Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: bustr on May 24, 2012, 05:28:45 PM
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The 506FG/457 FS P51D by cactus with the green tail has 5 rayed out angled lines on the top of each wing. What were those lines used for?
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Sight lines for dive bombing
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Rather rare to see on a P-51, they were quite common on other rides. Ju-87s had them, IL2s, and other planes as well. Not all were on the wings, some were on the nose cowling or the forward glass itself.
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How do you use them in this game?
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How do you use them in this game?
You can either use them for reference to a fixed/current dive angle, or as a reference to be used in achieving a desired dive angle. IE: you settup your dive and initiate it, achieve sighting in your target, look out your side to the horizon and using the skewed lines against it to make a acurate obseration of your dive angle, adjust your sight picture/piper placement on target as necessary through your recent observation, drop and go.
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Babs,
You just want me to go hey Piggies I'll take the VH down on our next Piggy raid. Then all of you will switch to another channel and place bets on if I auger or miss the FH. Then you'll all tune back just in time to hear me go Douh!!. :bhead After which you will personaly pass me my..... :ahand
Yeah it's a setup. Cactus put the word out to wait for one fool like me to ask. So you say again those numbers on the lines equal degrees of angle relative to the horizon. Hmmmmmmmmmmm. counting fingers....hhheheehe.....OK.. .VH next time....hmmmm.... Whats the pool on me up to Babs?
:joystick:
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Rather rare to see on a P-51, they were quite common on other rides. Ju-87s had them, IL2s, and other planes as well. Not all were on the wings, some were on the nose cowling or the forward glass itself.
They didn't show up on the Mustangs til late 44-45 when they were running out of targets and used more for ground attack. The Iwo 51s in particular had them. Lots of photos of end of the war in Europe 51s with them as well.
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you match the horizon over your wing to the angle of the line and that will give you a fixed visual reference for a dive angle yah?
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Ruah not youuuuuuu toooooo....so you got a long or short on the bet?
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you match the horizon over your wing to the angle of the line and that will give you a fixed visual reference for a dive angle yah?
I'm not actually sure they work so well in the game. More of a real-world thing, and what we see is more a finer detail (eye candy) than functional. Based on variations in screen resolution, field of view, zoom levels, and all that stuff, I would guess the angle could show up rather differently depending on how you look at your monitor.
Just a thought...
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I'm not actually sure they work so well in the game. More of a real-world thing, and what we see is more a finer detail (eye candy) than functional. Based on variations in screen resolution, field of view, zoom levels, and all that stuff, I would guess the angle could show up rather differently depending on how you look at your monitor.
Just a thought...
Of course your using krusty math...........
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Shhhhh...
I was going to take 100% fuel and 2 - 1000lb to make sure I augered when they filmed it for the bet. I was going to wiggle around alot like I was trying to line it up.....
Everyone's been getting so nice in here lately. I'm starting to feel like I should just fly slow and level through furballs in a 262 and type the Mr. Rogers song lyrics on ch200....... :old:
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Although it is remotely possible that some P-47s and Mustangs in 8th or 9th AF may have had the dive bomb reference lines applied I have never seen one in any photo, nor post war for such 9th AF assigned P-51 Groups (354, 355, 357), nor even 354FG when they switched briefly to P-47s late Nov -Feb 45.
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Although it is remotely possible that some P-47s and Mustangs in 8th or 9th AF may have had the dive bomb reference lines applied I have never seen one in any photo, nor post war for such 9th AF assigned P-51 Groups (354, 355, 357), nor even 354FG when they switched briefly to P-47s late Nov -Feb 45.
I'll post a couple when I get the chance. Seen on a 4th bird and 364th when I was looking recently
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Although it is remotely possible that some P-47s and Mustangs in 8th or 9th AF may have had the dive bomb reference lines applied I have never seen one in any photo, nor post war for such 9th AF assigned P-51 Groups (354, 355, 357), nor even 354FG when they switched briefly to P-47s late Nov -Feb 45.
McKennon's Ridge Runner, April 17, 1945 when he crash landed in France. I remember it because it surprised me when I saw the photo. No doubt they are there though and before wars end in Europe. Not suggesting it was common, but not unheard of :)
(http://i152.photobucket.com/albums/s199/guppy35/DGS%20Scenario%20bits/RRunner.jpg)
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You guys sure those lines are for dive bombing reference? I'm not seeing how they could help. Markings on side of canopy would line up with horizon for reference, those marks on top of wing won't work in that manner.
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The marks were 10 degrees separation from 10 to 50 degrees and I believe they were used for the rockets.
I posted about this before but I can't remember the plane :old:
I think it was a pac 51 that I found looking up 29's.
Oh Yes I remember now ... it was while arguing with Tiff about the tail strips of the 457th :)
(http://i836.photobucket.com/albums/zz281/Megalodon2/51wingmarks.jpg)
458th birds
Capt John Findley 462nd "Pterodactyl"
(http://i836.photobucket.com/albums/zz281/Megalodon2/51wingmarks2.jpg)
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Must have been bombs too as McKennons bird and this one don't have rocket rails.
I knew I'd seen a 364th bird with the stripes too. Must be right after the war ended as it has the call letters under the left wing.
(http://www.littlefriends.co.uk/gallery/364g/n2-v.jpg)
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OK, how do they use them while dive bomb?
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I don't see how they could have been used for bombs or rockets. They seem to use the wing 3/9 line as 0 degrees.
So when do you need to know that something is X degrees ahead of your wing line?
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I recommend flying a mustang in AH, as it's the plane we seem to be talking about here in example, level and just above ground level, then at 2k, then at 5k then at 10, 15 and even 20k just to make the point. The higher the altitude you fly above the ground/earth, the lower said horizon of said ground/earthenly object will apear, relative to you. Then, I want you to particularly note about where the horizon sits, from your visual perspective, to your wing at ~7k. Nose down to 30-degrees AoA, wings level, and look out to your horizon. Is it parallel to where a guage would be on yor canopy, or if you had lines drawn on the same wing your now pretending to see clearly through to see the edge of the horizon?
Proper terminoligy would be glide bombing I believe, as with dive bombing you're directly or nearly directly above the target.
And the lines, on canopy or wing would rarely "line-up" unless you had pre-calculated precisely and taken into account your height/line of sight (which even for the most consistent of pilots would change rather drasticly depending if you had just or are about to repack your parachute, mission clothing, etc..) and also consistently came in at the same altitude to your target every time, what you're doing is observing, at an offset, a paralleling line to the horizon.
Also, keep in mind, these were aids for experienced/trained/practiced pilots, not novices simpley thrown into the pit (which is arguabley most of us AH players). Achieving a 0, 45 or 90 degree angle, or acuratley assesing you were at such a rudimentry angle, isn't nearly as hard as 30, 50, 60 or 25 that these guys were trying to achieve or at least acuratley observe to then compensate. (in particular, shallow angled dives).
I must honestly admit though (unless you're the jolly green giant, sitting ontop a fresh packed chute, crusing at a mystical 120k when initiating your shallow-angle dive), the the first few imediate lines, closest to the fuselage, I can only imagine them as being useful if you were comming in a steep-banked dive and had a wing high against the horizon or are more likely purely asthestic.
Also, don't forget we have the fortune in AH of always having clear skies and unlimited visibility. Finding the horizon, clearly, is easy and can be seen out to a far distance. Add some cloud/weather though in AH, and you fly/maneuver more off instruments than visual references/ques.
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I recommend flying a mustang in AH, as it's the plane we seem to be talking about here in example, level and just above ground level, then at 2k, then at 5k then at 10, 15 and even 20k just to make the point. The higher the altitude you fly above the ground/earth, the lower said horizon of said ground/earthenly object will apear, relative to you. Then, I want you to particularly note about where the horizon sits, from your visual perspective, to your wing at ~7k. Nose down to 30-degrees AoA, wings level, and look out to your horizon. Is it parallel to where a guage would be on yor canopy, or if you had lines drawn on the same wing your now pretending to see clearly through to see the edge of the horizon?
Proper terminoligy would be glide bombing I believe, as with dive bombing you're directly or nearly directly above the target.
And the lines, on canopy or wing would rarely "line-up" unless you had pre-calculated precisely and taken into account your height/line of sight (which even for the most consistent of pilots would change rather drasticly depending if you had just or are about to repack your parachute, mission clothing, etc..) and also consistently came in at the same altitude to your target every time, what you're doing is observing, at an offset, a paralleling line to the horizon.
Also, keep in mind, these were aids for experienced/trained/practiced pilots, not novices simpley thrown into the pit (which is arguabley most of us AH players). Achieving a 0, 45 or 90 degree angle, or acuratley assesing you were at such a rudimentry angle, isn't nearly as hard as 30, 50, 60 or 25 that these guys were trying to achieve or at least acuratley observe to then compensate. (in particular, shallow angled dives).
I must honestly admit though (unless you're the jolly green giant, sitting ontop a fresh packed chute, crusing at a mystical 120k when initiating your shallow-angle dive), the the first few imediate lines, closest to the fuselage, I can only imagine them as being useful if you were comming in a steep-banked dive and had a wing high against the horizon or are more likely purely asthestic.
Also, don't forget we have the fortune in AH of always having clear skies and unlimited visibility. Finding the horizon, clearly, is easy and can be seen out to a far distance. Add some cloud/weather though in AH, and you fly/maneuver more off instruments than visual references/ques.
Your explanation is unlikely.
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Every one of you guys should have enough experience to figure out how to use these stripes without reference to the horizon. Then again none of you should need them in AH.
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Must have been bombs too as McKennons bird and this one don't have rocket rails.
I knew I'd seen a 364th bird with the stripes too. Must be right after the war ended as it has the call letters under the left wing.
(http://www.littlefriends.co.uk/gallery/364g/n2-v.jpg)
Good catch but interesting that neither the 355th nor the 357th, when re-assigned to TAC after VE Day, received the 'stripes'. Wonder if 364th deployed to States and possibly stage for PTO?
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The only use I can imagine for those lines is formation flying. You can see the alignment in the flight pictures.
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Your explanation is unlikely.
In regards to my assumption in reference to the lines imediatley closest to the fuesalage and their use in a banked dive (I can see no practical use for), or in regards to the fact of the outer-most lines being angle of dive indicators? :D
I know the navy use to have them on the vetical stab of some aircraft, somewhere the pilot really couldn't see or make any use of them, but they were purely for the LSO to decipher with better accuracy the planes angle of attack when landing.
Da!@ this info took forever to find.
Yes, confirmed, the term we're looking for here ladies is "Angle of Attack" indicators.
Robert Grant's book on the 506th, which served in the PTO with mustangs, supposedly has a very good written desciption on them within it somewhere. I'd nail it more closely for you, but I'm a little busy atm (and having a looooong day).
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Although it is remotely possible that some P-47s and Mustangs in 8th or 9th AF may have had the dive bomb reference lines applied I have never seen one in any photo, nor post war for such 9th AF assigned P-51 Groups (354, 355, 357), nor even 354FG when they switched briefly to P-47s late Nov -Feb 45.
FYI - A 51 skin with these lines currently exists in AH.
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FYI - A 51 skin with these lines currently exists in AH.
Babbleon's going to use that one to make a dive bombing film showing us how to use the 10 and 20 degree lines for dive bombing. :D
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The 506FG/457 FS P51D by cactus with the green tail has 5 rayed out angled lines on the top of each wing. What were those lines used for?
OK, guys, here is the "skinny" on the angled lines on the 51's. #1- all 51's in 506Th fighter group had the stripes, and their purpose was to aid in dive bombing. #2- they were useless. #3- The lines were never mentioned in any pilot briefs. The 506Th was based on Iwo Jima in 1945 and was primarily a B-29 escort group, but did fly some ground attack missions. The pilot who actually flew these 51's in the 506Th is Ed Linfante. For further info, link is provided below.
http://www.506thfightergroup.org
You will find serveral links on home page of different pilots who flew for the 506th, just click on ones name and review what was said about the lines.
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Babbleon's going to use that one to make a dive bombing film showing us how to use the 10 and 20 degree lines for dive bombing. :D
I can try, but it's still going be mostly textbook/lecture and less visual demonstration (see Earl's responce imediatley above, they sucked).
If you think they're instruments or guages, and thus an acurate means of measuring, please (re)read my first post in this thread.
Or, do you just have a problem with being wrong?
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Personaly I just fly the skin for the neat green tail and shiny skin. I could never figure out what the lines were for. Guess they were really there to give the guys something to talk about during those long over water flights......
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I can try, but it's still going be mostly textbook/lecture and less visual demonstration (see Earl's responce imediatley above, they sucked).
If you think they're instruments or guages, and thus an acurate means of measuring, please (re)read my first post in this thread.
Or, do you just have a problem with being wrong?
What am I wrong about? Quote what I said that was incorrect. :lol
Nobody, including yourself, has explained how the stripes could be used for dive bombing. I doubt that you could make a film showing their proper usage unless you understand what it was. If you understand it then you can demonstrate it and explain it. If you can't explain it or demonstrate it then you don't understand it.
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Listening/reading helps, your responce has again proven that - along with your continueing derogatory/attacking tone and interest to continue off-topic in a non-O'club forum..... Anyways, keep mixing up glide/dive bombing as I tried first explaining in the first post I keep requesting you to re-read, and even chuck yeager wouldn't be able to help me explain it to you with a powerpoint presentation and sock puppets.
I did explain it, you expressed an opinion it was unlikely, without anything of reemblance to substantiation/explanantion/citation.... per your own words
If you understand it then you can demonstrate it and explain it. If you can't explain it or demonstrate it then you don't understand it.
How is my explanation unlikely, Mr. AH Trainer, sir? The ball is still in your court.
If you want any more of my generosity with knowledge or citation (I was the first I believe in this entire thread, what have you contributed beyond speculation?) or in-game demonstration, I'd be glad to but I'm honestly afraid it would be a waste of both our times (as you wont even take two player's written words with provided documentation that these AoA indicators sucked, even in good practice with real pilots in real P-51Ds in real WWII wartime conditions/environments).
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So you're saying those lines are AOA indicators for glide bombing?
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Thanks to all your guys for your comments and questions with regard to Angled dive angle lines on the top surface of the P-47, P-51, and P-38.
These were very useful to the pilot. However, to use them one needs to understand how they work IN CONJUNCTION WITH YOUR AIMING SIGHT when using bomb / rocket settings mechanism in the aircraft.
Check out the AF Manual 335-25. These were used and can still be used. Although with the earlier fighter aircraft such as WW!, WW2, and Korean Conflict.
Sincerely,
prior service pilot/ contract pilot S/C America
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The lines are for angle of attack after flying level with the target just off the wing. The shallower the angle mark, the lower alt you have to be flying. Your entry speed at the lowest alt 2000ft flying level has to be around 250, and decreases up to 11,000ft to 210 for a 110 degree angle of attack.
The method is to fly level with the target in front of the wing as you look out and down at the target. When the target begins to pass under the wing and just touches the end of the angel line of which you want to dive at the target for your attack. You execute a shallow turn down and into the target to begin your run.
All of this is predicated on you knowing a chart of factors for alt and speed, which your armorer has set your gunsight accordingly for. And you have spent sufficient time on a gunnery and bombing range practicing.
Some of you may have noticed IL2 skins show three elliptical line patterns on the cowling in front of the pilot. The same principle applies except the idea is to fly level between 100, 200 or 300 meters above the target which corresponds to the lines. When the target just touched the line end down the cowling side, release your bombs. Probably good for vehicle convoys and troop lines.
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When you say "angle of attack" what does that mean? I'm assuming it doesn't refer to the usual definition, i.e. the angle the air meets the wing relative to the chord line..
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USAF term from 1950's gunnery manual where they finally explain how to use the lines on the wing. Seems the definition is fluid depending on the subject. Those numbers on the wing represent the angle of the attack the P51 or P47 would assume after dipping wing to the target and flying at it for a guns\bomb\rocket run. Aint military lingo literally confusing.....
The wing lines are used due to not enough room for the A1 bomb\rocket automatic aiming system in the P51 or P47 cockpit. In WW2 they were developed as a systematic way to insure repeatable outcomes.
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When you say "angle of attack" what does that mean? I'm assuming it doesn't refer to the usual definition, i.e. the angle the air meets the wing relative to the chord line..
I have the manual bustr is referring to right here. I'm pretty sure I can reproduce this type of attack using those lines. The thing is after so much time in AH I don't believe that I need the lines.
Oh, and "angle of attack" in this case?
It is not the actual aerodynamic angle of attack, but is the angular measurement between the flight path of the aircraft at a certain speed and some reference line on the aircraft, that is, the level lugs line, the fuselage reference line, or the zero thrust line.
The guns are oriented to any one of these reference lines so that they will be at the proper or desired setting relative to the actual flight path of the aircraft.
The reason AH pilots should be able to do this after some experience is that experience is easier to come by, and you eventually learn or intuit the differences in angle-of-attack under the various g loadings, which differ from the 1-g condition.
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The only use I can imagine for those lines is formation flying. You can see the alignment in the flight pictures.
The lines had nothing to do with formation flying. The alignment you can see is from well flown formation by the pilots.
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The cactus skin in AH2 which is a PTO skin has 10, 20, 30, 40, 50 degree angles. That's for work 5000ft down to 1000ft entry point. Did the P51D even get used for ground work in the PTO other than strafing?
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The Philippines had at least three squadrons of fighter-bombers equipped with P-51s, but the only accounts I have ever read were the recon squadrons out of Mindoro. I have seen evidence of a presence on Panay Island, Leyte, Luzon, . . . but never read of accounts from there. During Vietnam the Air Force and Navy both scoured the islands for bomb inventories, and they found a great deal in open storage. The event that led to the disaster involving Sen. McCain is a result of those storage methods.
So they had iron bombs, but what they used them for I would love to know.
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The lines had nothing to do with formation flying. The alignment you can see is from well flown formation by the pilots.
I get that, it was the only thing I can see that lines up with them unless you roll 180 which is what Bustr refer's to here. And apparently they use "angle of attack" to mean dive angle.
USAF term from 1950's gunnery manual where they finally explain how to use the lines on the wing. Seems the definition is fluid depending on the subject. Those numbers on the wing represent the angle of the attack the P51 or P47 would assume after dipping wing to the target and flying at it for a guns\bomb\rocket run. Aint military lingo literally confusing.....
The wing lines are used due to not enough room for the A1 bomb\rocket automatic aiming system in the P51 or P47 cockpit. In WW2 they were developed as a systematic way to insure repeatable outcomes.
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I just did this offline. And it worked the first time without a hitch, or practice.
What you do is line up your approach so that your target is on the outermost marker, or 10 degree point. Then you start a standard rate turn into the target which you gradually increase the angle of bank while decreasing throttle, until the target is on your nose. The final step is to align the target with the lower marks indicated on the standard attack sight and to release at a proper altitude (calculated from the numbers given in the manual for minimum altitude recoveries, etc.).
I began from 4,500ft. above the target on the first attack, and 3,800 on the second attack. Both bombs hit within the kill radius of the bomb for the Tiger II tank.
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The number of the angled line is your entry alt and +- angle of attack as you dive in.
10 - 1000ft
20
30
40
50 - 5000ft
For 10 your level speed will be about 250 level.
On up to 50 your speed would be slightly slower in steps to about 230-220.
Place the target left or right in front of your wing.
Fly level looking out on the wing until the appropriate line end touches the target.
Then begin a turn and dive towards your target holding a steady AoA at the target.
Use your reticle as appropriate for guns\bombs\rockets.
For a 70-110 degree attack, 7000 to 11,000ft. At 220-200 fly the target about up into the junction you can see looking down at your wing root. Our PTO P51D skin numbers by Korea were changed to 20, 35, 50, 70, 110 as a result of USAF extensive testing.
The USAF after WW2 took all of the popular methods that pilots developed in WW2 for entering into glide bombing\dive bombing\rocket\strafing and tested them. This method gave the most consistent and reproducible outcomes for high hit rates on targets.
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Yes, whereas it does work in AH the only practical use is at lower altitudes. The way the game works you can use 70 degrees from 5k all the way up to 12k. You may be able to go higher but it's not as reliable. At the lower altitudes you want shallower angles, which is really the thing that you can take away from this. You cannot come in as steep, obviously, because you would crater just like novices do when dive-bombing. And of course, when coming down from higher altitudes the Mustang builds up a lot of speed, so you must be good at regulating your speed and never forget to pull out at a survivable altitude.
Have you tried this in AH3 yet? I'm starting to appreciate the changes hitech has made.
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If I understand the bit quoted from the manual the wing markings are used to set an IP on the fly with a known safe dive angle for a given low altitude. Makes sense since one of the keys to accurate dive bombing is the point initiating the dive setting the correct dive angle to the target.
I'll have to try the wing root trick.
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This is the DSR video that was requested of me. The chatter is a bit too complete and I was so far behind I did not go ahead and create the infographics and a few other animations I had originally planned.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=svUspPyJ5R8
Jump to "How to turn on DSR"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=svUspPyJ5R8#t=406
Changing resolution and texture size in Aces High 3
https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=svUspPyJ5R8#t=571
The Mustang taking off for the attack
https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=svUspPyJ5R8#t=792
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Last night I made a 50 degree run on the last 5 buildings in the center of a town. Using the N9 with rocket aid structures, I pickled off the two 1000lb with the appropriate mark. On cue moments after I passed over the target, 5 buildings destroyed showed up in my text buffer. Then pulling around I executed a 20 degree with rockets deacking as I passed over the field.
I think the Koren War era 110 degree starting from 200IAS really puts you into a semi split-s as your entry to slow you down before performing a vertical dive bombing attack from 11,000ft. If I remember from reading the P51D\K hand book from 1945, 10,000 was the minimum alt to enter a vertical bomb attack for a safe pull out.