Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: Oldman731 on June 10, 2012, 12:12:24 AM
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I maintain that this is the best fight - of real-world, WWII, Axis v Allied planes - that AH has to offer.
Had some really excellent fights against Raphael in Dueling Arena very late tonite. That man knows how to handle an Emil.
- oldman
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It is a challenging and intense fight
<Salute> Oldman, thank you for the amazing fights!
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I'd contend that with the 109G2 vs the P-51B.
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I'd contend that with the 109G2 vs the P-51B.
:rofl Erhmmm no.
G2 kicks the butt out of any P51.
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Glad you had so much fun with that nice historical matchup :aok
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When I first started playing AH a few years back I did a lot of EW flying in the ME109E-4. I flew it in DA the other day and it seems like it don't fly like it use to or maybe I got use to the LW rides. The Emil in my opinion is the prettiest of the 109s.
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I've come to the conclusion that those early war birds are hazardous to the user's health. At least they really keep you on your toes.
:rock
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spit14 vs 109k4 is a good matchup too
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spit 5 vs 109 F or G2s are a also a fun matchup.
And 51B vs G2 is only fun if the pony decides to stay.
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spit14 vs k4 is awesome.
spit5 vs 109f, spit should win in 4 turns
ponyB vs g2, g2 wins in 3 turns unless the pony is running away
whats also good fun, ki84 vs f6f, ki has a slight advantage tho
any D-jug or P38 J/L vs 190a5, i luved theese against Irish
g14 vs la5 is pretty good too, lala turns a bit tighter but the Gustav handles just a bit smoother
mossie vs 110G, Titan could tell a story about this... haha
Damn it, theese topics make me wanna fly again :bhead
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FM-2 vs. Ki-84 always yields a good fight unless the Ki runs away
109K-4 vs. P-51D always good, always seems to start at 10-15k in the mains
F4U-1A vs. Ki-84
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FM-2 vs. Ki-84 always yields a good fight unless the Ki runs away
109K-4 vs. P-51D always good, always seems to start at 10-15k in the mains
F4U-1A vs. Ki-84
I don't fly Ki84 or FM2 a whole lot so I have nothing to say against that.
K4 vs 51D and the K4 should win everytime. Outturns, out climbs, and handles low speeds much much much better. Only thing the K4 can't do is catch the Pony in a dive.
Ki-84 vs -1A, should be interesting. Although I think if the fight got slow enough (below 100mph), then the Ki84 wins.
110 vs Mossie, whoever gets a snap shot first wins haha. Stats says Mossie should win, but stats doesn't account into snap rolls. I'll take a 110 over the Mossie anyday.
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I'd contend that with the 109G2 vs the P-51B.
No.
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meteor vs 262!!!
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Dueling vs the MA.... Duels are fought at speeds and altitudes than benefit the better turning and/or climbing fighter. In the MA, speed is a much bigger factor. In the MA, E management is a more significant factor. Thus, the P-51s compete well there.
My favorite dueling ride is the 109F-4. Good vertical performance, excellent flaps and outstanding agility.
Match-ups I like?
109G-2 vs La-7/La-5
109F-4 vs Ki-84
F4U-4 vs Spit16
Tempest vs Spit14
P-47D-11 vs 190A-5
109F-4 vs Spit8/Spit9/Spit16
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meteor vs 262!!!
You are evil, dude. Heck, i would accept the challenge.
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spit5 vs 109f, spit should win in 4 turns
ponyB vs g2, g2 wins in 3 turns unless the pony is running away
I've had these match ups on a reletively regular basis and agree.
I always lose to the spit5 in around 4or5 turns, just ask Zodiac. :aok
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debrody,
The problem with the Mossie and Bf110G, or any other heavily armed fighter, is that the fights end much too quickly to usually reach that really good fight stage.
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After flying the Yak-9 in the FSO and main arena a few times, I've been flying it die hard in the main arena where surprisingly it outclasses most planes.
P51s it can catch or stay with even on the deck, given decent alt the Yak is quite a handful, I will say the gun package is a serious problem as you can't take deflection shots and expect to take a wing off.
However my aim is above average and given the few fights I had, its quite nice for 23 eny compared to a C.205 or 109g6 which it totally out classes.
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The Ki-84 vs any blue (excluding -4) plane co-alt / co E has the advantage. I'm above a 1a or FM2 in three merges, making them fight an E fighter uphill, which is always bad. In a 1a, I want that 84 get come down and turn with me in a stall fight, I don't fear it in that realm. As I always said, I consider the 84 the Japanese version of the K4, and fight it accordingly. Now 84 vs -4 co alt / co E is a great fight, the power to weights are much closer for the verticle fight.
my good match ups
84 vs -4
N1k vs 1a
109G2 vs LA-5
Spit XIV vs K4 (at alt, was a great fight in last scenario)
:salute
BigRat
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:rofl Erhmmm no.
G2 kicks the butt out of any P51.
Ok luftwhiner my pony your 109 DA lets do this.
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I hope you guys realize this is a game. Cause saying a 51 is garbage well... let the flaming begin.
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:P
yeah Spit 5's are my nightmare, I die quickly and helpless :cry
fighting with the other spit's (mainly the spit8) is fun as hell too!
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51b vs. yakT
Most epic fight
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Ok luftwhiner my pony your 109 DA lets do this.
Teehee, okey dokey. In game name? I'll be on the look out. :aok
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If the fight doesn't have to be historical, I'd say one of the most epic fights is C205 vs 109G2.
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The Ki-84 vs any blue (excluding -4) plane co-alt / co E has the advantage.
I'm not entirely sure I am flying this aeroplane correctly :old:
Teehee, okey dokey. In game name? I'll be on the look out. :aok
WING47 is an excellent P-51D stick :salute
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SBD is good in dogfight too. :aok
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If the fight doesn't have to be historical, I'd say one of the most epic fights is C205 vs 109G2.
uhhh how is that epic? 109g2 outclasses it entirely.
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P38G vs anything that stays around to play :)
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Hurri Mk I vs A6M2 Good times :aok
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Ok luftwhiner my pony your 109 DA lets do this.
Thats the spirit! :aok however... honestly, Sir, the 109s can easily outfly the pony in 1v1, with nearly equal pilots.
btw:
Jak9U vs D-stang, havent tryed it, might be fun
Brewster vs a6m3, awesome
109F or G2 vs F6F
Ki-61 vs G6, fun turnfight
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SBD is good in dogfight too. :aok
I once killed an F4U in a SBD in a fair fight 1 v 1. you really can't underestimate anything in this game
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Thats the spirit! :aok however... honestly, Sir, the 109s can easily outfly the pony in 1v1, with nearly equal pilots.
btw:
Jak9U vs D-stang, havent tryed it, might be fun
Brewster vs a6m3, awesome
109F or G2 vs F6F
Ki-61 vs G6, fun turnfight
I think we did Yak vs 51D didn't we? Or it was me and RedBull. I think Pony won because neither of us flew Yaks and the thing stalls weird.
And I know me and you did Ki-61 vs G6, although it was an MA fight and I had much higher alt. Still came down and we had a blast turn fighting. I barely came out alive with oil and flaps missing. We'll need to do it again when you come back. ;)
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I still think that a p51 can win every match if properly flew.
I had some proof of this vs some f4u-x.
109 can be an easy kill if you mix turn-fight and BZ in a proper way - i'm checking this mode.
The problem is how does the p51 need to be flown properly?
:salute
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I still think that a p51 can win every match if properly flew.
I had some proof of this vs some f4u-x.
109 can be an easy kill if you mix turn-fight and BZ in a proper way - i'm checking this mode.
The problem is how does the p51 need to be flown properly?
:salute
P51 is going to get owned by just about every 109 except the Emil. And I'll prove it when I duel Wing47.
Hell, I had a fight against Strah's Emil in a P51D and barely won in a turn fight (yea I turn fight in a P51). P51 just cannot handle speeds below 100mph without stalling into the ground.
I'll be happy to be proven wrong if wing47 can kill me in a 109.
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the only option for the P51 against a 109 is try a 300mph+ reversal, and then it is still very risky. Any loss of speed will result in a death :P
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Ok luftwhiner my pony your 109 DA lets do this.
You do know you can only "Extend" or in another words run from him for so long? Don't bother using field ack either.
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I still think that a p51 can win every match if properly flew.
I had some proof of this vs some f4u-x.
109 can be an easy kill if you mix turn-fight and BZ in a proper way - i'm checking this mode.
The problem is how does the p51 need to be flown properly?
:salute
The problem is that if the enemy aircraft is flown properly too it becomes a contest between aircraft capabilities, and the Bf109K-4 simply out performs the P-51D.
In your statements it seems you are saying "If the P-51D has a much better pilot the P-51D will win." which is kind of obvious.
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P-51D's are my favorite targets when flying the K-4. They have nothing to use against the K-4 and even their speed advantage is marginal.
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I'm not entirely sure I am flying this aeroplane correctly :old:
WING47 is an excellent P-51D stick :salute
I think maybe you misunderstand what Bigrat said or what he meant,I could be mistaken myself but I bet what Bigrat meant was that the Ki84 has the advantage against any blue plane except the -4 hog.
I know he's chased me around for countless hours in his hog while I flew an assorted amount of planes and when I was in the Ki84 all I had to do was make him fight me nose up and eventually his hog would do what comes natural and go nose down to the ground... :devil
So I'm pretty sure he meant that the KI has the advantage.
:salute
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I think maybe you misunderstand what Bigrat said or what he meant,I could be mistaken myself but I bet what Bigrat meant was that the Ki84 has the advantage against any blue plane except the -4 hog.
I know he's chased me around for countless hours in his hog while I flew an assorted amount of planes and when I was in the Ki84 all I had to do was make him fight me nose up and eventually his hog would do what comes natural and go nose down to the ground... :devil
So I'm pretty sure he meant that the KI has the advantage.
:salute
Of course, using the P-51's advantage just gets you labeled a "pick and run dweeb" :rolleyes:
Don't get me wrong, I am not even that big a fan of the P-51, I prefer Luftwaffe birds myself when it comes to fighters, it's just always comical to me to see all these armchair heroes get so absurdly derisive in their thinly veiled tantrums over being outrun by a Mustang.
It'd be as absurd as telling K4 pilots that using their 30mm is lame.
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P51 is going to get owned by just about every 109 except the Emil.
lol that is exactly what I like them to think when flying in the MA but after one pass they always go home.
Maybe the difference is that with the other 109's you can actually follow them as they go home or to their buddies, can't do that in the Emil.
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Of course, using the P-51's advantage just gets you labeled a "pick and run dweeb" :rolleyes:
Don't get me wrong, I am not even that big a fan of the P-51, I prefer Luftwaffe birds myself when it comes to fighters, it's just always comical to me to see all these armchair heroes get so absurdly derisive in their thinly veiled tantrums over being outrun by a Mustang.
It'd be as absurd as telling K4 pilots that using their 30mm is lame.
The stereotype from the 51 is because it gets used as a Pick and Run bird 99% of its sorties, typically coming in at 15k over a fight and when any advantage is lost or even a CO-alt merge it runs. Sure 1% of the pilots can actually dog fight in the 51, however how many sorties do you have to fly to find even one pilot willing to dog fight?
Prime example of this was yesterday, was flying around in a Yak-9 and had engaged 4 different P51s, each time when any advantage was lost, shoot to the deck and run, even when I am vastly out numbered - which is great that people are so easily willing to run since it broke it down from 1vs4 to 1vs3, another 51 made a mistake and I took his wing off, other two 51s decided to disengage only because a few friendlies showed up.
It only gets it stereotype because of the massive amount of sorties flown from it, if other birds were flown the same way it would get noticed far more often. You don't typically see a Spit8 or Spit16 pick or run from every fight, usually its looking for a fight - even if its a Trainer at least its trying to dogfight.
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Of course, using the P-51's advantage just gets you labeled a "pick and run dweeb" :rolleyes
A "pick and run" is just a bad BnZ. The P-51D can be used for much more aggressive BnZ that does not involve running.
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I am with the expetin here: other then the dive and run sorts, if the 51 stays to fight it is gonna die. Of course there are some fantastic 51 pilots out there who can do impressive things in it, but once the e state is equalized, it is just a matter of taking the fight to the vert and it is a win.
I have meet you in G2s and KI84s Lulu, and you have consistently stayed very conservative in your attacks with more alt an e - I will argue that you could fly an A8 like that and win and that every time any 51 gets even close in E with anything less then 3K alt, it is game over unless the 109 makes a mistake. So the pick and run play style makes sense really. I will say though that the 51 can scissor really well, but it is really rare to see them scissor.
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A "pick and run" is just a bad BnZ. The P-51D can be used for much more aggressive BnZ that does not involve running.
:aok
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A "pick and run" is just a bad BnZ. The P-51D can be used for much more aggressive BnZ that does not involve running.
So you guys are talking about the 51's that come screaming in with more smash than Hulk, spray, usually miss, and just keep on going (assuming they don't crash?)
Okay, yeah, I have seen those =)
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Tunnelrat,
Basically if the extend part of the BnZ attack is long enough for the defending aircraft to regain whatever E it lost in avoiding the attack then the BnZ is a poor BnZ. The attack passes have to come fast enough to deny the defender the time to rebuild the E he lost from the prior dodge maneuver.
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As you know, i fly spits mostly, but in german planes i can be more dangerous - so dangerous that i think also that a p51 is outclassed by them - i speak about fighters.
I fly p51 too and i still fly it bad but I have a couples of fights that bring me to think that
the p51 is the most danegrous planes in AH. As I said, i will check this thing.
From a certain point of view, it easy to win a fight. It is just a matter of bringing other planes
to fly in conditions that are better for your planes.
The point is that peraphs in a p51 (or a p48) you can achieve this conditions more rapidly then in the other planes, except when you fail your first merge.
:salute
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If I seen more aggressive 51s that show any kind of ACM i'd be flying the Tempest more, however if you pull one move and they hit the deck and run its not worth worrying about for now.
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uhhh how is that epic? 109g2 outclasses it entirely.
Not entirely. IIRC, the C2 out accelerates it a bit, and preforms better in the verticle.
And thats if I'm in the C2; I love fighting uphill.
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At no point does the C.205 out accelerate the Bf109G-2.
Climb = Acceleration:
(http://www.hitechcreations.com/components/com_ahplaneperf/genchart.php?p1=14&p2=10&pw=1>ype=2&gui=localhost&itemsel=GameData)
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Either way, I still like the C2 better in the verticle. Just FEELs a tad more stable to me, even if really its the same. And it might or might not be, but thats entirely irrelvent.
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http://www.gonzoville.com/ahcharts/index.php?p1=109g2&p2=c205
Charts #5 & #8
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Really close for engine power-related preformance, I just like the feel of the C2 better.
And in either case, its a closer match than a lot of other fights suggested.
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A nice close match for the 109G-2 would be a La5FN, with the La being a just tad better in most categories below 5k.
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The C205 is closer to the 190A5 or the Jak9U than to the G2, also the Gustav or even the Anton are far more agile in post-stall situations.
Thats only my experience tho.
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I think maybe you misunderstand what Bigrat said or what he meant,I could be mistaken myself but I bet what Bigrat meant was that the Ki84 has the advantage against any blue plane except the -4 hog.
I know he's chased me around for countless hours in his hog while I flew an assorted amount of planes and when I was in the Ki84 all I had to do was make him fight me nose up and eventually his hog would do what comes natural and go nose down to the ground... :devil
So I'm pretty sure he meant that the KI has the advantage.
:salute
I did kinda word that funny, Morf has my meaning correct :aok
:salute
BigRat
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My experience with the 109G-2 and C.205 tells me that the C.205 is doomed in a Co-E, Co-alt fight with equal pilots.... Assume no one makes a major gaff. Speeds will deteriorate until flaps come out. Then, the 205 is completely outclassed.
Same problem plagues the Ki-61. Good until slow, then a wallowing whale....
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At no point does the C.205 out accelerate the Bf109G-2.
Climb = Acceleration:
(http://www.hitechcreations.com/components/com_ahplaneperf/genchart.php?p1=14&p2=10&pw=1>ype=2&gui=localhost&itemsel=GameData)
How does climb = acceleration? (Assuming you feel like playing Professor Aerodynamic Theory for me today hahaha)
I thought acceleration was how fast an aircraft gained speed in level flight... I guess I am just stuck thinking in ground automobile terms?
Sorry if this is a dumb question!
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My experience with the 109G-2 and C.205 tells me that the C.205 is doomed in a Co-E, Co-alt fight with equal pilots.... Assume no one makes a major gaff. Speeds will deteriorate until flaps come out. Then, the 205 is completely outclassed.
Same problem plagues the Ki-61. Good until slow, then a wallowing whale....
The few fights I had in the DA and flying the 205 for a few tours and this tells me the same thing I hated most about it, once you get the 205 slow its pretty much doomed, there is no perfect move to get someone off your 6, if they dumped E the 205 is simply dead.
However flown correctly, and climbing to around 15k it handles quite well with a pretty nice top speed, however getting locked up in a turn fight is a big no no, it simply doesn't "Excell" in any one area to be a late war fighter (which its not).
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How does climb = acceleration? (Assuming you feel like playing Professor Aerodynamic Theory for me today hahaha)
I thought acceleration was how fast an aircraft gained speed in level flight... I guess I am just stuck thinking in ground automobile terms?
Sorry if this is a dumb question!
Sustained climb rate and acceleration are both about the amount of excess thrust the plane is producing, so you can generally use climb rates to compare relative acceleration across the altitude spectrum.
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Sustained climb rate and acceleration are both about the amount of excess thrust the plane is producing, so you can generally use climb rates to compare relative acceleration across the altitude spectrum.
Aha... so, basically, the amount of thrust over and above what is needed to keep a plane aloft = acceleration which can also be expressed as sustained climb rate?
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P51D vs G2/G6/F4/E4
If the pony "loses" the fight he messed up somewhere....surprised actually that many on here thought differently then that.
My favorite fights....historical P51 vs TA152 20K alt
MA match ups Mossy vs Yak9U...N1K vs 109g2
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P51D vs G2/G6/F4/E4
If the pony "loses" the fight he messed up somewhere....surprised actually that many on here thought differently then that.
(http://i620.photobucket.com/albums/tt283/Rotedria/WWII-Advice-Dog-Get-down-Incoming-flame-war.jpg)
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P51D vs G2/G6/F4/E4
If the pony "loses" the fight he messed up somewhere....surprised actually that many on here thought differently then that.
:lol :lol Oh my, good joke. Your a comedian :lol :lol
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:lol :lol Oh my, good joke. Your a comedian :lol :lol
To the DA! :airplane:
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P51D vs G2/G6/F4/E4
If the pony "loses" the fight he messed up somewhere....surprised actually that many on here thought differently then that.
In a running contest or turning ?
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To the DA! :airplane:
Cool beans, your pony will be scrap pixels in 4 turns
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Cool beans, your pony will be scrap pixels in 4 turns
I meant you and Junky. :angel:
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Cool beans, your pony will be scrap pixels in 4 turns
I don't know, 5 p51s picking 1 g2/g6 with an alt adv... my money is on the p51s.... 1v1 though.. and no 'extending' 109 owns!
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He isnt running. Just "extending"...
... to find 10 buddies a sector away and come back at 20k
:aok
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I meant you and Junky. :angel:
Touché Titan, nice dodge :D
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I don't know, 5 p51s picking 1 g2/g6 with an alt adv... my money is on the p51s.... 1v1 though.. and no 'extending' 109 owns!
+100000"
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Spitfires.
Best aircraft that has ever graced the skies. No matter how many technical debates we all have, it will still be sexier than any other WW2 aircraft.
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Spitfires.
Best aircraft that has ever graced the skies. No matter how many technical debates we all have, it will still be sexier than any other WW2 aircraft.
It is pretty sexy :)
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So we are talking about straight turn fights.....ah rgr then of course the 109 would win, unless your at 310 MPH.
But in the MA Co E Co Alt.....P51 shouldn't die against a G2,G6, F4....not saying the 109s should die either.
Now lets all get off Junky's ankle, I'm sorry I didn't think this was about a legit duel.
Oh and I wouldn't mind doing the duels, would be fun trying to out turn 109s with a P51 lol
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P51 is going to get owned by just about every 109 except the Emil. And I'll prove it when I duel Wing47.
Hell, I had a fight against Strah's Emil in a P51D and barely won in a turn fight (yea I turn fight in a P51). P51 just cannot handle speeds below 100mph without stalling into the ground.
I'll be happy to be proven wrong if wing47 can kill me in a 109.
when and where
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So we are talking about straight turn fights.....ah rgr then of course the 109 would win, unless your at 310 MPH.
But in the MA Co E Co Alt.....P51 shouldn't die against a G2,G6, F4....not saying the 109s should die either.
Now lets all get off Junky's ankle, I'm sorry I didn't think this was about a legit duel.
Oh and I wouldn't mind doing the duels, would be fun trying to out turn 109s with a P51 lol
No ones on your ankle... People were just stating facts.
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Just had a duel with Latrobe in a 109g2 and Ki84, I am amazed how dead even both planes are, whether vertical or turn fight both planes are dead even.
I tried everything in the playbook to break loose, eventually he lost sight of me or we'd both simply run out of gas.
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Dont have illusions, the ki84 is better in the tight, uphill scissors.
Latrobe is something fantastic in the Gustav.
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Dont have illusions, the ki84 is better in the tight, uphill scissors.
Latrobe is something fantastic in the Gustav.
honestly back of my mind i was out of E and waiting for the Ho, did not expect an epic fight out of it.
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The only fair matchup is the emil vs. two spits from any year.
Truth.
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No ones on your ankle... People were just stating facts.
Facts aye? The Germans won WW2, by your thinking since I said they won this is a fact?.?.?.?.?.
Last night I tested the idea of a P51D turning with a G2 against Rud3Boi, right off the merge the P51 had a huge advantage since it has better high speed handles(Merge alt 5K, well below P51s preforming alt). I used flaps only when needed to get around on stalls and ended up getting a few shot ops per a fight(only ran 2) As the fights decreased in speed of course the 109 started handle and out climbing the pony very easily....but in the first fight I had enough time to sneak away and get good separation.....which I didn't utilize because I wasnt going to waste Ru3es time, turned back in for more fighting time.
Second fight we got in a downward spiral with eachother after merge, Pony was owning but I can't close....Ru3e did the right thing and pulled vertical once we were slow, I made a "Mistake" (notice the mistake) and got my ride too slow pulling for a shot.
I stand by my original statement, Pony shouldn't lose fight....but will possibly not get kill on 109 either(if said sticks are equal in flight ability)
Nice flights Ru3e :salute
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Facts aye? The Germans won WW2, by your thinking since I said they won this is a fact?.?.?.?.?.
Last night I tested the idea of a P51D turning with a G2 against Rud3Boi, right off the merge the P51 had a huge advantage since it has better high speed handles(Merge alt 5K, well below P51s preforming alt). I used flaps only when needed to get around on stalls and ended up getting a few shot ops per a fight(only ran 2) As the fights decreased in speed of course the 109 started handle and out climbing the pony very easily....but in the first fight I had enough time to sneak away and get good separation.....which I didn't utilize because I wasnt going to waste Ru3es time, turned back in for more fighting time.
Second fight we got in a downward spiral with eachother after merge, Pony was owning but I can't close....Ru3e did the right thing and pulled vertical once we were slow, I made a "Mistake" (notice the mistake) and got my ride too slow pulling for a shot.
I stand by my original statement, Pony shouldn't lose fight....but will possibly not get kill on 109 either(if said sticks are equal in flight ability)
Nice flights Ru3e :salute
Re: P51 Vs 109
« Reply #3 on: August 04, 2010, 09:35:06 AM »
Quote from: Vendetta on August 02, 2010, 03:37:18 PM
I have looked at the charts of the P51. but has any one ever known that the deceleration rate for the 51 is crap ? In real life the P51 could hold it's speed in a tight turn way better than a 109. AND every one talks about climb, but it seems to be 2 different types of climb, zoom climb and vertical. in my opinion the vertical climb and the deceleration rate in a turn to me is not what the Pony should be. NOW with the 109 every thing is the opposite. IT holds it speed way to well both fast and low speeds and can vertical climb almost as good as a Mark 9
Vendetta, Be prepaired to back up your claims with some data. Right now everything that you've quoted as being fact is Anecdotal at best. Do you have some actual test data and some examples of what you're describing? Lets start with this one first. "In real life the P51 could hold it's speed in a tight turn way better than a 109" What does that mean? Do you mean that the 51 is bleeding speed faster than the 109 in a tight turn? If that's the case you might need to consider the following. Anecdotally speaking the 109 should be able to out turn the 51 in "what you call a tight turn" So we will get into an area called Best Corner Speed. Do you understand what best corner speed is in the 51? Do you know what corner speed actually is?
Here is the definition so that you can really understand the concept.
Corner speed is an important factor of maximum turn performance. Corner speed is defined as the minimum airspeed at which the maximum allowable g can be generated. At corner speed,the aircraft can attain its maximum turn rate. For our purposes, 280 KIAS is the T-2C cornerspeed. Below this speed, if you attempt to pull more "G", the aircraft will enter buffet and stall at its aerodynamic limit. This results in an increase in the turn radius and a decrease in the turnrate. On the other hand, if the aircraft is maneuvered above the corner speed, the max allowable"G" becomes the limiting factor. The excess airspeed (above corner speed) will result in a turnradius increase and a turn rate decrease.Knowing and flying the corner speed and the appropriate AOAs will give the fighter the most bang for the buck: the best turn performance for the minimum amount of energy loss
Quote from: Vendetta on August 02, 2010, 03:37:18 PM
to better explain: About the P-51 stalling much sooner in a turning fight, not true.
The fact is the 51s low speed handling is going to be worse that the 109. The 51 was one of the first planes to have a laminar flow wing and very high wing loading. The 51 will stall out before the 109. The 109 also has high lift devices (leading edge slats) which open and low speeds. Notice where they are. They are in front of the Ailerons which provide roll at very low airspeeds and critical AOA. The 51 was designed to fight very high and with a lot of speed. The 109 was adapted over time from the 30s when Dog Fighting was important and later modified to defend and kill Bombers. Late war on, the 109 was considered to be inferior in a lot of ways to the 51. In game that's still pretty consistant with what was true in RL.
Quote from: Vendetta on August 02, 2010, 03:37:18 PM
Our museum flies P-51Ds and Spanish Casas (Me 109G with a Merlin). The Casa loses energy quickly in hard turns. The P-51D doesn't.
Again this is a very Anecdotal statment. I suspect this is someone telling you this and you don't have any real data. If you do please share.
Quote from: Vendetta on August 02, 2010, 03:37:18 PM
In flight, the P-51D will easily turn with the Casa and close except at very low speeds, and low speeds are not included in combat maneuvers. So ... if the speed DID get very low, then yes, the P-51D will stall a few mph sooner. The message is clear to the Mustang pilot, don't turn with a 109 at 140 mph or less. Mustang pilots learned that early.
The only real advantage the Casa has is sustained rate of climb. In a zoom climb, the P-51D is better.
the 109 should have it's turn acceleration lowered.
Again no data... So far I don't see any evidence to support this claim. Here is another way to put it. Initially the 51 should be able to turn with the 109 however in a prolonged sustained turn if each pilot was flying Best Corner Speed the 109 will out turn the 51. For me that's how it is in game. The 51 will reach it's stall quicker than the 109 and lose the turn fight. The key is understanding the concept of Best Corner Speed.
A second quote:
History Channel's Dogfights is not a reliable source of information. Also, I think you are under a strange assumption that horsepower alone determines energy retention in turns. If you are thinking about acceleration, it might be better to look at a figure like the power to weight ratio. The Bf-109 is so much lighter than the P-51 that it will obviously be able to accelerate better. A good climb rate is a given for a light plane with a powerful engine like the Bf-109.
The people who say that the Bf-109 turns better are what you could call "experts." People like Mark Hanna. I'm sure you know who that is. He flew that REAL restored Bf-109G-10, not a Spanish faux 109 that has a different, weaker engine and a lot of extra drag from its modified airframe, cowling, etc. With him having flown the P-51s so many times, I trust his opinion when he says that the Bf-109G could easily outturn the P-51 at low and medium speeds (typical dogfight speeds). He noted that because of the P-51's speed, it should be able to stay safe from the Bf-109 by keeping its speed up, extending, and refusing to dogfight, where the G-10 would have an advantage.
To me its pretty clear, unless a 51 enters a dogfight with abundant of speed (i.e diving from 5k above) it has no chance to beat a 109g.
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Thanks butcher. Junky is being hard headed. Its all in good fun here. Im not talking about runnjng or extending.. In a straight fight without any extending the 109 will win..
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Thanks butcher. Junky is being hard headed. Its all in good fun here. Im not talking about runnjng or extending.. In a straight fight without any extending the 109 will win..
So what you are saying is that the better TnB fighter will win against the better BnZ fighter, as long as they play by some unrealistic ruleset.
(http://www.majhost.com/gallery/1337W422102/zig/reaction_cool_story_bro_chair_flip.gif)
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So what you are saying is that the better TnB fighter will win against the better BnZ fighter, as long as they play by some unrealistic ruleset.
(http://www.majhost.com/gallery/1337W422102/zig/reaction_cool_story_bro_chair_flip.gif)
Yes sir. If the pony just ran and BnZed he would win most likely.
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Yes sir. If the pony just ran and BnZed he would win most likely.
I don't think the pony would win, but most likely result in a long stalemate. The 109 would be able to regain 'e' fast enough that the pony wouldn't be able to work it out of e and thus win. The only way the pony could win is if there were multiple not allowing the 109 to regain e.
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Yes sir. If the pony just ran and BnZed he would win most likely.
If there is any "ran" in the P-51's tactics the BnZ is going to be entirely based on either the Bf109 pilot messing up or the P-51 pilot making a hard shot as the running P-51 won't be draining the E from the Bf109 due to excessive timidity.
Also, the "run" tactic suddenly falls apart if the Bf109 turns out to be a Bf109K-4.
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If there is any "ran" in the P-51's tactics the BnZ is going to be entirely based on either the Bf109 pilot messing up or the P-51 pilot making a hard shot as the running P-51 won't be draining the E from the Bf109 due to excessive timidity.
Also, the "run" tactic suddenly falls apart if the Bf109 turns out to be a Bf109K-4.
This is essentially what I said... But often the 'run' tactic works for p51s as the k4 doesn't want to chase the p15 for 2 sectors as the speed difference isn't that great. This is only true because the k4 pilot must get in very close to have any shot of hitting the p51 with the 30.
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If there is any "ran" in the P-51's tactics the BnZ is going to be entirely based on either the Bf109 pilot messing up or the P-51 pilot making a hard shot as the running P-51 won't be draining the E from the Bf109 due to excessive timidity.
This is what I am getting at... I think some people believe that BnZ and "running" are synonymous... perhaps hearkening from the days of "Run, Stang!" calls attempting to shorten a fight by making a decent BnZ'r do something stupid.... now evolved into "OMG, ITS A PONYD AND ITS FAST = RUNNING".
As far as E-conservation/regeneration, in relation to an opponent now extending away after a BnZ run, what's the best "next move" in a 109-F4? Climb toward opponent, maintain course and build speed?
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As far as E-conservation/regeneration, in relation to an opponent now extending away after a BnZ run, what's the best "next move" in a 109-F4? Climb toward opponent, maintain course and build speed?
No fly away and flat, regain speed and create separation.
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No fly away and flat, regain speed and create separation.
Okay... so, at this point I have regained some E, I have more time to anticipate/react to the opponents next move, any other reason (assuming either of those are correct)
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Okay... so, at this point I have regained some E, I have more time to anticipate/react to the opponents next move, any other reason (assuming either of those are correct)
Also, by creating separation, the diving plane will have to come for you. The farther he must fly straight to get to you, the more 'e' he loses, until he reaches his top speed at flying level.
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I don't think the pony would win, but most likely result in a long stalemate. The 109 would be able to regain 'e' fast enough that the pony wouldn't be able to work it out of e and thus win. The only way the pony could win is if there were multiple not allowing the 109 to regain e.
Exactly what I was saying.....one or the other is going to do something stupid for the other to win in a MA fight
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Okay... so, at this point I have regained some E, I have more time to anticipate/react to the opponents next move, any other reason (assuming either of those are correct)
The faster you are the more E you have to burn in a hard maneuver to dodge the P-51's attack. If the P-51 is aggressive in its BnZ attack you will have less E to use to dodge each time and eventually your dodges will become less effective due to insufficient E making it much easier to hit you.
The key thing is to realize that while it may take the Bf109F-4 quite a bit of time to get from 300 to 350, it doesn't take it all that long to get from 250 to 300 and if you are giving it that much time between passes it will always get back to 300 and have enough E to dodge.
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The faster you are the more E you have to burn in a hard maneuver to dodge the P-51's attack. If the P-51 is aggressive in its BnZ attack you will have less E to use to dodge each time and eventually your dodges will become less effective due to insufficient E making it much easier to hit you.
The key thing is to realize that while it may take the Bf109F-4 quite a bit of time to get from 300 to 350, it doesn't take it all that long to get from 250 to 300 and if you are giving it that much time between passes it will always get back to 300 and have enough E to dodge.
Okay, definitely learning here. (And I am usually in the 109F-4, not the stang hehe)
Thank you all for the clarifications/information!