."
400-------(-2ft) <--Pretty flat shooting if you know this is -2Mil@400 or just a smidge under center of your gunsight.
450-------(-4.5ft)
550-------(-12.5ft)
650-------(-27ft)
2ft versus 11ft at 400yd. 400m=437yd drop=12ft.
Real world K4 pilots would have killed for their MK108 trajectory to be like the MK103's even at 360m\sec slower. MK108 and the MK103 being introduced into our new Me410 both shoot the same Type I, 3 cm Minengeschoss. MK108 shoots 500m\sec dropping like a lead ballon versus the MK103 shoots 860m\sec like the Hisspano but, with grenades for explosive warheads.
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K4 real world tater numbers based on cannon locked into the engine line shooting from zero.
All values in the "Drop" column are inches and feet below the engine "0" centerline.
Gunsight line of sight intersects the 400m impact point at (-12ft).
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Range(M)..m\sec...ToF.....Drop......Disp......RH.Spin.Drift
0...............500......0... .....0........0...........0
50.............486....(.10s)...(2in).....###.......(1.7in)
100...........472....(.21s)...(8in).....(6.8ft)...(3.7in)
150...........459....(.31s)...(1.5ft)...###.......(5.9in)
200...........446....(.42s)...(2.7ft)...(14.0ft)..(8.4in)
250...........434....(.54s)...(4.4ft)...###.......(11.0in)
300...........422....(.63s)...(6.5ft)...(21.9ft)..(1.1ft)
350...........411....(.77s)...(9.0ft)...###.......(1.3ft)
400...........400....(.90s)...(12.0ft)..(30.2ft)..(1.6ft)<--- Revi LoS intersects here.
425.......................... ............................. ..(1.7ft)
450...........390....(1.02s)..(15.5ft)..###.......######
500...........379....(1.15s)..(19.6ft)..(39.2ft)..######
525.......................... ............................. ..(2.25ft)
550...........370....(1.29s)..(24.0ft)..###.......######
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Even though the Revi LoS was tilted down to intersect at 400m giving you the illusion of a 400m center to your reticle which was an aid for shooting at bombers. You were still pulling your aircraft's nose up to achieve the shot becasue the barrel of the MK108 was not tilted up to achive a 400m center of impact while flying level like the 110, 163 or 262 in the real world. Shots between 100-250m at fighters you would raise your nose to shoot. Unlike in the game you can tilt the barrel up via convergence to shoot with your K4 level making your manuvering easier to take shots. This gamey aspect of motor mounted MK108 is getting a bit long in the tooth now that the MK103 is being introduced to the game.
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I have mine set to 400...seems good.
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Babs,
This isnt quite right,at 425 conv anything less than that distance the round will be low,check Bustr's tables,the round only rises to the pipper at conv distance,it doesnt fly above and drop down into the pipper like shooting in RL. If this convergence range works for you great but your discription of the flight path of the bullet is not right.
You can easily check this with the dot target,set to 200 and see where your rounds land,I'm betting they will be slightly low until you push the target out to conv. distance and then drop off once past the conv. distance.
:salute
Bustr's data (and your post) is spot on, after payign closer attention to how it's workign these days. So then I was wondering why I think it's chucked high, but otherwise I definetley still like 425 because it stays pretty flat all the way out there.
As to the illusion of it being chucked high, If Im pulling back on the stick in a tight turn, and make a near dead-distance snap shot on a target passing under my nose to above it or some similar pass, the delay/lag in the HE detonating and damage being displayed on the target gives almost a near-perfect illusion to being pitched relatively high to your LoS at a near-dead distance.
More fun was getting so close to one target a night or two ago, squezing a burst of taters, and instantaneously killing the target while hiting my oil, killing my engine, and breaking my radiator. Aparently the target was inside my hollow propeller shaft, and I blew off the front half of my engine.