Aces High Bulletin Board

General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: viking73 on May 18, 2012, 02:54:17 PM

Title: USA's jet fighter that wasn't built
Post by: viking73 on May 18, 2012, 02:54:17 PM
Lockheed L-133 was US first jet but when Lockheed approach the military before the war to build it, the military turned it down, wanting bombers instead. When the 262 was discovered, Lockheed was quickly re-approached by the military to get something built. Thus the P-80. Ar-234's were flying over Italy and giving the Germans knowledge of everything going on. A squadron of P-80's were rushed to Italy with the single mission of hunting and shooting down the 234's. However, the 234's sorties were so scattered that the P-80's never could find them.

Who is in charge of adding planes to AH2? Seems to me this is enough to qualify it as a WW2 combat aircraft.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=O3viiJ4g5G8 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=O3viiJ4g5G8)
Title: Re: USA's jet fighter that wasn't built
Post by: 4Prop on May 18, 2012, 02:57:47 PM
L-133 never flew
Title: Re: USA's jet fighter that wasn't built
Post by: morfiend on May 18, 2012, 03:02:06 PM
 It wasnt a squadron of P80 in Italy it was 2 or 3 at most and they never went into combat but were used in a trials phaze.

   So sorry but it doesnt quite make to requirement for inclussion,however I have never seen it writen in stone what exactly are the requirement for inclussion into AH.


    :salute
Title: Re: USA's jet fighter that wasn't built
Post by: viking73 on May 18, 2012, 03:12:21 PM
L-133 never flew

Really? No Duh. I said it wasn't built.

It wasnt a squadron of P80 in Italy it was 2 or 3 at most and they never went into combat but were used in a trials phaze.

   So sorry but it doesnt quite make to requirement for inclussion,however I have never seen it writen in stone what exactly are the requirement for inclussion into AH.


    :salute

It has to have been in Combat. There is no number requirement. It was a squadron of 4 P-80's. I think chasing down the 234 to shoot it down qualifies as combat missions.
Title: Re: USA's jet fighter that wasn't built
Post by: 4Prop on May 18, 2012, 03:35:15 PM
ok I thought u were asking for the L133
Title: Re: USA's jet fighter that wasn't built
Post by: Lusche on May 18, 2012, 03:41:15 PM
Lockheed L-133 was US first jet but when Lockheed approach the military before the war to build it, the military turned it down, wanting bombers instead.

I would have thought that to qualify as "first jet" it should have existed...  :headscratch:
Title: Re: USA's jet fighter that wasn't built
Post by: viking73 on May 18, 2012, 03:52:37 PM
I would have thought that to qualify as "first jet" it should have existed...  :headscratch:

Ok, it was the first jet researched and approached to the government to build. Picky

I'm wondering how many of you responding have even seen the video yet.

Also The British Gloster Meteor did shot down 13 V-1's in 1944 (think the year is right)

Bill Yenne writes in his book 'Lockheed', "In early 1945 two Shooting Stars were sent to England and another pair to Italy. They actually went on patrol searching for Me-262 and Heinkel He- 162 jet fighters, but there was to be no air-to-air combat between jets during World War II.
Title: Re: USA's jet fighter that wasn't built
Post by: morfiend on May 18, 2012, 04:07:45 PM
Really? No Duh. I said it wasn't built.

It has to have been in Combat. There is no number requirement. It was a squadron of 4 P-80's. I think chasing down the 234 to shoot it down qualifies as combat missions.

 So are you saying the P80's shot down an Ar234?   I have never heard of this before,any link so I can read more?


    :salute
Title: Re: USA's jet fighter that wasn't built
Post by: Ack-Ack on May 18, 2012, 07:02:13 PM
So are you saying the P80's shot down an Ar234?   I have never heard of this before,any link so I can read more?


    :salute

He's claiming that both of the P-80s sent to Italy were sent there to hunt down Ar234 recce flights but there aren't any official USAAF reports to back up those claims.

ack-ack
Title: Re: USA's jet fighter that wasn't built
Post by: morfiend on May 18, 2012, 07:22:35 PM
He's claiming that both of the P-80s sent to Italy were sent there to hunt down Ar234 recce flights but there aren't any official USAAF reports to back up those claims.

ack-ack

  Ack, if you check the youtube link you'll see they make mention of this!  however like most history channel docs I take it with a grain of salt. I'm sure you 38 guys could find errors with the stuff covered on the 38 as well.

       I always refer to the 6 50mm cannons that the P51 had!!! :devil

    I've never seen any reports either but then I've never seen HTC's inclussion requirements either!


    :salute
Title: Re: USA's jet fighter that wasn't built
Post by: B4Buster on May 18, 2012, 07:53:23 PM
He's claiming that both of the P-80s sent to Italy were sent there to hunt down Ar234 recce flights but there aren't any official USAAF reports to back up those claims.

ack-ack

Nor have in. In fact, I believe they were grounded shortly after reaching Italy.
Title: Re: USA's jet fighter that wasn't built
Post by: lyric1 on May 18, 2012, 08:00:57 PM
What I have found so far.
Most of the links don't work anymore on the first site.

http://forum.armyairforces.com/1st-FG-and-the-Lockheed-YP80A-Shooting-Star-m94873.aspx

http://warbirdsforum.com/showthread.php?t=990

http://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=71485

Title: Re: USA's jet fighter that wasn't built
Post by: Guppy35 on May 18, 2012, 08:29:47 PM
He's claiming that both of the P-80s sent to Italy were sent there to hunt down Ar234 recce flights but there aren't any official USAAF reports to back up those claims.

ack-ack

The P80s were attached to the 1st FG but their flying was done far from any combat.

This would apply to the 2 sent to the ETO as well. 
Title: Re: USA's jet fighter that wasn't built
Post by: MarineUS on May 18, 2012, 10:50:51 PM
Would be a different addition. Very sleek. :P
Title: Re: USA's jet fighter that wasn't built
Post by: Karnak on May 18, 2012, 11:48:29 PM
Two YP-80s were sent to the UK and two to Italy, but in no case were they intended for combat.  They were sent so that service pilots could give some feedback on them.  They did not fly anywhere near where they would encounter enemy aircraft and most certainly were never tasked with hunting any of them.  I am also highly skeptical of the claims about a pre-war US jet design given that the Whittle design was sent over by the UK during the war.

The only Allied jet to see combat was the Gloster Meteor Mk I, against V1s, and Meteor Mk III, against V1s and ground attack on the continent.
Title: Re: USA's jet fighter that wasn't built
Post by: oakranger on May 18, 2012, 11:59:34 PM
Really? No Duh. I said it wasn't built.

It has to have been in Combat. There is no number requirement. It was a squadron of 4 P-80's. I think chasing down the 234 to shoot it down qualifies as combat missions.

Two YP-80s were sent to the UK and two to Italy, but in no case were they intended for combat.  They were sent so that service pilots could give some feedback on them.  They did not fly anywhere near where they would encounter enemy aircraft and most certainly were never tasked with hunting any of them.  I am also highly skeptical of the claims about a pre-war US jet design given that the Whittle design was sent over by the UK during the war.

The only Allied jet to see combat was the Gloster Meteor Mk I, against V1s, and Meteor Mk III, against V1s and ground attack on the continent.

Last i read was they where about the fly their first mission hours after the German surrender.  Neverless, talking about the P-80 seeing combat in WWII is like beating a dead horse. 
Title: Re: USA's jet fighter that wasn't built
Post by: Karnak on May 19, 2012, 07:24:21 AM
Last i read was they where about the fly their first mission hours after the German surrender.  Neverless, talking about the P-80 seeing combat in WWII is like beating a dead horse. 
So basically this is a "I know the British Meteor gets roundly castigated as not having seen real combat because all it did was shoot down drones and do some ground attack late in the war, but this one is American so we should add it despite it having seen absolutely no combat because it is American!" type of thing?
Title: Re: USA's jet fighter that wasn't built
Post by: TwinBoom on May 19, 2012, 10:32:33 AM
deployed to a squad and flew 2 missions id say add it but perl the living hell out of it would be a nice way to spend all these perks i cant get rid off :cheers: :bolt:
Title: Re: USA's jet fighter that wasn't built
Post by: Rich52 on May 19, 2012, 01:12:08 PM
So basically this is a "I know the British Meteor gets roundly castigated as not having seen real combat because all it did was shoot down drones and do some ground attack late in the war, but this one is American so we should add it despite it having seen absolutely no combat because it is American!" type of thing?

I dont remember it ever getting "castigated". If anything I remember many wishing for it on both sides of the bloody pond..... wot?
Title: Re: USA's jet fighter that wasn't built
Post by: MarineUS on May 19, 2012, 01:26:59 PM
Karnak is just being a jerk. Instead of countering the argument he decides to troll around and do the 'MURICA thing and accuse instead of saying "Hey...this is why it shouldn't be in game."

Title: Re: USA's jet fighter that wasn't built
Post by: Karnak on May 19, 2012, 01:42:14 PM
No, in every Meteor thread there are always people saying that it doesn't qualify because those things weren't "real" combat.  Usually they are German aircraft fans, but sometimes they are just against more hair dryers being added.
Title: Re: USA's jet fighter that wasn't built
Post by: MarineUS on May 19, 2012, 02:13:15 PM
At this point in AH they could literally add flying hair dryers to the game and I wouldn't care.

If I can shoot it down, then good to go.
Title: Re: USA's jet fighter that wasn't built
Post by: Karnak on May 19, 2012, 02:19:40 PM
At this point in AH they could literally add flying hair dryers to the game and I wouldn't care.

If I can shoot it down, then good to go.
Perhaps an Evil Con Mission.....   :devil
Title: Re: USA's jet fighter that wasn't built
Post by: MarineUS on May 19, 2012, 02:24:44 PM
Sir! The temperature is rising in the next sector over. Nothing on radar yet.

"My God....they're doing an NOE hair dryer raid....SOUND THE ALARM!"
Title: Re: USA's jet fighter that wasn't built
Post by: Brooke on May 19, 2012, 04:36:58 PM
Wow, look at the conceptual design for the L-133.  I had no idea the US had such a non-conventional design in the works back then.
Title: Re: USA's jet fighter that wasn't built
Post by: Rich52 on May 19, 2012, 06:40:36 PM
No, in every Meteor thread there are always people saying that it doesn't qualify because those things weren't "real" combat.  Usually they are German aircraft fans, but sometimes they are just against more hair dryers being added.

Oh, before you sounded before like an ex-Empire/Naval power guy with a inferiority complex. From what I remember "most" support the Meteor in the game. Most of all we Yanks.
Title: Re: USA's jet fighter that wasn't built
Post by: surfinn on May 19, 2012, 08:08:02 PM
This link just sent a virus at my computer. Caution before viewing
Title: Re: USA's jet fighter that wasn't built
Post by: Karnak on May 19, 2012, 09:41:34 PM
This link just sent a virus at my computer. Caution before viewing
Youtube?

Seems likely you picked the virus up elsewhere.
Title: Re: USA's jet fighter that wasn't built
Post by: Megalodon on May 23, 2012, 12:12:34 PM
What I have found so far.
Most of the links don't work anymore on the first site.

http://forum.armyairforces.com/1st-FG-and-the-Lockheed-YP80A-Shooting-Star-m94873.aspx

http://warbirdsforum.com/showthread.php?t=990

http://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=71485




That 3rd link is great thanx for posting that... lots of info and good pics.

 :cheers:
Title: Re: USA's jet fighter that wasn't built
Post by: tunnelrat on June 05, 2012, 12:53:02 PM
No, in every Meteor thread there are always people saying that it doesn't qualify because those things weren't "real" combat.  Usually they are German aircraft fans, but sometimes they are just against more hair dryers being added.

The biggest frustration for the pilots of 616 Squadron was that they never clashed with the Me 262, or indeed with any German fighter aircraft. They came close towards the end of the war when a flight of Meteors encountered a force of Fw 190s, but they were forced to abandon their attack when other RAF fighters mistook them for Me 262s

So, had your boys not botched their run on those FW-190s, WE MIGHT HAVE METEORS IN GAME.  :bolt:

 :x :cheers: :salute

Title: Re: USA's jet fighter that wasn't built
Post by: mbailey on June 05, 2012, 05:23:10 PM
At this point in AH they could literally add flying hair dryers to the game and I wouldn't care.

If I can shoot it down, then good to go.

Wish granted     :D

(http://i888.photobucket.com/albums/ac82/mbailey166066/FlyingHairDryer_HonahLee.jpg)
Title: Re: USA's jet fighter that wasn't built
Post by: tunnelrat on June 08, 2012, 10:20:48 AM
Wish granted     :D

(http://i888.photobucket.com/albums/ac82/mbailey166066/FlyingHairDryer_HonahLee.jpg)

You win the thread.
Title: Re: USA's jet fighter that wasn't built
Post by: Butcher on June 08, 2012, 10:59:30 AM
The biggest frustration for the pilots of 616 Squadron was that they never clashed with the Me 262, or indeed with any German fighter aircraft. They came close towards the end of the war when a flight of Meteors encountered a force of Fw 190s, but they were forced to abandon their attack when other RAF fighters mistook them for Me 262s

So, had your boys not botched their run on those FW-190s, WE MIGHT HAVE METEORS IN GAME.  :bolt:

 :x :cheers: :salute

Meteors never ran into Fw-190, the meteor never had visual CONTACT of any hostile enemy fighters what so ever, why this exaggeration keeps getting told is beyond me.

Last thread was "4 meteors engaged a dozen Fw-190s" - 616 Squadron report clearly stated they were to avoid contact with ANY Enemy fighters period, again for the reason of having one of the meteor's fall into the Russian hands in case one does go down.

If there was any visual contact, they would of broken for home  as ordered to do so. I researched the entire 616 Squadron and did not see any mention of combat action against Fw-190s.

Title: Re: USA's jet fighter that wasn't built
Post by: tunnelrat on June 08, 2012, 12:52:34 PM
Meteors never ran into Fw-190, the meteor never had visual CONTACT of any hostile enemy fighters what so ever, why this exaggeration keeps getting told is beyond me.

Last thread was "4 meteors engaged a dozen Fw-190s" - 616 Squadron report clearly stated they were to avoid contact with ANY Enemy fighters period, again for the reason of having one of the meteor's fall into the Russian hands in case one does go down.

If there was any visual contact, they would of broken for home  as ordered to do so. I researched the entire 616 Squadron and did not see any mention of combat action against Fw-190s.

First off, gonna go ahead and go with source on this one... sorry Butch.

Rickard, J (13 February 2008), Gloster Meteor during the Second World War , http://www.historyofwar.org/articles/weapons_gloster_meteor_WWII.html

Second, they were forbidden to fly over German occupied territory, not forbidden to engage enemy fighters... that's just silly.

Title: Re: USA's jet fighter that wasn't built
Post by: Butcher on June 08, 2012, 01:25:09 PM
First off, gonna go ahead and go with source on this one... sorry Butch.

Rickard, J (13 February 2008), Gloster Meteor during the Second World War , http://www.historyofwar.org/articles/weapons_gloster_meteor_WWII.html

Second, they were forbidden to fly over German occupied territory, not forbidden to engage enemy fighters... that's just silly.

Problem with engaging enemy aircraft is air battles stretch for miles, if you forget history in the case of Lanoe Hawker VC - who fell far behind the German lines engaging von Richthofen, eventually got shot down trying to make a break for his own lines.

Sometimes you don't want history repeating itself, especially if you don't want your top secret aircraft to fall into nimble hands :)

Btw the source comes from "Gloster Meteor" Britain's Celebrated First-Generation Jet
by Aerofax - written by Phil Butler and Tony Buttler from England
Title: Re: USA's jet fighter that wasn't built
Post by: Lab Rat 3947 on June 10, 2012, 01:40:46 AM
mBailey, just curious, what is the armament on that hairdryer?  :old:
Title: Re: USA's jet fighter that wasn't built
Post by: icepac on June 10, 2012, 07:35:27 AM
Is this the same "butler" who wrote "spitfire"?
Title: Re: USA's jet fighter that wasn't built
Post by: Slate on June 13, 2012, 11:54:51 AM
mBailey, just curious, what is the armament on that hairdryer?  :old:

 200 rnds 20mm bobby pins.  :D

  (http://i407.photobucket.com/albums/pp159/ACGSurplus/pins.jpg)

  500  .50 cal 

   (http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x255/shayleene_123456789/ist1_47660_bobby_pins.jpg)
Title: Re: USA's jet fighter that wasn't built
Post by: Lab Rat 3947 on June 14, 2012, 02:07:25 AM
the 200 rnds of mm sounds good    :old: