Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: Butcher on May 02, 2012, 05:37:16 PM
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I play another game called War in the Pacific Admirals Edition, one of the major factories in the game is level bombing which some of the best squadrons with high experience get around 9-13% accuracy at 15-22,000ft.
Normally you need to build up experience to accurately bomb or least have a better chance to hit something, norton bomb sight for example is a factor as well - however is level bombing far to easy in Aces high?
I've been plastering Mandalay in Burma with Wellington bombers, and so far the accuracy rating for 18,000ft with 14 squadrons have been around 4-8%, most of the time I don't hit anything major except for a plane here or supply dump there.
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however is level bombing far to easy in Aces high?
In comparison to the "real thing"?
Yes, by several magnitudes.
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In comparison to the "real thing"?
Yes, by several magnitudes.
What I am getting at, I know we need a balance of "arcade" vs realism to keep newer players in the game, however I think level bombing is far to arcade - one Lancaster can shut down a decent size base on its own.
Altitude and everything else is a factor of course, but why made it so easy when realistically it was not?
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One thing coming to my mind immediately:
If HTC would make level bombing 'realistically' difficult... what would happen? Yup, even more unstoppable P-51 divebomber raids. ;)
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I think if level bombing is made less accurate in AH more drones would need to be added to a single player's formation. In your first post you stated you where using 14 squadrons and achieving 4-8% accuracy in a different game; can you imagine consistently getting that kind of accuracy with only 3 planes? level bombers would quickly become the biggest hangar queens in the game (and some of them already spend most of their time in the hangar). I agree that level bombing accuracy in AH is very easy currently, but with only 3 planes to a formation I don't think is causes enough of a problem enough of the time to warrent a change.
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also, if people are unsuccessful at something, they stop trying fairly quick. Bombing is something a newb on here can do with reasonably little skill/experience even @15K. We HAVE TO have enough early success to keep people coming back.
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also, if people are unsuccessful at something, they stop trying fairly quick. Bombing is something a newb on here can do with reasonably little skill/experience even @15K. We HAVE TO have enough early success to keep people coming back.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ That sums it up right there. ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Why would some one up for a long haul mission of a possible couple of hours & get little for it.
Bombers in game would be rare indeed in AHII if the hit rate was as realistic as WWII.
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good points all around, i don't look to change anything just bring up a discussion. A major point said is correct there is not plane with three drones, I'm flying with 50-75 four engines just to shut down a small AF
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Easy fix: reduce bombing accuracy to historical levels, but give each pilot the option for up to 11 drones when he lifts.... four 3-ship formations in a diamond. :)
Reasonable damage for a bomber jock, awsome mass bomber formations, and WHOA NELLY lots of bombers for the fighter guys to kill!
Short of that, bomber guys, remember, accuracy is easy when the buffs are on the deck! Ya can't miss! :lol
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I'm curious if HTC can adjust a setting somewhere to incorporate a natural "spread" in falling bombs. In the MA's in AH, there is no wind, we have auto pilot, we have a very easy method of dialing in the bombardier sight, etc. I'm not vouching making the method of bombing harder, I'm vouching for increasing the natural spread of the falling bombs so instead of being able to drop 3/1k bombs on a hanger from 20k alt with ease, the new standard would force people to drop 4/1k bombs because of the larger variables involved.
Bombing is too easy in AH, IMO.
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I don't think the bombing is too easy given the state of game play. I think it would be nice if there was a minimum bomb level though, make the bombs need to be dropped from a minimum of 5000 feet agl or something. The lankstuka and low level carpet suicide bombing are just dumb.
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For any such change to work, gameplay wise, free bombs would have to be entirely removed from fighters, even 250lbers, the ability to damage structures with aircraft caliber guns removed or massively reduced and targets rebalanced so that worthwhile damage can be obtained with only a ~5% hit rate.
The bombs could remain on fighters, but you'd probably be looking at a minimum cost of something like 10 perks per 250lber, 20 per 500lber and 40 per 1000lber. Much lower than that and fighter dropped bombs would be too dominant and effective given the now softer target requirements to make a 5% hit rate mean something.
GVs would become much more dominant due to the sudden lack of bombs on fighters.
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I have to admit with the growing impact of unstoppable P-51 raids on CVs and bases, I'm really starting to wish for a perked ords system :pray
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I have to admit with the growing impact of unstoppable P-51 raids on CVs and bases, I'm really starting to wish for a perked ords system :pray
I have long advocated for at least the 1000lber/500kg class bombs on fighters to be perked. Perhaps the 500lber/250kg class bombs as well. But right now that could be for a very light cost, say 4 perks for a 1000lber loadout and 2 perks for a 500lber loadout. If bombers were changed to have historical accuracy levels those perk costs would not be nearly enough and you'd need the 250lber/100kg class perked as well.
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Yaaaayyy, no more porking and bomb/auger!!!
+1!
Less bombing, more dogfight!
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perk the 1K bombs, reduce the max speed at which the bomb sight can be calibrated. And maybe tune the 50cal dispersion on turrets.
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The sighting system is tooo easy IMO and to compound this the accuracy upon release is tooo high perticularly as altitude is increased. Dropping individual salvos on hangers from 20-30+ k altitude with any certainty of accuracy should be unthinkable IMO yet in AH it is met with a high certainty of success.
The targetting system for level bombers should require some form of carpet/box targetting yet it actually promotes single salvo delivery.
The most accurate method of delivering single bombs should be via attack ac............
I would support a game play balance that perked ordinance via loadout. This may be targetted at 1000lbs and above but it does not have to represent a perk # for every 1000lb bomb.
Just the loadout type e.g if you load 1000lb'ers you deposit the perk regardless of how many loaded. I would place it quite high but make it retreivable upon a successfull landing.
Ideally (but not essentially) I would add an attack perk category and deduct ordinance perks (lost) for fighter/attack aircraft from that.
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perk the 1K bombs, reduce the max speed at which the bomb sight can be calibrated. And maybe tune the 50cal dispersion on turrets.
So, not only do you want to make the level bombers less accurate, but even more of sitting duck, free kills than they are now?
Why not just remove them from the MA? It wouldn't even take coding on the part of HTC to do that.
Ideally (but not essentially) I would add an attack perk category and deduct ordinance perks (lost) for fighter/attack aircraft from that.
That would damage the whole point of perking the bombs. If they don't cost you any of your real perks (fighter) then who cares?
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I don't think the bombing is too easy given the state of game play. I think it would be nice if there was a minimum bomb level though, make the bombs need to be dropped from a minimum of 5000 feet agl or something. The lankstuka and low level carpet suicide bombing are just dumb.
That is a tough call. I have flight logs showing less than 2000 ft bombing altitudes from a B24D using 100lb bombs against Japanese shipping (transports). I agree though, the ability of the Lancs to carpet bomb a spawn point is a bit off. HTC could stop some of that by allowing bombs to only be dropped from the F6 mode (bombardier) position. That would force bombers to fly level (or at least pull up). The minimum altitude is a tough go especially when actual flight logs show that it has been done. BTW... on one return flight my grandfather's group flew at 500ft to avoid ack ack on a nearby island. Evidently, that specific target (logs just say "Jap depot") was not defended but a nearby position was and they flew below the tree line and far enough away to get under the guns.
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So, not only do you want to make the level bombers less accurate, but even more of sitting duck, free kills than they are now?
Why not just remove them from the MA? It wouldn't even take coding on the part of HTC to do that.
That would damage the whole point of perking the bombs. If they don't cost you any of your real perks (fighter) then who cares?
I didn't say anything about the accuracy, my concern is that the bombers are the best tool to kill fighters with the laser turrets and magic toughness. Reducing the max speed at which the bomb sight can be calibrated would give a more realistic drop speed, while not changing the time to target much. Also skilled bombers could learn how to manually compensate the difference between ground speed and calibrated speed and drop at max speed.
1K bomb perk would be directed against American fighter bombers, which can drop a hangar in one pass with too much ease IMO.
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my concern is that the bombers are the best tool to kill fighters with the laser turrets and magic toughness.
No need to be concerned, so far the best tool to kill fighters is still another fighter. Heavy bombers are dieing 3-1 to fighters... even though the majority insists on attacking the bombers from low 6 :bhead
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If you reduce the max speed that the bombsight can be calibrated at the Mosquito Mk XVI, Ar234B and B-29A become very hard to use as their primary defense is speed. You take that away, and given the 2+ sectors needed to stabilize their speed a lower calibration speed does take that defense away.
Lusche already pointed out how far off from reality you are on the "my concern is that the bombers are the best tool to kill fighters" claim. Only the massively perked B-29A ever obtains a 1 to 1 K/D ratio. The best defended and toughest free bomber, the B-17G, only managed to do about 0.34 kills per death.
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No need to be concerned, so far the best tool to kill fighters is still another fighter. Heavy bombers are dieing 3-1 to fighters... even though the majority insists on attacking the bombers from low 6 :bhead
This statistic is easy to diss when you see noobs that keep upping bombers from a capped field, to the grand pleasure of jet dweebs. A regular pilot will loose a bomber formation every 20-30mins, some noobs it's every minute without firing a single shot.
A decent bomber pilot will smoke your engine (or worst) 800 out whatever your angle of attack is. Fact is that a bomber formation entering radar at 15K max speed is nearly unstoppable (actually it goes faster than a lot of mid war planes)
The situation in aces high is like in the early 20's, when fighters were regarded as obsolete due to the cheer speed of bombers.
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If you don't attack a bomber like a moron you will get him forty nine times out of fifty, even if it is 999000.
The situation in aces high is like in the early 20's, when fighters were regarded as obsolete due to the cheer speed of bombers.
The only bombers that might be able to make that claim are all perked. Every other bomber, even the Ki-67, is readily intercepted by the fighters in AH.
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This statistic is easy to diss when you see noobs that keep upping bombers from a capped field, to the grand pleasure of jet dweebs. A regular pilot will loose a bomber formation every 20-30mins, some noobs it's every minute without firing a single shot.
A decent bomber pilot will smoke your engine (or worst) 800 out whatever your angle of attack is. Fact is that a bomber formation entering radar at 15K max speed is nearly unstoppable (actually it goes faster than a lot of mid war planes)
The situation in aces high is like in the early 20's, when fighters were regarded as obsolete due to the cheer speed of bombers.
It goes both ways: Noobs that keep upping in buffs from capped fields as well as noobs attacking bombers from plain 6.
If a decent bomber pilot will smoke you 800 out whatever your angel of attack is, I got good news again: We only have very few of that kind. Guys like triple 9 are incredibly rare. The utter majority of buffs I encounter at alt are simply dead meat if they don't get attacked from their plain six - which IS the prevailing mode of attack.
And yes, a bomber formation at 15k entering dar is nearly unstoppable... if you are still on the ground.
I see no problem with that, because it's easy to read darbars, fly patrols and so on. It's easy to stop them. You can even kill that bomber before he comes around for the next hangars, if you take off when he enters the dar for the first time. A BF 109K takes only 4 minutes to get to 15k.
With the notable exception of the B-29, bombers are meat on the table.
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If you reduce the max speed that the bombsight can be calibrated at the Mosquito Mk XVI, Ar234B and B-29A become very hard to use as their primary defense is speed. You take that away, and given the 2+ sectors needed to stabilize their speed a lower calibration speed does take that defense away.
correct me if I'm wrong, but all of these airframes drop at speeds much higher than in real life, while our fighters intercept as fast as they could back then
Lusche already pointed out how far off from reality you are on the "my concern is that the bombers are the best tool to kill fighters" claim. Only the massively perked B-29A ever obtains a 1 to 1 K/D ratio. The best defended and toughest free bomber, the B-17G, only managed to do about 0.34 kills per death.
I don't believe in K/D for bombers due to their massive incorrect use by newbies
There is two ways to kill bombers in aces high, catch them at take off, or climb to 30K with a massively gunned airplane and you're far from being sure to kill them bombers with their 3 lives and ultra stable guns.
One thing that also puzzles me is the difference in toughness between fighters and bombers. Aircraft aluminium is the same whatever the plane is? A good example is the titanium A20.
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Yeh...
I've been meaning to wish similar update to the bomb sights that was done to the tank sights. I also agree with limiting the bigger bombs on fighter bombers. I would also like to see the effectiveness of aircraft guns against stationary ground targets reduced.
Those changes could be balanced with target hardness adjustments for bombs in general and the percent of the town that is needed to be down for capture.
I think the end result could be overall more realistic as far as operating the bombers and tactics go and playability wouldn't be compromised either.
...I also know that any big change like this would cause massive protests...
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There is two ways to kill bombers in aces high, catch them at take off, or climb to 30K with a massively gunned airplane and you're far from being sure to kill them bombers with their 3 lives and ultra stable guns.
You definitely play a totally different game than us. Surely it's not AH.
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You definitely play a totally different game than us. Surely it's not AH.
well to be frank I don't even bother to climb to bombers anymore, it's just a waste of time (ineffective defence, too risky for little gain) and I prefer to proceed to the enemy base directly.
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Bombers are tougher because they are made up of much more material, a 20mm explosion's chunk taken out of them is, percentagewise, far smaller than it is out of a fighter and the much larger volumes inside make the blast damage from explosive rounds much less effective. Conversely, they are much easier to hit.
Why do you think a B-17G should be as fragile as a P-51D?
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well to be frank I don't even bother to climb to bombers anymore, it's just a waste of time (ineffective defence, too risky for little gain) and I prefer to proceed to the enemy base directly.
Let's see:
In the last 12 months, you have
125 kills to 7 deaths vs B-17s
123 kills to 10 deaths vs B-24s
165 kills to 5 deaths vs Lancasters
And yet you claim bombers are near invulnerable with their "titanium structure" and "lazer turrets" ? "Too risky for little gain" ?
Nice trolling! :rock
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Why do you think a B-17G should be as fragile as a P-51D?
well actually I think the 17's 24's and recently released bombers are ok, but the amount of lead that can take the lancaster, B26, A20, Ju88 (old model airplanes actually) is just ridiculous! Maybe my target was not the right one, the older models are the problem like the Yak.
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That would damage the whole point of perking the bombs. If they don't cost you any of your real perks (fighter) then who cares?
Those who wish to carry bombs will care..............
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well actually I think the 17's 24's and recently released bombers are ok, but the amount of lead that can take the lancaster, B26, A20, Ju88 (old model airplanes actually) is just ridiculous! Maybe my target was not the right one, the older models are the problem like the Yak.
B-17G's tail takes 17 Hispano hits to remove. Lancaster's takes 14.
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It's a fine line that HTC has to walk. On one side there are those that are looking for some kind of "experience" while they play, on the other hand there are those that just want to play a game. Make it too hard....or like real life and the gamers leave. Make it too easy and you lose the "sim" players.
I think it would be great if they could tie in alt as a factor to bombing. All kinds of controls could be added then. dive bombing lancs, due to release alt could have error factors added in for dispersal and so get fewer hits where level bombing at alts between 7 and 15k produce much better hits as well as points. You could make flying a buff "correctly" or more realistic does a better job in the game as well as points wise. Lead players toward more realistic play, while still having fun of playing a game and getting down what your team needs down.
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Let's see:
In the last 12 months, you have
125 kills to 7 deaths vs B-17s
123 kills to 10 deaths vs B-24s
165 kills to 5 deaths vs Lancasters
And yet you claim bombers are near invulnerable with their "titanium structure" and "lazer turrets" ? "Too risky for little gain" ?
Nice trolling! :rock
? Huh? :huh Bomers, even B-29's are sooooo easy to kill. Most gunners aren't worth crap either. :x :neener:
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? Huh? :huh
What part is making you go :huh ?
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What part is making you go :huh ?
Your quoting people saying Lazer Turrets, Too risky, little gain, Duffuses all!
Not at you Lusche...
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Your quoting people saying Lazer Turrets, etc. Not at you Lusche...
Ahh
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Simple and I like the idea of adding 4 3 plane drone formations of bombers to the single piloted already. It would make it obscenely difficult to penetrate the bombers defensive network...especially if you could have 3 other pilots join you for gunning in the other 3 formations. Also I say make it a hard deck of something like 4k for formations of bombers to be able to actually drop bombs. This would eliminate the bomb and bail babies.
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I play another game called War in the Pacific Admirals Edition, one of the major factories in the game is level bombing which some of the best squadrons with high experience get around 9-13% accuracy at 15-22,000ft.
Normally you need to build up experience to accurately bomb or least have a better chance to hit something, norton bomb sight for example is a factor as well - however is level bombing far to easy in Aces high?
I've been plastering Mandalay in Burma with Wellington bombers, and so far the accuracy rating for 18,000ft with 14 squadrons have been around 4-8%, most of the time I don't hit anything major except for a plane here or supply dump there.
-1...This game already has a massive learning curve. Why make it harder for people to play?
I have a better idea. How about adding more planes, more loadouts and enable bombers to fly even when the ords are down.
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Let's see:
In the last 12 months, you have
125 kills to 7 deaths vs B-17s
123 kills to 10 deaths vs B-24s
165 kills to 5 deaths vs Lancasters
And yet you claim bombers are near invulnerable with their "titanium structure" and "lazer turrets" ? "Too risky for little gain" ?
Nice trolling! :rock
I don't think that using my score to compare airframes is representative of anything, you could get to conclusions like the P51D is superior to the me262 or tempest :D
Also as I said I am looking for low bombers to kill, but high bombers aren't looking fior low fighters to kill :D
But I submit, it's probably a better idea to look into the bomb dispersion than into the survivability on the bombers. But I maintain that the guns and speed of the bombers aren't realistic enough, the Bob event is a good example of that.
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AH used to have a more difficult bombing system. Manual bomb sight calibration is still available in the arena setup. When it was used in the MA, people either stopped flying bombers, or used them as dive bombers.
Not that it was impossible to hit with manual calibration. It simply took (quite a lot) more time and a bit of skill to do it right and only the dedicated bomber players got good results. Unfortunately, the majority of buff pilots at any given moment are either noobs or fighter pilots that took a buff for a spin - both do poorly with the manual system and resort to dive bombing.
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AH used to have a more difficult bombing system. Manual bomb sight calibration is still available in the arena setup. When it was used in the MA, people either stopped flying bombers, or used them as dive bombers.
Not that it was impossible to hit with manual calibration. It simply took (quite a lot) more time and a bit of skill to do it right and only the dedicated bomber players got good results. Unfortunately, the majority of buff pilots at any given moment are either noobs or fighter pilots that took a buff for a spin - both do poorly with the manual system and resort to dive bombing.
For me it was exactly the same accuracy as the current system, only instead of holding the cross hairs on a particular point and holding the T key down for 30 seconds, now I just hold the T key down for 30 seconds. Both a a good bit away from the original "Bombs land where the crosshairs are pointing no matter how wild the maneuvering is."
You are correct about the effective result of manual calibration though. A great number of players simply could not hit anything with it, so they either abandoned bombers or just used them as big dive bombers.
Forcing bombers to have 5-10% accuracy would have the same effect, bomber using players would just mass switch to using P-51s, P-47s and Typhoons.
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-1...This game already has a massive learning curve. Why make it harder for people to play?
I have a better idea. How about adding more planes, more loadouts and enable bombers to fly even when the ords are down.
What is the point of the ords then? That would rule tanks out of the game in the heart beat - see what happens when you take ords down at a base, then up a panther to drive on the runway, next thing you know
some lone Ju87 takes off with a 2kg bomb and bombs you...
There are ways to bend the curve so it doesn't change much, I suggest adding a 4th drone to a formation, and lower the accuracy of bombs, everything else stays the same.
The lower accuracy doesn't allow people to fly to 20k and pin point bomb every hanger dead, this is why there is a 4th drone - a higher chance to get some ords on target, but the accuracy will be much lower.
Allowing people to pinpoint bomb is rather arcade, the game is easy enough you don't need this, however I know for a fact it won't happen, just throwing my idea out there because frankly the only point to bombers now
is taking up B-29s to 30k then pickling off one bomb into each town square, then landing..
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Butcher,
Drones do not significantly increase your odds of hitting anything. Bombs already have drift added to them, so that cannot be done. All that could be done to produce historical inaccuracy would be to make the bombsights historically inaccurate.
However, all that would do is push players into P-51Ds or into using Lancasters almost exclusively as a large dive bomber.
Essentially the entire game would need to be rebalanced in order to make historical accuracy a viable thing. I am not saying that would be a bad thing, but it would be a lot of work for HTC. GVers would love it as the bombs and rockets would pretty much need to be removed from all fighters and bombers wouldn't be able to hit a target as small as a tank without a lot of luck.
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Butcher,
Drones do not significantly increase your odds of hitting anything. Bombs already have drift added to them, so that cannot be done. All that could be done to produce historical inaccuracy would be to make the bombsights historically inaccurate.
However, all that would do is push players into P-51Ds or into using Lancasters almost exclusively as a large dive bomber.
Essentially the entire game would need to be rebalanced in order to make historical accuracy a viable thing. I am not saying that would be a bad thing, but it would be a lot of work for HTC. GVers would love it as the bombs and rockets would pretty much need to be removed from all fighters and bombers wouldn't be able to hit a target as small as a tank without a lot of luck.
that's one reason it won't ever happen, having to re balance the game is far to much work, also we already have enough lanc-stukas and P51s as it is - I'd much rather prefer to shy away from having anything done that may cause those numbers to rise anymore then they already are.
Prime example:
Was in a Panther last tour - spawned into an enemy field, I was the only tank there and was heading towards town - to my amazement a set of lanc's upped and darted right for me, dropping 7x 1,000lb bombs on me and missed, second time around got me.
This has been popping up more and more lately, I am not whining - I upped a wirbl and shot down all 3, however nobody else upped to play.
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that's one reason it won't ever happen, having to re balance the game is far to much work, also we already have enough lanc-stukas and P51s as it is - I'd much rather prefer to shy away from having anything done that may cause those numbers to rise anymore then they already are.
Prime example:
Was in a Panther last tour - spawned into an enemy field, I was the only tank there and was heading towards town - to my amazement a set of lanc's upped and darted right for me, dropping 7x 1,000lb bombs on me and missed, second time around got me.
This has been popping up more and more lately, I am not whining - I upped a wirbl and shot down all 3, however nobody else upped to play.
While it's kind of lame, it falls under the old "It's their $15". It certainly doesn't help your score, nor does it help stop a base take as you were the only guy there so it was easy enough to figure out it wasn't a base capture mission.
I'd like to see the parameters change for a base capture.
1, you MUST load a mission in the mission planner.
2, the mission must include fighters and bombers, and bomber must bomb from over 10k
3, missions have no more than 20 people in them
4, when capturing the base the system checks to be sure 50% of bombers and 25% of fighter from the mission are inside the dar circle.
5, for defense, if attacking numbers are above 20, for each 2 players more inside the dar circle a new ack gun is added to the field.
This way it either cuts down on the hordes (because it would be easier to capture with fewer) or it would make it harder to capture with more and more people, it would bring more buffs into the missions and they would have to fight and protect each other to maintain the numbers for the capture. As it is now the quickest and easiest way to grab the base is what they do. 40 heavy P51 do the job very easily, and it is why you see them. It use to be 110's and NIKs but the increase in ack would wipe out the slower planes and it took that extra time to fly there.
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I think the balance of the game is darn near perfect.
I agree the level bombing easier than real life, but this a game. It has to be enjoyable to the majority of the players.
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I think the balance of the game is darn near perfect.
I agree the level bombing easier than real life, but this a game. It has to be enjoyable to the majority of the players.
no matter how hard you try.
no matter what you do.
somthing in the game will destroy your cartoon plane/bomber/tank.
so yeah I would say the balance is pretty good. no one gets out alive :D