Aces High Bulletin Board
Help and Support Forums => Help and Training => Topic started by: shiv on May 05, 2012, 10:45:32 PM
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Dueled a gentleman from Midwar recently, who picked the A6m2, Spit V, Brewster, and A6m5b. And beat me 3 of 4 in those, and the one I won I was lucky.
In each he got in trouble and went to a Lufbery, and each time as I had better angles I committed to it also. And each time, about 3 minutes later, I had lost enough ground that all I had left was to try a last ditch reversal and it usually didn't end well.
I did have all flaps out each fight- thinking maybe the key is too stay faster, wondering what the conventional wisdom is, outside of not getting into a lufbery in the first place.
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Lufbery = Spiral Climb? :headscratch:
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- thinking maybe the key is too stay faster,
That's probably it. You got too slow for a good sustained turn rate. Also Zekes turn better without flaps.
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Lufbery = Spiral Climb? :headscratch:
Luftberry = going round and round in circles chasing each other's tail and trying to get a shot off
Early War planes are great turn fighters, partly because they are slower to begin with and partly because they are lighter than the more heavily armored (and armed) Late War planes that everyone else seems to want to fly all the time.
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So a flat turn... ?
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Generally ride the stall buzzer, flaps out, without entering the buffet to maximize turn rate.
That said depending on what you're flying and who your fighting you may have to pull into the buffet or stay out of the buzzer, drop flaps or leave them up, use WEP or not (even with flaps out) then quickly judge if your gaining or losing ground and change tactics if needed.
Wobble and you lose.
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just go up, carry it as far as you can roll inverted towards the top come down and end his flight :D
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Generally ride the stall buzzer, flaps out, without entering the buffet to maximize turn rate.
Turn rate is maximal at the minimum speed in which you can reach the G limit (blackout). If turn RATE is all that you want to maximize, use a low nose (below the horizon) to sustain your speed in the turn. The cost is lots of E and since the speed is sustained, you pay in the currency of alt.
I did have all flaps out each fight- thinking maybe the key is too stay faster, wondering what the conventional wisdom is, outside of not getting into a lufbery in the first place.
Flaps have only a minimal advantage in turn rate. They do help a lot with turn RADIUS, by acting as speed breaks and by allowing you to fly slower (sustained).
Many new pilots do not understand the difference between turn rate and radius. Both are important, so in most practical conditions, ignoring one and trying to maximize the other will make you loose. You need to start thinking in terms of more complicated geometry. You probably imagine a flat turn fight as two planes flying around a circle - that is rarely the case. Usually the two planes will be flying in two circles, each one on a circle of its own and the center of the two will be offset.
Now do the following thought experiment: you are chasing a plane at some distance "D" behind it, both of you are at the same speed in the same model plane. He goes into a max sustained flat left turn, and you immediate do the same. What will happen?
Well, you two are now flying in two circles where the center of yours is distance "D" offset from his. Initially, you will start to pull a lead on him and you will see him disappear under your nose - even though you are NOT turning faster or smaller! Lets say that you both continue to pull the exact same sustained turn. Then, half a circle later, he is on your 6 in a firing position exactly the reverse of how it was half a circle ago, even though he had absolutely no advantage in turn rate or radius.
So you see, our perception of "out turning" someone is very misleading. You can out turn or be out turned regardless of your turn rate or radius vs. what the other guy is pulling. Once you realize that dogfights are not fought in a circle, but in circles and that two circles do not have to be co-centric, you can have the next epiphany that those circles do not have to be horizontal. Take one step at a time though. Record some fights and view them with trailers on from external view zoomed out. You'd be surprised how the flight paths actually looked like.
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Turn rate is maximal at the minimum speed in which you can reach the G limit (blackout). If turn RATE is all that you want to maximize, use a low nose (below the horizon) to sustain your speed in the turn. The cost is lots of E and since the speed is sustained, you pay in the currency of alt.
Except I was talking about a typical Lufbery at stall speeds where no one is able to pull to blackout. You might have figured that out had you read the part about the stall buzzer and buffeting. Rate vs radius is still important even at those slower speeds.
And this is why I usually don't contribute to these threads.
And I meant flaps in not out.
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shiv,
There is a trick in luftbery, that can be used when you get stuck in one. The trick is to use a very high instantaneous turn rate that can only be used in a short burst. Lets use an F4U example (never saw that coming right). Two F4U's stuck on the deck turning full flaps at 100-110 mph at 180 degrees to each other, total stale mate. One F4u pulls back in a notch of flaps and eases his turn ever so slightly. The other corsair gains a little bit, but not much since the one that pulled in a notch of flaps is now doing about 125 in a slightly bigger circle, but going around it faster. Now if the other Corsair didn't gain much on the one that pulled in a notch of flaps, the one Corsair then pulls in another notch and eases the turn a bit more to stay out of stall, speed should gain to about 135-140. The other Corsair will have gained a bit more, but remember he is still at about 100-110mph. The Corsair with two nothes in, now has enough airspeed to work a little bit in the verticle and two notches of flaps to dump to accomplish it. This is where instantaneous turn rate can be taken advantage of. By pulling hard and dumping both notches of flaps in quick succession you can have the turn radius of full flaps but at a much higher speed (130 or so). This gives you a real quick nose swing, until your speed is back to 100-110 again. So the duration of this is very short lived. But using this to cut a corner vertically can gain you the advantage. Sometimes it may take a couple verticles to finally get into firing position but it does work. This works especially well if you are stuck in a luftbery with an advantage and only one corner cut may get you the solution you need. If you are stuck in a luftbery with a big disadvantage (almost on your 6, equal E, on the deck), you are in a bad spot. Best start looking for a flat scissors and you don't get hit too hard on the first cut. I personally hate luftbery's and try everything to avoid them, but sometimes they happen.
:salute
BigRat
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just go up, carry it as far as you can roll inverted towards the top come down and end his flight :D
Yeah and the trick is to do it when you see him start the luftberry.
If you wait you won't be carrying enough E to finish the climb.
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Yeah and the trick is to do it when you see him start the luftberry.
If you wait you won't be carrying enough E to finish the climb.
very true....that's why I always fly in the vert, as much as possible anyways, the luft is one of the easiest ACM to counter(if not easiest)
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Dueled a gentleman from Midwar recently, who picked the A6m2, Spit V, Brewster, and A6m5b. And beat me 3 of 4 in those, and the one I won I was lucky.
In each he got in trouble and went to a Lufbery, and each time as I had better angles I committed to it also. And each time, about 3 minutes later, I had lost enough ground that all I had left was to try a last ditch reversal and it usually didn't end well.
I did have all flaps out each fight- thinking maybe the key is too stay faster, wondering what the conventional wisdom is, outside of not getting into a lufbery in the first place.
You lost the Luftberry because you were blowing all of your remaining energy pulling lead trying to get a shot off in the turn.
ack-ack
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(http://fcdn.valka.cz/attachments/65/thumbs/lufbery.JPG)
Here's an example of the Luftbery Circle - as you can see its a Ww1 strategy used in WW2 early on.
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shiv,
There is a trick in luftbery, that can be used when you get stuck in one. The trick is to use a very high instantaneous turn rate that can only be used in a short burst. Lets use an F4U example (never saw that coming right). Two F4U's stuck on the deck turning full flaps at 100-110 mph at 180 degrees to each other, total stale mate. One F4u pulls back in a notch of flaps and eases his turn ever so slightly. The other corsair gains a little bit, but not much since the one that pulled in a notch of flaps is now doing about 125 in a slightly bigger circle, but going around it faster. Now if the other Corsair didn't gain much on the one that pulled in a notch of flaps, the one Corsair then pulls in another notch and eases the turn a bit more to stay out of stall, speed should gain to about 135-140. The other Corsair will have gained a bit more, but remember he is still at about 100-110mph. The Corsair with two nothes in, now has enough airspeed to work a little bit in the verticle and two notches of flaps to dump to accomplish it. This is where instantaneous turn rate can be taken advantage of. By pulling hard and dumping both notches of flaps in quick succession you can have the turn radius of full flaps but at a much higher speed (130 or so). This gives you a real quick nose swing, until your speed is back to 100-110 again. So the duration of this is very short lived. But using this to cut a corner vertically can gain you the advantage. Sometimes it may take a couple verticles to finally get into firing position but it does work. This works especially well if you are stuck in a luftbery with an advantage and only one corner cut may get you the solution you need. If you are stuck in a luftbery with a big disadvantage (almost on your 6, equal E, on the deck), you are in a bad spot. Best start looking for a flat scissors and you don't get hit too hard on the first cut. I personally hate luftbery's and try everything to avoid them, but sometimes they happen.
:salute
BigRat
Thanks Rat, really like this idea. <<S>>
just go up, carry it as far as you can roll inverted towards the top come down and end his flight :D
Next time for sure.
You lost the Luftberry because you were blowing all of your remaining energy pulling lead trying to get a shot off in the turn.
ack-ack
Well put.
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You lost the Luftberry because you were blowing all of your remaining energy pulling lead trying to get a shot off in the turn.
ack-ack
this quote is golden.
"IF" you want to follow the circle go to "lag" pursuit and yoyo low into your shots...this keeps your energy and gives YOU the opportunity to exit with more energy if you choose.
In simple terms....follow the SAME flight path without cutting across for a shot...build energy with the low dive and pull out for vert or escape
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this quote is golden.
"IF" you want to follow the circle go to "lag" pursuit and yoyo low into your shots...this keeps your energy and gives YOU the opportunity to exit with more energy if you choose.
In simple terms....follow the SAME flight path without cutting across for a shot...build energy with the low dive and pull out for vert or escape
Which is basically saying "Aircraft that circle a field to hide in the ack as usual" - use lag pursuit to take your shots, then accelerate and climb out (Window of opportunity to escape) to avoid all damage.
Usually its Spit 16s and La7s, occasionally its a p51 or I-16/Brewster combo, works every time if you don't decide to dump E and follow the bandit right back into Ack.
/Agent is wise, want to learn the 109? talk to him
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Please, it's not "luftberry." Let's remember the WWI Franco-American 17-kill ace Raoul Lufbery by his correct name: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raoul_Lufbery (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raoul_Lufbery)
And by definition, a Lufbery Circle (or "defensive circle") is something that one plane cannot fly all alone.
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Please, it's not "luftberry." Let's remember the WWI Franco-American 17-kill ace Raoul Lufbery by his correct name: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raoul_Lufbery (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raoul_Lufbery)
And by definition, a Lufbery Circle (or "defensive circle") is something that one plane cannot fly all alone.
The Lufbery defensive tactic is the origin of the term but Lufbery basically now has two meanings. The original, which was used by Mig 17/21 in Vietnam and is still used by some airplanes such as the A-10, is a generalized ACM term which simply describes two adversaries flying the same flat circle.
When you get down to it, all ACM fights boil down to NRG management by trading altitude for airspeed and visa versa. Given that none of the WWII aircraft have close to a 1:1 thrust to weight ratio means all fights will eventually degenerate to turns on the deck if they go on long enough and that's where you'll see the Lufbery and where it'll really get you in trouble. You're both flat on the deck with insufficient E for any vertical moves and now it's nothing but time and turn rate. If nothing is done the airplane with the better rate (whether through inherent aircraft performance or superior pilot skill) will eventually win and there are very few options if you're the one becoming more and more defensive. Even if you've got the best turn rate a Lufbery still sucks because it can take so long to resolve making you perfectly predictable and easy pickings. In the end, a Lufbery is a dead-end trap for both of you in a multi-bogey environment.
Also, as some have mentioned, you need to know what flap configuration for your ride gives the best RATE performance. With some airplanes it's no flaps, others full, and lots are somewhere in between. It's easy to figure this out without charts. Just find yourself an empty airfield, line up on the runway and start a hardest turn. When your airplane stabilizing at it's max sustained airspeed for that turn then time 10 level turns. Divide the results by 10 and you'll know how long each turn takes. Repeat this for all your flap positions and you'll know what works best for your airplane. Also, if you get stuck in a lufbery use WEP until it's gone. There's no reason at all not to use it and the additional thrust will help.
If you find yourself locked in a Lufbery, and regardless of how you got there and who has the advantage, usually the best option is for your wingman to intervene simply to cut the fight short (obviously, not applicable in a duel). Also, obviously, that's not always going to happen. Reversing is a lousy option because you've basically just given him the angles he needs and solved his problem for him and he won't be carrying anywhere near enough speed to cause him to overshoot. You can also attempt to use terrain and obstructions by really getting down in the weeds hoping he'll make a mistake. A better option would be to drift the fight close to something like a ravine and then get over the edge and accelerate for some separation and either escape or use the gained AGL altitude to redefine the fight. If none of these options are available then get your flaps up and flatten your turn a bit to gain some speed. Your adversary may simply think he's gaining the angles he wants (and you will be giving him angles) and he'll keep his turn tight to get his shot while not realizing you're actually accelerating away. Obviously the success of this tactic is completely reliant on which plane accelerates fastest and how long it takes for him to recognize what you're doing. If you're unable to gain meaningful separation you still cannot reverse, even with a yo-yo, without giving him an easy shot.
The two keys to this are related. First, don't get in one. Second, recognize you are and make an early decision to change the fight and/or disengage while you still have some altitude/airspeed to work with. If you see a Lufbery developing on the deck use high/low yo-yo combinations while you still have the E to do it. The high yo-yo gives you relatively sharp turns and the low yo-yo helps you gain/maintain E. Let your adversary keep turning flat and the yo-yo combos should result in your victory. If you still aren't getting any shot opportunities, use the high yo-yo to take your adversary as close to 180 out, accelerate in the low yo-yo and extend or exit.
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I would like to mention the yo-yos are viable only if you have more energy than the other guy. If not, he will be able to maintain a higher turn rate and get behind your 3/9 line. Remember, aircraft accelerate best in a straight line, not by climbing and diving.
The best option you have if you are losing the circle has already been stated: slowly relieve pressure on the stick and bring flaps in. Do not suddenly stop turning, you want to accelerate while making your opponent turn as far as you can make him at the same time.