The Lufbery

[shiv]

Dueled a gentleman from Midwar recently, who picked the A6m2, Spit V, Brewster, and A6m5b. And beat me 3 of 4 in those, and the one I won I was lucky.

In each he got in trouble and went to a Lufbery, and each time as I had better angles I committed to it also. And each time, about 3 minutes later, I had lost enough ground that all I had left was to try a last ditch reversal and it usually didn't end well.

I did have all flaps out each fight- thinking maybe the key is too stay faster, wondering what the conventional wisdom is, outside of not getting into a lufbery in the first place.

[RedBull1]

Lufbery = Spiral Climb? 

[FLS]

- thinking maybe the key is too stay faster,

That's probably it. You got too slow for a good sustained turn rate. Also Zekes turn better without flaps.

[ImADot]

Lufbery = Spiral Climb? 

Luftberry = going round and round in circles chasing each other's tail and trying to get a shot off

Early War planes are great turn fighters, partly because they are slower to begin with and partly because they are lighter than the more heavily armored (and armed) Late War planes that everyone else seems to want to fly all the time.

[RedBull1]

So a flat turn... ?

[BaldEagl]

Generally ride the stall buzzer, flaps out, without entering the buffet to maximize turn rate.

That said depending on what you're flying and who your fighting you may have to pull into the buffet or stay out of the buzzer, drop flaps or leave them up, use WEP or not (even with flaps out) then quickly judge if your gaining or losing ground and change tactics if needed.

Wobble and you lose.

[ink]

just go up, carry it as far as you can roll inverted towards the top come down and end his flight

[bozon]

Generally ride the stall buzzer, flaps out, without entering the buffet to maximize turn rate.

Turn rate is maximal at the minimum speed in which you can reach the G limit (blackout). If turn RATE is all that you want to maximize, use a low nose (below the horizon) to sustain your speed in the turn. The cost is lots of E and since the speed is sustained, you pay in the currency of alt.

I did have all flaps out each fight- thinking maybe the key is too stay faster, wondering what the conventional wisdom is, outside of not getting into a lufbery in the first place.

Flaps have only a minimal advantage in turn rate. They do help a lot with turn RADIUS, by acting as speed breaks and by allowing you to fly slower (sustained).

Many new pilots do not understand the difference between turn rate and radius. Both are important, so in most practical conditions, ignoring one and trying to maximize the other will make you loose. You need to start thinking in terms of more complicated geometry. You probably imagine a flat turn fight as two planes flying around a circle - that is rarely the case. Usually the two planes will be flying in two circles, each one on a circle of its own and the center of the two will be offset.

Now do the following thought experiment: you are chasing a plane at some distance "D" behind it, both of you are at the same speed in the same model plane. He goes into a max sustained flat left turn, and you immediate do the same. What will happen?
Well, you two are now flying in two circles where the center of yours is distance "D" offset from his. Initially, you will start to pull a lead on him and you will see him disappear under your nose - even though you are NOT turning faster or smaller! Lets say that you both continue to pull the exact same sustained turn. Then, half a circle later, he is on your 6 in a firing position exactly the reverse of how it was half a circle ago, even though he had absolutely no advantage in turn rate or radius.

So you see, our perception of "out turning" someone is very misleading. You can out turn or be out turned regardless of your turn rate or radius vs. what the other guy is pulling. Once you realize that dogfights are not fought in a circle, but in circles and that two circles do not have to be co-centric, you can have the next epiphany that those circles do not have to be horizontal. Take one step at a time though. Record some fights and view them with trailers on from external view zoomed out. You'd be surprised how the flight paths actually looked like.

[BaldEagl]

Turn rate is maximal at the minimum speed in which you can reach the G limit (blackout). If turn RATE is all that you want to maximize, use a low nose (below the horizon) to sustain your speed in the turn. The cost is lots of E and since the speed is sustained, you pay in the currency of alt.

Except I was talking about a typical Lufbery at stall speeds where no one is able to pull to blackout. You might have figured that out had you read the part about the stall buzzer and buffeting.  Rate vs radius is still important even at those slower speeds.

And this is why I usually don't contribute to these threads.

And I meant flaps in not out.

[Big Rat]

shiv,

There is a trick in luftbery, that can be used when you get stuck in one.  The trick is to use a very high instantaneous turn rate that can only be used in a short burst.  Lets use an F4U example (never saw that coming right).  Two F4U's stuck on the deck turning full flaps at 100-110 mph at 180 degrees to each other, total stale mate.  One F4u pulls back in a notch of flaps and eases his turn ever so slightly.  The other corsair gains a little bit, but not much since the one that pulled in a notch of flaps is now doing about 125 in a slightly bigger circle, but going around it faster.  Now if the other Corsair didn't gain much on the one that pulled in a notch of flaps, the one Corsair then pulls in another notch and eases the turn a bit more to stay out of stall, speed should gain to about 135-140.  The other Corsair will have gained a bit more, but remember he is still at about 100-110mph.  The Corsair with two nothes in, now has enough airspeed to work a little bit in the verticle and two notches of flaps to dump to accomplish it.  This is where instantaneous turn rate can be taken advantage of.  By pulling hard and dumping both notches of flaps in quick succession you can have the turn radius of full flaps but at a much higher speed (130 or so).  This gives you a real quick nose swing, until your speed is back to 100-110 again.  So the duration of this is very short lived.  But using this to cut a corner vertically can gain you the advantage.  Sometimes it may take a couple verticles to finally get into firing position but it does work.  This works especially well if you are stuck in a luftbery with an advantage and only one corner cut may get you the solution you need.  If you are stuck in a luftbery with a big disadvantage (almost on your 6, equal E, on the deck), you are in a bad spot.  Best start looking for a flat scissors and you don't get hit too hard on the first cut.  I personally hate luftbery's and try everything to avoid them, but sometimes they happen.

 
BigRat           

[kilo2]

just go up, carry it as far as you can roll inverted towards the top come down and end his flight

Yeah and the trick is to do it when you see him start the luftberry.

If you wait you won't be carrying enough E to finish the climb.

[ink]

Yeah and the trick is to do it when you see him start the luftberry.

If you wait you won't be carrying enough E to finish the climb.

very true....that's why I always fly in the vert, as much as possible anyways, the luft is one of the easiest ACM to counter(if not easiest)

[Ack-Ack]

Dueled a gentleman from Midwar recently, who picked the A6m2, Spit V, Brewster, and A6m5b. And beat me 3 of 4 in those, and the one I won I was lucky.

In each he got in trouble and went to a Lufbery, and each time as I had better angles I committed to it also. And each time, about 3 minutes later, I had lost enough ground that all I had left was to try a last ditch reversal and it usually didn't end well.

I did have all flaps out each fight- thinking maybe the key is too stay faster, wondering what the conventional wisdom is, outside of not getting into a lufbery in the first place.

You lost the Luftberry because you were blowing all of your remaining energy pulling lead trying to get a shot off in the turn. 

ack-ack

[Butcher]

Here's an example of the Luftbery Circle - as you can see its a Ww1 strategy used in WW2 early on.

[shiv]

shiv,

There is a trick in luftbery, that can be used when you get stuck in one.  The trick is to use a very high instantaneous turn rate that can only be used in a short burst.  Lets use an F4U example (never saw that coming right).  Two F4U's stuck on the deck turning full flaps at 100-110 mph at 180 degrees to each other, total stale mate.  One F4u pulls back in a notch of flaps and eases his turn ever so slightly.  The other corsair gains a little bit, but not much since the one that pulled in a notch of flaps is now doing about 125 in a slightly bigger circle, but going around it faster.  Now if the other Corsair didn't gain much on the one that pulled in a notch of flaps, the one Corsair then pulls in another notch and eases the turn a bit more to stay out of stall, speed should gain to about 135-140.  The other Corsair will have gained a bit more, but remember he is still at about 100-110mph.  The Corsair with two nothes in, now has enough airspeed to work a little bit in the verticle and two notches of flaps to dump to accomplish it.  This is where instantaneous turn rate can be taken advantage of.  By pulling hard and dumping both notches of flaps in quick succession you can have the turn radius of full flaps but at a much higher speed (130 or so).  This gives you a real quick nose swing, until your speed is back to 100-110 again.  So the duration of this is very short lived.  But using this to cut a corner vertically can gain you the advantage.  Sometimes it may take a couple verticles to finally get into firing position but it does work.  This works especially well if you are stuck in a luftbery with an advantage and only one corner cut may get you the solution you need.  If you are stuck in a luftbery with a big disadvantage (almost on your 6, equal E, on the deck), you are in a bad spot.  Best start looking for a flat scissors and you don't get hit too hard on the first cut.  I personally hate luftbery's and try everything to avoid them, but sometimes they happen.

 
BigRat           

Thanks Rat, really like this idea. <<S>>

just go up, carry it as far as you can roll inverted towards the top come down and end his flight

Next time for sure.

You lost the Luftberry because you were blowing all of your remaining energy pulling lead trying to get a shot off in the turn. 

ack-ack

Well put.